Are you a feminist?

[BlueIris]

Yes, I’m a feminist. I call myself that.

 

Some self-professed feminists view it or act differently than I do, and some non-feminists or anti-feminists actually live and believe in gender equality. Also, lots of people use it as a dirty word and assign nasty attributes to feminism. But that’s because people often label themselves one way and then act or believe things contrary to the definition of the label they apply- in religion, politics, economics, even values or personality. Since I was raised Christian and had a grandfather who was a minister, I first saw it in some people who claimed to be devout Christians. Now, I just expect that some people use a label in a way that I don’t. Many don't know or care about the actual meaning of the labels and act (and actually think) inconsistently with the labels they apply to themselves. Sometimes it's just plain Orwellian. Sometimes people USE labels to justify battle and prejudice, not because they care about the labels but because they just are combative or prejudiced people.

Edited October 29, 2014 by BlueIris

[boilingpoint]

If female issues involve both rights and personal responsibilities (responsibility to ourselves, and responsibility towards others/respect for their rights) then that seems like a good step towards egalitarianism to me.

 

Anti-feminists will always insist on perceiving feminism as something that is concerned purely with female entitlement and our sense of our own rights. There's nothing to be done about that. People are entitled to perceive things however they want. Just don't expect the people or philosophies you've decided to adopt a particular perception of to define themselves in accordance with your terms.

 

Well there's no doubt feminism has done a good job on helping women i.e. voting, positive discrimination in work, legal rights for women during divorce... etc

 

But what about male issues? Do you know what they even are? I'll tell you what feminism has done for that... big fat nothing.

 

Feminism has done a good job giving women more choices and rights since the 40s but after that, because of the constant bitching and resulting reverence for all the 'saint' like women in the western world, it has probably become a lot better being a woman than a man (all other things being equal etc)

 

So as a man, I'll say that I definitely feel alienated when I listen to woman's hour on Radio 1 where they are laboriously nitpicking about whatever troubles women still have in the western world or when I still read dumb articles about why men are still boorish idiots and just need to leave women alone...

 

I think that last part might eventually happen more regularly, so be careful what you wish for.

Edited October 29, 2014 by boilingpoint

[sillyanswer]

I read several definitions of feminism and they all basically said the same thing- feminism is the belief, ideology, ect. that says women should have the same rights that men have. That's it. Nothing else to it.

 

Ahh. In that case, no, I'm not a feminist. While I do believe that women should have those rights, I also firmly believe that men should have the same rights that women have. Which I think makes me something different from a feminist.

[camillalev]

Well there's no doubt feminism has done a good job on helping women i.e. voting, positive discrimination in work, legal rights for women during divorce... etc

 

But what about male issues? Do you know what they even are? I'll tell you what feminism has done for that... big fat nothing.

 

Feminism has done a good job giving women more choices and rights since the 40s but after that, because of the constant bitching and resulting reverence for all the 'saint' like women in the western world, it has probably become a lot better being a woman than a man (all other things being equal etc)

 

So as a man, I'll say that I definitely feel alienated when I listen to woman's hour on Radio 1 where they are laboriously nitpicking about whatever troubles women still have in the western world or when I still read dumb articles about why men are still boorish idiots and just need to leave women alone...

 

I think that last part might eventually happen more regularly, so be careful what you wish for.

 

 

Actually, it's through feminism that I learned about some of the things men face that it was not previously aware of : custody discrimination, no time off work for family, being judged and treated with suspicion when doing duties typically seen as female/mom duties. Etc etc. It comes from the belief that women are born to rear children and men are not capable if doing so, or are not capable of being loving / supportive., which is obviously not true. Most feminists would like this attitude to be gone.

[camillalev]

Ahh. In that case, no, I'm not a feminist. While I do believe that women should have those rights, I also firmly believe that men should have the same rights that women have. Which I think makes me something different from a feminist.

 

Actually, that WOULD make you a feminist.

 

It may be the "dictionary dedinition" focuses o women because women have historically been at a disadvantage, with men generally setting the rules and having most if the rights(obviously this more complicated than I'm able to express in one sentence). However, nowadays that we are mor on par(but with more work left to do) many feminists focus on and believe men should also have some of the rights that women have. Many if them would be quite ecstatic if we could stop assigning gender roles not only to women but men as well.

 

 

Feminism is not just about equal rights it's about balanced rights.

Edited October 29, 2014 by camillalev

[carhill]

Unfortunately, it wasn't very socially acceptable in my generation of young males to champion the rights of women under the definitions of feminism at that time so I found the fallout to be two-fold. It put me at odds with men, both socially and in the workplace, with workplace shunning being more evident. It also created issues in the interpersonal relations area because, while women apparently agreed with and appreciated the support, socially it wasn't 'manly' to support women's issues at that time and 'manly' was a big part of attraction at the time.

