I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

December 2, 2014

And sorry if you already explained this, but how in the world did you manage to get in contact with his ex and find out all of those details about their relationship??

December 2, 2014

And sorry if you already explained this, but how in the world did you manage to get in contact with his ex and find out all of those details about their relationship??

It's not as stalkerish as it sounds

When he and I first met and added each other on Facebook, this girl sent me a friend request a couple days later. I saw that she was a mutual friend of his, so I just accepted, thinking she was some friend or family member or acquaintance. I told him, "Your friend so-and-so added me on Facebook" and he said "She's crazy." And I said "oh really?" I said, "I don't know her, she just added me." And he said, "You don't want to know her. I don't care for her." This would have been a good opportunity for him to tell me she was his ex, right? But did he? No.

So later on, when he was ignoring me, I reached out to her and just asked if she had a moment to talk (we hadn't yet talked at all, but she'd liked some of my posts and stuff). I asked her how well she knew him, and told her that I had messed things up and was upset and didn't know how to get through to him. Basically just asking for a little input, because I was soooo confused. And she said she knew him really well, said they had lived together for 2 years. So I said oh, we're you just roommates or did you date him? Then she started filling me in, and we just started talking. I had no clue she was his ex at first. When I told her that he was ignoring me, she said "It gets worse" and started telling me about all the times he'd disappeared on her. We hung out together once after that, because we had so much in common, and she told me more and more. I messaged him that we were hanging out - kind of threw it in his face. 2 days before I hung out with her, he had actually messaged that he missed me and wanted to get together, but I told him no because he was too drunk to drive to come get me. I haven't mentioned that here before, because I didn't feel it meant much - he was drunk when he told me he missed me, ya know? So then a day or two later I said "I'm going to hang out with so-and-so, is that weird?" He said "yes" and then went back to completely ignoring me again. I messaged him all night while I was with her, saying we were having fun, and he should come over. Just obnoxious on my part.

The second time when we started hanging out again, he said "Let me tell you about this girl. That girl is craaaaazy. Every time I get close to someone, she befriends them so that she can find out what I'm up to." Then he told me they dated 6 months and she stalked him for 2 years (in reality, they were living together for those 2 years and he was coming and going at will). I just told him we didn't need to talk about it, because I didn't want to betray her by agreeing with him, nor did I want to ruin my chances with him by disagreeing.

So that's how that all happened!

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

December 2, 2014

I say this with love. So much of that is insanely unhealthy and abnormal -- reaching out to a total stranger to dissect and analyze a fling you had with a man you'd known for less than 60 days, hanging out with her after you already knew the nature of their relationship and throwing it in his face / inviting him to join the two of you , accepting what you knew were lies about their relationship for fear of upsetting the apple cart.

I do not think this man is a good person, and I think he has used you to a degree, knowing full well that he does not want a relationship with you. But I also think you have your own issues that need resolving before you'd be able to have a normal and healthy relationship, even with a man who is totally emotionally available to you.

December 2, 2014

I say this with love. So much of that is insanely unhealthy and abnormal -- reaching out to a total stranger to dissect and analyze a fling you had with a man you'd known for less than 60 days, hanging out with her after you already knew the nature of their relationship and throwing it in his face / inviting him to join the two of you , accepting what you knew were lies about their relationship for fear of upsetting the apple cart.

I do not think this man is a good person, and I think he has used you to a degree, knowing full well that he does not want a relationship with you. But I also think you have your own issues that need resolving before you'd be able to have a normal and healthy relationship, even with a man who is totally emotionally available to you.

I agree with you completely. That's why I keep pointing out that I screwed this thing up and sabotaged it over and over again. I'm appalled at most of what I did. I was stuck in this state of desperation when he was ignoring me, and I acted terribly. I might relay some of it in a light manner, but that's because I can easily look back and see the total absurdity of it all. During those two months, I was not only hurt and sad, but my ego took a huge blow as well. I'd send a message, not get a response, and then send another in an attempt to save face from the last one. Sometimes it almost felt like I needed to "win," i.e. get some response out of him. Sometimes I felt angry that he wouldn't even acknowledge my existence, so I did things like throwing it in his face about his ex. I was A MESS. I have no problem admitting this, because I need to learn from it and never ever go down that kind of rabbit hole again.

