It never ends

[drifter777]

I've also been curious about who he thinks she is now, as opposed to all those years ago. She obviously made some tragic errors back then. But is she really still that person? Another poster wisely pointed out that you told her she "is" narcissistic, selfish, etc but it definitely seems more appropriate to say that she "was" that person. Is she still today? I obviously don't know her but I do tend to give her some props for staying the course with you. Hell, just yesterday's argument sounded pretty brutal. And it doesn't sound like your sex life has been poor (with the unfortunate exception of mind movies). What's your thought on what kind of wife she's been over the ensuing years/decades?

Narcissistic tendencies don't just go away. Today it usually takes the form of trying to manipulate our kids or me to do what she wants so SHE doesn't worry so much. That is her primary motivation - their well being is secondary. She knows this but she cannot change it. And it causes her misery because our kids are grown adults and are difficult to manipulate causing her even more stress. She tries to manipulate me but I now recognize it and call her on it when it happens. She is better because she understands but it's not going to ever just be gone. She has a level of OCD that contributes to it as well.

 

Yeah, she is not the same person now and shows probably as much remorse as she is capable of showing. She can now easily say that what she did was horrible and she'd never think of doing it again. The difference is that now she knows it would run HER life so it is her best interest to be a good wife. Back then she wasn't so sure if I was who she wanted. At some point within the first year or so after we got back together she decided that I was a good bet as far as a provider and a father and a lover. It doesn't sound romantic because real life is not very romantic in truth.

 

Sex was always good and got better over time. Yeah, some positions I would not do because I know she did it with OM but it became "normal" to avoid them. The past year sex has really dried up (no pun intended) and there are medical reasons and lots of stress so I'm giving her a pass for now. I haven't changed but I can live with much less nookie than when I was younger.

 

Great feedback by everyone today - thanks.

[drifter777]

I have to wonder if her comment about her honesty being the problem wasn't actually just something said out of frustration.

 

He's been beaten her with the same stick for 3 decades.

 

She's been taking the beating for 10,950 days.

 

My god at some point the beatings have to stop for everyone's happiness and sanity.

You don't understand this and you never will. At least stop making things up and then pontificating about them. You embarrass yourself.

[Rainbowlove]

You don't understand this and you never will. At least stop making things up and then pontificating about them. You embarrass yourself.

 

I'm not embarrassed at all.

 

I'm not making anything up.

 

If the affair happened 3 decades ago, you've been angry for 30 years.

 

That's your story, not mine.

 

Pontificating? That's a first.

[BetrayedH]

I have to wonder if her comment about her honesty being the problem wasn't actually just something said out of frustration.

 

He's been beaten her with the same stick for 3 decades.

 

She's been taking the beating for 10,950 days.

 

My god at some point the beatings have to stop for everyone's happiness and sanity.

 

Maybe she just said it out of frustration. Or maybe the truth came out under duress. I did note that she said it twice. A frustrated thought or not, I think it's one that needs to be confronted.

 

As for the beatings needing to stop, I think she has as much control over that as drifter. I've been reading drifter's posts for 4 years now and the sense that I get is that she's a rugsweeper. In my view, that approach fails and this is a classic example. If she really wanted this to go better, she could have an impact. Instead she foolishly wishes she hadn't said anything and wants it to go away.

Edited March 20, 2015 by BetrayedH

[Bittersweetie]

Thanks for the feedback - all of you. I will only add that, once again, the feedback from BS's and WS's is just as different and personally slanted as ever. I guess that's the way it will always be, it just makes me shake my head. I could probably count the times I've posted on a thread started by a BW on one hand. I can't know what it's like to be a woman betrayed by her husband so I don't even try.

 

I'm sorry for posting on your thread Drifter. You are right, I can't know what it's like to be in your position. I've read your posts for years now and I just hope for you some healing, for yourself, and for your grandson. Best of luck.

[Mrs. John Adams]

drifter.....i am a fww and i am totally on your side. I don't feel one bit sorry for your wife. I have been there and done that. I know sometimes the light doesn't go off...sometimes we just don't get it....you love her...despite what she did...and you want to stay with her....but you just want her to GET IT....and there is something there that tells you she doesn't. and Damn it....why is it so hard?

I wish there was some magic formula that you could give to all of us who have cheated that gave us instant remorse and understanding. It takes some of us longer than others....and some just never succeed.

