It never ends

[flowergirl14]

Have you ever had a discussion about divorce? What it would look like? You know my ws shows little remorse. Quite often we talk about divorcing. We aren't threatning it to each other. Just getting the dialogue going. Ive found that my wh is not that opposed to divorce. Im the one hanging on to this marriage. Is your ww all in? Just there for the grandson? Doesnt want to start over? Also have you asked her how she feels about the fact that you havent forgiven her? There maybe some answers in these questions. Just a thought.

[Lion Heart]

Drifter!

 

I am SO sorry you're in this state (calmed down somewhat I hope now) but also in this situation.

 

It feels ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! I know because I feel EXACTLY the same way. Not same situation. The same way.

 

I get exactly the same responses.

 

WE WANT MORE!

 

But we also wanted more respect, more love, more forgiveness, more compassion. These people are INCAPABLE of giving "more". It's like we're living with a brainless twit! I know!

 

WE WOULD know exactly why we did anything in our lives.

We wouldn't and haven't cheated. WE have morals. We have defined characters which are SO challenged with people like this. I'm even going so far to say IMHO they are less intelligent (no forward thinking etc). The more they have is in MORE selfish, greedy, narcissistic etc etc.

 

Boy I had to delete!

 

My POINT IS THIS: We are NEVER going to get the answers we want because there are NO good reasons, NO justifications,

NOTHING they could say that shows ANY depth of thought.

 

Some cheaters call an A "a mistake". An AFFAIR is NOT "a mistake". A "mistake" is when you DO something you didn't MEAN to do. THEY MEANT TO DO IT BECAUSE THEY WILLFULLY DID IT!

 

The plain and simple truth of the matter is that they WANTED to, so they DID. They wanted some cheap thrills. Wanted those thrills while we remained faithful (because G** forbid we EVER shock them by having an A when they trusted US completely - eww no). They didn't REALLY want to hurt us but 'meh' it's YOU hurt, not them.

 

That's the predicament WE are in. We NEED them to know this pain but they never ever will. Not even if we went against our own morals and HAD an affair now, cheaters are just not DEEP enough to feel the same pain. They're very shallow individuals indeed. They may "grow up" and change but it looks like your WW and my WH are too old to grow up now!

 

We are both beating a dead horse / cow / pig whatever.

 

Right now in our situations, our integrity and values are SO challenged BECAUSE we are married to a person with no integrity and few values.

 

If I could leave right now, without napalming a whole family, I would. I think you would too. I was going to do the whole napalm thing and still might need to BUT for today I'm choosing to stay. It's unbearable sometimes.

 

I don't think we are expecting miracles any more? Those miracles would include true remorse, KNOWING through WSs words AND actions that they will do WHAT EVER it takes to heal us. Knowing. That's the biggy. If they did that! Then! We will never know anything for sure about them again.

 

Lion Heart.

[Mr. Lucky]

Drifter, I feel a chilling sense of irony as I read your post because, despite my urging, my xWS would never discuss the details. And that's what led to our divorce.

 

But, after reading your thoughts, I can't help but wonder what if she had? Whether or not to know is truly a Sophie's choice, both options are equally damning...

 

Mr. Lucky

[MuddyFootprints]

I don't remember what your thoughts or feelings are on counselling, but it sounds like you both need a safe place to learn to regain each other's trust in communicating.

 

You are angry, but this seething venom that you are spewing when you don't get the answers that you want is scary and abusive.

 

You need to be willing to learn how to grow through this as a couple or start figuring out how to separate your assets and new custody arrangements for your grandchild.

 

I'm terribly concerned that you are going to blow a gasket.

[dental]

There is no both. Stop making excuses, stop dodging, a man can take only so much, make a decision.

[happyman64]

Drifter, Have you ever met with an attorney to get a picture of what your life would be like with a divorce?

 

An attorney could help you understand what custody of your grandson would like as well as what your wife would be entitled to if you divorced her.

 

Maybe that conversation could help you understand what your possible future might look like.

