Why do a lot of women expect MORE for LESS?

[elaine567]

Ugh, too many people talking to me about my preference for younger women.

 

We have actually highlighted why you are being ignored by women you are interested in, do you not want to hear the solution to your "problem"?

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Ugh, too many people talking to me about my preference for younger women.

 

Well to be fair, you're the one who wanted to discuss it further after silly answer mentioned it briefly.

[somedude81]

We have actually highlighted why you are being ignored by women you are interested in, do you not want to hear the solution to your "problem"?

 

Not really. I don't want to be the focus of the thread.

 

Well to be fair, you're the one who wanted to discuss it further after silly answer mentioned it briefly.

 

It was his fault for bringing it up. I purposely did not mention age at all.

 

I felt like I had to defend myself.

[sillyanswer]

Ugh, too many people talking to me about my preference for younger women.

 

Sorry, Somedude. I was just trying to help with your idea of finding someone "similar". I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with consenting adults of any age dating.

[clia]

To me, a chance is one date. That's all I want. Yet it feels like trying to get one date with a girl I'm attracted to feels like I'm asking to win the lottery.

 

Because they were far below average in looks. All I want is a woman who is similar to me in terms of attractiveness, and personality.

 

If the girls you are attracted to do not want to go on dates with you, you might consider the possibility that they do not think you are similar to them in terms of attractiveness and personality.

[Maleficent]

So what you're saying is if men are not finding the "product" desirable enough to purchase as well, then there is something wrong with what that woman has to offer?

 

We don't see a lot of women on here saying their dating problems are every man's fault. But it there was, my response to them would essentially be the same as here.

 

It's called a common denominator. When someone has the same problem with everyone, they are usually the problem.

Man or woman.

[Phoe]

I have a friend who signed up for Match and received 274 emails in her first four days. She showed it to me on her phone, so I know she wasn't exaggerating. Of course, she is incredibly hot and gets hit on all the time in public, so it's not surprising.

 

That's not normal.

 

My original statement was referring to a normal average person.

 

Sure, a particularly exceptional person can have hundreds interested. But that's not normal at all and definitely shouldn't be used as any sort of reference point.

 

In a similar period of time, I got a bit over a dozen messages. That's more normal for an average woman, I'd say.

 

So when OLD is considered, let's say I had about a dozen or so options. I found several acceptable! Nothing weird about that. Decent odds.

 

When OLD is not in play, the options drop drastically. In a calendar year, I might have no men interested in me. Next year I might have one interested. I think the most I've ever had interested in me in a whole year was 3. But the norm is 0 or 1. Definitely not e greatest odds for finding a good fit, but I always do my best to work with the options I'm given and see what can happen. It always ends up being a bad fit, but hey, that's the odds.

[Maleficent]

I'll leave it to Somedude81 to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe his point was this: It's better to have lots of options (even if the vast majority of them are bad) than to have little to no options.

Example: A woman receives 50 messages, but 45 of them are deemed unsuitable. She has 5 options remaining. A man sends out 50 messages and he gets 2 responses. 5 is greater than 2. (For the record, a 4% response rate is much higher than my actual response rate)

 

 

I don't mind you using my case as an example. We are all here to share and learn.

 

 

I do want to point out that having greater options would have helped me in my situation. I would have dropped each of those women much earlier and moved on to other women if other options had been available.

 

I see his point clearly. My problem with it is that he sees this as a great injustice to him and men altogether.

Which is a load of crap.

[Els]

I have a friend who signed up for Match and received 274 emails in her first four days. She showed it to me on her phone, so I know she wasn't exaggerating. Of course, she is incredibly hot and gets hit on all the time in public, so it's not surprising.

 

I sincerely doubt a large number of OLD emails significantly increases one's chances of finding a compatible LTR who will stick around through the ups and downs (that everyone inevitably goes through in life). I don't see why it's being perceived as such, especially in the case of an exceptionally good-looking photo. Chances are 273/274 of the people emailing your friend have only seen her photo and don't really care to get to know her as a person. The 1/274 could have been 1/20 in the case of other men/women - the extras don't really matter.

[Maleficent]

Why else would he mention me preferring to date younger women? He must believe that younger women are better, and that I would have to "settle" for a woman my age.

 

He might be saying you should give women your age 'a chance'.

