It had nothing to do with you

[AmyBamy]

I have never seen someone have an affair that was happy in their marriage - ever. I have only seen affairs happen when a marriage dynamic is bad. And the dynamic is only created by those two people in it. Sometimes, people just aren't good matches and their dynamic just never works.

[katielee]

it only takes one person to make a bad marriage dynamic.

[merrmeade]

The therapist and WS would explain that the words "it has nothing to do with you" mean that the "it" refers to the WS's actions that broke the marriage vow; made you feel cheap, dismissed and devalued; turned your view of reality and shared values upside-down; made you question your reason for being and doing everything you thought you were together and separately. Yes, the impetus for those actions had nothing to do with you. But only an idiot would say their impact had nothing to do with you.

 

My H really rallied when one therapist we didn't stay with called it "acting out" and heartily concurs that it had nothing to do with me. It also makes him impatient that I don't just understand that and quit making him go over and over things.

 

Therefore, it also means that they were not only "acting out" in ways that had "nothing to do with" the BS, it means they are also sorely stressed to embrace the foundation of a monogamous, loving relationship - empathy. Or how about just Love.

Edited September 20, 2014 by merrmeade

[sweet_pea]

I have never seen someone have an affair that was happy in their marriage - ever. I have only seen affairs happen when a marriage dynamic is bad. And the dynamic is only created by those two people in it. Sometimes, people just aren't good matches and their dynamic just never works.

 

So… because you've never seen it happen means it hasn't, right? Gotcha

[merrmeade]

I have never seen someone have an affair that was happy in their marriage - ever. I have only seen affairs happen when a marriage dynamic is bad. And the dynamic is only created by those two people in it. Sometimes, people just aren't good matches and their dynamic just never works.

 

........And so?

[gettingstronger]

Amy as an ow that bought your mms story hook line and sinker I am not surprised by your experience.

 

As for the op, I think there are multiple ways to view that statement. My husbands decision to cheat is all on him. The consequences of that are on the two of us.

[dichotomy]

I have never seen someone have an affair that was happy in their marriage - ever.

 

Define happy? and how this depends on the BS?

 

My wife brought along (a downshifted from PA) emotional affair into our dating/engagement and later marriage (for brief time till dDay). She was madly in love with me and I was "the perfect man" for her, and was happy as could be, joyous, and could not wait to marry me. She was happy.

 

It was her character flaw.... perhaps love style - I believed her to be poly... or mental illness, simply a cake eater....or simply glue, or all these things - ....and had nothing to do with me. I was an amazing man who loved her and she was overjoyed that I would marry her and her child.

 

Years of MC, have not turned up a single reason that had to do with me or our marriage - why she dragged the GD SOB OM/MM into "us". It was all her f'ed up issue. If she cheated now - I would get the "not happy with marriage" but back then not a chance.

 

All water under the bridge now - neither of us is the same person now - and yes as BS I did alot to make that change in each of us - dragging her kicking sometimes to MC and other things.

Edited September 21, 2014 by dichotomy

[DasPope]

Well my wife and I certainly had a very happy marriage and she would tell you the same thing. Her cheating had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It was completely her own thing, she had lived a lifestyle before we met where she enjoyed having casual sex and she decided to continue that lifestyle into our relationship. This had absolutely zero to do with us as a couple but a lot to do with her emotional immaturity. She now understands that behaviors need to evolve with circumstances but it really was a foreign concept to her at the beginning.

[merrmeade]

Define happy? and how this depends on the BS?

 

My wife brought along (a downshifted from PA) emotional affair into our dating/engagement and later marriage (for brief time till dDay). She was madly in love with me and I was "the perfect man" for her, and was happy as could be, joyous, and could not wait to marry me. She was happy.

 

It was her character flaw.... perhaps love style - I believed her to be poly... or mental illness, simply a cake eater....or simply glue, or all these things - ....and had nothing to do with me. I was an amazing man who loved her and she was overjoyed that I would marry her and her child.

 

Years of MC, have not turned up a single reason that had to do with me or our marriage - why she dragged the GD SOB OM/MM into "us". It was all her f'ed up issue. If she cheated now - I would get the "not happy with marriage" but back then not a chance.

 

All water under the bridge now - neither of us is the same person now - and yes as BS I did alot to make that change in each of us - dragging her kicking sometimes to MC and other things.

Very clear, descriptive anecdote, illustrating the point - all the points regarding the marriage relationship as (not) a cause of the affair.

