It had nothing to do with you

[truncated]

I read this thread out of curiosity, not personal experience, and something really stands out to me in a few of the responses.

 

these are placing the root of all the stresses or dissatisfaction a married person can have in their life inside the marriage and at the foot of their spouse, which is stuff and nonsense.

 

People have stress in their lives from their job, raising kids, dealing with their extended families, finances, h@ll, even the daily commute and watching the news can raise someone's anxiety and sense of dissatisfaction. I suppose some might say that they could take this to their spouse and talk about it, but some people were raised to hide their problems, that admitting they were having trouble coping made them weak. They bottle their problems up, all the while resenting their spouse for not somehow instinctively knowing something was wrong.

 

Is their personality type the fault of their spouse, or does it fall on them? Will changing partners somehow be the magic bullet that changes a individual's personality, or do hey just get better at hiding it for a short time?

[AmyBamy]

You can only wear people down so much before they look for a way out, and divorce just is not going to be the first option for most people, period.

 

 

?- an affair is the cowards way out- looking for that soft landing and finding someone new because they lack the emotional intelligence to be on their own-

 

This is like saying that suicide is the coward's way out. It's not. Just because you don't understand it, or it's not something you would choose, doesn't make it a cowardly thing to do. You are talking in generalizations of groups of people and in moral absolutes and those are both faulty. Not everyone having an affair is looking for an easy way out, they are trying to find the best way out. Since nobody can see the future, we are all just guessing what the best way is and only in hindsight can we tell if we made the "right" decisions or not. You're expecting people to know ahead of time and have some kind of map that tells them what is best before the results come back.

[goodyblue]

I think there's a lot of rewriting history that goes on with both sides.

 

It's true that some people get into marriages that they should not have. Addicts, serial cheaters, gamblers, etc. We all tend to put our best faces on when courting, after the M our true selves become increasingly apparent.

I maintain though that having an exit affair is not a good way to leave a marriage. That's like dropping a nuclear bomb into the high crime area of your city. It just creates so much damage for everyone involved.[/quote]

 

It also eliminates the criminal, allows for a new start and growth.

[cocorico]

have to agree. Your relationship started on lies. I'm sure all MM/OW marriages start out like this. But your DYNAMIC is one of lying, betraying, getting your egos stroked and not caring about others but yourselves. Good luck.

 

I could not agree less.

 

Our M also started as an A, but it never involved lies, nor did our R ever involve betrayal, ego stroking nor "not caring about anyone but ourselves". Those are huge assumptions to make about people and Rs you know nothing about (or perhaps you do know these people IRL?) just because a WS "lies" (actively or by omission) or "betrays" a BS, that does not characterise all their Rs or other interactions that way.

 

Our M is just great, very happy, very healthy, and has lasted longer than the average with no signs of decline.

 

His previous M was abusive, toxic, unhappy - and that had *a great deal* to do with her. (That he put up with it for so long is on him, the test is on her.)

[gettingstronger]

This is like saying that suicide is the coward's way out.

 

 

Suicide is normally a response to a mental illness-unless your AP is mentally ill and unable to cope than yes, its the cowards way out- those that lack the emotional intelligence to stand on their own, do look for that soft landing of an A-

 

As far as me not understanding affairs and suicide, I promise that I fully understand both-I am in education and unfortunately have had to deal with suicide more than I should, as for an affair- sadly, through months and months of therapy I understand them as well-how much professional help have you received to help you with your A?

[truncated]

This is like saying that suicide is the coward's way out. It's not. Just because you don't understand it, or it's not something you would choose, doesn't make it a cowardly thing to do. You are talking in generalizations of groups of people and in moral absolutes and those are both faulty. Not everyone having an affair is looking for an easy way out, they are trying to find the best way out. Since nobody can see the future, we are all just guessing what the best way is and only in hindsight can we tell if we made the "right" decisions or not. You're expecting people to know ahead of time and have some kind of map that tells them what is best before the results come back.