I do think I learned from it. I won't put myself in that situation again, or stoop to that level. I haven't done any of that this time after ending it, and I won't, no matter what he does or doesn't do. And I'll never ever do any of that with anyone else in the future, either. It was desperate, needy, immature, unhealthy, unattractive behavior. And I put myself in that situation in the first place by going about it the way I did when I ended it with him. Everything after that was a snowball effect, as I lost more and more dignity and self-respect.

Who WOULD want to be with me after all that? Geez.

ETA: That said, though, I will say this too (because I'm starting to feel down on myself again and like it was all my fault): Who HASN'T acted "crazy" after a breakup? It brings out the absolute worst in us.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

December 2, 2014

He told you he viewed what you had as just a friendship before you went crazypants on him. Before. You have to keep remembering that. It was a grand romance to you -- but he told you that though his lens, the two of you were just friends. He was ignoring you before you reached out to his ex and formed that odd friendship with her. It was "screwed up" from the gate because he never wanted what you wanted. Continuing to blame yourself is an easy way to get sucked back into the mindset of "Well, I broke it -- that must mean there's a way for me to fix it!"

December 2, 2014

But I also think you have your own issues that need resolving before you'd be able to have a normal and healthy relationship, even with a man who is totally emotionally available to you.

Hi Snowflake88 AlwaysPuzzled her attachment-style fearful-avoidance does in fact already holds this message.

December 2, 2014

That's why I keep pointing out that I screwed this thing up and sabotaged it
over and over again. I'm appalled at most of what I did.

You didn't screw up anything. This guy was never going to commit to you anyway. He is having the time of his life living with his parents, going out drinking, getting all the girls he wants because he's "gorgeous". Don't waste anymore of your brain space on this guy. You were never going to be his girl. Think about how horrible he treated you that made you break it off with him time and time again.

December 2, 2014

He told you he viewed what you had as just a friendship before you went crazypants on him. Before. You have to keep remembering that. It was a grand romance to you -- but he told you that though his lens, the two of you were just friends. He was ignoring you before you reached out to his ex and formed that odd friendship with her. It was "screwed up" from the gate because he never wanted what you wanted. Continuing to blame yourself is an easy way to get sucked back into the mindset of "Well, I broke it -- that must mean there's a way for me to fix it!"

Here's a question. At what point is too soon to have the "what are we" conversation? I need to know this. If I had asked him at one week what we are, would that have been too soon? Can you expect someone to "commit" or define something as more than just friends just one week in? What about three weeks? Because that's the first time we had that convo - a mere three week into whatever we were doing. And at that point, he said it was "too soon" and we were friends "for now." The second time was a few days before we hit the 6-week mark, and I asked out of nowhere via text. There are surely better ways to approach the subject, and if you catch someone off guard, or ask them in a defensive manner, are they REALLY going to give you the answer you're so obviously fishing for?

I guess I don't get why everyone is so hung up on this "just friends" thing. People move at different paces in relationships. No one wants to be forced or tricked into making something official, especially when you've just barely gotten started together. I honestly feel that I asked too soon. I had a previous bf ask a couple weeks in to be my boyfriend, and even though we had been having great fun and I liked him a whole lot, I felt a bit weirded out by it. I said yes because it was easier than saying no. I just went with it, but it felt too soon, and it kind of set the tone of the relationship going forward - I started feeling a bit smothered. If he had waited, things could have grown more organically. So I really do think there is such a thing as asking too soon, and no matter how much someone may like you, you will probably not get the answer that you want because it's too much pressure. Or if you do get the answer you want, they might start feeling smothered and trapped and resentful. So that was my mistake #1. The second time I asked, I just sprung it on him out of nowhere over text during an obviously stressful moment for him. His parents had just recently returned, he wasn't feeling good about living with them, he was already deciding on a trip to the beach just to get away from them for a bit. And here I come, asking in a defensive way what we are, adding more stress and pressure and decision-making upon him. So that was my mistake #2.

