BS's and the Moral High Horse. Or...Wayward Empahy?

[TrustedthenBusted]

Way off.

 

If I wanted to cheat, I could. I'm in great shape, decent looking, make a good amount of money, and have an infinitely flexible work schedule in a job that takes me all over the planet. Don't even need a reason, and could EASILY justify it with the good ol' get out of jail free card.

 

That wasn't my point at all.

 

My point was, that in my heart of hearts, I have admitted to myself that if things were reversed, I probably would have done exactly what my WS did, and for all of the same reasons. And I don't think I was capable of even getting to that place until some real healing had already taken place.

[Selfish]

You can be such a disgusting human being. Next time you feel the urge to post something like this why don't you sit down and have a cup of coffee. Just chill out until the urge to rip someone quiets down.

thanks for the insult. You feel good now? it was actually a joke. Because nobody cares on forums if someone would marry them or forgive them or anything. It really was a pointless insult by badkarma. I have nothing against him or you. I disagree with you a lot (not always) but I am sure you are a real sweetheart in real life.

[katielee]

 

and none of that makes a good marriage. Someone has to say stop at some point and be the better person. Or not, but it would get really messy really fast.

 

 

I'm saying STOP but I'm not a better person. But i want to be a healthy person... We both deserve to be healthy and have a healthy partner.

[TrustedthenBusted]

ack.. my "Way Off" post was directed at Furious, but I forgot to quote him and it's too late to edit.

 

Furious, I can see why you think you smell smoke, but there isn't any.

[Selfish]

I don't believe in revenge affairs to get "even". Though I wonder how many BS's open up to exit affairs.

exit affairs are just the cowards way out of the marriage.

[Selfish]

I'm saying STOP but I'm not a better person. But i want to be a healthy person... We both deserve to be healthy and have a healthy partner.

 

yes, I get that. But I mean being the better person in the situation. Not in the general way.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I don't know if I agree that lying/TT is "natural", I would call it common.

 

If it was natural, than all WS would do it. There are some that fully confess or when caught do not lie.

 

I think it has much to do with ones integrity/self respect....ones moral code.

 

And for those that self-incriminate...the road to self forgiveness starts there. They mitigate or completely full stop the destructive behaviours because of the self damage being done.

 

Would one view those F/WS as trying to regain/hold the "moral high ground" against their past selves?

 

Personally, I have read/heard many FWS speak quite negatively about their past actions. Have used colourful language against those actions/thoughts...who would whole heartedly agree with the harsh assessment of their past.

 

How can this be? How can they agree and it not affect them negatively?

 

Because, they KNOW they are no longer that person. That those views do not speak to who they are now. They don't absorb it as a reflection of the present, they clearly see the difference between the two points of themselves.

 

I guess that is also a great way for others to "see" the internal changes in their WS. Not can they take a verbal berating....more if they can see that the person who hurt the BS deserves/earned those criticisms.

 

It is a difficult road to be the "abuser" to another soul and to want to help heal them. It is not "natural" to open oneself up....having felt every blow previously, to the very person who wielded the blade. It is natural, for self protection to keep ones guard up. It is not unforgiving or punitive.

[Selfish]

I don't know if I agree that lying/TT is "natural", I would call it common.

 

If it was natural, than all WS would do it. There are some that fully confess or when caught do not lie.

 

I think it has much to do with ones integrity/self respect....ones moral code.

 

And for those that self-incriminate...the road to self forgiveness starts there. They mitigate or completely full stop the destructive behaviours because of the self damage being done.

 

Would one view those F/WS as trying to regain/hold the "moral high ground" against their past selves?

 

Personally, I have read/heard many FWS speak quite negatively about their past actions. Have used colourful language against those actions/thoughts...who would whole heartedly agree with the harsh assessment of their past.

 

How can this be? How can they agree and it not affect them negatively?

 

Because, they KNOW they are no longer that person. That those views do not speak to who they are now. They don't absorb it as a reflection of the present, they clearly see the difference between the two points of themselves.

 

I guess that is also a great way for others to "see" the internal changes in their WS. Not can they take a verbal berating....more if they can see that the person who hurt the BS deserves/earned those criticisms.

 

It is a difficult road to be the "abuser" to another soul and to want to help heal them. It is not "natural" to open oneself up....having felt every blow previously, to the very person who wielded the blade. It is natural, for self protection to keep ones guard up. It is not unforgiving or punitive.

 

Actually lying/minimizing in order to protect oneself is a natural instinct in everyone. Lying is a huge part of child development. It is considered a milestone when a young child learns to lie in order to not get in trouble. It is human nature to protect oneself. But like a lot of things we teach our children to not lie but rather face the consequences of their actions. We teach children to go against their "nature" and learn morals and right behaviour.

