It never ends

[Mrs. John Adams]

No one needs to beat a remorseful ww. She sees the triggers.....she sees the pain in his face...for thirty years....she wants to help but she doesn't know how.

He is not mean to her...but he hurts...and she is responsible for that pain....so she hurts too.

 

 

And then when she truly understands remorse...she lives to heal him.

 

I am sorry...I disagree with many of you here. This is not about beating up drifter...this is about healing him...and folks...he needs her to do that.

 

 

He needs to know she understands what she has done...he needs to know she feels the pain she has caused him. Why? So he then knows she will never do it again.

 

Reconciliation is difficult at best....and both people have to learn to trust again...to forgive...and to heal.

 

 

Drifter needs to know that his wife gets it...and until he feels she will never do it again...healing will not come. This is why he asks her why? Because if he has no reason....how does he know she won't do it again?

[Hope Shimmers]

Drifter needs to know that his wife gets it...and until he feels she will never do it again...healing will not come. This is why he asks her why? Because if he has no reason....how does he know she won't do it again?

 

But, with all due respect, what was your reason?

 

That was the point I was trying to make when you first came here. You couldn't give him a reason either, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. And I pointed out exactly what you just pointed out - how then, can he know you won't do it again?

 

So doesn't that lead right back to what everyone is saying? That he already has the true answer, and it becomes an issue of his needing to accept it (or not) in order to move on one way or another.

[fellini]

Although I haven't spent 30 years in reconciliation with my WW, nor have I spent even two years in it, and nearly two years immersed in the world of LoveShack: and it is a world unto itself - and perhaps sometimes the world of LS is carried over into the world of the living.

 

One of the consequeneces of this I have experienced is heavy influence that particular concepts around infidelity that get tossed around a lot in LS tend to enter my conscisousness and thus my world and eventually begin to shape my expectations of how I have been, am, and will think about things that happen to me. In essence, I begin to apply LS as a benchmark in the progress and possibility of my WW. And I feel that sometimes this might be done inappropriately (due to the specifics of the case) and impossible (because talk in a forum is just that, talk, and the theory and the practice do not always fit.

 

I too have been searching for this "why". And I too have been looking at reconciliation. And I think where this matters the most in this discussion is in that I agree with some others here, that what we want in an abstract way, has almost no real possibility in a practical way.

 

For this reason I see value in, like BadKarma, leaving LS for extended breaks, because I think that while it feels enormously useful, it may well be the real barrier to peace of mind: everytime yet another story emerges and the concepts of remorse, owning it, 100% of the heavy lifting, truth, etc., among many other concepts that recycle here, I have sensed that my immersion in LS is causing me to reopen these issues with my WW, or merely in my head, to demand even more from them from my WW or myself. It must be exhausting for both of us.

 

It's a bit of a schrodinger cat though isn't it. Unless I leave LS for a long period of time, I cannot know how much my visits to this world are helping or hindering my progress.

 

I say this of course, in the spirit of those of us BS's that got a level of remorse, a level of commitment back in our marriages that was sufficient at one time to allow us to move forward. And I think sometimes later, in LS, we up the ante from interchanging with other BS's stories.

 

Really Drifter, I don't think any of us can help with your answer, especially if after 30 years you could not extract it, and she cannot put it into words.

 

What I am now planning on doing, and in fact this strategy comes from my WW because if I am going to stay with her, I also need that she wants to stay with me - I am going to work hard at sifting the need for the WHY to what others have mentioned: looking at the behaviours of HOW things are now. And try to leave the logical explanations of illogical actions in the ruins of our previous marriage.

 

Good luck with you on your journey Drifter.

[jbrent890]

No one needs to beat a remorseful ww. She sees the triggers.....she sees the pain in his face...for thirty years....she wants to help but she doesn't know how.

He is not mean to her...but he hurts...and she is responsible for that pain....so she hurts too.

 

 

And then when she truly understands remorse...she lives to heal him.

 

I am sorry...I disagree with many of you here. This is not about beating up drifter...this is about healing him...and folks...he needs her to do that.

 

 

He needs to know she understands what she has done...he needs to know she feels the pain she has caused him. Why? So he then knows she will never do it again.