Really does no one see it this way?!? He made it clear in every other way that he liked me and wanted to be with me. Having said that, I did take great offense to the "friends" term, and instead of attempting to communicate about what that meant to him, I immediately turned cold and angrily called things off. That was mistake #3. Then when he tried to be friendly over the next few days, I continued to be cold and angry. Though I hate to admit this, I actually felt a bit cocky because he was trying to keep something going, and I felt I had the upper hand in the moment. I realized I was feeling that way, and I didn't like it, so I said let's just never talk again and i deleted him off Facebook. That whole sequence was mistake #5. Then I proceeded to turn right around and desperately try to cling back onto him, which is when the two months started.

This is why i do feel it's my fault. And for a long while, I like you say thought that maybe I could fix it. But now, laying it all out like this, I realize that the damage was done.

I'm not frustrated at any of you. I'm frustrated with myself.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled
typing too fast on phone = tons of typos

December 2, 2014

Hi Snowflake88 AlwaysPuzzled her attachment-style fearful-avoidance does in fact already holds this message.

I'm my own worst enemy. Because of my fearful-avoidance (which I only recently found a name and description for), I do these types of things with EVERYONE. I call things off with EVERY guy I meet, over and over again. I've done it with friends, even. The second the fear sets in, I sabotage things. That's why in cases like this, with him, I can never really be sure if I screwed it up or it was bound to fail anyways... because I never give things a chance.

I'm sitting here on the verge of tears because it's so very frustrating.

December 2, 2014

You didn't screw up anything. This guy was never going to commit to you anyway. He is having the time of his life living with his parents, going out drinking, getting all the girls he wants because he's "gorgeous". Don't waste anymore of your brain space on this guy. You were never going to be his girl. Think about how horrible he treated you that made you break it off with him time and time again.

Thank you <3 <3 <3

December 2, 2014

Like snowflakes88, I'm saying this with the best possible intentions, but unlike snowflakes88, I'm hopelessly ineloquent and blunt: you need to start focusing on yourself. You may have gotten past your worst point, but you're still in a place of severe emotional distress and are prone to bad judgment. If you're sincere about wanting to heal, you need to find a psychologist to help you resolve your difficulties. This is no longer about him, it's about you.

When I first posted in this thread I noted the significant discrepancy between the situation you described and the way it looked to everyone else, and suggested that maybe you were an unreliable narrator. I didn't mean it in a malicious sense, only that there seemed to be a very real difference in what you and the rest of us were perceiving. A psychologist can help you bridge that gap.

There also seems to be a discrepancy in your awareness and comprehension. Trust me, you're not an idiot; if anything, you're hyperaware of what's going on around you. However, I don't think you necessarily comprehend it. You are aware of what everyone else is saying but you don't comprehend what it means. Instead you tell the story of your relationship over and over, rewriting it each time so that the evidence suggests there's still a chance for you two. When other people explain why that's unrealistic, you justify your behavior by pointing to anecdotal evidence and articles on the Internet.

snowflakes88 is absolutely right in that you're doing this to keep the memories of your "relationship" alive. You're aware that you're doing this, but don't seem to understand how much it hurts you when you continue to do it. Nearly twenty pages later you're still asking people to relive your relationship in hypothetical scenarios, as though it could somehow justify an outcome in which he wants to be with you.

Despite your claims of progress you still sound very unstable. You explained that your interaction with his ex "wasn't as stalkerish as it sounds" and said you were being "just obnoxious". When snowflakes88 pointed out that your behavior was in fact very unhealthy and manipulative, you immediately swung in the other direction and went off on how unacceptable it all was, but emphasized that it was in your distant past. In claiming that you've learned from your bad behavior and would never do it again, you seem to be minimizing it rather than comprehending it. It's not something that happened years and years ago; this is very recent, and it's affecting you today. Your judgment is still compromised.