[stillmind]

To be honest I think holding on to all this rage and hate for 30 years is as bad as the cheating. I would rather be cheated on than hated and berated by my own husband for 30 years. Let it go, man. Find some peace. If you can't let the cheating go let the marriage go.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I don't think Drifter is hateful and berating to his wife. He said they seldom even discuss it anymore.

 

I think he has a right to ask questions that have never been answered. I think he has every right to expect the truth.

 

Anything less....is rug sweeping is it not?

 

His wife after all these years has never given him satisfaction.....

 

Reconciliation is not easy...and he has given his best effort for a very long time...in hopes that someday his questions might be answered.

 

His wife is still not giving him what he needs. He either has to come to a place of acceptance that she may never be able to give him the answers or remorse and he lives his life in the exact place he is now...or he divorces her.

 

Not easy when you have invested so many years into a relationship.

 

My own DH waited thirty years to see true remorse....it can happen....it just depends on how long you might be willing to wait.

[Confused48]

3 years is very fresh still. Over ten something has to change. At least most people would want it to. Would you want to be still asking the same questions and calling your husband names over seven years from now? Would you want to be married to someone you still felt like you had to do this to? Would you want to still not care about his feelings over seven years from now? It is having the same arguement over and over again with no progress for more than a decade. You may have 0 empathy for a wayward in this situation but I have to wonder about both of their reasons for staying on this ride for so very long. Not just the OP but also his wife.

 

Right I see what you are saying. No I could not live like this forever I can barely tolerate it now.

 

To be honest I think holding on to all this rage and hate for 30 years is as bad as the cheating. I would rather be cheated on than hated and berated by my own husband for 30 years. Let it go, man. Find some peace. If you can't let the cheating go let the marriage go.

 

Drifter - what about your WS? What is in it for her? Why did she stay for 30 years? It can't be just the grandson. He is a recent addition. Why did she stay up until then? Surely after you did the 180 and some years had passed, she had to second guess her decision to beg your to take her back, no? If not then that speaks a lot about her commitment to you and love for you post affair. Unless there is more to the story that is.

 

I know I, and other BS in limbo here on LS, we treat our WS in the same manner as you do. I know in my case it is driving my WS away. I don't care. I don't see my WS sticking this out for much longer if something does not change. So why did your WS stay for 30 years?

[Buckeye2]

When I told her how I felt she would have none of it and told me that it was an important "awakening" for her and that it was my problem if I couldn't understand that. I reminded her that I had not dated or screwed anyone since the day we met and that what she did seemed wrong to me. She finally did apologize for hurting me, but didn't see it as cheating and believed it was a positive learning experience for her.

 

The above is the problem. This needs to change.

[Rainbowlove]

 

She was open to talking about it and I got in to many of the unanswered questions that still bother me. Some of them she says she has answered but they are contradictory to other answers and I want the straight out truth. We covered lot of ground to the point where I focused on her motivation for doing it. I told her that what she did was selfish, hurtful, and uncaring. I told her that she should have told me that she wanted to have sex with other guys so we could end the relationship before she actually did it. I told her that the way she broke it to me - like a bomb going off - was cruel and heartless. I told her that she was a selfish narcissistic person who felt entitled to do whatever she wanted to make her happy. The marriage didn't matter, I didn't matter, our family (son) didn't matter.

 

We've covered all of this ground many times before. She responds to some of it with agreement that she didn't care about my feelings on bit. She sticks to her motive of just wanting to have sex with other guys. I tell her how horribly selfish that "reason" actually is and that it demonstrates she is a narcissist. She agrees and tells me that now she realizes all of this and is sorry that she never thought of my feelings. When she says this I immediately start pressing her to tell me what she was thinking. That allowing one of her OM to drive back to our city and tell him he could stay with her goes way past curiosity of how good he was in bed. She begins to get amnesia at this time and I can't get a credible answer to any questions I have along this line. When I ask her why a few weeks later she begged me to come back and swore her love for me she always says that she realized she loved me and couldn't just let me go.

