BS's and the Moral High Horse. Or...Wayward Empahy?

[drifter777]

'When a WS trickle truths or lies it resets the clock on the 2-5 years of recovery. Which is an average. So he is on 3 years. '

 

 

Is this from a reputable study, or is it from any anecdotal evidence, or.... is it like most stats quoted here... pulled outta da a**?

The 2 - 5 year thing is regurgitated on here quite often. I think some famous Infidelity author said this so, for some reason, it is gospel. The truth is, recovery takes as long as it takes and there is no time frame that is "too short" or "too long".

[Selfish]

'When a WS trickle truths or lies it resets the clock on the 2-5 years of recovery. Which is an average. So he is on 3 years. '

 

 

Is this from a reputable study, or is it from any anecdotal evidence, or.... is it like most stats quoted here... pulled outta da a**?

 

It is a widely embraced guideline that if you google you will find any info you want on it. It is just an idea to give to people who one year out and are beating themselves up because they still feel tortured by the affair. I have no links to studies or not because i learned about it on forums. It seemed to fit what i have seen and know personally of infidelity. But of course everything has exceptions. But, why did this common guideline upset you so much you felt the need to be insulting?

[Selfish]

The 2 - 5 year thing is regurgitated on here quite often. I think some famous Infidelity author said this so, for some reason, it is gospel. The truth is, recovery takes as long as it takes and there is no time frame that is "too short" or "too long".

 

I disagree, if you are 15 years in and still punishing your WS over the affair and lording it over them, you would probably benefit from doing a little soul searching. this is talking about reconciliation. There is "too long" for the health of the marriage. and the same goes the other way. At one month I would say that is too quick to feel a marriage is reconciled.

[Cali408]

Spoken like a true WS - thanks for sharing.

 

Everyone knows that the BS just has to get over it. Stop living in the past because, if you don't, you are punishing your WS. And, of course, forgive completely right now you selfish bastard. Cali408 - thanks again for your remarkable insights.

 

I appreciate the gratitude, you're welcome.

 

So, the OP basically took her back and suffered for 2 years because of her inability to be contrite.

 

Why did you wait that long?

 

All I'm trying to ask is if you are closer than ever, doing well, why are you still dwelling on it? 5 years is a wasted time.

 

So I was a ex WS, so what? I can't have an opinion here?

[katielee]

When a WS trickle truths or lies it resets the clock on the 2-5 years of recovery. Which is an average. So he is on 3 years. I don't think it is that odd of a place to be in.

 

I agree. My affair was 5 years ago. My husband, in just the last 6 months, has finally started to jump in the marriage with both feet. I think there will always be seeds of doubt, but they'll get fewer and further between and take less time, that's what it's been like for me at least.

Completely forgive? don't see many WS getting to this. Acceptance maybe. Living with it maybe.

[jm2013]

I didn't pursue a woman to the degree you say you did - but I wanted to. I just didn't work hard enough to find a woman willing to be with me. As some of you know, I had to leave our home immediately and I moved in with brother-in-law (who was divorced from my sister). Never told him more than that I was finished with my marriage & he never asked me a thing about why. So I guess sitting in my BIL's spare bedroom wishing I was dead made hooking up a little harder then if I was cruising the bar's or even going to work.

 

I have said I didn't talk to anyone about my wife's cheating for decades. That's not true - I guess I purposely overlooked talking to our minister about 2 weeks after d-day. I told him the basics of what she did and how devastated I was - like he couldn't see that. He was shocked because he knew us and my wife's family. He tried to be very comforting but I was inconsolable. Like you I thought I must replace that bitch with a woman - any woman - in order to take my mind off of my hell. I was determined to hate my WW forever and never look back so I wanted to build an emotional wall between my life now and my life with her. But I could not pursue any kind of relationship with another woman because I was married. I sure didn't feel "married" in spirit after what she did and I asked our minister if, in his eyes, I could try to begin dating without violating my marriage vow. He was surprised I even asked and told me quite firmly that my wife's actions had destroyed the marriage vows and I was free to do whatever I chose in this circumstance. He did advise me to wait until I was emotionally ready before I began dating other women, but anyone would understand that advice.