Here's an example:

It really hurts that he doesn't even care enough to reach out and say hello. Why doesn't he?!? We had a great time together, we got along great, we got to know each other so well...Or do I just not exist to him anymore? That's what it feels like.

You badgered him relentlessly for two months, hung out with his ex as a means of taunting him, repeatedly shut him down, and yet you still ask why he doesn't care. You are aware of what happened but can't seem to comprehend how this would affect your situation.

I'm also kind of perplexed by stuff like this:

That said, it seems that most of the dating pool is filled with emotionally unavailable people. They're all that are left. The more secure individuals are already in relationships with other secure individuals.

This comes off as a desperate last-ditch attempt to justify your pursuit of an alcoholic who lives with his parents. I have a hard time believing that you believe this, because it's such a strange thing to say. You're saying that there are no stable people to love you so you should take what little you can get. This isn't about having low self-esteem, this is about making excuses.

Let's be real: he does not care. It's not a matter of "he probably doesn't care" or "it's unlikely that this can be salvaged". He doesn't, and it can't. But he is no longer the issue. It's all about you. Please find a trusted professional who can help you.

December 2, 2014

Here's a question. At what point is too soon to have the "what are we" conversation? I need to know this. If I had asked him at one week what we are, would that have been too soon? Can you expect someone to "commit" or define something as more than just friends just one week in? What about three weeks? Because that's the first time we had that convo - a mere three week into whatever we were doing. And at that point, he said it was "too soon" and we were friends "for now." The second time was a few days before we hit the 6-week mark, and I asked out of nowhere via text. There are surely better ways to approach the subject, and if you catch someone off guard, or ask them in a defensive manner, are they REALLY going to give you the answer you're so obviously fishing for?

I guess I don't get why everyone is so hung up on this "just friends" thing. People move at different paces in relationships. No one wants to be forced or tricked into making something official, especially when you've just barely gotten started together. I honestly feel that I asked too soon. I had a previous bf ask a couple weeks in to be my boyfriend, and even though we had been having great fun and I liked him a whole lot, I felt a bit weirded out by it. I said yes because it was easier than saying no. I just went with it, but it felt too soon, and it kind of set the tone of the relationship going forward - I started feeling a bit smothered. If he had waited, things could have grown more organically. So I really do think there is such a thing as asking too soon, and no matter how much someone may like you, you will probably not get the answer that you want because it's too much pressure. Or if you do get the answer you want, they might start feeling smothered and trapped and resentful. So that was my mistake #1. The second time I asked, I just sprung it on him out of nowhere over text during an obviously stressful moment for him. His parents had just recently returned, he wasn't feeling good about living with them, he was already deciding on a trip to the beach just to get away from them for a bit. And here I come, asking in a defensive way what we are, adding more stress and pressure and decision-making upon him. So that was my mistake #2.

Really does no one see it this way?!? He made it clear in every other way that he liked me and wanted to be with me. Having said that, I did take great offense to the "friends" term, and instead of attempting to communicate about what that meant to him, I immediately turned cold and angrily called things off. That was mistake #3. Then when he tried to be friendly over the next few days, I continued to be cold and angry. Though I hate to admit this, I actually felt a bit cocky because he was trying to keep something going, and I felt I had the upper hand in the moment. I realized I was feeling that way, and I didn't like it, so I said let's just never talk again and i deleted him off Facebook. That whole sequence was mistake #5. Then I proceeded to turn right around and desperately try to cling back onto him, which is when the two months started.

This is why i do feel it's my fault. And for a long while, I like you say thought that maybe I could fix it. But now, laying it all out like this, I realize that the damage was done.

I'm not frustrated at any of you. I'm frustrated with myself.

Were you sleeping over at his house 3 weeks in?

Were you having sex with him 3 weeks in?

Allowing him access to your body 3 weeks in?

It's mind-blowing to me that some women will justify engaging in all sorts of physical intimacy right off the bat, then turn around and convince themselves that they've done something wrong by inquiring where they stand with the person they are intimate with. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all timeline, but if you're sleeping with someone, you have every right to know how he views what you have going on. And if you're not comfortable asking those questions ____ weeks in, you should probably not be having sex ____ weeks in, because for the vast majority of us, those two things go hand in hand.