 

Back to today. As I continued to press her as to what her intentions were since, at that time, she killed our marriage and knew it even before she told me about her cheating. She knew that she could never keep it away from me - her brothers/sisters would bust her - and that my reaction would be pretty much what it was. She has trouble answering questions along this line and that really bothers me. These questions are about her motivation for cheating and whether finding out about sex with other men was worth tossing away our marriage. The only thing she ever says is that she didn't see it that way and that she didn't think of me or my feelings at all.

 

I cannot accept this bullsh*t answer.

 

I guess I wonder what could she say that would be acceptable to him?

 

She said she didn't think of him, she said she wanted to have sex with them. She's agreed it was narcissistic and wrong.

 

He wants to know her "true" motivations for cheating and whether or not having sex with OM was worth tossing their marriage away?

 

He sees her motive as selfish and narcissistic and she agrees, but that's not good enough.

 

I wonder what he's looking to hear that will satisfy him?

 

30 years of this is unhealthy for both of them.

[beach]

drifter, your unhappiness just oozes from every word in your posts on LS. It makes me so sad for you.

 

You only have one life. It is admirable that you are staying together for your grandson, but he will still have both of you if you aren't married. I don't understand why she would automatically get custody. I would at least see an attorney and get more information on that.

 

You have been unhappy for all these years. You have plenty of years left - do you really want to spend every day of them like this?

 

This is a situation where I believe divorce would benefit both people.

 

The grandson can be worked out if you two are flexible.

 

You deserve to live and be happy - obviously it's not going that way with your wife and the resentment you have for her lack honesty and remorse.

 

Living with resentment in your life is not living.

 

You can set yourself free of her toxic ways.

[Bittersweetie]

Drifter,

 

I have to agree with 81West in that if your wife cheated when she was very young, she may not have any deep, thoughtful answers to why she did it. I don't think many people, in their early twenties, are all that introspective or totally think through the consequences of their actions. I believe brains are still developing at that age as well. I'm not using that as an excuse, it's not at all, but if you're asking specifically what her thinking was at that time...and she's given you a simplistic answer...that may really be the actual answer. Just a thought.

 

I am sorry you are going through this. I know, from your posts here, you have a lot on your plate and I hope you can find some peace soon.

 

BSW

[MJJean]

Her answers will never be any more satisfying to you, and that makes perfect sense to me. She was a very young woman and mother who had been a married since she was 17 who justified trying out other men during your one and only separation, six years in to what must be close to a 40 year marriage now. What else can her answers be but vague and selfish and immature - that's exactly where she was at at 22 or 23! She can't give you deep and reflective answers from this stage of life because it's all so terribly remote for her and none of it lives in the framework of her present or that of any of the past 30+ years. "I don't know" and "I wanted to sleep with other guys" is probably pretty damn accurate.

 

Exactly!

 

I got pregnant at 17, had my baby at 18, married her father at 19. It was a miserable sham marriage to someone I already borderline hated and ended up loathing. So, I had affairs. He wasn't innocent, he had many affairs, too. I ended the marriage after 5 years at age 24.

 

I'm 39 now. When I speak about that time of my life with my husband or old friends, I honestly can't come up with any better answers than Drifter's wife. I was young. I was foolish. I wanted to have sex with those men and I didn't think about my ex's feelings or consequences or much of anything at all. I can't remember details or what exactly I was thinking at the time. The details, the thoughts, the feelings are all so distant and vague to me.

 

To be honest I think holding on to all this rage and hate for 30 years is as bad as the cheating. I would rather be cheated on than hated and berated by my own husband for 30 years. Let it go, man. Find some peace. If you can't let the cheating go let the marriage go.

 

Yes. Very much, yes!

 

I don't think Drifter is hateful and berating to his wife. He said they seldom even discuss it anymore.

 

I think he has a right to ask questions that have never been answered. I think he has every right to expect the truth.

 

The thing is, the questions he has have been answered. He has gotten the truth. The problem is that the answers he's gotten don't satisfy him. He's unwilling to accept simple truth. He's looking for something much more detailed and much more in depth than his wife is able to give. Not because she doesn't want to or is unwilling to, but because her reasons were simple and there are thoughts and details that didn't cross her mind at the time or that she cannot remember after so many years.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Perhaps you are right...but having been a fww who cheated thirty years ago...I think she is not answering his questions. I think she rug sweeps.