 

In our case, both were true. It was and it wasn't. H had/has the character flaw and his As took place at times that were not the rockiest in the marriage with the exception of the last one, although his resentment of my long, long absences remained completely disguised and unexpressed (but would not have surprised me). Of course, our lack of communication did not justify his actions and betrayal of my family. But the early ones were the result of inexcusable lapses of character and, in his words, addiction. His timing made them even more reprehensible - a year after our marriage and two more, each after the birth of our first two children. Disgusting. Serial. And deeply, deeply flawed. He admits it readily, but I do not throw it in his face. His shame is real. It may sound complicated, but it's really not. I think we've got it pretty well figured out. It's living with the triggers that makes the rest of life like walking a mine field. There's always risk. "It had nothing to do with you" is hardly preparation for that.

Edited September 21, 2014 by merrmeade

[Striver]

My WW is divorcing me to date OM. She said she has been unhappy for the past year, but for nine of those she was in contact with OM. She had been friends with OM before we met and likely they had feelings or a relationship at that time. None of that has anything to do with me.

 

WW remained silent about her unhappiness for the entire year until she let me know of any problems, and she'd already decided to leave at this point.

 

Why was she unhappy? Why did she say nothing? Because she's a narcissist who has difficulty ever being wrong, and a project oriented overachiever with little intellectual curiosity. So she has difficulty avoiding boredom when she runs out of projects, and since she can't look inward at her own faults, everything gets projected outward. She used to be much better and more dimensional, but time passed, kids arrived, and she developed lazy habits. She built up resentments, got bored, OM came back in contact, she's too stubborn to ever stop any "project", and that was that.

 

Biggest difference between us is our personality types. I'm an analytical introvert who's accomodating, she is a pushy extrovert with not much inner reflection. Some contrast is healthy, and opposites attract and can work well together, but we may have a bit too much. That doesn't excuse her EA and D without making any effort to fix things since we have children.

 

Issues or less than perfect things need to be articulated and worked through with the two people, not hidden away and used to fuel resentment.

[drifter777]

I find it an insult when someone tells me "your wife's cheating was not about you". Just because she didn't consciously say to herself "I'm going to screw these guys to hurt my husband" doesn't mean it wasn't about me. You might say that at worst the betrayal and hurt she caused was just "collateral damage"; an unintended consequence. Even in that case my wife demonstrated "depraved indifference" toward how her actions would effect me, our son, and our marriage. If I intentionally shoot someone in the head and kill them it is first-degree murder and the worst possible punishment is going to be given to me. If I have a few drinks with someone and we are screwing around with a pistol and it goes off and kills him, I am guilty of second-degree murder because I demonstrated depraved indifference toward his life due to drinking alcohol and playing with the pistol. In this case the defendant will argue that he had no intent to hurt his friend, but his actions showed a callus, disregard for human life. At the moment just before the gun went off, the victim wasn't even in his thoughts. The fact is he is responsible for his actions and the killing that he says was unintentional simply shows a depraved indifference toward the victim. It's still murder.

 

When my wife chose to end our marriage and screw other guys behind my back she showed a depraved indifference toward me and my feelings. Not intending it to hurt me doesn't matter because she knew that if/when I found out I would be devastated. She was willing to take that risk because screwing the other guys was fun and it felt good. Depraved indifference toward me. She's guilty of murdering our marriage, my trust, and my self-esteem.

 

When a WS says that it wasn't about their BS they show this depraved indifference. For some BS's the fact that their WS didn't care enough to even think about how their actions would effect them is just another part of the devastation they feel.

[merrmeade]

My WW is divorcing me to date OM. She said she has been unhappy for the past year, but for nine of those she was in contact with OM. She had been friends with OM before we met and likely they had feelings or a relationship at that time. None of that has anything to do with me.

 

WW remained silent about her unhappiness for the entire year until she let me know of any problems, and she'd already decided to leave at this point.

 

Why was she unhappy? Why did she say nothing? Because she's a narcissist who has difficulty ever being wrong, and a project oriented overachiever with little intellectual curiosity. So she has difficulty avoiding boredom when she runs out of projects, and since she can't look inward at her own faults, everything gets projected outward. She used to be much better and more dimensional, but time passed, kids arrived, and she developed lazy habits. She built up resentments, got bored, OM came back in contact, she's too stubborn to ever stop any "project", and that was that.

 

Biggest difference between us is our personality types. I'm an analytical introvert who's accomodating, she is a pushy extrovert with not much inner reflection. Some contrast is healthy, and opposites attract and can work well together, but we may have a bit too much. That doesn't excuse her EA and D without making any effort to fix things since we have children.

 

Issues or less than perfect things need to be articulated and worked through with the two people, not hidden away and used to fuel resentment.

This is painful to read - especially (possibly) over-analyzing (as an "analytical introvert"). Although it's not the full answer we crave, saying "it has nothing to do with you" means don't waste energy and heartache looking for a provocation. You were't the cause, not even your extrovert/introvert differences. If anything, that could be giving her a handle or an excuse.