 

My heart breaks for you my friend....i hear my own story in yours....and it is a hard damn road to travel.

 

MY best to you...

[Rainbowlove]

Maybe she just said it out of frustration. Or maybe the truth came out under duress. I did note that she said it twice. A frustrated thought or not, I think it's one that needs to be confronted.

 

As for the beatings needing to stop, I think she has as much control over that as drifter. I've been reading drifter's posts for 4 years now and the sense that I get is that she's a rugsweeper. In my view, that approach fails and this is a classic example. If she really wanted this to go better, she could have an impact. Instead she foolishly wishes she hadn't said anything and wants it to go away.

 

I don't completely disagree with you.

 

Except, there's little she can do to change what was done or said. I doubt any further remorse from her at this stage in the game would make one ounce of difference. There's is nothing she can say or do that would help him find peace and forgiveness.

 

It's up to him to find it. 30 years of waiting for someone else to a deliver a "miracle" is just insanity to me.

 

They both have the power to change their future moving forward. For their own happiness and for their grandson's.

 

Whether or not they argue in front of him and whether or not he calls his wife a piece of sh it in front of him or not doesn't matter.

 

Is this rekationship loving and kind in front of this child? Or does it reflect a relationship that has run its course a long time ago? And one full of rage, resentment, disgust and emotional discontent?

 

I don't know. I don't live there.

 

That's for the OP to know in his heart of hearts.

 

I wish for him peace and forgiveness. No one should live an eternity hanging on to such bitterness.

 

And no one should spend an eternity trying to find a "miracle" to help their partner get to peace.

[81West]

Thank you for this thoughtful post. So much of it applies directly to my situation it is almost like you are my counselor. For a fleeting moment that thought actually passed my mind.

 

I'm not your counselor. Just an IT geek out of Canada. Thanks for your thanks. It's always really nice when people take a minute to tell you they've connected with something.

 

You know, what you experienced was truly traumatic. A genuine emotional trauma that changed who you are and has left a thus far indelible mark on your patterns of thought. The cheating was bad enough for a young man with limited experience and tools to deal with great stress, but your wife also threw you out of your own home to make room for another man almost literally overnight. The shocking mental and emotional assault of that can't be underestimated.

 

Some of us just are not wired to deal efficiently or effectively with emotional trauma. Instead we play the same thoughts and heartaches over and over trying to make sense of them. It can become like a skipping record in our heads - deeply grooved and stuck in a narrow and fruitless cycle. We know it in other contexts as post-traumatic stress.

 

About 15 years ago I had a very perceptive counselor recognize that I was suffering post traumatic stress due to my son's father completely and immediately abandoning me when I told him I was pregnant. My son was about 6 years old by then and I was successfully raising him on my own, but I had carried the grief and shame of that abandonment the whole time. I privately cried about it almost daily. She treated me at the time with a newish approach called EMDR which is specifically designed to target thoughts and emotions that have become stuck post trauma. It was truly, for me, like a miracle. I had ONE session and I never, ever cried again about that circumstance of my life. The automatic wash of emotions I had become accustomed to when my mind would helplessly drift to the situation had lost so much of their power that I never again shed a single tear over it. Years later I was eventually able to recognize that I once again needed this approach for a different type of extreme abandonment that I experienced about 8 years ago. So it's been a huge help to me twice.

 

I would really encourage you to give "EMDR" and the name of your city a quick google, and give it some thought. You can get results really very quickly because it works at least in part at a physiological brain level responsible for organizing memories that is out of our conscious control. What it might do for you is strip some of the deep, persistent, choking emotion from your history. And that might help more than anything because it will put you on an even playing field with your wife for the first time in decades. She simply can't reach a level of deep emotion over the events because they were barely if at all experienced that way for her in the first place. She didn't experience any trauma, only a short lived and relatively quickly resolved fear that she would lose you. So if she can't come to your level, maybe with EMDR you can fairly painlessly get closer to hers. Your conversations might have a chance then of providing something much closer to resolution than they ever have. You don't ever have to forget, and you don't EVER have to minimize what happened to you as a young husband and father, but you may be able to have some new control over how it affects you going forward. If my experience is any guide, a pervasive, persistent and debilitating pattern of thoughts truly can be put in their proper context as events and memories of the past that shape me but no longer cripple me.