Again, you're seeking every possible explanation for him not wanting to be your boyfriend other than the obvious -- that he did not want to be your boyfriend. "I asked too soon!" "I asked over text!" "I asked when he was upset about his living situation!" "I was wearing a green shirt when I asked!" None of that matters, when you get down to it. If you inquired after 3 weeks where he saw things going -- after being intimate and spending non-stop time together, according to you -- a man who had any intention of pursuing a relationship with you would not have responded that you were "just friends." Even if he wasn't ready to jump headfirst into a relationship, there are a million other ways to answer that question if that's ultimately your intention. "We're dating." "We're getting to know each other to see if a relationship is something we might want." Something that would reassure you about his intentions and where things were going, so that he didn't run the risk of losing you. Not, "we're just friends."

You keep saying he made it clear he wanted to be with you, but how? Through his actions during the 3 weeks you spent with him at his parents' house in the very beginning?? Absolutely nothing he has said or done since that time suggests even slightly that he was seeking a relationship with you. Nothing. And again, I'm saying this from a place of understanding b/c I'm dealing with such a similar situation. Who cares if he said you could be the one and stroked your hair just so and held your hand and cuddled you and you had great fun -- when at the end of the day, he's told you flat out (1) he viewed you two as friends and (2) he felt you wanted more than he did? All of those lovey things become moot when someone expresses they are not on the same page as you are. They should, anyway.

But to answer your question -- no, I don't think anybody else sees it this way. You are the only person in the thread who believes you had anything to really mess up in the first place, and it sounds like the people you've talked to IRL about this agree. That should say something to you.

December 2, 2014

I still wanted to answer on this:

Maybe his "just friends" thing was another deactivating strategy, said to keep me at bay. I know a lot of people here think it's naive to think of it that way, but I think that you at least understand, from all your reading and research. It somehow hurts less if this is indeed what it was. I don't think I'm twisting the truth though - he really really seems to have deep avoidant issues. He said he wouldn't even miss his own parents if he moved out of state, and they have a great relationship, no turmoil. Wouldn't most people miss their parents? I would.

The difference is that their need for wanting them close is different: http://www.mishpaha.org.il/kvatzim/pdf/Tatkin-Addiction-to-Alone-Time.pdf

Your sentence about it dashing your hopes is interesting, because I'm the opposite. For some reason, it has raised my hopes. I feel like if you can fully understand something, you can "fix" it. Your view is more realistic than mine, I am sure.

I'm my own worst enemy. Because of my fearful-avoidance (which I only recently found a name and description for), I do these types of things with EVERYONE. I call things off with EVERY guy I meet, over and over again. I've done it with friends, even. The second the fear sets in, I sabotage things. That's why in cases like this, with him, I can never really be sure if I screwed it up or it was bound to fail anyways... because I never give things a chance.

I'm sitting here on the verge of tears because it's so very frustrating.

We can’t change other people if they do not want to change themselves.

But you know, I think you are doing really well reflecting, I often read that people who are fearful avoidant are unable or unwilling to share their thoughts or feelings to others. You seem pretty good at reflecting, it is a skill many people find hard. I do hope though that you try to find a good therapist to work on these matters. I also really like to see you having more self-esteem, you blame yourself way to much!

December 2, 2014

Something else to consider. You rely almost entirely on the 3 weeks you spent with him in the beginning as the basis for this unshakeable connection -- but you say in your original post that both of you were usually drinking during that timespan, and that things were less amazing when you two were not drinking. Does it not set off any alarm bells for you that the few weeks you've let make you so crazy for so long now weren't even spent sober, for the most part?

December 2, 2014

Hi Snowflake88 AlwaysPuzzled her attachment-style fearful-avoidance does in fact already holds this message.