 

Reconciliation is difficult at best....and both people have to learn to trust again...to forgive...and to heal.

 

 

Drifter needs to know that his wife gets it...and until he feels she will never do it again...healing will not come. This is why he asks her why? Because if he has no reason....how does he know she won't do it again?

 

I agree with this and I appreciate the fact that this is coming from a fWW. I'm sure a lot will disagree, but I'm not sensing that she is truly remorseful. The big red flag was when she said that she regrets being honest with him. That indicates to me that she really just wants all of this to go away. The argument in her defense that is raising my eyebrows is the fact that she has stayed with him for 30 years through this. Yeah, but people stay in marriages for a variety of different reasons. Just because she has stayed does not mean that truly gets it. Also, I don't think she was brainwashed into staying. I think she stayed out of guilt and the fact that she didn't want to be reason her family broke up. Maybe drifter can enlighten us more, but not once has he mentioned what she has specifically done besides staying and answering questions. The sense I'm getting from her is that she has forgiven herself for cheating without her husbands forgiveness and it sounds like this happened very quickly. From what I noticed, when this occurs, the cheater doesn't feel that they need to try anymore, which is why I usually give waywards that say I have forgiven myself without their spouses forgivness a lot of flack.

[fellini]

I disagree that one can not happen without the other. In fact I can envision perfectly how a WS cannot help his/her BS to gain forgiveness if the WS has not forgiven oneself. One forgives oneself in order to be better able to understand and acknowledge and empathize with the other. They are not mutally inclusive concepts of forgiveness, imo.

 

 

From what I noticed, when this occurs, the cheater doesn't feel that they need to try anymore, which is why I usually give waywards that say I have forgiven myself without their spouses forgivness a lot of flack.

[Hope Shimmers]

The big red flag was when she said that she regrets being honest with him. That indicates to me that she really just wants all of this to go away.

 

If all this had happened 30 years ago to me and I was still being hit with it on a regular albeit occasional basis, I would want it all to go away too. Even if I had been truly remorseful. ESPECIALLY if I had been truly remorseful and honest. It would make me wonder why honesty was the best approach at all.

 

So I don't think you can tell one thing about her remorse based on that comment. I would think 30 years of being a good wife, mother, and grandmother would trump everything.

[jbrent890]

I disagree that one can not happen without the other. In fact I can envision perfectly how a WS cannot help his/her BS to gain forgiveness if the WS has not forgiven oneself. One forgives oneself in order to be better able to understand and acknowledge and empathize with the other. They are not mutally inclusive concepts of forgiveness, imo.

 

I guess this is where you and I are going to disagree then my man. I find it very self serving and a bit egotistical to say that you forgiving yourself (the cheater, not you haha) is above the forgivness of the person you wronged. Would you accept that same response from a muderer or someone who stole your life fortune?

[jbrent890]

If all this had happened 30 years ago to me and I was still being hit with it on a regular albeit occasional basis, I would want it all to go away too. Even if I had been truly remorseful. ESPECIALLY if I had been truly remorseful and honest. It would make me wonder why honesty was the best approach at all.

 

So I don't think you can tell one thing about her remorse based on that comment. I would think 30 years of being a good wife, mother, and grandmother would trump everything.

 

But that's just it, from what drifter is saying, he doesn't feel that she has been truly remourful. One trend that I have noticed about some cheaters is that they feel staying in the marriage is enough. Again, I really want drifter to tell us if she has done more to help him heal then what he has mentioned. Personally, I think there is more to remorse then staying and answering questions. I may be wrong, but it doesn't really sound like she has done that much to help him heal besides those two things.

[minimariah]

It would make me wonder why honesty was the best approach at all.

 

but this is the problem - people who are honest just because they think it will benefit them and their current situation, who use that honesty as a manipulation tactic in order to get their spouse to forgive them. like... - why was i honest when i gained nothing with it? - this is never the "right" kind of honesty.

 

you should be honest because it's the right thing to do and because you respect your spouse that much that you KNOW that they have the right to know the truth so they can make informed choices.