[MidwestUSA]

He might be saying you should give women your age 'a chance'.

 

I think we all know why he's ruled out women his age. They might have higher expectations of a 33 year old. By focussing on 21-22 year olds, who haven't matured yet, he hopes they will overlook his shortcomings and his delay in getting to where he should be in life by this point in time.

 

 

Unfortunately, as the young one ages, she's going to pass him by in those categories, and come to resent him, so he's really stuck in a lose/lose situation.

[Ninjainpajamas]

We don't see a lot of women on here saying their dating problems are every man's fault. But it there was, my response to them would essentially be the same as here.

 

It's called a common denominator. When someone has the same problem with everyone, they are usually the problem.

Man or woman.

 

I was trying to make a point with that statement...

 

The thing on LS which is very common that I see, is that these philosophies are not put into practice...only in theory and written...like a quote off the internet that everyone likes and shares, not because they actually do it but because it just sounds good.

 

People selectively and conveniently manipulate situations and make arguments that are highly contradictory because of a clear bias, although they do not admit to it and claim it's motive is equality....for example to what they may say in another thread with an identical situation, may be entirely different than in another only because the emotions and bias is different although the principle is the same.

 

But no matter...that is to be expected, I often wonder however how people are able to convince themselves, but that's people.

[Shining One]

That's not normal.

 

My original statement was referring to a normal average person.

To be fair, your exact words were:

But no one has 100 others interested in them. No one.

 

 

I sincerely doubt a large number of OLD emails significantly increases one's chances of finding a compatible LTR who will stick around through the ups and downs (that everyone inevitably goes through in life). I don't see why it's being perceived as such, especially in the case of an exceptionally good-looking photo. Chances are 273/274 of the people emailing your friend have only seen her photo and don't really care to get to know her as a person. The 1/274 could have been 1/20 in the case of other men/women - the extras don't really matter.

I don't know if she even went through all those as she hit 1500+ before she hid her profile. She multi-dated five of the guys and is now in a relationship with one of them. I'll ask her how many she considered "dateable" next time I speak to her.

[Mangina]

We don't see a lot of women on here saying their dating problems are every man's fault. But it there was, my response to them would essentially be the same as here.

 

It's called a common denominator. When someone has the same problem with everyone, they are usually the problem.

Man or woman.

There was some posts a few pages back with girls saying the guys they like only wanted sex. I believe it is that is the same as guys not getting dates and being seen as only a friend

[dreamingoftigers]

Ah that's what you mean.

 

Well, I absolutely do not look my age and I don't act like my age either.

 

So that means that even women who are ten years younger than I am are "similar to me in terms of attractiveness, and personality."

 

My Dad says that about himself.

 

He looks like a frog. An old, old bug-eyed frog.

 

Really hope I got my Mom's genes in that respect.

 

But he does act much younger. Somewhere between petulent child and rebellious 13 year old who wants the car.

 

I guess if you average the two out.......

[Maleficent]

There was some posts a few pages back with girls saying the guys they like only wanted sex. I believe it is that is the same as guys not getting dates and being seen as only a friend

 

I clearly missed those.

 

But ya if a girl complains all the guys only want to **** her, I'd think the issue is with her.

[Maleficent]

I clearly missed those.

 

But ya if a girl complains all the guys only want to **** her, I'd think the issue is with her.

 

Instead of editing. A few years back I was in a situation where all the guys I met only wanted to sleep with me.

And I realized, well, the people I was hanging out were pretty much a band and their roadies (male) and the girl they slept with

All the girls had pretty much slept with all the guys. I didn't but I definitely played along with the flirting that was going on.

 

So of course, the men who are looking for a serious relationship were staying the hell away from me because they just assumed I was another one of the 'groupies'.

And the guys that just wanted to get laid figured I was one of the 'willing' ones.

 

So the source of the problem was not everyone else. It was me

[Lernaean_Hydra]

There was some posts a few pages back with girls saying the guys they like only wanted sex. I believe it is that is the same as guys not getting dates and being seen as only a friend

 

 

Yes! That was the point we too were trying to make.