Edited March 20, 2015 by 81West

[ladydesigner]

I would really encourage you to give "EMDR" and the name of your city a quick google, and give it some thought. You can get results really very quickly because it works at least in part at a physiological brain level responsible for organizing memories that is out of our conscious control. What it might do for you is strip some of the deep, persistent, choking emotion from your history. And that might help more than anything because it will put you on an even playing field with your wife for the first time in decades. She simply can't reach a level of deep emotion over the events because they were barely if at all experienced that way for her in the first place. She didn't experience any trauma, only a short lived and relatively quickly resolved fear that she would lose you. So if she can't come to your level, maybe with EMDR you can fairly painlessly get closer to hers. Your conversations might have a chance then of providing something much closer to resolution than they ever have. You don't ever have to forget, and you don't EVER have to minimize what happened to you as a young husband and father, but you may be able to have some new control over how it affects you going forward. If my experience is any guide, a pervasive, persistent and debilitating pattern of thoughts truly can be put in their proper context as events and memories of the past that shape me but no longer cripple me.

 

Yes this is so true! I honestly think this is what I am always expecting from my NPD WS but he doesn't have deep emotion, never has. Since Dday I have slowly been uncovering WHO my WH really is and whether I can stay married to someone like this. He displays little to no empathy over my pain from his A's.

 

I have heard a lot of great things about EMDR therapy. Great advice!

[Hope Shimmers]

I will only add that, once again, the feedback from BS's and WS's is just as different and personally slanted as ever. I guess that's the way it will always be, it just makes me shake my head. I could probably count the times I've posted on a thread started by a BW on one hand. I can't know what it's like to be a woman betrayed by her husband so I don't even try.

 

I guess I need to apologize for posting to your thread too. I didn't realize you didn't want to hear from former OW.

 

I was not an OW by choice and I would never be one again. I was a BS but never went through what you did, and never meant to profess to even begin to understand your pain. For what it's worth, I was not taking your wife's side at all.

 

Best of luck to you.

[drifter777]

I guess I need to apologize for posting to your thread too. I didn't realize you didn't want to hear from former OW.

 

I was not an OW by choice and I would never be one again. I was a BS but never went through what you did, and never meant to profess to even begin to understand your pain. For what it's worth, I was not taking your wife's side at all.

 

Best of luck to you.

I didn't mean this in the spirit of how some of you are taking it. I can be a clumsy writer and wasn't clear. The difference in tone of BS vs. WS on all of these threads is pretty wide and always predictable. My example was an admission that I don't feel I can advise a BW because women and men deal with infidelity differently (in general). Its not meant as a knock on anyone else and I shouldn't have used it.

[Noirek]

I didn't mean this in the spirit of how some of you are taking it. I can be a clumsy writer and wasn't clear. The difference in tone of BS vs. WS on all of these threads is pretty wide and always predictable. My example was an admission that I don't feel I can advise a BW because women and men deal with infidelity differently (in general). Its not meant as a knock on anyone else and I shouldn't have used it.

 

It depends what your looking for. Do you want sympathy, pity or validation or do you want different persepctives from different people?

 

Personally, I am on neither of your sides. Just like you, your wife could free herself from this toxic marriage but doesn't. So by staying she says your hatred, or at the very least, detest, is okay. She has not put down any boundaries for herself or anything so she is allowing this to continue.

 

I do think it is unrealistic to expect her to give you a magic answer at this point. I didn't realize it was 30 years ago this happened. Did you know once something becomes a memory it no longer is fact? Our memories can be molded and shaped when it comes to events and nothing is ever remembered 100% like it actually happened. Lots of scientific studies on that one. Of course we all think we remember things exactly how they happened when we can remember... And no one is going to tell us otherwise.

 

The last thing I noticed was your comment about forgiving her when you can say yourself "i would have done the same."

 

That is a lofty goal and impossible. You are not your wife. You do not think, feel or process things like her. I am not her either. And while sometimes I can understand why someone did something I still can disagree and know I would never do the same thing in the same situation because I am a different person. When I was in my teens something was done to me by a family member. I didn't have to forgive that person and I never felt obligated to. But I got tired of being a victim. And for me holding on to the anger and not forgiving him kept me there. When he apologized whole heartedly I laughed to myself that he thought it would make any difference. There was nothing he could do to make amends. Nothing. But I didn't like bitter me. And so I worked on forgiving him. I opened up to the idea. I exercised it. And then I did. And the freedom I felt over it was amazing.

