veggirl Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 To those who dont like or believe in feminism, what is it you want then? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 To those who dont like or believe in feminism, what is it you want then? I support the basic ideas of feminism. I don't support what it has often devolved into. If some of them had their way men and women would have almost nothing to do with each other anymore. They have done to feminism what the religious right has done to Christianity. A few women on this board said they support fathers rights and other men's issues. Go on your average feminist blog and express support for these issues and see what kind of reaction you get. I don't support gender warriors whether they are male or female. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Did you ever notice that most homeless people are men? What does that mean to you? You know that alcohol, drugs, violence, burning bridges with family and friends, etc. very often has something to do with homelessness. Males tend to act out more violently in society. It's also not as dangerous for a male to sleep out on the street or travel around alone as a female. Even most drugged out females know enough to get shelter somewhere so they won't be raped. Link to post Share on other sites
jay1983 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 To those who dont like or believe in feminism, what is it you want then? A lot of women are detaching themselves from feminism, not because it's seen as a bad thing, but because they're really looking into it and seeing what the 3rd wave is advocating. Then realizing it's evolved a long way from equality for men and women. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I think a lot of women don't know what a lot of the modern gender warriors actually believe in so when they hear people criticizing feminism they think they don't want basic equal rights which in most cases is not true at all. I would bet that 99% of the women on this board would be considered gender traitors by them. If you are for fathers rights you damn sure are a slave to the patriarchy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SycamoreCircle Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I think it's a term used so much, no one really knows what it means. I see so many profiles on OKC of women in their late 20's saying something like, "I'm a feminist and if you have a problem with that we're not a match." I think to myself, "no, we're not a match because you sound like a bitter idiot." I think people can participate in feminism, the idea. I can go to a protest or I can read some theory. I can't BE a feminist. The same way I can't be a surrealist. Even Rene Magritte made love to his wife. Did he tie a lobster to her head, in the process? I doubt it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
boilingpoint Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 What does that mean to you? You know that alcohol, drugs, violence, burning bridges with family and friends, etc. very often has something to do with homelessness. Males tend to act out more violently in society. It's also not as dangerous for a male to sleep out on the street or travel around alone as a female. Even most drugged out females know enough to get shelter somewhere so they won't be raped. haha, so it's because men are more violent, more stupid, can sleep rough easier than women and don't know how to find shelter. Gimme a break. Are women not violent? Are women not stupid? Do women use alcohol/drugs? Burn bridges? Yes, YES, yes and yes... but generally a woman's support network is 10x that of a man's, so more often than not, doesn't matter too much what she's like, someone will help her because women are 'nice'. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
jay1983 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) What does that mean to you? You know that alcohol, drugs, violence, burning bridges with family and friends, etc. very often has something to do with homelessness. Males tend to act out more violently in society. It's also not as dangerous for a male to sleep out on the street or travel around alone as a female. Even most drugged out females know enough to get shelter somewhere so they won't be raped. Women are just as likely use alcohol, drugs, be violent (most extremely violent crimes are done by men) steal and burn bridges. There aren't as many places a homeless man can go as a homeless women. Erin Pizzey built battered women's shelter, then tried to build one for men. Well a group of radical feminist didn't like that idea, sent death threats and murdered her dog. Okay so it's not as(keyword as) dangerous for a man to sleep on the streets, so lets not worry about them? Edited October 29, 2014 by jay1983 Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Firefighters don't carry people out the window on their shoulders. That's in the movies. Women are just as capable firefighters as men. With respect, my arse, old girl. Just a few weeks ago some Pikies petrol bombed my neighbours shack. The firemen carried a 250lb man down three storeys of ladder to save his pale and pasty. Show me a women who can throw 250lb of man over her shoulder and stroll down a 40 foot ladder with flames licking all round and I'll tip my hat. There may be one or two (I know Polish lass who is more man then most) but in general, that vast, vast majority of women, not for lacking in courage but through physical weakness compared to a man, would never be able to do that. Utterly wrong to lower the standard in life saving/protection professions so the physically weaker sex can also play, in my opinion. Male or female should have nothing to do with it, ability to be the best at the job is what it's all about. This is where feminism falls foul. Equality for all, I'm all for it, I'll Champion it as much as the next person, but equality must also account for ability, and there's some things at which only the rarest of women can match a man. The bar should not be lowered. To lower is not equality. Quite the opposite. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Did you happen to read any of my earlier posts. I know of one issue, and that is the difficulty men often face in family court. I'm a lawyer, and I've done pro bono (free) work for men in that situation. How about you? That's a very good example, Taramere. Where I live we have a statutory presumption of joint custody and 50/50 parenting time so either parent that wants more (or less) carries a burden to prove why. But as with all laws, I find the problem is with the prejudices and preconceptions of individual judges and magistrates, who have a great deal of discretion where I am. The viewpoints are as wide-ranging as individuals are, but I find that the old-school male judges are most likely to assume mothers are more nurturing and better parents, even when there is strong proof of neglect. It's difficult to shake people out of their entrenched perspectives. But I do see a great deal of change in even the last ten years, usually starting in legislatures, ironically, and trickling down to the courts. Another neat gender-neutral change is giving parental leave and providing free daycare to both parents. If my daughter and son-in-law have a baby, she'll get 6 weeks unpaid and he'll get 12 weeks paid leave because he works for a very progressive and profitable company. Amazing how the world has changed. Link to post Share on other sites