 

A person who commits suicide does so ( unless it's because of a terminal illness) because they are mentally ill and incapable of making good choices or seeing the world as it truly is.

 

I hardly think that most cheating spouses fall into that category.

 

The people left behind after a suicide are not to blame for the person's choices, any more than the people left behind after a spouse decides to cheat are to blame for their decision. I know it's easier for other women to blame the betrayed spouse for their actions, but the blame lies squarely where it should, on the shoulders of the person who makes the choice.

[goodyblue]

I am not going to bring this up again but the reasons for suicide are as varied as grains of sand on the beach, just like the reasons for affairs. People do not have to be mentally ill. It could be something as simple as being bullied.

[gettingstronger]

I am not going to bring this up again but the reasons for suicide are as varied as grains of sand on the beach, just like the reasons for affairs.

 

 

And just like grains of sand, although they may look different, they are all made of the same thing- in the case of an affair- the inability to handle a situation in a mature manner-not going to argue the cause-the decision is still not the best/most appropriate one regardless of how it turns out or how you try to spin it- affairs are for cowards, period- and yes, I am married to one and he will be the first to tell you that-

[katielee]

Our M also started as an A, but it never involved lies,

 

oh really? No lying to his BS then?

[nightmare01]

This is like saying that suicide is the coward's way out. It's not. Just because you don't understand it, or it's not something you would choose, doesn't make it a cowardly thing to do. You are talking in generalizations of groups of people and in moral absolutes and those are both faulty. Not everyone having an affair is looking for an easy way out, they are trying to find the best way out. Since nobody can see the future, we are all just guessing what the best way is and only in hindsight can we tell if we made the "right" decisions or not. You're expecting people to know ahead of time and have some kind of map that tells them what is best before the results come back.

 

So - lying to your spouse and betraying them thereby placing them in physical danger and subjecting them to mental abuse... you consider this the best way out?

 

Wouldn't MC or Separation or Divorce be better options?

 

 

nightmare01: I maintain though that having an exit affair is not a good way to leave a marriage. That's like dropping a nuclear bomb into the high crime area of your city. It just creates so much damage for everyone involved.

 

goodyblue: It also eliminates the criminal, allows for a new start and growth.

 

Wow... I'm glad I don't live in your city.

 

Wouldn't increasing police presence be a better choice?

Or just moving away?

 

Like having an affair to exit the marriage, dropping a nuclear bomb on part of your city really seems to be a bad choice. Yes you kill the criminal, but those that remain - including you - will be burnt by the radiation and will have health issues for the rest of your life.

[cocorico]

oh really? No lying to his BS then?

 

Nope.

 

Their "communication" was pretty much notes left on the fridge. They lived completely separate lives. There was no need to lie.

 

He simply didn't tell her, until it was necessary for her to know. Then he told her, and she chose not to believe him.

[nightmare01]

He simply didn't tell her, until it was necessary for her to know.

 

That's called a lie of omission.

[goodyblue]

So - lying to your spouse and betraying them thereby placing them in physical danger and subjecting them to mental abuse... you consider this the best way out?

 

Wouldn't MC or Separation or Divorce be better options?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow... I'm glad I don't live in your city.

 

Wouldn't increasing police presence be a better choice?

Or just moving away?

 

Like having an affair to exit the marriage, dropping a nuclear bomb on part of your city really seems to be a bad choice. Yes you kill the criminal, but those that remain - including you - will be burnt by the radiation and will have health issues for the rest of your life.

 

Well, I suppose there are always casualties of war but for the most part the only one not happier by the divorce and our union is his ex. His parents, children etc are all very glad he is out of the marriage and my family is just in love with my guy. My kids have never been happier in their lives.

[peaksandvalleys]

This is like saying that suicide is the coward's way out.