 

I am not telling you this to forgive. Because just like me no one can tell you to that. You'll do it on your own time and when you want to. But to illistrate the point that I know I would never ever do what he did. And what he did is neither right or acceptable. But I still did. And I don't regret it one minute because while I will always have been a victim, I am no longer a victim.

[81West]

It depends what your looking for. Do you want sympathy, pity or validation or do you want different persepctives from different people?

 

<...snipped>

 

 

I think everybody honestly seeking support appreciates different perspectives, but there is also the problem of self-referential biases. Because people can be in very vulnerable and emotionally labile states on LS we all need to be as ruthlessly self aware as possible when we post. That is how I read the OP's initial point. Not as a criticism of any person or position in particular, but as an observation that people often take predictable positions based on their own life experiences, and those positions aren't always the right fit for a poster's situation. If contributing posters can't perceive or filter out their own biases well, it is up to the reader to do so, and that can be hard when you're in a vulnerable place.

Edited March 21, 2015 by 81West

[Tayla]

Did you know once something becomes a memory it no longer is fact? Our memories can be molded and shaped when it comes to events and nothing is ever remembered 100% like it actually happened. Lots of scientific studies on that one. Of course we all think we remember things exactly how they happened when we can remember... .

 

so if i remember the very moment i gave birth to my son, then its not a fact? he really wasnt born? or the memory of the moment I lost my mom? she really didnt pass away, ???? alwighty then! so glad I read that past history actions are not facts. my mom is really alive somewhere and my son doesnt exist because my memory of having him is no longer a fact. anyways the Op seems to have valid memories that are factual and are there for a reason.

[Noirek]

so if i remember the very moment i gave birth to my son, then its not a fact? he really wasnt born? or the memory of the moment I lost my mom? she really didnt pass away, ???? alwighty then! so glad I read that past history actions are not facts. my mom is really alive somewhere and my son doesnt exist because my memory of having him is no longer a fact. anyways the Op seems to have valid memories that are factual and are there for a reason.

 

No, you remember the moment but you do not remember the mom exactly as it happened. Your pain, emotions and thoughts are no longer fact based. Your memories are coloured by your perception and personality. So by exaggerating and adding to what I said you missed the point. Memories are not reliable. Your son was born and that is fact. But your actually memory of it not 100% what happened. The details and such. Some people actually have completely false memories but that is on the extreme end of things. My point was that the chances of his wife having an accurate memory of three years ago is slim to none. Especially if she has wanted nothing more than to forget.

[Noirek]

I think everybody honestly seeking support appreciates different perspectives, but there is also the problem of self-referential biases. Because people can be in very vulnerable and emotionally labile states on LS we all need to be as ruthlessly self aware as possible when we post. That is how I read the OP's initial point. Not as a criticism of any person or position in particular, but as an observation that people often take predictable positions based on their own life experiences, and those positions aren't always the right fit for a poster's situation. If contributing posters can't perceive or filter out their own biases well, it is up to the reader to do so, and that can be hard when you're in a vulnerable place.

 

i disagree. He looks to label us and throw out our povs. He appears to not want to actually do or change anything in his life. And there have been BS who don't agree with how he is living? Are they posting out of "bias"? Whenever someone says something that is different or challangeing is it "bias" or is it merely a different pov? His point read "cheaters are all the same and have nothing of value to say to me". why? Who knows. But, he is a man 30 years past dday. I don't think he needs to be treated like a person who just found out. Do you?

[Furious]

Drifter

 

I get the feeling that you're looking for something deeper from your wife, that if you keep searching to the "why" and she gets it, then staying with her after all these years was not in vain.

 

You were young and blindsided as a husband and father. Maybe you've never forgiven yourself for not walking away at the time. I doubt there is a single human being who has no regrets and wished for a do over in hindsight.

 

It's a though you see your wife's potential at a higher level than she can ever give you and you have a higher standard of what love means.

 

I think that the turmoil you feel is that of settling, that your ideals and hope of a deeper connection is not attainable.

 

It seems that you resist the reality of your marriage and are just as frustrated with your wife as you are with your self esteem.