 

When I did get back with my wife she asked me who I had told about all of this and I told her no one but our minister. Needless to say, she never set foot in that church again. She also was very interested to know if I hooked up with anyone and was relieved to find out I hadn't.

 

Very long-winded response - I guess I'm feeling especially sad today. But that sadness did motivate me to give you my opinion that when your WW did what she did AND you had no intention of reconciling then all marriage vows ceased to exist. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, and I strongly believe that God knows the difference.

 

To be honest, I didn't really do much pursuing. There were a couple women who tried initiating when they found out about my situation. I "thought" it would make me feel better. What I realized is I wouldn't be with anybody else until I was ready. It wouldn't be fair to them anyways unless it was purely sexual. How long were you out of your house? I agree with your opinion about the vows. I may still be married by "law" but she killed our marriage when she cheated.

[drifter777]

I appreciate the gratitude, you're welcome.

 

So, the OP basically took her back and suffered for 2 years because of her inability to be contrite.

 

Why did you wait that long?

 

All I'm trying to ask is if you are closer than ever, doing well, why are you still dwelling on it? 5 years is a wasted time.

 

So I was a ex WS, so what? I can't have an opinion here?

Of course you have an opinion, but it is colored toward your status as a WS just as much as mine is colored toward the BS. So when another BS is working on reconciliation I believe that most other BSs will provide more valuable information - based on their experience - than anyone who is not a BS.

[Striver]

I really thought about your valid observations and agree that no one owns the moral high ground all the time. A healthy person recognizes that and does not use it as a weapon.

 

This is an infidelity forum and there are many people here who were hurt badly. but does that make them a saint....no not all. A truly remorseful WS may take years to regain the love and trust they risked. It wouldn't be fair to her/him to hold them in contempt for the rest of their lives. Reconciliation is a hard and long road, and some just sweep things under the rug but wrestle with their own issues.

 

Ironically, many betrayed spouses become WS's and it's not surprising that in a way it's a rejection of moral high-ground in the sense that if you can't beat them join them and that cheating is not really seen as such a big deal in society.

 

Have a look around you and the people and family member in your own life and it's very telling as to which are authentic and which are not.

 

If the WS actually leaves the marriage/divorces for OM (my case) it's sort of hard to have the moral high ground. My WS does not really recognize that there is a moral high ground. Not really. Still lots of justifications, attacks on my and my life so she can justify breaking up the family.

 

So in that case, I totally get BS flipping to WS. BS gets the penalty of the destruction of the marriage and family. The law does not penalize infidelity any more, no fault almost everywhere. So the WS gets the fun of the affair, and less pain because they already stopped caring about the relationship and/or intact family. The BS suffers loss. Maybe they can find someone else, years down the road, but there is no guarantee that the second spouse will not also cheat if BS couldn't see it coming with spouse #1. First time tragedy, second time farce. BS who gets sympathy for one failed marriage maybe think they will be laughed at for another.

 

So BS to WS is a recognition that the penalties for cheating are not there. That you can't defend yourself from cheating, and society won't help you. BS to WS is also a revenge affair, since the original WS no longer cares about you anyway and is impervious. So BS to WS takes out their anger on the new partner, the only source available.

[drifter777]

To be honest, I didn't really do much pursuing. There were a couple women who tried initiating when they found out about my situation. I "thought" it would make me feel better. What I realized is I wouldn't be with anybody else until I was ready. It wouldn't be fair to them anyways unless it was purely sexual. How long were you out of your house? I agree with your opinion about the vows. I may still be married by "law" but she killed our marriage when she cheated.

Somewhere between 3 and 4 weeks. Nowhere near the time it would have taken me to actually pursue any kind of relationship with another woman. But in my mind I did think that dating another woman would help me recover.

[Sub]

All I'm trying to ask is if you are closer than ever, doing well, why are you still dwelling on it? 5 years is a wasted time.

They're not mutually exclusive. I am in love with my wife. I love the life we have. We're in a very good place, as a couple and individually. That doesn't mean there aren't times I think about what happened with us. Nor does it mean there are times she doesn't think about it as well. You're misconstruing the moments, or the triggers, with constant "dwelling". It's a misrepresentation of the reality.