[HermioneG]

I have never seen someone have an affair that was happy in their marriage - ever. I have only seen affairs happen when a marriage dynamic is bad. And the dynamic is only created by those two people in it. Sometimes, people just aren't good matches and their dynamic just never works.

 

Then I would gently suggest that you have a limited experience with the subject.

 

I would have loved for it to have been about me or our marriage. Those are things I can control - or at least control my input.

 

It's a powerless feeling when you realize that's not how it works. We don't control other people. Validation is internal.

 

You could nail my spouse to a wall, and he would go down in flames insisting his affair had nothing to do with me. His IC and our MC agree.

 

Infidelity is a personal issue, not a marital one.

 

If you need a good place to read about that, I'd start with the work of Frank Pittman. If you need another round of information past that, I'd look to Shirley Glass and then Helen Fisher.

 

[AmyBamy]

I was responding to a post from above. I have extensive experience, not limited at all. Dynamics are important in marriages as they are in families. It doesn't just take one person, or else that person could never be happy or successful in any dynamic. The dynamic is the issue. It doesn't place blame on either person, it places blame on the dynamic of those particular people together. Separate them and put them in different relationships with different dynamics and they can find success and happiness,that isn't anyone's fault, it is just a result of a dynamic of personalities and people.

 

I am currently in a relationship with my former MM. He and I together create a completely different dynamic than he and his ex wife did. That's it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. Some people's dynamics work, some don't. We don't always choose the right partners, not for lack of love or hope or wishing. It just sometimes does not work, period. He and I are happy together and we work well together. I have no doubt that his ex wife will also find happiness, just not with him because their dynamic brought out the worst in each of them, not the best.

[worlybear]

I was responding to a post from above. I have extensive experience, not limited at all. Dynamics are important in marriages as they are in families. It doesn't just take one person, or else that person could never be happy or successful in any dynamic. The dynamic is the issue. It doesn't place blame on either person, it places blame on the dynamic of those particular people together. Separate them and put them in different relationships with different dynamics and they can find success and happiness,that isn't anyone's fault, it is just a result of a dynamic of personalities and people.

 

I am currently in a relationship with my former MM. He and I together create a completely different dynamic than he and his ex wife did. That's it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. Some people's dynamics work, some don't. We don't always choose the right partners, not for lack of love or hope or wishing. It just sometimes does not work, period. He and I are happy together and we work well together. I have no doubt that his ex wife will also find happiness, just not with him because their dynamic brought out the worst in each of them, not the best.

Re the bolded- How can you be so sure of yourself?

[katielee]

Re the bolded- How can you be so sure of yourself?

 

have to agree. Your relationship started on lies. I'm sure all MM/OW marriages start out like this. But your DYNAMIC is one of lying, betraying, getting your egos stroked and not caring about others but yourselves. Good luck.

[nightmare01]

Maybe "happily married" is an oxymoron.

 

First if you are happy, how do you know your partner is also? If you ask, how do you know they aren't lying? The quick answer is that you don't.

 

And what is "happy" anyway? blissful, joyful, so happy you are dancing around? Really? Is anyone THAT happy? Maybe for a while but that amount of joy never lasts.

 

Every relationship has ups and downs. It's about how people react to the downs that is the factor of how affairs start up.

 

In my case I KNEW WW and I were in a down cycle of our M. My reaction was to work on our M. Her reaction was to complain about me to a man she worked with.. and you can guess how that turned out.

[HermioneG]

I was responding to a post from above. I have extensive experience, not limited at all. Dynamics are important in marriages as they are in families. It doesn't just take one person, or else that person could never be happy or successful in any dynamic. The dynamic is the issue. It doesn't place blame on either person, it places blame on the dynamic of those particular people together. Separate them and put them in different relationships with different dynamics and they can find success and happiness,that isn't anyone's fault, it is just a result of a dynamic of personalities and people.

 

I am currently in a relationship with my former MM. He and I together create a completely different dynamic than he and his ex wife did. That's it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. Some people's dynamics work, some don't. We don't always choose the right partners, not for lack of love or hope or wishing. It just sometimes does not work, period. He and I are happy together and we work well together. I have no doubt that his ex wife will also find happiness, just not with him because their dynamic brought out the worst in each of them, not the best.

 

I am familiar with your story.

 

Respectfully, unless you were physically present in their marriage from start to finish, as in privy to their conversations, courtship, and everything else, you have zero idea what their true dynamic was. You have third party testimony, but they fell in love and felt compatible enough to be married initially.

 

Just food for thought, and it all circles around to the OP- which is the question of whether or not an affair is about the spouse. Not trying to go another round with you, but I think perspective is very, very important. And as a person ( you) currently involved with a person who made the decision to act on his personal issues by cheating, I think it's important to understand the risk of such a relationship to you.