chimpanA-2-chimpanZ Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Yikes, can we say "no true Scotsman" fallacy? If you think feminism means you have to believe XYZ, you're doing it wrong. Feminism does not mean agreeing with all other women all of the time. Feminism is not an agenda. It is not a political party. It is an idea that women and men don't have to be defined by societal stereotypes. And part of that means the freedom to disagree about everything. The point about feminist message boards is an absurd straw man. Those boards are for people who are passionately interested in activism, so of course they're going to be the most extreme. 99% of people who work out and lift weights are not as insane as the posters on bodybuilding.com. Saying you can't call yourself a feminist because it's been "hijacked" is like saying you can't call yourself a Christian because Pentecostal snake handlers call themselves Christians too. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Of course people can call themselves feminists or Christians but the religious right is a big reason why there is such an increase an atheism and why people in the west are rejecting religion in droves. It has hurt the image of Christianity amongst many people and the gender warriors have hurt the image of feminism. No movement or belief system should ever be above self examination. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
chimpanA-2-chimpanZ Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Of course people can call themselves feminists or Christians but the religious right is a big reason why there is such an increase an atheism and why people in the west are rejecting religion in droves. It has hurt the image of Christianity amongst many people and the gender warriors have hurt the image of feminism. No movement or belief system should ever be above self examination. Did anyone say any movement should be above self-examination? More people call themselves feminists today than ever before and gender equality has made tremendous progress around the world (even though there's a long way to go). People aren't abandoning feminism. I would also argue that people aren't abandoning religion because of the far right, either, but that's a separate thread. I bet a lot of the "...but I don't call myself a feminist!" crowd is made up of white under-25s who have never experienced any kind of discrimination. I would know, because I was one of them. It was only until I got into the workplace in a very male-dominated field that I realized exactly what I was up against. And hell, I'm an upper-middle class white woman; I have it about as easy as it can be, and it's still pretty hard sometimes. It made me that much more aware of what others experience. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Women are just as likely use alcohol, drugs, be violent (most extremely violent crimes are done by men) steal and burn bridges. Statistics help your case more than relying on your feelings. Men are more likely to be alcoholics - CDC - Fact Sheets-Excessive Alcohol Use And Men's Health - Alcohol Okay so it's not as(keyword as) dangerous for a man to sleep on the streets, so lets not worry about them? Stop making emotional assumptions about what other people are saying. No one said that. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 The most anti-feminist women I know are ones who saw a man they care about go through some stuff. It's easy to rage against the patriarchy but when a loved one is the target it is very different. Link to post Share on other sites
Maleficent Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 With respect, my arse, old girl. Just a few weeks ago some Pikies petrol bombed my neighbours shack. The firemen carried a 250lb man down three storeys of ladder to save his pale and pasty. Show me a women who can throw 250lb of man over her shoulder and stroll down a 40 foot ladder with flames licking all round and I'll tip my hat. There may be one or two (I know Polish lass who is more man then most) but in general, that vast, vast majority of women, not for lacking in courage but through physical weakness compared to a man, would never be able to do that. Utterly wrong to lower the standard in life saving/protection professions so the physically weaker sex can also play, in my opinion. Male or female should have nothing to do with it, ability to be the best at the job is what it's all about. This is where feminism falls foul. Equality for all, I'm all for it, I'll Champion it as much as the next person, but equality must also account for ability, and there's some things at which only the rarest of women can match a man. The bar should not be lowered. To lower is not equality. Quite the opposite. Most men wouldn't even be able to do that... Would you expect a 5'4'' man to be able to do that? no? well then... Link to post Share on other sites
Maleficent Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Also, I should point out the point is not to make a version of the test for women that would be so ridiculously easy your grandmother would pass it but one that would require the same amount of effort from a woman as a man (considering men are naturally stronger, it is normal they would lift more.) For example, an average man would use 75% of his strength and lift 200 lbs while an average woman using 75% of her strength would lift 175 lbs Obviously my numbers aren't based on scientific calculations but you get what I mean... Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Most men wouldn't even be able to do that... Would you expect a 5'4'' man to be able to do that? no? well then... True, most men nowadays cannot do that. The point is that firefighters do have to do that and it is not the stuff of movies. The bar should not be lowered for anyone, be they man or woman. There are some professions where no allowance should be made for being female. They're just too damned important to play equality for the sake of "equality". To my mind, this is an area is where "equality" becomes corruption. The best, regardlass of sex, must be allowed to rise. Both sexes have to be honest with themselves for the common good. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Maleficent Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 True, most men nowadays cannot do that. The point is that firefighters do have to do that and it is not the stuff of movies. The bar should not be lowered for anyone, be they man or woman. There are some professions where no allowance should be made for being female. They're just too damned important to play equality for the sake of "equality". To my mind, this is an area is where "equality" becomes corruption. The best, regardlass of sex, must be allowed to rise. Both sexes have to be honest with themselves for the common good. Thing is you are acting like we believe the tests should be ridiculously easy. I'm pretty sure a lot of men wouldn't be able to pass the women's version of those tests - if there was one. I've researched some firefighter tests (in Canada anyways) and I didn't find two different version (one for women, one for men) None of the tests require applicants to carry 250 lbs over their shoulder. There is a girl at my gym who is training for RCMP and she told me they are expected to do different lifts at a certain percentage of their body weight. Which make a lot more sense and is a lot more fair for everyone (men included) Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Most men wouldn't even be able to do that... Would you expect a 5'4'' man to be able to do that? no? well then... Sorry... Your wrong...Im 5'6" and I can carry you, your husband, your kid and your dog...And most guys I know can...short or tall.. But really... Im not against equality....I just dont get the hypocrisy.... -Most feminists argue for the right for a woman to choose what she wants to do with her body...But only for abortions....For prostitution, strip clubs, porn...They shouldnt have a choice...ban it...What...???..Huh??? -And while they fight for equality in the workplace, they also wont argue and supoort policies which place women in jobs that would have normally been occupied by a more qualified man...How is that "equality"... -You will never see a woman(feminist or not) fight for the inequalities men face in terms of child custody, alimony, and other marital issues...Most of these rulings were set when women had absolutely no options...Now that they do, why isnt there a groundswell of women seeking to make these outdated and archaic rulings obsolete....How is that equality,??? Sounds like a lot of "selective" equality....just sayin'' TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Thing is you are acting like we believe the tests should be ridiculously easy. I'm pretty sure a lot of men wouldn't be able to pass the women's version of those tests - if there was one. I've researched some firefighter tests (in Canada anyways) and I didn't find two different version (one for women, one for men) None of the tests require applicants to carry 250 lbs over their shoulder. There is a girl at my gym who is training for RCMP and she told me they are expected to do different lifts at a certain percentage of their body weight. Which make a lot more sense and is a lot more fair for everyone (men included) So what happens if she is on the job....Does she only respond to calls that happen to fall within her particular physical capabilities.?? Only arrest the 130 lb guy....let the 250 lb guy go or just shoot him?? Its nuts...set a standard...Make it tough...If 3 women can pass it instead of 40...then let those three have the job...Same for men...No sliding scales for different individuals.. TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Thing is you are acting like we believe the tests should be ridiculously easy. I'm pretty sure a lot of men wouldn't be able to pass the women's version of those tests - if there was one. I've researched some firefighter tests (in Canada anyways) and I didn't find two different version (one for women, one for men) None of the tests require applicants to carry 250 lbs over their shoulder. There is a girl at my gym who is training for RCMP and she told me they are expected to do different lifts at a certain percentage of their body weight. Which make a lot more sense and is a lot more fair for everyone (men included) Nope not acting like tests should be easy, quite the opposite. Fair has nothing to do with it. Ability does. When life is in the line, ability is all that matters. A certain percentage of the body weight matters not a jot in saving life. Can you lift a body to safety does. It isn't game. Can do or can not do is what matters. Man or woman, if you can't do, then stop being selfish, step aside and let the person who can do, do the job. Let them most capable do the job. Anything less is a treason, corruption and betrayal to the innocent . Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 If this graphic is any indicator (filter for men and women to see the differences), we men, since we still make most of the laws, do it to ourselves, presuming of course that the men aren't cow-towing to their wives or supplicating to female constituents in their work lives as lawmakers. Even if then, they let that happen. We need to fight for our own equality just like women have in the past. Don't expect women to become all altruistic. Pigs would sooner fly. Ha! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Maleficent Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So what happens if she is on the job....Does she only respond to calls that happen to fall within her particular physical capabilities.?? Only arrest the 130 lb guy....let the 250 lb guy go or just shoot him?? Its nuts...set a standard...Make it tough...If 3 women can pass it instead of 40...then let those three have the job...Same for men...No sliding scales for different individuals.. TFY Yes because there is no way in hell she will learn techniques to control the 250 lbs man in training. They also send them on their own, without any weapon, pepper spray or tasers. duh. I'm done wasting my time here. Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So what happens if she is on the job....Does she only respond to calls that happen to fall within her particular physical capabilities.?? Only arrest the 130 lb guy....let the 250 lb guy go or just shoot him?? Its nuts...set a standard...Make it tough...If 3 women can pass it instead of 40...then let those three have the job...Same for men...No sliding scales for different individuals.. TFY Absolutely. Male or female, set the standard an apply it. Whether one has a dick or not matters not. That is equality. Link to post Share on other sites
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