 

of course, it's a problem when the other side tells you they forgave you but continues to resent & humiliate you every chance they get. but you know when does that usually happen? when they feel & know that your remorse wasn't really honest (people usually don't regret the A at all, they regret getting caught & coming out with the entire mess).

 

So I don't think you can tell one thing about her remorse based on that comment.

 

sure you can.

in her mind - her being honest was the problem... not the fact that she had an A. you can tell a lot based on that one comment, actually.

 

in fact, it's pretty obvious she has little to no true remorse about the A from pretty much every OP's on this thread.

 

I would think 30 years of being a good wife, mother, and grandmother would trump everything.

 

it would, for sure. but the OP's wife wasn't a "good" wife for 30 years, she is a complete failure when it comes to her marriage. harsh, but... it's the truth.

[Hope Shimmers]

But that's just it, from what drifter is saying, he doesn't feel that she has been truly remourful. One trend that I have noticed about some cheaters is that they feel staying in the marriage is enough. Again, I really want drifter to tell us if she has done more to help him heal then what he has mentioned. Personally, I think there is more to remorse then staying and answering questions. I may be wrong, but it doesn't really sound like she has done that much to help him heal besides those two things.

 

Okay. Maybe I misread his previous post then.

 

I thought he said that she was honest, and a loving wife, sexual, loyal, and remorseful but the issue was really that she couldn't give him a good reason why. If all that is true, I'm not sure what else you can expect of someone. But only he knows if he feels she is being truly remorseful.

[Hope Shimmers]

but this is the problem - people who are honest just because they think it will benefit them and their current situation, who use that honesty as a manipulation tactic in order to get their spouse to forgive them. like... - why was i honest when i gained nothing with it? - this is never the "right" kind of honesty.

 

you should be honest because it's the right thing to do and because you respect your spouse that much that you KNOW that they have the right to know the truth so they can make informed choices.

 

of course, it's a problem when the other side tells you they forgave you but continues to resent & humiliate you every chance they get. but you know when does that usually happen? when they feel & know that your remorse wasn't really honest (people usually don't regret the A at all, they regret getting caught & coming out with the entire mess).

 

 

 

sure you can.

in her mind - her being honest was the problem... not the fact that she had an A. you can tell a lot based on that one comment, actually.

 

in fact, it's pretty obvious she has little to no true remorse about the A from pretty much every OP's on this thread.

 

 

 

it would, for sure. but the OP's wife wasn't a "good" wife for 30 years, she is a complete failure when it comes to her marriage. harsh, but... it's the truth.

 

I'm not sure how you know from forum posts why she was honest and what's in her mind. Or that she's a "complete failure" in her marriage. Wow, I envy your telepathic abilities.

 

But whatever.

 

I was just trying to help the OP see other perspectives because I like him, even though I am a "cheater". I'll bow out now.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Folks...as bad as you do not want it to...you deal with it the rest of your lives.

 

We are 32 years out...and it still hurts...and we still deal with it.

 

If you have some magic formula...please enlighten us.

 

Infidelity is a part of your lives...the rest of your life.

 

The hurt is less..the triggers a fewer...but you still think about it...and you deal with it on a daily basis.

 

I am sorry...it is a fact.

[minimariah]

Wow, I envy your telepathic abilities.

 

you should envy my reading comprehension abilities, really. because that's all i'm doing - reading the OP's posts & believing his words to be true.

 

he wants answers & she won't give him that because she, apparently, cannot remember (?!) - won't even answer to question about WHY she did what she did in the 1st place. then she snaps at him & basically says that she regrets being honest and that her honesty is what ruined the much of their marriage (?! instead of her having an A to begin with) because... i guess, if she wasn't honest - she wouldn't have to deal with his sadness, desperation and questions.

 

you don't have to be a telepath in order to understand what hises behind that statement. like, i could give you ten more examples from the OP's post where it's obvious that her #1 priority is herself and her own feelings.

 

no disrespect to anyone... i really mean that. but if you weren't cheated on, you probably don't know what it's like. you can ASSUME what it's like... buz nothing more than that. so i understand the OP being annoyed with anyone other than the BS/BH answering to his thread.