 

I get the feeling you've been stoic and strong but are craving love and tenderness, that it'd be nice for a change to be cared for than always doing the right thing and being the responsible one.

 

Your anger stems from hurt, and your hurt has never really been acknowledged.

[violet1]

I didn't mean this in the spirit of how some of you are taking it. I can be a clumsy writer and wasn't clear. The difference in tone of BS vs. WS on all of these threads is pretty wide and always predictable. My example was an admission that I don't feel I can advise a BW because women and men deal with infidelity differently (in general). Its not meant as a knock on anyone else and I shouldn't have used it.

How come every time different perspectives come up, labels are always thrown around? My perspective has nothing to do with the fact that I have cheated. Holding onto so much pain, anger and resentment for many years is not healthy. Period. This hasn't been just a few years Drifter. Many decades of pain and anger is pure torture on yourself. At least that's how I imagine it would be in my head.

 

 

I've experienced a lot of pain in my life as well. I've been cheated on long before I ever cheated. I understand your pain more than you would like to think. There was something that happened (not infidelity related) many years that nearly destroyed me. I held onto the pain for a good ten years. It got so bad I even become severely depressed and suicidal. This situation literally consumed me. I couldn't stand feeling the pain anymore. It made me so damn miserable. I had to let it go or there was no way I could continue living. Letting go was the only way I could free myself from the torture.

 

 

The point that I failed miserably in trying to make is that you are the one who has control of your emotions. You can't change what your wife has done and neither can she. You have to accept what's happened in the past. You don't have to like it, but you have to accept it in order to let go. No answer she has will take your pain away. It's YOU who has to do it. Resentment is poison. By holding onto it you're hurting yourself. Your posts are filled with so much pain and anger. Believe it or not, I want you to be happy. You deserve that, but you are the keeper to your own happiness.

 

 

I wish you peace. ?

[JohnAdams]

Drifter our stories are different, they all are, but, we do share some similarities. We married young. 19 and 17, my wife had an affair when she was young, I am over 30 years out from the affair. Our grandchildren lived with us for 5 years after our daughters divorce.

 

For 30 years I did not feel that I received what I needed from my wife. I did not know how to explain to her what I needed. I was not even sure what I needed. I felt she was sorry, but, I never really felt she showed true remorse. I asked many questions. Especially early on, it was why, why, why? She would answer, but the answers never satisfied me. How could she seem to want to just move on when it was killing me? She should know what to do, shouldn't she? How could she say some of the things she said, didn't she know how I felt?

 

I lived for 30 years, for the most part happy, but, the triggers, especially around the anniversary of D Day. She felt I was punishing her, but, I needed something she was not giving me. The trouble was I really did not know what, or, how she was supposed to give it to me. I think I was at point where I thought she would never get it. Either live with it or divorce. Like you, I have so much invested, did I really want to throw it all away? Plus, I am a logical person, even if I divorced, could I really ever get over it? I think I reached a point where I thought I would rather live with the hand I was dealt rather than try to start over.

 

A couple of years ago on a site similar to this, I posted a thread, my one any only thread titled "What is Remorse?". Sure, I had the usual divorce the B.... but, I had some wise posters that said, what kind of wife has she been since the affair? She has demonstrated her remorse by being a faithful loving wife ever since her affair. She demonstrated by actions not words. It made me think, yes, perhaps she does not know the right words either. I finally got the nerve to tell her about the site and about my thread. I also sent her the link to a book on healing your spouse after an affair. She was receptive. Her heart was open to doing whatever it took to heal me. We have reached a place of happiness that we have never been.

 

I do not know where your wife's heart is? Does she want to heal you but does not know what to do? Will she reach the ahhhaa moment finally? Maybe not, and I understand if you can live that way the rest of your life. I also know sometime it is good to vent to an anonymous forum. Who else can you tell this crap? I pray that you and your wife reach a place of peace and harmony.

[TrustedthenBusted]

I wasted a lot of time trying to understand the "why".

 

My wife wasted a lot of time trying to craft answer I wouldn't hate.

 

She finally said she had no idea why she would do something that stupid.

 

And as unsatisfying as that answer was, it was the truth. And the truth is the best thing we can hope for, whether it scratches it itch or not.

 

Drifter, you've been waiting for years for her to say something that will take away the pain. It simply doesn't happen that way. You have to accept that NO answer is a good answer, but the truth will have to do. And then YOU need to let it go.