[toolforgrowth]

I don't really see the point in arguing who has a harder time with OLD, men or women. To me, it's basically down to these two choices: starving to death, or dying from being forced to drink from only polluted water sources. Umm...neither? I've been on both sides of the fence, so I can relate. I've sent thoughtful, well-intentioned messages to women on OLD and never got a response. I've also had thoughtful, well-intentioned women message me who were..."aesthetically deficient". I didn't respond to them, either. And I can imagine that they're probably facing the same thing men face.

 

In the end, I met my current GF in real life through mutual friends.

 

The issues are twofold: First, women have feminism, which teaches them that it's okay to be single and to not settle. It teaches them to be happy with themselves, and that they have value outside of relationships. Men don't have an equivalent philosophy, and we desperately need one.

 

Second: It's pretty obvious that some men here are unhappy with their predicament. That's understandable, and I can relate. But you can't expect to attract quality partners if you are unhappy with yourself, or view yourself negatively. Why should other people value you more than you value yourself?

 

Case in point: I was single for 1.5 years before I met my GF. About 6 months ago, I was invited to a buddy's 30th birthday party. I almost didn't go, but I said "What the hell? I'll go and have a good time with no expectations of anything happening." So I did. I had a few shots, got hammered, and had a blast. Towards the end of the night, a co-worker almost literally jumped on me. We didn't sleep together though (she passed out). Okay, no biggie. About a half hour later I text a friend to come pick me up and take me home because I couldn't drive (also a lady). She heard what happened between me and this other lady when she got there. We get to my house, and I ask my friend point black if she wants to have sex. She says YES. And it was super fun.

 

The point is that when you let go of your preconceived notions, just be yourself, have fun, and be the kind of person that other people want to be around, you will probably naturally attract members of the opposite sex. Neither of these women are actual relationship material, mind you; the first had a boyfriend (which I knew NOTHING about!), and the second is not compatible with me (we both knew this and were ok with it). But that didn't stop the attraction from starting on their end, nor did it stop them from wanting sex with me. And I'm not exactly what you'd call a hunk, either. More like a 5'8" 140 lb nerdy 35 year old guy who really likes Doctor Who. But I don't let that stand in my way.

 

One last thing. Just because you're nice to a lady doesn't obligate her to sleep with you. If a woman holds the elevator for you, you don't stop and think "Well, now I gotta stick it to her." Life doesn't work like that. The problem with Nice Guys is that they give to receive, not just for the sake of giving. There's a covert contract in their head that when they give, they expect something in return (sex), which the woman is most likely clueless even exists. Come on, guys, how often do we complain to our wives/girlfriends that we're not mind readers? That goes both ways. But when they don't live up to your uncommunicated expectation that only exists in your head, you get bitter and resentful. That's not healthy.

 

Lower your expectations (meaning don't go into every situation hoping you'll meet the love of your life), enjoy life, and be the kind of person that people want to be around. It's worked for me so far.

[Els]

Great post, tool. It's always good to read balanced, well thought-out posts from the guys.

 

I'm interested in this statement:

 

The issues are twofold: First, women have feminism, which teaches them that it's okay to be single and to not settle. It teaches them to be happy with themselves, and that they have value outside of relationships. Men don't have an equivalent philosophy, and we desperately need one.

 

Do many men genuinely value themselves according to their relationships? I've always thought that the reason there wasn't an equivalent philosophy for men was because it didn't appear to be needed. Society has always seemed to value men according to their career and achievements (although it's debatable whether that is 'better' or not). But from my observation, women are unfortunately still judged by their relationships or lack thereof more strongly than men are.

 

If you feel such a philosophy for men is genuinely needed, how can we go about affirming to men that they do have value beyond their relationships?

[toolforgrowth]

Thanks, Elswyth.

 

I don't think all men value themselves according to their relationship status, but I tend to think that Nice Guys certainly do. I think reading the posts on this thread alone demonstrates proof of that. But I also believe that a good portion of men overall view themselves more positively when they've got a girl and/or are having at least semi-regular sex. It provides an internal sense of validation for them as "a man". I'd wager that a guy who thinks that way probably views himself as being "manly deficient" in other ways, and is trying way too hard to compensate for it.