 

I was fully honest with my H and let me tell you their was nothing "natural" about it. So I understand why so many WS minimize and lie and deny. Being brutally honest, specially after great dishonesty, is probably the most unnatural thing in the world to do. But it is the right thing to do. Rising above the need to self protect and even protect the feelings of our BS I believe gives the best odds to Reconciliation.

[TrustedthenBusted]

**Update. I just ran home for a quickie with FWW. Just thought this thread needed more gratuitous sex.

 

Whew... I'm back at work. So far nobody has noticed that I'm wearing a different shirt. lol.

[badkarma2013]

Actually lying/minimizing in order to protect oneself is a natural instinct in everyone. Lying is a huge part of child development. It is considered a milestone when a young child learns to lie in order to not get in trouble. It is human nature to protect oneself. But like a lot of things we teach our children to not lie but rather face the consequences of their actions. We teach children to go against their "nature" and learn morals and right behaviour.

 

I was fully honest with my H and let me tell you their was nothing "natural" about it. So I understand why so many WS minimize and lie and deny. Being brutally honest, specially after great dishonesty, is probably the most unnatural thing in the world to do. But it is the right thing to do. Rising above the need to self protect and even protect the feelings of our BS I believe gives the best odds to Reconciliation.

 

 

****************************************************************

"I was fully honest with my H "... Well selfish you are ONE OF THE FIRST WWS HERE that have have admitted telling Truth and being honest with their BHs....RE their affair...

 

Most DO NOT...My entire scenario was different...However that must have brutal on both of you...

 

I applaud you as a WW for doing the right thing and letting your BH make the dececsion to stay or go...

 

I must ask...Did your H ask for details etc,,,...and since you were honest i assume you answered what was asked ....How did he take all of this? Your answer will help me in some small way understand things..

 

thank you Badkarma

Edited December 18, 2014 by badkarma2013

[MuddyFootprints]

No doubt you are right.

 

[fellini]

Maybe some BS's are not neanderthals who have to choose between Hunting and Gathering and Domestic life - and actually have complex lives and complex emotions and can see complexity in the face of adversity.

 

Mabye some BS's respect their vow: the ones they made to their Wives and in full witness of their friends and family: "To have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse"...

 

Maybe some BS's watched Tom Cruise in Magnolia and saw that as a CYNICAL STATEMENT about the popular fad "men's movement" going out in the woods to beat drums and not as a criticism for so-called Beta types...

 

Maybe some men simply cannot be reduced to Alpha / Beta and don't, even after DDAy see their wives as "sluts" who belong in the kitchen barefoot and breeding THEIR DNA.

 

Maybe some BH's are human beings. And some even believe their wives are human too.

 

 

Moral high horse is something that is inevitable. For the "saints" - those BHs who stay with their WWs because of young kids, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They see their slvt wives in the kitchen and their innocent kids doing homework or toddling around. What can they do but hang around and act morally superior? They can't leave, they can't stay and bear to look at their disgusting WWs.

 

The beta males are too weak/demoralized or just plain lazy to start out again. They would rather pat their own backs for their good-heartedness and forgiveness and applaud their WWs for their "remorse". No moral high horse for them. These are the most delusional of the lot. Some stay delusional, others come out of the fog and eventually leave.

 

True alphas just pack up and leave - kids or no kids. If the BH is a true leader of men, he will not only leave, but will exact some sort of vengeance on OM for defiling his wife. They not only think they are morally superior, they actually act on it. These are the ones I most admire.

 

Most BHs in R on this site are Saints, primarily staying for the innocent kids. A few are Alphas (Sophie2013's ex-BH is one), but there are quite a few delusional betas.

Edited December 18, 2014 by fellini

[jm2013]

Moral high horse is something that is inevitable. For the "saints" - those BHs who stay with their WWs because of young kids, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They see their slvt wives in the kitchen and their innocent kids doing homework or toddling around. What can they do but hang around and act morally superior? They can't leave, they can't stay and bear to look at their disgusting WWs.

 

The beta males are too weak/demoralized or just plain lazy to start out again. They would rather pat their own backs for their good-heartedness and forgiveness and applaud their WWs for their "remorse". No moral high horse for them. These are the most delusional of the lot. Some stay delusional, others come out of the fog and eventually leave.

 

True alphas just pack up and leave - kids or no kids. If the BH is a true leader of men, he will not only leave, but will exact some sort of vengeance on OM for defiling his wife. They not only think they are morally superior, they actually act on it. These are the ones I most admire.