I see, and I think it's great that AP is self-aware. I just think it would be awesome if she could deal with her own issues independently, instead of viewing them in tandem with this particular situation and convincing herself that she is to blame as a result.

(Sorry to talk about you "behind your back," Always )

December 2, 2014

Like snowflakes88, I'm saying this with the best possible intentions, but unlike snowflakes88, I'm hopelessly ineloquent and blunt: you need to start focusing on yourself. You may have gotten past your worst point, but you're still in a place of severe emotional distress and are prone to bad judgment. If you're sincere about wanting to heal, you need to find a psychologist to help you resolve your difficulties. This is no longer about him, it's about you.

When I first posted in this thread I noted the significant discrepancy between the situation you described and the way it looked to everyone else, and suggested that maybe you were an unreliable narrator. I didn't mean it in a malicious sense, only that there seemed to be a very real difference in what you and the rest of us were perceiving. A psychologist can help you bridge that gap.

There also seems to be a discrepancy in your awareness and comprehension. Trust me, you're not an idiot; if anything, you're hyperaware of what's going on around you. However, I don't think you necessarily comprehend it. You are aware of what everyone else is saying but you don't comprehend what it means. Instead you tell the story of your relationship over and over, rewriting it each time so that the evidence suggests there's still a chance for you two. When other people explain why that's unrealistic, you justify your behavior by pointing to anecdotal evidence and articles on the Internet.

snowflakes88 is absolutely right in that you're doing this to keep the memories of your "relationship" alive. You're aware that you're doing this, but don't seem to understand how much it hurts you when you continue to do it. Nearly twenty pages later you're still asking people to relive your relationship in hypothetical scenarios, as though it could somehow justify an outcome in which he wants to be with you.

You badgered him relentlessly for two months, hung out with his ex as a means of taunting him, repeatedly shut him down, and yet you still ask why he doesn't care. You are aware of what happened but can't seem to comprehend how this would affect your situation.

Let's be real: he does not care. It's not a matter of "he probably doesn't care" or "it's unlikely that this can be salvaged". He doesn't, and it can't. But he is no longer the issue. It's all about you. Please find a trusted professional who can help you.

I get what you're saying here. And yes, I AM in the midst of emotional distress. When you get burned, it takes time to heal - in the meantime, anything that touches it causes pain.

I don't believe that I am delusional or unwilling to accept reality. I hate to say this AGAIN, but nothing in life is black and while. None of you know what he's thinking or feeling any more than I do. The point that I've been trying to make here is that people have their own issues that may cause them to act in ways other than how we think they "should" act. I will try to quit going off on tangents where I start giving excuse after excuse for the way he's acting, tempting though it may be. But I would like to offer ONE more example just to get my point across, because maybe I'm not articulating it clearly. My half-brother is a recovering alcoholic who no longer drinks. But for YEARS, while he was drinking all the time, he was constantly blowing my dad off - wouldn't answer the phone, bailed out at the last minute for holiday get togethers, never called and kept in touch. It made me angry to watch, because it hurt my dad SO much. I was not as sensitive as I should have been, so I was always telling my dad that my half-brother was just an assh0le, and that he didn't care about my dad, and that my dad should just forget about him. That seemed to be the reality of it. I just offer this as yet another example that it's not always that someone just *doesn't care* about a person.

I guess it just really hurts to be told that this guy doesn't care, never cared, and that I mean absolutely nothing to him. That isn't something that I want to believe, nor is it something that I really do believe deep down. I do think he cared. I shouldn't be so defensive about it, but for some reason I am.

I guess I came here for two reasons: 1) I wanted to know if there was any way to get him back, and 2) I was seeking some absolute view on the whole situation. I really was hoping to find a black or white answer! But I quickly realized that there just isn't one. It's no more complicated than anyone else's situations, but it IS complicated, because RELATIONSHIPS are complicated. You have two people coming together, both of whom have histories and baggage and past hurts and faults and walls up and defensive behaviors they've acquired over the years. And you never have full information about anyone other than yourself. I wanted to figure out what he's thinking, but none of us know.