 

I don't think it's how society views a single man that's at issue, I think it's how the single man views himself. I used to be a Nice Guy, so I know all about self-loathing. LOL In the wake of my ex wife leaving and cheating, I was full of self loathing. So I went to counseling. My counselor was excellent and taught me how to value myself as a man and as my own person, separate from my ex wife (and all other women, for that matter). This is truly an issue that transcends gender, IMO. Everybody needs to feel as though they have some sense of worth; it's when we only search outside of ourselves and our deeds where it becomes unhealthy.

[Weezy1973]

Thanks, Elswyth.

 

I don't think all men value themselves according to their relationship status, but I tend to think that Nice Guys certainly do. I think reading the posts on this thread alone demonstrates proof of that. But I also believe that a good portion of men overall view themselves more positively when they've got a girl and/or are having at least semi-regular sex. It provides an internal sense of validation for them as "a man". I'd wager that a guy who thinks that way probably views himself as being "manly deficient" in other ways, and is trying way too hard to compensate for it.

 

I don't think it's how society views a single man that's at issue, I think it's how the single man views himself. I used to be a Nice Guy, so I know all about self-loathing. LOL In the wake of my ex wife leaving and cheating, I was full of self loathing. So I went to counseling. My counselor was excellent and taught me how to value myself as a man and as my own person, separate from my ex wife (and all other women, for that matter). This is truly an issue that transcends gender, IMO. Everybody needs to feel as though they have some sense of worth; it's when we only search outside of ourselves and our deeds where it becomes unhealthy.

 

I would add that this internal self-worth is what is missing from almost all the "nice guys" that we see on LS. When they don't get any messages from OLD to them it means they are not worthy of love.

 

And when they compare this to women who get a lot of messages from who the women deem unworthy of their love (or attraction, or affection etc.) it just reinforces what they already believe.

 

And feeling unworthy of love is by far the biggest indicator for things like crime and suicide and other self-destructive behaviours. Not surprising that a lot of the men that clearly feel unworthy of love on LS have also expressed suicidal ideation.

[nofeelings22]

Great post, tool. It's always good to read balanced, well thought-out posts from the guys.

 

I'm interested in this statement:

 

 

 

Do many men genuinely value themselves according to their relationships? I've always thought that the reason there wasn't an equivalent philosophy for men was because it didn't appear to be needed. Society has always seemed to value men according to their career and achievements (although it's debatable whether that is 'better' or not). But from my observation, women are unfortunately still judged by their relationships or lack thereof more strongly than men are.

 

If you feel such a philosophy for men is genuinely needed, how can we go about affirming to men that they do have value beyond their relationships?

 

We absolutely do.

 

It's our relationships and our careers usually. I dumped what society teaches about a career being what defines you as a person many years ago.

 

I'm afraid who I'm with still means something.

 

I'll go a step further and reveal a character flaw I have. I absolutely have to have the hottest girl in the room/social function and even club. I'm fiercely competitive with other guys who might try to assert any superiority over me in any way (not sure why). One way I usually beat the other guys out is by the beauty of my date/gf/wife.

 

No idea where this vicious behavior developed, but I'm the same in business, debates and sports. I'm a terrible alpha type guy and my girl usually furthers this.

 

That's how crazy we can get allowing relationships to define who we are.

 

I mean even at my age, i go into the hottest clubs in NY or Miami and the girl I'm with is so hot, they pull us right off the street and whisk us to free VIP tables more often than not.

 

An insight into the madness... lol

[toolforgrowth]

If you feel such a philosophy for men is genuinely needed, how can we go about affirming to men that they do have value beyond their relationships?

 

With the exception of a few loudly vocal outliers, feminism is an overall positive message. I think that if feminism offered the same message to men as well, men could reap the same benefits. Feminism really isn't "feminine" in the literal sense of the word; it won't make a guy cross dress or suddenly enjoy fellatio. The term feminism was coined as a means of escaping nineteenth century male bondage, and you'll get no argument from me about that. But what it can do is send an overall positive message to not just women, but everybody, that it's okay to be okay with yourself.

 

I'll leave this with a caveat; the message isn't always male friendly. This only creates further divide. I have an overall positive few of feminists and feminism, but it's not an easy relationship.

 

I wish it were, though.

[toolforgrowth]

And feeling unworthy of love is by far the biggest indicator for things like crime and suicide and other self-destructive behaviours. Not surprising that a lot of the men that clearly feel unworthy of love on LS have also expressed suicidal ideation.

 

EXACTLY.

 

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