 

And as long as she does this...remorse will not happen.

 

He needs remorse to forgive her. He wants to forgive her or he would not have stayed thirty years.

 

Drifter has not come back to this thread since he started it. Hopefully he will come back soon and clear some things up.

[ladydesigner]

The thing is, the questions he has have been answered. He has gotten the truth. The problem is that the answers he's gotten don't satisfy him. He's unwilling to accept simple truth. He's looking for something much more detailed and much more in depth than his wife is able to give. Not because she doesn't want to or is unwilling to, but because her reasons were simple and there are thoughts and details that didn't cross her mind at the time or that she cannot remember after so many years.

 

Yep this makes total sense because my WH has pretty much answered my questions and they do not satisfy me either, they actually have made me gain little to no respect for my WH. Maybe this is how you feel Drifter. Maybe you have no respect for your WW which leads to these feelings of being not content in the M. I don't know if you have been asked this but have you tried going back to marriage counseling to express your feelings?

[violet1]

Perhaps you are right...but having been a fww who cheated thirty years ago...I think she is not answering his questions. I think she rug sweeps.

 

And as long as she does this...remorse will not happen.

 

He needs remorse to forgive her. He wants to forgive her or he would not have stayed thirty years.

 

Drifter has not come back to this thread since he started it. Hopefully he will come back soon and clear some things up.

Drifter has mentioned many times that they have discussed the affair over and over again. He has also stated she knows how he feels. IMO, I don't think she's rug sweeping. How many times do the same questions need to be asked over and over again? What is going to satisfy him?

 

 

I'm going to sound harsh here and probably get flamed for this, but I don't personally think the OP wants to let go and move on. He chooses to punish her for it instead. Calling her selfish and disgusting 30 years after the fact is a bit much IMO. Especially since HE and HE alone chose to forgive her. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's ego, but something internal is preventing Drifter from moving on. His posts break my heart. Life is way too short to be miserable like he. My sincere apologies if I upset the OP or anyone else. This is just how I personally feel.

[drifter777]

I tend to think that she might be truthful when she says that she didn't think of you at the time. Compartmentalization is normal, no?

 

I get the impressin that you want her answers to make some sort of sense, that there was some logical thought process behind it all. My guess is that you've gotten to the hard core truth - that she did it because she wanted to do it (and probably didn't think she'd get caught).

 

Otherwise, I can do nothing but empathize with you, my friend. I'd have been just as pissed if my wife thought that her honesty was the problem after all these years.

Yes, I'm finally coming to the conclusion - or awakening - that there is no answer to the question "Why?" that will ever satisfy me. I realized that there could be no possible answer that would make me think - "oh, I get it! I don't blame you and I probably would have done it too!". That's what I'm looking for - an answer that makes enough sense to me so I can be at peace with it. So whatever answer I get is insulting and stirs my anger and sadness and makes me feel hopeless.

 

To those that say "it's time to leave" - you don't understand. You can't. I could have divorced her much easier if we were still relatively young. It would have been much easier to co-parent our 3 kids then to even begin to do the same with my grandson. His mother, my daughter, is a drug addict who is actively using heroin and meth. His father still lives with her so is just as active. They live between his mothers house (who can only stand them for a couple days) bartering for a room with a drug friend, or sleeping in the cab of their pickup. My wife and I won custody of him last October. The whole process, including a 3 day trial, cost me around $40k - just to give anyone who thinks it's easy to take someone child away from them a dose of reality. Without the lawyer we would have lost. Period. The system is stacked heavily in favor of the biological parents, and I think that is right. The decree the judge signed included a Residential Schedule that gives both his mom & dad 3 hours of visitation every other week. It must take place with either my wife or I present. If they get clean and can show 36 consecutive months of drug tests to prove it, then they can go back to the judge and ask for a change in the residential schedule. They haven't even take a single test. The only positive thing they have done is to visit him religiously every other week. They haven't missed a visit and they are extremely grateful that we are making a life for him. It sounds odd but the trial - our testimony - opened their eyes. They are changing but I don't know if they will ever be able to care for him again.