Despite your claims of progress you still sound very unstable. You explained that your interaction with his ex "wasn't as stalkerish as it sounds" and said you were being "just obnoxious". When snowflakes88 pointed out that your behavior was in fact very unhealthy and manipulative, you immediately swung in the other direction and went off on how unacceptable it all was, but emphasized that it was in your distant past. In claiming that you've learned from your bad behavior and would never do it again, you seem to be minimizing it rather than comprehending it. It's not something that happened years and years ago; this is very recent, and it's affecting you today. Your judgment is still compromised.

I realize it hasn't been that long ago, but does that matter? I can look back now and see what I was doing, and see how unhealthy it was. I'm still having unhealthy thought patterns, obviously, but I'm no longer engaging in unhealthy behaviors. I learned my lesson. I'm not minimizing it, and I AM comprehending it. I FULLY see it for what it was. The important thing is that I never do that again, and I won't. If I hadn't learned from it, I'd probably still be doing it right now. Instead, I "ended" things with him, and I have not one single time gone back and tried to reverse that. I said hello and happy thanksgiving, but I'm no longer messaging him. I'm not trying to get him back in any way, shape, or form, even if I'm talking here about wishing there was some way.

You're saying that there are no stable people to love you so you should take what little you can get. This isn't about having low self-esteem, this is about making excuses.

This comes off as a desperate last-ditch attempt to justify your pursuit of an alcoholic who lives with his parents. I have a hard time believing that you believe this, because it's such a strange thing to say.

No. This is about statistics, really. Most people who are capable of healthy, loving relationships are already IN one. Most secure people have already found another secure mate (at least by the time you reach your late 30's) and are sticking with them. There is a really good chance that the people who are left, are left single because they have difficulties in relationships, or because they feel they don't want or need one at all. I don't see why this viewpoint is "strange". And my saying this has nothing to do with him... I was talking about the dating pool in general.

I agree that it would be helpful to get therapy, but it's not something I can just find and jump into right away. I don't have the insurance or income, for one. For two, I've been to therapists before, and they weren't good fits. For reasons beyond my understanding, they never seemed to want to work with me on my relationship problems. I guess it's because they were focused on one goal or another, and it didn't always align with my goal. I've previously seen someone about anxiety issues (driving anxiety, anxiety around people, that kind of thing), and family problems. I would really like to see someone specifically about my relationship troubles, but it's not something I can come upon tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm doing the best that I can here - reading articles, talking to you guys, journaling, thinking things through. I'm not a TOTAL basketcase. We all have our issues.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AlwaysPuzzled

December 2, 2014

You're saying that there are no stable people to love you so you should take what little you can get. This isn't about having low self-esteem, this is about making excuses.

This comes off as a desperate last-ditch attempt to justify your pursuit of an alcoholic who lives with his parents. I have a hard time believing that you believe this, because it's such a strange thing to say.
No. This is about statistics, really. Most people who are capable of healthy, loving relationships are already IN one. Most secure people have already found another secure mate (at least by the time you reach your late 30's) and are sticking with them. There is a really good chance that the people who are left, are left single because they have difficulties in relationships, or because they feel they don't want or need one at all. I don't see why this viewpoint is "strange". And my saying this has nothing to do with him... I was talking about the dating pool in general.

True, this point is frequently made by researchers who research attachment. Or see Dating Pool Danger: Harder to Find Good Partners After 30 | Jeb Kinnison

December 2, 2014

True, this point is frequently made by researchers who research attachment. Or see Dating Pool Danger: Harder to Find Good Partners After 30 | Jeb Kinnison

Well. That's depressing, lolol.

December 3, 2014

I still wanted to answer on this:

The difference is that their need for wanting them close is different: http://www.mishpaha.org.il/kvatzim/pdf/Tatkin-Addiction-to-Alone-Time.pdf

We can’t change other people if they do not want to change themselves.

But you know, I think you are doing really well reflecting, I often read that people who are fearful avoidant are unable or unwilling to share their thoughts or feelings to others. You seem pretty good at reflecting, it is a skill many people find hard. I do hope though that you try to find a good therapist to work on these matters. I also really like to see you having more self-esteem, you blame yourself way to much!