 

You can blame her for her choices for a while. But now you are blaming her for your own.

[DKT3]

I think that a BH will look for a reason to stay after infidelity. Most of us don't find one that our ego's can live with so we bounce. In this case you never found one yet you stayed, waiting and hoping that she would show you something, a reason. Since you haven't got one your resentment has grown which leads to you needing MORE.

 

At some point you just have to stop looking for what you aren't getting, something you can't even explain or really understand. Like John Adams stated what has she given you over that time. The truth is she can say nothing to heal you, she can do nothing to heal you. You can't wait around for her to heal you, you have to heal yourself. For me it took divorce, and as bad as it sounds I had to experience other women. It was doing that time that I really came to understand what it was that she gave me, what I needed from her and what it would take to heal myself. Your WW can't do that for you, she can help with her actions.

 

In my personal opinion she has taken this for 30 years, in reading as much as I have about infidelity I would say its not common for a WS to be beatten over the head with their affair for this period of time without wanting to make it better. She is doing her part, time for you to do yours.

 

Do you want to heal and move past this?

[xxoo]

She has demonstrated her remorse by being a faithful loving wife ever since her affair. She demonstrated by actions not words. It made me think, yes, perhaps she does not know the right words either.

 

 

Yes, this is what I've been trying to get at. 30 years of being a loving, sexual, loyal wife IS more evidence of remorse than any words.

 

In a way, I think this event has you both "stuck" at those young ages to deal with it. She's forced to try to explain why she did something that she can now not understand why she ever did. When I think back to things I did at those ages, I can't explain "why". My reasoning was immature, and at the time it made sense! Now, of course, it makes no sense at all. And the trauma scarred you at that young age, never healing properly, and affects your view of her regardless of how she's matured.

 

It sounds like you've always seen your decision to stay as out of your hands. You stayed for your children, and now you stay for the grandchild. It was never an option to leave. Thinking this way, you avoid making the choice to stay. But with that choice comes power.

 

Shift your thinking: you always had the power to leave. People leave all the time. You CHOOSE to stay, for many good reasons. And you made a good choice. You did what was right for your family, and your wife remained faithful, loving, and sexual for the next 30 years. That was a good life decision! Shifting your mindset regarding power may help shift your view of your wife and marriage.

[elaine567]

I agree he chose to stay and he also choosing to beat his wife with a stick every other day over her infidelity 30 years ago!!! ...and she lets him because she is brainwashed into accepting it.

From an outside perspective this is pure madness.

Sorry to be so blunt.

 

What sort of life is this poor grandchild going to have with this huge elephant in the living room trampling over normality every day.

If you cannot sort this out for yourselves, then sort it out for the kid.

YOU may think your children and your grandchild weren't/aren't affected by this prolonged mutual suffering you and your wife have put yourselves through for 30 long years, but that is just fooling yourselves.

Time to stop.

[dichotomy]

Its been "only" ten years for me, but there are a few shared elements from your WW and decisions that are similar to mine. There are differences too. But do understand much of what you feel with your wife. The low or delayed regret, the lack of honesty and why's. I ended up having to come to my own conclusions on whys.

 

Your dedication and sacrifice for you children, and now grandchild, are admirable and I respect you for it, even if you regret the situation you are in. I hope your grandchild tells you he/she loves and hugs you every day for it.

[ComingInHot]

Drifter777, my heart hurts for you as I can relate to what you have gone through.

Our outcomes are different and I still don't know which outcome takes more strength ( I am thinking yours though).

 

You need peace Drifter777, even if you only for short periods of time. You still need some peace in your heart or all of what you are still holding onto will destroy you. What good will you be to those you love if you are so broken and physically ill from all of this?

 

It will Never end until you decide to have it ended and move on. You have got all the answers you will ever get.

 

It is Never enough until you decide that what she has done and given is 'enough'. However long you decide to re-punish her for her cheating is up to you but know it affects You Too.

 

X made it up to me. He really did. It's just for other reasons that I couldn't do it. It was me and my deciding that I wanted a life of kindness and not one of being bullied.

 

Just take care of yourself Drifter777.

Take moments to be at peace and enjoy life while you are still able.

Remember that between these moments that memories and life beat you down are some pretty good times as well.

Please don't miss out on those too!

 

CiH*