 

I learned most of what I knew about the subject from someone who had transitioned from the 'Rosie the riveter' of the 40's to the burgeoning feminist and independent woman of the 50's. That, combined with having a father who didn't subjugate women and generally spoke of and treated them as equals left me a bit ahead of the curve and out of place to a certain degree. It simply never occurred to me that women weren't 'equal', as I was socialized to view all people as 'equal', so when conflicts of that nature arose, I argued for equality.

 

Currently, I'd consider myself more a proponent of equal rights and responsibilities than a 'feminist'.

[pink_sugar]

Yes, I'd consider myself feminist, but I think feminists should be considered humanists in this day and age since it's essentially about rights and equality for all.

[thefooloftheyear]

Yes, I'd consider myself feminist, but I think feminists should be considered humanists in this day and age since it's essentially about rights and equality for all.

 

 

Not saying this is true of you of your statement, but why is it so painful for some to realize that men and women arent the same in most areas of life...??

 

 

You get this weird feeling among the hardcores that what they really want is one big "gender nuetral" society....I just dont get that ...Its neither practical or desirable, imo...

 

 

 

TFY

[Emilia]

Not saying this is true of you of your statement, but why is it so painful for some to realize that men and women arent the same in most areas of life...??

 

You get this weird feeling among the hardcores that what they really want is one big "gender nuetral" society....I just dont get that ...Its neither practical or desirable, imo...

 

 

TFY

But then by the same logic.... isn't it that you are behind the times? Because you listen to a 20 or 25 year-old and they don't talk like this and they are the future. They are seeing it a gender-neutral society. You are being left behind.

[BlueIris]

Not saying this is true of you of your statement, but why is it so painful for some to realize that men and women arent the same in most areas of life...??

 

You get this weird feeling among the hardcores that what they really want is one big "gender nuetral" society....I just dont get that ...Its neither practical or desirable, imo...

 

TFY

 

People can be different while still having equal "rights."

 

I disagree with you, though, that men and women "aren't the same in most areas of life." I think we are, in work and economic rights, legal rights, and our daily activities. Privately and sexually there might be differences, but even those are not hard and fast rules strictly by gender.

 

Sometimes people argue that the laws are not applied equally, but application of laws is a different issue and often individual, depending upon who is applying them or enforcing them.

[thefooloftheyear]

People can be different while still having equal "rights."

 

I disagree with you, though, that men and women "aren't the same in most areas of life." I think we are, in work and economic rights, legal rights, and our daily activities. Privately and sexually there might be differences, but even those are not hard and fast rules strictly by gender.

 

Sometimes people argue that the laws are not applied equally, but application of laws is a different issue and often individual, depending upon who is applying them or enforcing them.

 

 

So do you think its "right" that a woman gets a job with equal pay among a bunch of guys that are up to their asses in a pit runniing cables and digging ditches, while she stands outside like a fencepost with a flag in her hand??

 

Or that the NYFD needed to lower the standards of the physical prowess test to allow women to get a job as a firefighter??

 

TFY

[thefooloftheyear]

But then by the same logic.... isn't it that you are behind the times? Because you listen to a 20 or 25 year-old and they don't talk like this and they are the future. They are seeing it a gender-neutral society. You are being left behind.

 

 

First off I know of plenty of younger people (men and women) who disagree with the concept...And the ones that do, well, who says they are right and they are ahead of their time...??? Its entirely possible that the whole concept is determined to be ill advised...History is full of mores that once were considered "better" only to be debunked...

 

So lets both agree that neither of us can honestly speak for all of the younger generation..

 

TFY

[Woggle]

Actually, it's through feminism that I learned about some of the things men face that it was not previously aware of : custody discrimination, no time off work for family, being judged and treated with suspicion when doing duties typically seen as female/mom duties. Etc etc. It comes from the belief that women are born to rear children and men are not capable if doing so, or are not capable of being loving / supportive., which is obviously not true. Most feminists would like this attitude to be gone.

 

I appreciate you caring about these issues but discuss them in some radical feminist circles and see what kind of reaction you get. Go on a blog like Jezebel and others and say these same things. See how they react to it.

[pink_sugar]

I think when people say the word "feminist" it's like ignoring all the progressive movements that have happened. I think feminists are the ones who started and created history...granting women the right to vote, right to birth control and etc. I think humanist is a more current and appropriate term for those who are actively advocating equality.

[carhill]

Probably the two biggest areas I got grief were:

 

1. Reproductive choices - especially since I was indoctrinated rigid Catholic. I always felt women should have control of their bodies and, ergo, responsibility for their own reproductive choices

 

2. Right to work for an equivalent wage per skill set - It was common when I was young for women to be paid less simply because employers could get away with it and the prevalent sentiment of 'a man has a family to support'. Of course, that changed over time as more young women entered the workforce in skilled jobs. In my industry, employers simply didn't hire women, except perhaps as secretaries. I always thought that as odd, since women worked 'dirty' jobs in the past. Part of the 'equality' part was placing women in dangerous and life-threatening jobs, common in my industry. The males in charge apparently felt a paternalistic sentiment that women shouldn't be subjected to a 'man's job'.