Thank you for the link, I'll read the article tonight. I really appreciate all the links you give me.

And THANK YOU for the compliment on my self-reflection. I feel it's the only way to gain enough self-awareness to grow into a better, more healthy person. I have no problem whatsoever with admitting my faults and issues and short-comings. They exist, so I see no reason to hide them.

December 3, 2014

True, this point is frequently made by researchers who research attachment. Or see Dating Pool Danger: Harder to Find Good Partners After 30 | Jeb Kinnison

THANK YOU. Yes, it is true.

December 3, 2014

But just because the dating pool is restricted and the chances of finding a great partner are reduced, it is still no excuse to spend time hankering after a guy who obviously isn't into you, who is a "free spirit", an alcoholic and who lives with his parents in his late 30s.

He is such a good catch, not!!

December 3, 2014

Something else to consider. You rely almost entirely on the 3 weeks you spent with him in the beginning as the basis for this unshakeable connection -- but you say in your original post that both of you were usually drinking during that timespan, and that things were less amazing when you two were not drinking. Does it not set off any alarm bells for you that the few weeks you've let make you so crazy for so long now weren't even spent sober, for the most part?

It was 6 weeks, not 3.

I've considered this, too, and I think that's a good point. Things were just fine when we were sober, but we were both more reserved. I for one am a lot more guarded while sober, less able to be affectionate, have more walls up, have more worries floating around in my subconscious. I'm a lot looser and more open while drinking, and he's the same. But yes, this is a valid consideration.

December 3, 2014

I see, and I think it's great that AP is self-aware. I just think it would be awesome if she could deal with her own issues independently, instead of viewing them in tandem with this particular situation and convincing herself that she is to blame as a result.

(Sorry to talk about you "behind your back," Always )

I guess I feel like it's hard to work on relationship issues when you're not actually in a relationship. How can I work on things like communication skills, defense mechanisms, avoidant behavior, etc, when it's just me, myself, and I? If nothing else comes out of this situation with him, I need to at least learn enough that the whole painful ordeal doesn't repeat itself with someone new in the future. I didn't foresee my thing with him triggering all this stuff, but it did, and now I have to work through it.

December 3, 2014

Were you sleeping over at his house 3 weeks in?
Were you having sex with him 3 weeks in?
Allowing him access to your body 3 weeks in?

It's mind-blowing to me that some women will justify engaging in all sorts of physical intimacy right off the bat, then turn around and convince themselves that they've done something wrong by inquiring where they stand with the person they are intimate with. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all timeline, but if you're sleeping with someone, you have every right to know how he views what you have going on. And if you're not comfortable asking those questions ____ weeks in, you should probably not be having sex ____ weeks in, because for the vast majority of us, those two things go hand in hand.

Sex just wasn't hardly a part of it. I don't care much about sex. I'm all about the physical closeness - the cuddling and holding hands and sleeping in each other's arms, all that feel-good stuff. I don't feel comfortable having sex with someone in the very beginning. He didn't seem too concerned about sex either. He wanted it several times, but we would try to start and then be too drunk to follow through. I figured out early on that this would always be the case (because he was always soo drunk), and so I didn't worry about having sex too soon because I knew it just wasn't gonna happen. We only had "actual" sex one, two times at the most. This would probably be a problem or deal-breaker for most of you, but for me it was perfect!!! I knew he wanted me, and that was enough. I was relieved that he couldn't follow through (I really don't know how graphic to get about that here, so I'll just leave it at that). And before anyone starts saying that he must not have been attracted to me, this was not the case - it was clear that he was attracted and turned on and wanted it. His ex said he always had the same problem with her.

December 3, 2014

Well. That's depressing, lolol.

There is zero information about the precise sample size or type of study, and we know nothing about the methodology except that it's "simplified" (which hardly suggests rigor). And the author is shilling a book. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Elaine's point is valid: just because you can't have the prince doesn't mean you settle for a toad.

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