[badkarma2013]

They're not mutually exclusive. I am in love with my wife. I love the life we have. We're in a very good place, as a couple and individually. That doesn't mean there aren't times I think about what happened with us. Nor does it mean there are times she doesn't think about it as well. You're misconstruing the moments, or the triggers, with constant "dwelling". It's a misrepresentation of the reality.

 

Not for a lot of BHs here, Triggers are a part of their LIVES...That never end..

[Sub]

Not for a lot of BHs here, Triggers are a part of their LIVES...That never end..

 

Triggers are a part of my life as well. They have not ended. My point is this: BS's can function, can move forward in a positive manner with their WS's, and STILL experience/deal with the triggers. We don't rage at our WS's every day of the week because of them.

[Furious]

You may be right.

 

I know a lot of people on here have sought out revenge affairs, and that this is a common coping tool. My guess is more people have had them than will ever admit to on here actually.

 

I came VERY close to having one when I was at my worst, and will admit that I let it go pretty far before pulling the plug. Even then, it wasn't any sense of morality that stopped me, or any lack of empathy.

 

Once this woman gave me the green light, instead of being excited, I actually got angry. I felt like " So THIS is what my whore wife was out doing..." and the whole thing just made me sick to my stomache.

 

but had it gone further... would I have fessed up? I dunno. Easy to say I would, which is what we all SAY on here. But reality has a way of being much more difficult than typing on interweb forums.

 

 

You're bargaining with yourself and in conflict with your own moral compass.

 

It's normal to shift ones moral compass, especially when it didn't serve you or protect from being deceived.

 

You forgave, you kept the family together. This is your moral high-ground.

 

But...but....you still feel cheated, she did the crime and you served the time. You're angry, you want some of that feel good dopamine. You're wanting to cheat too. in order to do this you must let go you're moral superiority.

 

what I really see is a good man, who loved sincerely and who's ego and pride has been crushed and has not really forgiven his wife.

 

Any betrayed spouse know cheating is easy, that has always been a choice.

 

I get what you're feeling, I wouldn't blame you if you did cheat. In a way it's mirror image of keeping the family together except you'd be having some fun too and really what's the big deal. If you forgave your wife, then she'd have to forgive you too. It's all about empathy...right.

 

Your fear of divorce and taking a chance on a real relatinship in the future is your biggest fear.

 

Trust that you deserve more than just an affair and being a martyr in a doomed marriage.

[katielee]

or, how about people have values and live according to them. It's not a freaking competition between spouses. You have your values, they have theirs. Hopefully, they'd co-exist peacefully most of the time. WS has affair, BS betrays themselves and their own values to have a RA so things are equal? Talk about an unhealthy dynamic. You fell off the cliff so I need to as well. There goes the entire marriage. BUT, if one person holds true and straight, maybe the ship can straighten itself with a lot of work by mainly the WS.

I don't see how this would be the moral high horse by the BS, it would simply be continuing to live their life with integrity. Acting out by the BS doesn't make things equal. It just points to both spouses being unhealthy.

[Furious]

I get the impression this thread is not about empathy for the WS but an exercise in becoming one too.

 

T&B

 

Is saving your family worth the risk of another affair to risk it.

 

I think you're an amazing man and your kids will always have a great father in you. Think you deserve more than affair, I think you deserve to be happy and not carry the weight of infidelity for the rest of your life.

[jm2013]

or, how about people have values and live according to them. It's not a freaking competition between spouses. You have your values, they have theirs. Hopefully, they'd co-exist peacefully most of the time. WS has affair, BS betrays themselves and their own values to have a RA so things are equal? Talk about an unhealthy dynamic. You fell off the cliff so I need to as well. There goes the entire marriage. BUT, if one person holds true and straight, maybe the ship can straighten itself with a lot of work by mainly the WS.

I don't see how this would be the moral high horse by the BS, it would simply be continuing to live their life with integrity. Acting out by the BS doesn't make things equal. It just points to both spouses being unhealthy.