 

 

Suicide is normally a response to a mental illness-unless your AP is mentally ill and unable to cope than yes, its the cowards way out- those that lack the emotional intelligence to stand on their own, do look for that soft landing of an A-

 

As far as me not understanding affairs and suicide, I promise that I fully understand both-I am in education and unfortunately have had to deal with suicide more than I should, as for an affair- sadly, through months and months of therapy I understand them as well-how much professional help have you received to help you with your A?

 

 

Very well said.

[AmyBamy]

Moral absolutes about suicide too. Just because you have deemed something "wrong" or a sin doesn't make it so. It's a belief, not a fact, not a universal rule. If it was, then nobody would ever do it, right?

 

Stealing is wrong. What if you are stealing to feed a child? Suicide is wrong. What if it's to end your life before ALS kicks in and steals your body? Affairs are wrong. What if your spouse is abusive and it's the only way you can see out?

 

There are no absolute moral values. None. There's always people who won't agree with you. So, you can believe and have the perception but it doesn't make it a fact, it remains just an opinion. And finding moral superiority simply based on an opinion is building on pretty shaky ground. The people you view as morally inferior assuredly disagree with things you do and believe themselves to be morally superior to you (some people see marriage as prostitution, paying for sex, paying with sex for security and financial security).

 

It may make you feel better and good for you but it's not based in fact. It's based in making you feel better about yourself.

 

As for not being responsible for your spouse's actions, I agree. I do not agree though that affairs happen in a vacuum that isn't influenced by the BS. I was defensive too as a newly betrayed BS, I stood on my moral high horse and felt comforted by the fact that I was better than him and his girlfriend. But as times goes by, that should fade and result in some self retrospection. Some acknowledging of your own misdeeds and mistreatment of your WS. I'm not saying you have to ever agree with them having an affair, but at some point if you don't have empathy and understanding of why they chose that, then you and the relationship is doomed. Unless you're happy in a relationship that is completely based on the dynamic of blaming and being a victim. I don't believe much happiness can come from that, but some people don't want happiness, they just want security. Security of having a partner, of being married, of being in control, of not being able to handle the fact that the world is unpredictable and bad things happen. To each his own, but I want happiness, even if it's uncertain, true happiness is far more valuable to me than security based on believing I'm better than my spouse and them staying out of guilt or shame or manipulation.

[goodyblue]

Moral absolutes about suicide too. Just because you have deemed something "wrong" or a sin doesn't make it so. It's a belief, not a fact, not a universal rule. If it was, then nobody would ever do it, right?

 

Stealing is wrong. What if you are stealing to feed a child? Suicide is wrong. What if it's to end your life before ALS kicks in and steals your body? Affairs are wrong. What if your spouse is abusive and it's the only way you can see out?

 

There are no absolute moral values. None. There's always people who won't agree with you. So, you can believe and have the perception but it doesn't make it a fact, it remains just an opinion. And finding moral superiority simply based on an opinion is building on pretty shaky ground. The people you view as morally inferior assuredly disagree with things you do and believe themselves to be morally superior to you (some people see marriage as prostitution, paying for sex, paying with sex for security and financial security).

 

It may make you feel better and good for you but it's not based in fact. It's based in making you feel better about yourself.

 

As for not being responsible for your spouse's actions, I agree. I do not agree though that affairs happen in a vacuum that isn't influenced by the BS. I was defensive too as a newly betrayed BS, I stood on my moral high horse and felt comforted by the fact that I was better than him and his girlfriend. But as times goes by, that should fade and result in some self retrospection. Some acknowledging of your own misdeeds and mistreatment of your WS. I'm not saying you have to ever agree with them having an affair, but at some point if you don't have empathy and understanding of why they chose that, then you and the relationship is doomed. Unless you're happy in a relationship that is completely based on the dynamic of blaming and being a victim. I don't believe much happiness can come from that, but some people don't want happiness, they just want security. Security of having a partner, of being married, of being in control, of not being able to handle the fact that the world is unpredictable and bad things happen. To each his own, but I want happiness, even if it's uncertain, true happiness is far more valuable to me than security based on believing I'm better than my spouse and them staying out of guilt or shame or manipulation.