 

Most BHs in R on this site are Saints, primarily staying for the innocent kids. A few are Alphas (Sophie2013's ex-BH is one), but there are quite a few delusional betas.

 

What about the the WS WANTING to be defiled by the other person? What kind of vengeance are you talking about? Murdering, beating or vilification? Something else? Why would the betrayed be the ones to pack their bags? I did that and it was the biggest mistake ever.

[Sub]

They see their slvt wives in the kitchen...

I do most of the cooking in my house. Not only is my penis still attached, it worked really well - twice - this morning before my W and I got ready for work.

[thirtysomethingteen]

I raised the topic because I wonder if sometimes BS's lack empathy for WS's. Sure some of them turn out to be horrible people, but others...good PEOPLE who made bad choices for dumb reasons. And while I did the right thing by my marriage, and she did the wrong thing by it, I wonder if I don't still feel like I get to play the high horse card ( even subconsciously) in areas outside of our marriage, ya know?

 

I know BS's who don't trust their WS's with the kids, with money, with the car, with the bills...nothing. It's as if cheating and all the extreme selfishness that comes with it, automatically means WS's are irresponsible or morally reprehensible in ALL facets of life. And I don't believe that's always the case.

 

I hear you on this. I was definitely on my moral high horse for about the first 1.5 years after D-day...until I suddenly found myself in a dumb mutual attraction with some random guy I met on the train on the way to work...and then I realized OH! this is how it happens. Suddenly I no longer felt so morally supierior to my H and realized that we were both just human beings who were both capable of making bad decisions.

 

When I became very attracted to the OM earlier this year I was desperate to justify it and so tried to convince myself that I had earned and was entitled to a free pass because of my H's previous infidelity. But somehow I couldn't imagine that logic would be any comfort to the OM's innocent wife and children. There are always casualties.

[badkarma2013]

Posted by wallstreeter....

 

"True alphas just pack up and leave - kids or no kids. If the BH is a true leader of men, he will not only leave, but will exact some sort of vengeance on OM for defiling his wife. They not only think they are morally superior, they actually act on it. These are the ones I most admire."

 

 

I destroyed the OM...i outed him to his BW and she ruined him in his D...I filed a multi million dollar lawsuit against him and the company he and my wife worked for...THEY BOTH WERE FIRED...

 

I showed the pics he gave me of my WW and him having sex to her family...I DESTROYED HER AS WELL...I burned EVERYTHING to the ground...

 

I NEVER considered my self ALPHA...I was just angry and sad...

[TrustedthenBusted]

 

True alphas just pack up and leave - kids or no kids. .

 

You spelled a-holes wrong.

 

And it's been my experience that the men I know who you'd probably describe as alphas are some of the biggest philanderers out there.

 

 

That said, if it makes you feel better, I put OM in a headlock and held his face to street while he begged and apologized.

[drifter777]

...

Why would the betrayed be the ones to pack their bags? I did that and it was the biggest mistake ever.

Because you can't make your WW leave if she doesn't want to.

 

You left and you say it was a mistake - why do you say this?

[road]

I just had this conversation with my WW this past weekend, in regards to a friend of ours who's going through a D with his WW, pretty much because she didn't come clean when he begged her to.

Her perspective: if you know you're going to lose EVERYTHING by owning up to it and disclosing it all, why wouldn't you minimize it? You think it's your only shot.

My answer: There's less a chance of losing everything if you come clean from the get, than if you're found out to be lying on top of your lies down the line.

Her reply: It's a risk most aren't willing to take. She'd rather play the odds of it never being found out.

My reply: How'd that work out?

 

In effect, it's hard to answer whether or not I (as a BS) would minimize and try to save everything by not disclosing or trickle-truthing. I can't erase the perspective I have. I can see the rationale of the WW in that moment - they're just trying to survive, keep what they have and not face the consequences. I get it. But I always go back to the odds.

 

 

 

Simple:

 

 

Many WW's never get caught.

 

 

Many WW's that get caught have a BH that outside of finding out the WW is having an affair never get to find out the who, what, where, when, and, why, of the affair. So the WW will not reveal anything the BH can not prove happened to do damage control.

 

 

Many BH's will try to save their marriage. Knowing this the WW gambles that the BH will not divorce her is she will not be honest on D day and after.

 

 

Yet the WW will then stay in a marriage that is now worse then before her affair then rather tell her BH the full truth.

Edited December 18, 2014 by road

[Trotters]

Whats D-Day?

[badkarma2013]

Whats D-Day?

 

the day the affair is discovered!

[Selfish]

I showed the pics he gave me of my WW and him having sex to her family...I DESTROYED HER AS WELL...I burned EVERYTHING to the ground...