 

WS makes the marriage open. Why does the WS feel entitled to exclusivity when their actions work contrary to what they want? My wife distorted what our marriage is and opened my shell up to a world that many people are oblivious about. We all used to live under that same security blanket until it was shattered by our spouses. If you stripped money, assets, kids and everything that hurts the most out of a painful divorce I wonder how many BS's would just walk away. My wife right now feels more like a good friend than a lover. My connection I once shared with her has gone and died. It seems like once the marriage has been shattered by infidelity the bitterness, hatred and disgust carry on through the years. I wonder what % of BS'S go on to find an exit affair and will actually leave the marriage once their new partner is secured.

[drifter777]

WS makes the marriage open. Why does the WS feel entitled to exclusivity when their actions work contrary to what they want? My wife distorted what our marriage is and opened my shell up to a world that many people are oblivious about. We all used to live under that same security blanket until it was shattered by our spouses. If you stripped money, assets, kids and everything that hurts the most out of a painful divorce I wonder how many BS's would just walk away. My wife right now feels more like a good friend than a lover. My connection I once shared with her has gone and died. It seems like once the marriage has been shattered by infidelity the bitterness, hatred and disgust carry on through the years. I wonder what % of BS'S go on to find an exit affair and will actually leave the marriage once their new partner is secured.

Not sure what you mean here. You feel like her cheating ended the marriage vow of fidelity? When you left after d-day you had no intention of trying to reconcile. The way I feel at that time you were not married in spirit so you had no obligation to those wedding vows. But once you decide to reconcile I think you bring back the "spirit" of your marriage and you are accepting all of the vows and promises that go with it. Do you disagree with me on this?

[katielee]

WS makes the marriage open. Why does the WS feel entitled to exclusivity when their actions work contrary to what they want?

 

because an affair is not really what the WS wants, what they want is their fragile ego stroked because they are in some sort of pain they can't manage a healthy way.

They "think" they need this but really, they need to get mentally healthy. Having an affair is actually going in the other direction from that. Getting their validation externally is going backwards.

 

I couldn't live with myself if I had a RA on my husband. His having one doens't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want. His affair is his issue. He betrayed his own values when he made a decision to do that. Me living my values is my issue, and it sure as heck takes precedent over some reactive decision I would make just to get even.

[TrustedthenBusted]

I appreciate the gratitude, you're welcome.

 

So, the OP basically took her back and suffered for 2 years because of her inability to be contrite.

 

Why did you wait that long?

 

All I'm trying to ask is if you are closer than ever, doing well, why are you still dwelling on it? 5 years is a wasted time.

 

So I was a ex WS, so what? I can't have an opinion here?

 

I didn't "wait" that long for her to be contrite. She expressed remorse, and was forthcoming, and I thought we were working on it. THEN I'd find out that what she admitted was hugely minimized, and I'd call her out on it, and then we'd go backwards. It was a real rollercoaster getting her to understand that the only way forward was total honesty. And we had very small children while all this was going on.

 

As for dwelling on it... am I? I've known about this forum for 5 years, and visited it 5 years ago. I only started posting recently, because I was having a difficult week. Since then, I've been reading and posting a bit lately, sharing insight, but also providing feedback on what some people might expect to be experiencing many years after D-Day. I think a lot of people would be doing well to be where I am today honestly.

 

We are working on it, and most of the time doing pretty well. But like you, I come here to share my opinion on the things that many of our unfortunate "newest" members are going through right now.

 

Hell, this very topic isn't about dwelling on it. It's about trying to understand the dynamics of recovery in order to help people move past one of the most common barriers for BS's. That of riding a moral high horse, and not having any empathy for their betrayer.

 

I'd call that progress. Not dwelling.

[Selfish]

WS makes the marriage open. Why does the WS feel entitled to exclusivity when their actions work contrary to what they want? My wife distorted what our marriage is and opened my shell up to a world that many people are oblivious about. We all used to live under that same security blanket until it was shattered by our spouses. If you stripped money, assets, kids and everything that hurts the most out of a painful divorce I wonder how many BS's would just walk away. My wife right now feels more like a good friend than a lover. My connection I once shared with her has gone and died. It seems like once the marriage has been shattered by infidelity the bitterness, hatred and disgust carry on through the years. I wonder what % of BS'S go on to find an exit affair and will actually leave the marriage once their new partner is secured.