Edited March 21, 2015 by minimariah

[Hope Shimmers]

you should envy my reading comprehension abilities, really. because that's all i'm doing - reading the OP's posts & believing his words to be true.

 

People read what they want into posts. They are just forum posts. You can't "know" anything from them. Not you, and not me either. My point was exactly that.

 

no disrespect to anyone... i really mean that. but if you weren't cheated on, you probably don't know what it's like. you can ASSUME what it's like... buz nothing more than that. so i understand the OP being annoyed with anyone other than the BS/BH answering to his thread.

 

Last time I checked, anyone could post on any thread. Certainly plenty of BSs post on the OW forum regularly.

 

For what it's worth, I have been cheated on. Once in a marriage and twice in 2 different engagements - at least. So it would be nice if some people would stop lumping others into boxes and making assumptions.

 

Good luck OP.

[minimariah]

People read what they want into posts. They are just forum posts. You can't "know" anything from them. Not you, and not me either. My point was exactly that.

 

but you can - which was MY point.

of course you don't KNOW these people but some things are obvious from the OP's descriptions.

 

So it would be nice if some people would stop lumping others into boxes and making assumptions.

 

then why did you box yourself as a "cheater"?

you've been cheated on & you cheated but you labeled yourself as a "cheater" only - i find that interesting.

[Noirek]

I pity both of them but not one over the other. They both choose to live like this. She isn't a victim and neither is the OP. My guess is they are two selfish or self entitled people like we all are. One behaved in a terrible way 30 years ago. The other has held that over her head for 30 years. Resigning himself to this being his life. He is no different than me or anyone else on here who makes excuse after excuse for not doing anything to make a difference in his life. He is so busy pointing his finger at her that he doesn't take true ownership and realize the finger should be pointinf at himself. It is very likely though she is not here to post her side that her finger is also pointed at him instead of herself.

 

Two severely damaged people who should not be living together.

 

And nothing in these posts show that it is his fear of being betrayed again that pushes this. Trust isn't the problem it seems but rather what has already happened.

[Hope Shimmers]

but you can - which was MY point.

of course you don't KNOW these people but some things are obvious from the OP's descriptions.

 

Obvious to you.

 

then why did you box yourself as a "cheater"?

you've been cheated on & you cheated but you labeled yourself as a "cheater" only - i find that interesting.

 

Lots of people here understand and have experienced more than just one "box". Frankly I don't label myself at all - thus the quotation marks I used around the term. If you want to know my story you can read it - this thread isn't about me. Please move on, thank you.

[fellini]

There we go comparing murderers with infidelity again.

 

The thing is, my man, I never said putting one ABOVE the other. Read my post more carefully.

 

When you find the part where I said that forgiveness from the BS is less, and less important, let me know.

 

 

 

I guess this is where you and I are going to disagree then my man. I find it very self serving and a bit egotistical to say that you forgiving yourself (the cheater, dnot you haha) is above the forgivness of the person you wronged. Would you accept that same response from a muderer or someone who stole your life fortune?

[Lion Heart]

Dear Drifter,

 

I read more of your thread today. I understand on more profound level what situation you are in now. I know your morals will not allow you to leave your GS because the "wolves" on many levels will devour any chances he has of a reasonable life in this world.

 

I respect you so much for this.

This alone is a MAJOR sacrifice.

By this and your decision to return after the 180 means that you have appeared to have sacrificed DECADES of your life for others, at least in your private life.

 

It appears you are wrangling with the following feelings:

* frustration (pure and unadulterated)

* deep regret

* servitude for the sake of others

* resentment? Not sure here but it crossed my mind.

* injustice.

 

Maybe you could add others but I'm not you, I've only attempted to glean these from your posts.

 

I was relieved to read you had forgiven yourself for revoking your 180.