 

If my wife and I fought and argued over this routinely then whoever wanted to say that it's not a good environment for him would be right. But even then, what environment would be better? Foster care? We are not young and keeping up with everything he needs is a two-person job. Unless you are over 59 then don't even comment on this because you don't know what you are talking about. And, as I said in the very opening post, I have held off on discussing this in any depth for nearly a year. I judged that I can carry this burden silently for as long as I can. That means if it has to spill out, like yesterday, I will find a time and place that won't affect my grandson. We don't fight about this, I don't "call her names", I don't try to use it for "leverage" in arguments. We live our lives day to day like most people. We are devoted to raising the boy and share in the responsibilities. I've worked hard and we are financially ok. We take vacations as a family and as a couple.

 

I will never forget and therefore never find peace. Forgiveness has to be earned and, so far, she hasn't show me she is remorseful enough. I have no doubt that I am looking for something that isn't there because, well, I'm looking for a miracle. Her attempt to be truthful over the past few years makes it appear, at least to me, that she is not remorseful. She is not a great communicator so after my OP yesterday I went home and we discussed it further (two hours before my grandson got home from school). I was angry and she didn't understand why. She said that, yes, when she did it her motivation was simply to have sex with other guys and end our marriage. She felt she hadn't had enough experience before we married - only two guys & only touchy feely with one of them - and she wanted more. When she got it she found it exciting for a couple weeks. She loved being complemented and fussed over. Of course she says the sex wasn't great - they all lie about this one - and that after a couple weeks she felt empty. She believed that, due to my 180, she had lost me. She thought that if she waited any longer to try to get me back that it would be too late. She was sad that I didn't care enough to fight for her or beg her to let me come home or any of that crap. She lured me into the house when I dropped my son off and then threw herself at me out of desperation. She said it was like I was a balloon floating away and she had to grab the string before I was gone. Most telling about this, for me, is that she told me at that time she wasn't sure she wanted to stay with me "forever". She wanted me so I was still an option. I was the "leader in the clubhouse" but she had to keep her options open. I now accept that I was the plan B because it makes sense from her perspective. I hear truth. If I would have thought this is how she felt back then, I know it would have propelled me right out of the apartment and I would not have looked back. She says that now, looking back, she knows how horribly selfish it was. That not ending our marriage before acting like she was single was a chicken-sh*t & hurtful thing to do. She will always see her side of the story, that she didn't do it to hurt me and that she was just young and stupid. But at the same time she now understand it was wrong but simply didn't look at it that way at the time. I hate this fact. I hate it and it hurts every time she says it or I think about it. Its despicable. And its a truth that I have to find a way to live with to find peace. And if I don't then, well, I'll die without finding that peace.

 

She says that if I had done this to her she would have killed me and gladly lived in prison. BS's - does this sound familiar? She also knows that until it happens to you, you don't have a clue how you really would react. But her empathy now is real and she agrees that what she did tainted our marriage forever. I can feel her fear that I will retaliate by cheating myself someday.

 

For those that suggest counseling, I started counseling maybe 20 years ago. After about 3 or 4 years I stopped. Then I started again about 10 years ago and still go today. I have an experienced professional that I talk to about all of my stresses every week.

 

If I could do it over I would have not come back. Its been way more trouble and pain then it's been worth. I will always advise a BH without children to divorce. For those with kids I'll encourage them to do the hard 180 for themselves and their children. It either gets the marriage back to the point where they can try to reconcile or it finalizes the end. This is what I believe is best because I've lived the other way and it really sucks. And I will remind anyone that the 180 is NOT a strategy - it is a decision to take back your life and take the action that is required to do that. The universe rewards action.

 

Thanks for the feedback - all of you. I will only add that, once again, the feedback from BS's and WS's is just as different and personally slanted as ever. I guess that's the way it will always be, it just makes me shake my head. I could probably count the times I've posted on a thread started by a BW on one hand. I can't know what it's like to be a woman betrayed by her husband so I don't even try.