 

Infidelity isn't opening the marraige up. It is breaking wedding vows and being a liar and a sneak. Opening the marriage up is a mutual agreement between spouses. So, just like a WS has the choice to leave the marriage or cheat the BS also has that choice. If cheating is wrong. It is wrong. no maybe some don't view the need for the divorce papers to be signed. That is really the individual's viewpoint. But like drifter said, if reconciliation is being worked on, cheating is cheating.

[jm2013]

Not sure what you mean here. You feel like her cheating ended the marriage vow of fidelity? When you left after d-day you had no intention of trying to reconcile. The way I feel at that time you were not married in spirit so you had no obligation to those wedding vows. But once you decide to reconcile I think you bring back the "spirit" of your marriage and you are accepting all of the vows and promises that go with it. Do you disagree with me on this?

 

No, I don't disagree with you. I guess I was trying to say when a WS decides to go out and cheat the marriage is technically open right? I mean really they're living a one sided open marriage. I wonder how many WS's would be comfortable having their spouse out doing the same thing while they were active in their own affair. I still believe in exclusivity without marriage. Even on a dating level. After my wife's affair I kind of took a step back from everything. I remember telling her once that maybe her affair allowed me to be with somebody true who I haven't found yet. How do I know down the road I wouldn't find THE ONE. You know? I got married young so we had to go through all of that bs that young people do and get out of their system then move on to more adult things.

[Selfish]

because an affair is not really what the WS wants, what they want is their fragile ego stroked because they are in some sort of pain they can't manage a healthy way.

They "think" they need this but really, they need to get mentally healthy. Having an affair is actually going in the other direction from that. Getting their validation externally is going backwards.

 

I couldn't live with myself if I had a RA on my husband. His having one doens't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want. His affair is his issue. He betrayed his own values when he made a decision to do that. Me living my values is my issue, and it sure as heck takes precedent over some reactive decision I would make just to get even.

 

besides it is also a fool's folly to try to even things. Justifying bad behaviour is just that, justifying bad behaviour. And if someone wants to cheat they will more often than not try to justify that.

 

Let's take Katielee's situation. She cheated. He had a RA and then for whatever reason another. So, let's say he justified it because she started it he needed to get two in to make it even (I don't know if he thought this). Now she could feel the need for another to make it even mathematically. But then, he could still feel like she started it and go out and have a third.... and so then she could have a third...

 

and none of that makes a good marriage. Someone has to say stop at some point and be the better person. Or not, but it would get really messy really fast.

[katielee]

This is why I'm so hesitant to come here with questions/issues/venting. We are doing well, but if I mention something, people think I'm bitter, anger and resentful and just not over it. No, not over it, but we are doing very well. We talk about it 1 day a month for a bout 5/10 minutes maybe. Considering what happened, I think that's good.

I think a few years down the road there are sticking points - as there are with us - and we need a little umph or talking out loud or just another's unbiased opinion at times. But, it's hard to get that here. Most of the time I get, you guys are even now get over it.

Sorry I am thread jacking but I know what you mean.... things good, but far from perfect.

[Selfish]

I get the impression this thread is not about empathy for the WS but an exercise in becoming one too.

 

T&B

 

Is saving your family worth the risk of another affair to risk it.

 

I think you're an amazing man and your kids will always have a great father in you. Think you deserve more than affair, I think you deserve to be happy and not carry the weight of infidelity for the rest of your life.

no, it was about empathy. It was about OP imaging if he HAD cheated that he could see the temptation of trickle truthing. And how hard being fully honest is.

[jm2013]

besides it is also a fool's folly to try to even things. Justifying bad behaviour is just that, justifying bad behaviour. And if someone wants to cheat they will more often than not try to justify that.

 

Let's take Katielee's situation. She cheated. He had a RA and then for whatever reason another. So, let's say he justified it because she started it he needed to get two in to make it even (I don't know if he thought this). Now she could feel the need for another to make it even mathematically. But then, he could still feel like she started it and go out and have a third.... and so then she could have a third...

 

and none of that makes a good marriage. Someone has to say stop at some point and be the better person. Or not, but it would get really messy really fast.

 

I don't believe in revenge affairs to get "even". Though I wonder how many BS's open up to exit affairs.