 

I will give you an analogy that comes to mind from my life. I had multiple great losses / stressors in my life in a period of 8mths. Around 22y ago. (grandmother died who was my mother figure, baby DD extremely ill, H cheated, marraige ended, father died). By the time my father died I was completely overwhelmed with grief. In fact I put a mind strategy in place because if I tried to process my father's death AT THAT TIME? I would've entirely lost the plot, gone under. The strategy I used was I pretended he was still alive. For years. About 5y later I decided to accept and grieve the loss of my father. Sounds far fetched but I had no choice. Too much. So much so that I couldn't properly grieve EACH thing separately. I couldn't give my relationship with my father the appropriate grief it deserved. On its own.

 

Drifter in your situation RIGHT NOW you are working, parenting a young child, feeling your aging, dealing with TOO MUCH! SO MUCH that it overwhelms you and you still feel so angry about. There ARE things in your past you haven't dealt with.

 

My proposition is this: IMHO during IC you need to go back to the things in your past that need to be dealt with. You are not escaping from your past because some things just haven't been appropriately dealt with and LEFT in your past.

 

Sure I'm no psych at all but this is for YOU and YOUR LIFE right NOW.

 

If your IC cannot give you multiple strategies to employ RIGHT now then you need alternative strategies to get the work done asap. There are practises that CAN heal you. Seek them. Complete them. Do WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO HEAL YOURSELF! YOU are WORTH it! All by yourself you are worth healing. This was SOME ONE ELSES actions that you are carrying as a burden. It's actually not your burden. You've not done shameful things.

 

If you want to carry on a married life (sex etc) then that's certainly your right.

 

I have NO IDEA the pressure you must feel but I've tried to imagine only how I'd feel in your place.

 

I would most definitely get my own cave within the house. All the gadgets and toys imaginable and start to segment sections of my life for myself. We have "Men's Sheds" here that you can join. Men hang out with all sorts of wood work or metal work projects for themselves and others on the go. Some men just go to hang out, drink coffee and tell jokes. They laugh!

 

You need to start pursuing your OWN interests independent of anyone else's needs. I'm wondering if you've ever done this. You may have been so "other" focussed that you're now totally lost in others.

 

You will find a way out of this but you have to passionately WANT to heal. You have to persevere.

 

I feel for you. I want the best you can get out of your life. It's nowhere near over. Get yourself some pleasure.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

* ten characters.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Lion Heart

[turnera]

For those that suggest counseling, I started counseling maybe 20 years ago. After about 3 or 4 years I stopped. Then I started again about 10 years ago and still go today. I have an experienced professional that I talk to about all of my stresses every week.

Why isn't SHE going to counseling WITH you?

[beach]

Dear Drifter,

 

I read more of your thread today. I understand on more profound level what situation you are in now. I know your morals will not allow you to leave your GS because the "wolves" on many levels will devour any chances he has of a reasonable life in this world.

 

I respect you so much for this.

This alone is a MAJOR sacrifice.

By this and your decision to return after the 180 means that you have appeared to have sacrificed DECADES of your life for others, at least in your private life.

 

It appears you are wrangling with the following feelings:

* frustration (pure and unadulterated)

* deep regret

* servitude for the sake of others

* resentment? Not sure here but it crossed my mind.

* injustice.

 

Maybe you could add others but I'm not you, I've only attempted to glean these from your posts.

 

I was relieved to read you had forgiven yourself for revoking your 180.

 

I will give you an analogy that comes to mind from my life. I had multiple great losses / stressors in my life in a period of 8mths. Around 22y ago. (grandmother died who was my mother figure, baby DD extremely ill, H cheated, marraige ended, father died). By the time my father died I was completely overwhelmed with grief. In fact I put a mind strategy in place because if I tried to process my father's death AT THAT TIME? I would've entirely lost the plot, gone under. The strategy I used was I pretended he was still alive. For years. About 5y later I decided to accept and grieve the loss of my father. Sounds far fetched but I had no choice. Too much. So much so that I couldn't properly grieve EACH thing separately. I couldn't give my relationship with my father the appropriate grief it deserved. On its own.

 

Drifter in your situation RIGHT NOW you are working, parenting a young child, feeling your aging, dealing with TOO MUCH! SO MUCH that it overwhelms you and you still feel so angry about. There ARE things in your past you haven't dealt with.

 

My proposition is this: IMHO during IC you need to go back to the things in your past that need to be dealt with. You are not escaping from your past because some things just haven't been appropriately dealt with and LEFT in your past.