[drifter777]

I'm so sorry you've been in such turmoil on and off for such a very long time. It's been a shadow over your entire adult life really, and that is a very hard thing to think of somebody else enduring. You have all my empathy.

 

Now you're going to get all my Spock like logic. Her answers will never be any more satisfying to you, and that makes perfect sense to me. She was a very young woman and mother who had been a married since she was 17 who justified trying out other men during your one and only separation, six years in to what must be close to a 40 year marriage now. What else can her answers be but vague and selfish and immature - that's exactly where she was at at 22 or 23! She can't give you deep and reflective answers from this stage of life because it's all so terribly remote for her and none of it lives in the framework of her present or that of any of the past 30+ years. "I don't know" and "I wanted to sleep with other guys" is probably pretty damn accurate.

 

I think you need to find a new way to relate to all the things you feel about those events. Identify your specific feelings and really give them a strong cognitive challenge with those of us who might want to work that with you here on the board. She is incapable of giving you the peace with the past you deserve, so you have to figure out a way to find it yourself. You more than deserve it.

 

What are the strongest feelings that arise when you think of her cheating? Shame maybe? Powerlessness? Fear? I'm guessing here, but if you'd like, identify one or two. And then try to identify the automatic thoughts that underlie the emotion. Like for example shame might contain the thought "I'm not good enough" or "I caused this somehow" etc. And then challenge those thoughts with the real evidence of that time and the last decades and see if they hold up. I bet they won't, not hardly at all.

Thank you for this thoughtful post. So much of it applies directly to my situation it is almost like you are my counselor. For a fleeting moment that thought actually passed my mind.

[coryreply]

Drifter, I'm so sorry you're still going through all of this. Moving forward is not easy, especially when her walls remain up. Do you trust her to not cheat again?

[BetrayedH]

Just today I was having this conversation (about the "why") with my mechanic of all people. He's suffered thru infidelity and is now going thru a divorce. He struggles with depression over it and fails to understand the "why."

 

My point to him was much like we've been discussing here. We will likely never get a satisfactory answer about it. Waywards intentionally compartmentalize any uncomfortable thoughts away. If they really thought about what they were doing, they wouldn't do it. If they were using a lot of thought and reason, they would choose to either fix their marriage or leave it. But they don't want to think about it; they want to pursue their little fantasy and go get that ego stroke. And if they do have to think about it, they use crazy rationalizations with themselves ("He's probably cheating on me anyway" or "What he doesn't know, won't hurt him" or "Everyone deserves to be happy" or "We're probably not going to make it anyway") and none of those have any substance. When you put them up to any scrutiny, they don't stand up.

 

But here you are (understandably so), desperately trying to understand (and forgive) something that she probably intentionally avoided thinking about and just rationalized with such poor justifications that even she can't make it make sense to her, let alone to you some 30 years later. When you add in 81west's comment about her being in her early 20's at the time, it makes even more sense that it's never going to make sense.

 

What was very encouraging for me to read from you is that you've stopped hating yourself for that early decision to back off the 180. Holy crap, that is progress, my friend. I have long believed that you totally needed to cut yourself a break for that decision. You were scrambling without a handbook and opted to save the family after your wife begged for you to return. You had to stop judging yourself with all of that hindsight knowledge.

 

Now what does disturb me is that your wife felt that it was her honesty that was a problem. I'm glad to read that you continued the conversation and that she continued to talk. I actually think that if there's any hope in this situation, it completely relys ON HER HONESTY. And she needs to know that despite the current difficult arguments, her honesty has actually resulted in some real progress for you. You cannot come to accept the truth if you continue to feel that she's lying. She has to be completely straight with you, even if the truthful answer is that she doesn't know.

 

After acceptance would come the potential for forgiveness. I think you have a major philosophical problem with that to begin with but the bigger problem is that her true remorse has to come first. I think you are right that she is not remorseful ENOUGH to have earned that forgiveness. That may still be to come. I guess we'll find out because you're not going anywhere.