 

Those are the two largest areas I got pushback on as a young man, from males.

[BlueIris]

So do you think its "right" that a woman gets a job with equal pay among a bunch of guys that are up to their asses in a pit runniing cables and digging ditches, while she stands outside like a fencepost with a flag in her hand??

 

Or that the NYFD needed to lower the standards of the physical prowess test to allow women to get a job as a firefighter??

 

TFY

 

I'm not familiar with those businesses and standards. I have seen male construction guys just standing around watching too, and can come up with Less Fit/Competent But Male examples too, though. I kind of laugh about a job I had decades ago as a surveyor. It was considered a man's job primarily because they marched around with boots in wooded areas. I was the first and only woman in that area in the company at the time. I held a stick most of the time! No one had to lift or carry anything heavy in the two years or so that I was there.

 

The original point was the inaccuracy of your statement: "why is it so painful for some to realize that men and women arent the same in most areas of life...?? It's such an overstatement. I'm in law and there's not anything a male lawyer can do that I can't. Same with all of the professions. And actually the best garage at the last town I lived in was owned and run by women. So, "most areas of life" is way off base, and it's not "so painful." That's just emotional arguing. Men! They're so emotional! (just teasing you!)

Edited October 29, 2014 by BlueIris

[Taramere]

Well there's no doubt feminism has done a good job on helping women i.e. voting, positive discrimination in work, legal rights for women during divorce... etc

 

But what about male issues? Do you know what they even are? I'll tell you what feminism has done for that... big fat nothing.

 

Did you happen to read any of my earlier posts. I know of one issue, and that is the difficulty men often face in family court. I'm a lawyer, and I've done pro bono (free) work for men in that situation. How about you?

[jay1983]

I am not sure what you mean but as far as feminism goes I don't follow anyone. My parents raised me to know that I can choose the path of my own life and I always have, so have my sisters. One of them is a stay at home mom, it's a choice she is happy with.

 

Honestly this thread surprises me, my friends and family don't have any problems with feminism.

 

There's a lot more it than having choices.

[jay1983]

Doesn't the Scum Manifesto actually advocate exterminating men?

 

Dude, stay away from the feminist boards and comment sections. Those are the crazy people.

[Maleficent]

So do you think its "right" that a woman gets a job with equal pay among a bunch of guys that are up to their asses in a pit runniing cables and digging ditches, while she stands outside like a fencepost with a flag in her hand??

 

Or that the NYFD needed to lower the standards of the physical prowess test to allow women to get a job as a firefighter??

 

TFY

 

I don't agree with the first one. But the second one (lowering the standards in tests for women) yes because it's a fact women are less strong than men naturally.

Otherwise, the Olympics would be co-ed.

[Woggle]

I don't agree with the first one. But the second one (lowering the standards in tests for women) yes because it's a fact women are less strong than men naturally.

Otherwise, the Olympics would be co-ed.

 

This might be true but real life when you are a firefighter is not going to take it easier on a woman. If they can meet the standards by all means they should have the job but don't lower them in a job that requires physical strength.

[veggirl]

F*ck yeah I'm a feminist. Any woman who says she isn't....no sorry I don't get that and I never will.

 

I also HATE people who immediately get defensive "like yeah I believe in equal rights but I'm not a FEMINIST" as though it's a dirty word.

[Maleficent]

This might be true but real life when you are a firefighter is not going to take it easier on a woman. If they can meet the standards by all means they should have the job but don't lower them in a job that requires physical strength.

 

Firefighters don't carry people out the window on their shoulders. That's in the movies.

 

Women are just as capable firefighters as men.

[Maleficent]

F*ck yeah I'm a feminist. Any woman who says she isn't....no sorry I don't get that and I never will.

 

I also HATE people who immediately get defensive "like yeah I believe in equal rights but I'm not a FEMINIST" as though it's a dirty word.

 

I also hate that it has because a shameful thing to say.

But man some are pushing my limit of tolerance.

[boilingpoint]

Did you happen to read any of my earlier posts. I know of one issue, and that is the difficulty men often face in family court. I'm a lawyer, and I've done pro bono (free) work for men in that situation. How about you?

 

No I didn't and I can't be bothered to.

 

So you know of ONE issue, which is the most obvious i.e. men usually get shafted during divorce proceedings... and you've helped a guy out here and there - doesn't mean feminism as a movement has done anything to initiate that.

 

I helped a guy out once too - he was homeless and I gave him some money... wait... it was a homeless GUY. Did you ever notice that most homeless people are men?