 

For me, it just feels about the same as arguing religion. Yours is the right way. The only way. But it isn't. Everyone feels that way, but belief systems are different for everyone. I wish my relationship had not started as an affair but if I had to choose between starting as an affair and not having my guy by my side, I will pick affair every single time. His happiness matters to me, even if his ex didn't think so, I do. And so does mine. And our kids happiness matters too. May not have been the best way but it was a means to an end and I am so glad we have one another. So, it may have been wrong to have an affair but his life with his ex wife was much worse than the affair it took to give him the courage to seek his happiness. I believe in being happy. Life is short. I am not going to waste a moment.

[gettingstronger]

Who said suicide was wrong. You compared suicide to cheating. Cheating is a cowardly act, period!

[goodyblue]

Who said suicide was wrong. You compared suicide to cheating. Cheating is a cowardly act, period!

 

So is abuse, neglect, emotional torture, segregation, and causing the misery of another, and not caring because you feel they will never leave because of social status, religion, children, on and on.

 

I'm sorry, I don't speak for anyone but myself, but for us, what his ex wife did to him was every bit as bad as what we did. Talk to any abused woman and ask her why she doesn't leave. Is she cowardly?

 

Again I'll say, I really wish our relationship hadn't begun this way, but it did, all we can do now is go forward and be as happy as we can, which is exactly what we're doing.

[truncated]

 

Unless you're happy in a relationship that is completely based on the dynamic of blaming and being a victim. I don't believe much happiness can come from that, but some people don't want happiness, they just want security. .

 

These are the words of a hypocrite.

 

Just in the short time I have been browsing this site, pretty much every other woman casts her married man in that very role of victim. While a couple are willing to admit that he contributed to the problems in the marriage, most paint him as just the victim you describe. A victim of a cold fish of a wife who never shows him any affection, drinks all the time, lets herself get fat, is lazy, whatever. She's often portrayed as mentally unbalanced, a bad mother or just plain crazy.

 

As for the notion that nothing is ever right and nothing is ever wrong, again you re speaking the words of a hypocrite. Those same other women feel that the wife is the one who did everything wrong.

 

I understand needing a defensive mechanism to rationalize the behavior of the married man. It's the same that you see in betrayed spouses who blame the affair completely on the other woman, saying that he wouldn't have cheated had she not seduced him.

[truncated]

So is abuse, neglect, emotional torture, segregation, and causing the misery of another, and not caring because you feel they will never leave because of social status, religion, children, on and on.

 

I'm sorry, I don't speak for anyone but myself, but for us, what his ex wife did to him was every bit as bad as what we did. Talk to any abused woman and ask her why she doesn't leave. Is she cowardly?

 

Again I'll say, I really wish our relationship hadn't begun this way, but it did, all we can do now is go forward and be as happy as we can, which is exactly what we're doing.

 

This is an example of the hypocritical language I was referring to.

 

According to you, the wife is 100% to blame, and he is casting himself in the role of a victim.

 

Nothing is ever right or wrong, but for some strange reason that doesn't apply to his wife, just him?

[sweet_pea]

Who said suicide was wrong. You compared suicide to cheating. Cheating is a cowardly act, period!

 

Right! They are really reaching trying to compare suicide and domestic violence, etc to cheating/leaving by cheating. Talk about justifying yourself by any means necessary.

 

I mean, how is cheating not cowardly? How is it not cowardly to hide, lie, betray and inflict pain/hurt on others instead of actually doing the thing WS claim they want to do so much (divorce)? You'll hear the excuses of them worried about finances, children, etc. but that can be handled in the divorce.

[goodyblue]

This is an example of the hypocritical language I was referring to.

 

According to you, the wife is 100% to blame, and he is casting himself in the role of a victim.

 

Nothing is ever right or wrong, but for some strange reason that doesn't apply to his wife, just him?