 

This is one of the most terrible thing besides murder I have ever read a BS do. Please tell me they asked to see the photos because they didn't believe she had cheated. And not that you burned those images into their minds. This is the problem with the revenge. It is rarely the guilty party alone who gets hurt.

[badkarma2013]

This is one of the most terrible thing besides murder I have ever read a BS do. Please tell me they asked to see the photos because they didn't believe she had cheated. And not that you burned those images into their minds. This is the problem with the revenge. It is rarely the guilty party alone who gets hurt.

 

*****************************************************************

 

I would have NEVER done so without her family asking...they could not believe..she could have possiably done ANYTHING much less what she did...

 

She had led them to believe I was making things up so I could file for D...at the time she did not know i had the flash drive in hand...

 

She had (inferred ) I maybe was having an A....

 

When confronted I told them I had proof ...BUT YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE IT... I remember telling them if you see this it may be your UNDOING...and i wasnt kidding..

 

They called me a GODDA#N LIAR...until they didnt....and yes it was as HORRIBLE as you can imagine...we all cried and i to this day ...find no joy in those actions...only sadness...as you said so many others were crushed...

[Selfish]

****************************************************************

"I was fully honest with my H "... Well selfish you are ONE OF THE FIRST WWS HERE that have have admitted telling Truth and being honest with their BHs....RE their affair...

 

Most DO NOT...My entire scenario was different...However that must have brutal on both of you...

 

I applaud you as a WW for doing the right thing and letting your BH make the dececsion to stay or go...

 

I must ask...Did your H ask for details etc,,,...and since you were honest i assume you answered what was asked ....How did he take all of this? Your answer will help me in some small way understand things..

 

thank you Badkarma

My husband asked if we used protection. He asked where he was when certain incidents took place to create a timeline for himself. Most things I offered before he could ask but he did not want to know a play by play. BEsides it being illicit nature, xMM and I had vanilla sex (missionary, doggie.) and I never got fully naked. That was all the info my H wanted.

 

he never questioned me telling him the truth. Even though on here many would encourage him "there was more" and all WS lie and minimize. He is a smart man and knows not all do and sometimes there isn't more. And the things I confessed to were as bad as it gets. (sex while under the same roof)

 

he took it well in comparison to many others. my husband is a very secure man. I do not define him. He was hurt and disappointed in me but he did not have the soul crushing experience others have. There is nothing chauvinist about him, he is not a dweller, nor does he overthink things. He never made it about him or his failings. He asked that I get tested for stis and go NC. I had an appointment already for the sti test already and had already implemented NC. I also had to go into counseling. he waited until my sti tests came in before we resumed sexual activity. I waited holding my breath for a year for the other shoe to drop. But there was no other shoe. (I should note here that my affair was carried out by me taking advantage of his trust. He knew when I was with xMM but trusted me to behave. It isn't foolish or rugsweeping of him that he didn't rail on me or make a whole bunch of demands. he was well aware of my whereabouts and behaviour after I confessed. That was enough for him)

[badkarma2013]

My husband asked if we used protection. He asked where he was when certain incidents took place to create a timeline for himself. Most things I offered before he could ask but he did not want to know a play by play. BEsides it being illicit nature, xMM and I had vanilla sex (missionary, doggie.) and I never got fully naked. That was all the info my H wanted.

 

he never questioned me telling him the truth. Even though on here many would encourage him "there was more" and all WS lie and minimize. He is a smart man and knows not all do and sometimes there isn't more. And the things I confessed to were as bad as it gets. (sex while under the same roof)

 

he took it well in comparison to many others. my husband is a very secure man. I do not define him. He was hurt and disappointed in me but he did not have the soul crushing experience others have. There is nothing chauvinist about him, he is not a dweller, nor does he overthink things. He never made it about him or his failings. He asked that I get tested for stis and go NC. I had an appointment already for the sti test already and had already implemented NC. I also had to go into counseling. he waited until my sti tests came in before we resumed sexual activity. I waited holding my breath for a year for the other shoe to drop. But there was no other shoe. (I should note here that my affair was carried out by me taking advantage of his trust. He knew when I was with xMM but trusted me to behave. It isn't foolish or rugsweeping of him that he didn't rail on me or make a whole bunch of demands. he was well aware of my whereabouts and behaviour after I confessed. That was enough for him)

 

****************************************************************

 

He is one secure man...again I applaud you for telling all he ask..MOST DO NOT...as you have stated and seen here MOST BHs have a SOUL CRUSHING experiance and no matter how secure we think we are (BHs)...we simply cannot over come the lies and betrayal and pain that goes with it...

 

Thank you for answering my post as that is deeply personal and if you could not ..I would have understood..