[xxoo]

My point to him was much like we've been discussing here. We will likely never get a satisfactory answer about it. Waywards intentionally compartmentalize any uncomfortable thoughts away. If they really thought about what they were doing, they wouldn't do it. If they were using a lot of thought and reason, they would choose to either fix their marriage or leave it. But they don't want to think about it; they want to pursue their little fantasy and go get that ego stroke. And if they do have to think about it, they use crazy rationalizations with themselves ("He's probably cheating on me anyway" or "What he doesn't know, won't hurt him" or "Everyone deserves to be happy" or "We're probably not going to make it anyway") and none of those have any substance. When you put them up to any scrutiny, they don't stand up. .

 

It is a fantasy, and the perceived repercussions are included in that fantasy. Some may even believe that the spouse will "fight" for them, which could be all wrapped up in the fantasy. Or they may have some fantasy of a greater life with the new partner. All folly.

 

Drifter, you've seen the folly and poor decision making of young adults in your children's generation. Obviously your daughter, but I'm sure you've seen much more in your years of parenting, between your own kids and their peers. Try to see your wife at that age being that age. And contrast that with the wife who has been steadfast and loyal and loving, through hard times indeed, standing by you now raising this grandchild. Which person really represents your wife, at core?

 

She made some big mistakes. Many people at those ages make similar mistakes, but the difference is that the marriages generally don't last, and they may go on to be wiser spouses for someone else's benefit. The mistakes she made weren't as horrid as using drugs and losing your own child. She's not evil. She deserves love and appreciation for the person she is. Do you believe that? Can you actively love her so much that you want her to be forgiven? Or are you afraid to love her that much?

[flowergirl14]

Drifter, what you said about the 180 is the best advice on here. I never did this and ultimately let my wh rug sweep and never be held fully accountable. If the ws doesnt step up and do the work..get out! I know..I need to take my own advice.

[BetrayedH]

It is a fantasy, and the perceived repercussions are included in that fantasy. Some may even believe that the spouse will "fight" for them, which could be all wrapped up in the fantasy. Or they may have some fantasy of a greater life with the new partner. All folly.

 

Drifter, you've seen the folly and poor decision making of young adults in your children's generation. Obviously your daughter, but I'm sure you've seen much more in your years of parenting, between your own kids and their peers. Try to see your wife at that age being that age. And contrast that with the wife who has been steadfast and loyal and loving, through hard times indeed, standing by you now raising this grandchild. Which person really represents your wife, at core?

 

She made some big mistakes. Many people at those ages make similar mistakes, but the difference is that the marriages generally don't last, and they may go on to be wiser spouses for someone else's benefit. The mistakes she made weren't as horrid as using drugs and losing your own child. She's not evil. She deserves love and appreciation for the person she is. Do you believe that? Can you actively love her so much that you want her to be forgiven? Or are you afraid to love her that much?

 

I've also been curious about who he thinks she is now, as opposed to all those years ago. She obviously made some tragic errors back then. But is she really still that person? Another poster wisely pointed out that you told her she "is" narcissistic, selfish, etc but it definitely seems more appropriate to say that she "was" that person. Is she still today? I obviously don't know her but I do tend to give her some props for staying the course with you. Hell, just yesterday's argument sounded pretty brutal. And it doesn't sound like your sex life has been poor (with the unfortunate exception of mind movies). What's your thought on what kind of wife she's been over the ensuing years/decades?

[Rainbowlove]

Now what does disturb me is that your wife felt that it was her honesty that was a problem. I'm glad to read that you continued the conversation and that she continued to talk. I actually think that if there's any hope in this situation, it completely relys ON HER HONESTY. And she needs to know that despite the current difficult arguments, her honesty has actually resulted in some real progress for you. You cannot come to accept the truth if you continue to feel that she's lying. She has to be completely straight with you, even if the truthful answer is that she doesn't know.

 

I have to wonder if her comment about her honesty being the problem wasn't actually just something said out of frustration.

 

He's been beaten her with the same stick for 3 decades.

 

She's been taking the beating for 10,950 days.

 

My god at some point the beatings have to stop for everyone's happiness and sanity.