 

Actually I never said he did not play a role. He absolutely shut her out emotionally when things got bad and stayed that way for years. Other things. I am not even saying what she did was wrong... obviously it was right for her as it went on for over a decade. This is where compatibility comes in. They just wanted different things.

 

As stated, he and I went to therapy in order to help us deal with what happened. She has not. In fact, she told one of her children that she would take him back even now, because of the financial security.

 

So. I am just telling how it was for me. I don't know about anyone else's situation.

 

And the reason I brought up abuse is because my guy was verbally and emotionally abused in my opinion. And he felt trapped, unable to leave and was miserable. Way to make light of it.

 

It was really hard for him to leave but he did. Finally.

[drifter777]

So is abuse, neglect, emotional torture, segregation, and causing the misery of another, and not caring because you feel they will never leave because of social status, religion, children, on and on.

 

I'm sorry, I don't speak for anyone but myself, but for us, what his ex wife did to him was every bit as bad as what we did. Talk to any abused woman and ask her why she doesn't leave. Is she cowardly?

 

Again I'll say, I really wish our relationship hadn't begun this way, but it did, all we can do now is go forward and be as happy as we can, which is exactly what we're doing.

Human beings are able to rationalize pretty much anything. We are not capable of truly believing we are "bad" people so we photoshop reality in whatever way we have so we can sleep at night. That's what you are doing here. There is no definition of "every bit as bad" so your conscience is clear no matter what you've done or what she's done. You live in your own value system so the value judgements you make are perfect. This is true for all humans, but most of us have developed insight and are self-aware enough to realize that this kind of thinking is selfish and childish. Adults use life experiences to develop their character and a sense of right & wrong. This is what keeps most of us from thinking everything we do, say, or think is right by definition.

 

Look, maybe your MM's wife is a terrible person - I can't know. What I do know is that you entered a sexual relationship with her husband while he was married to her. That doesn't make you scum or a "bad" person, but in my book what you did was selfish and hurtful. You say that what she did is every bit as bad as what you did but you should understand that there's no "even" in these life situations. Pain is pain, wrong is wrong.

[velvette]

Right! They are really reaching trying to compare suicide and domestic violence, etc to cheating/leaving by cheating. Talk about justifying yourself by any means necessary.

 

I mean, how is cheating not cowardly? How is it not cowardly to hide, lie, betray and inflict pain/hurt on others instead of actually doing the thing WS claim they want to do so much (divorce)? You'll hear the excuses of them worried about finances, children, etc. but that can be handled in the divorce.

 

Suicide is almost always the result of irrational thinking due to severe depression. What that has to do with cheating is beyond me.

 

On the other hand, cheating is a lot like domestic violence. Its about the most emotionally abusive thing you can do in a relationship.

[goodyblue]

Suicide is almost always the result of irrational thinking due to severe depression. What that has to do with cheating is beyond me.

 

On the other hand, cheating is a lot like domestic violence. Its about the most emotionally abusive thing you can do in a relationship.

 

Actually I find it fascinating that I am the one who owns what I did, I am simply stating that my guy was not the only one committing crimes against the marriage, and here come a bunch of posters all pointing the finger and not even considering what the other party may have done to cause such behavior. Her thinking and rationalization makes a lot of sense now because it is all I see on this forum. I am so glad I am not married to anyone who cannot see the forest for the trees. I will remove myself from this thread now as it is a fruitless conversation. Everyone is right. BS is wonderful, marriage was great, clearly the WS was just a horrible person without a single moral or value. Thing is, my guy and I are incredibly happy. Our children are happy. We do lots of fun and exciting things together. We are actually taking the kids on a weekend getaway to the city later today. We enjoy our lives as a family. When I look at most posters here, I see unhappiness. I would rather be US than the BS any day. Not because of what happened in the marriage but because of the ridiculously poor coping skills and the inability to get on with life.

 

Enjoy your evening.