 

Sure I'm no psych at all but this is for YOU and YOUR LIFE right NOW.

 

If your IC cannot give you multiple strategies to employ RIGHT now then you need alternative strategies to get the work done asap. There are practises that CAN heal you. Seek them. Complete them. Do WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO HEAL YOURSELF! YOU are WORTH it! All by yourself you are worth healing. This was SOME ONE ELSES actions that you are carrying as a burden. It's actually not your burden. You've not done shameful things.

 

If you want to carry on a married life (sex etc) then that's certainly your right.

 

I have NO IDEA the pressure you must feel but I've tried to imagine only how I'd feel in your place.

 

I would most definitely get my own cave within the house. All the gadgets and toys imaginable and start to segment sections of my life for myself. We have "Men's Sheds" here that you can join. Men hang out with all sorts of wood work or metal work projects for themselves and others on the go. Some men just go to hang out, drink coffee and tell jokes. They laugh!

 

You need to start pursuing your OWN interests independent of anyone else's needs. I'm wondering if you've ever done this. You may have been so "other" focussed that you're now totally lost in others.

 

You will find a way out of this but you have to passionately WANT to heal. You have to persevere.

 

I feel for you. I want the best you can get out of your life. It's nowhere near over. Get yourself some pleasure.

 

Lion Heart.

 

I agree completely!

 

For my healing - I had to face all my fears, losses and trauma. In order to be happy on my own- I had to work through all of my crap to the OTHER side of it ALL! Not just part of it - all of it.

 

My resentments - I let them go - and I became a much different person for doing that hard work.

 

I hope you will too.

[beach]

And your wife not remembering - that's just a convenience that's designed to suit her.

 

It's mean that she does it and I hope you say so to her.

[MuddyFootprints]

It is possible she's scared, not mean.

 

They need a safe place to deal with this together. Nobody feels safe in this relationship.

[Lion Heart]

Please don't think that by what I'm about to say is in anyway my attempt to demean the trauma anyone feels.

Trauma is trauma. If it's felt, then it is. Simple as that.

 

Trauma can be inflicted in a moment.

Trauma can be felt deeply by one person because another person's actions.

Trauma can be felt for years. Forever for some.

 

What is FAR from simple are the methods of RESILIENCE after trauma that we employ. At first we employ reactionary methods of coping. After a certain amount of grieving, which we MUST do, we begin to discover and employ other strategies.

 

Our psyches already WANT to heal. Immediately.

As do our bodies want to heal after physical trauma. Immediately.

 

If we are not healing on either level, then we're plainly just NOT receiving the correct treatment that corresponds with OUR INDIVIDUAL needs. Whatever they are.

 

People ask me ALL THE FREAKIN TIME "how do you cope....?."

"How could you have gotten past this or that?"

 

I honestly think that my coping AND my rejuvenation skills were learnt early in life. Thank Goodness for books!

 

My childhood was quite horrific in many ways. Almost daily beatings, poverty, homeless at times, etc. Psycho mother was jailed when I was 37 when she threatened violence and my newborn twins. NC (took me a while!) With her and brought more trauma by 39 adults in my family choosing NC with me.

:-(

 

My family's obsession with World War texts I think served me well.

I always asked "How could people GO ON and live after their whole family died?" Even as a little girl my G Grandfather sat me on his lap and regaled stories of survival from WW1. I was 7 when he passed.

 

I was in AWE of the stories I read from then until forever.

 

People DO SURVIVE trauma. It certainly helps if we can ever make sense of the trauma but sometimes it's pure senselessness!

 

What do WE do now?

WE have no choice but to LIVE the very best life we can in SPITE of the trauma we experienced. I thank God every day that I haven't lost a child through death. This is my baseline.

 

Everything above that ^^^ I can work with.

 

When you change your perspective it DOES change your life.

 

When you decide ENOUGH IS ENOUGH then you will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to recover, rejuvenate and fly.

It's in our nature. Don't hold back nature. Work with it.

 

All my very best for your continued healing. IMO you're almost there!

 

Lion Heart.