[AmyBamy]

I am familiar with your story.

 

Respectfully, unless you were physically present in their marriage from start to finish, as in privy to their conversations, courtship, and everything else, you have zero idea what their true dynamic was. You have third party testimony, but they fell in love and felt compatible enough to be married initially.

 

Just food for thought, and it all circles around to the OP- which is the question of whether or not an affair is about the spouse. Not trying to go another round with you, but I think perspective is very, very important. And as a person ( you) currently involved with a person who made the decision to act on his personal issues by cheating, I think it's important to understand the risk of such a relationship to you.

 

I agree that perspective is important. And it's something that I think many BSs lack because they are in such a place of hurt and shock. So they place blame so that they can protect themselves. I think that as time goes on they will gain perspective and the ability to realize where they went wrong in the relationship too, to see their own culpability in the failure of the relationship (notice I didn't say the affair their WS chose) and hopefully become better partners that can also take responsibility for what they bring into a relationship and what they lacked before.

 

And not all marriages result from "falling in love" or "feeling compatible enough". There are many reasons that people get married, and many women (especially) who get married for status and security, while men often feel pressured into marriage since society makes it such a "milestone". There is a reason that one sex dreams about marriage from their childhood age on and the other is afraid of it.

 

I have absolutely no doubts about the longevity of my relationship with my boyfriend. I know when something good is happening and when two people have a strong dynamic, everyone senses it. When they don't, everyone knows it too, except it would appear, some of those who were in it. Those people will never have happy relationships until they accept their own humanity and fallibility and take responsibility for their flaws and mistakes and shortcomings.

 

Just my $.02, no need to go another round.

[ComingInHot]

Amybamy wrote: agree that perspective is important. And it's something that I think many BSs lack because they are in such a place of hurt and shock. So they place blame so that they can protect themselves. I think that as time goes on they will gain perspective and the ability to realize where they went wrong in the relationship too, to see their own culpability in the failure of the relationship (notice I didn't say the affair their WS chose) and hopefully become better partners that can also take responsibility for what they bring into a relationship and what they lacked before.*

 

 

Interesting perspective actually. I totally didn't protect myself and believed as my WH told me that it was my fault he cheated until I pulled my head out of my nether region to see the truth in fact after fact that the act of infidelity was not on me but on the cheaters. Talk about a load off my shoulders so I could stop playing defense and offense and just breathe, heal and let it go.

Is this CIH being 'zen'? Ah no. It was me surviving the choices of my douchey partner at the time.*

[velvette]

 

And not all marriages result from "falling in love" or "feeling compatible enough". There are many reasons that people get married, and many women (especially) who get married for status and security, while men often feel pressured into marriage since society makes it such a "milestone". There is a reason that one sex dreams about marriage from their childhood age on and the other is afraid of it.

 

I have absolutely no doubts about the longevity of my relationship with my boyfriend. I know when something good is happening and when two people have a strong dynamic, everyone senses it. When they don't, everyone knows it too, except it would appear, some of those who were in it. Those people will never have happy relationships until they accept their own humanity and fallibility and take responsibility for their flaws and mistakes and shortcomings.

 

Just my $.02, no need to go another round.

 

I hope the bolded doesn't refer to the MM you had an affair with. That's a really weak man and a really weak reason to get married.

 

Its just as easy to call off a wedding as it is to get a divorce rather than have an affair. Unless of course, you are doing these things for validation of others thinking it will make you happy. If its your MM, be prepared for him to blame you for his unhappiness down the road.

 

Its actually rather typical of people who have A....blaming others for their unhappiness that is usually attributable to their own issues.

[HermioneG]

I hope the bolded doesn't refer to the MM you had an affair with. That's a really weak man and a really weak reason to get married.

 

Its just as easy to call off a wedding as it is to get a divorce rather than have an affair. Unless of course, you are doing these things for validation of others thinking it will make you happy. If its your MM, be prepared for him to blame you for his unhappiness down the road.

 

Its actually rather typical of people who have A....blaming others for their unhappiness that is usually attributable to their own issues.

 

Very, very well said. Exactly what I was thinking.

[HermioneG]

I agree that perspective is important. And it's something that I think many BSs lack because they are in such a place of hurt and shock. So they place blame so that they can protect themselves. I think that as time goes on they will gain perspective and the ability to realize where they went wrong in the relationship too, to see their own culpability in the failure of the relationship (notice I didn't say the affair their WS chose) and hopefully become better partners that can also take responsibility for what they bring into a relationship and what they lacked before.

 

And not all marriages result from "falling in love" or "feeling compatible enough". There are many reasons that people get married, and many women (especially) who get married for status and security, while men often feel pressured into marriage since society makes it such a "milestone". There is a reason that one sex dreams about marriage from their childhood age on and the other is afraid of it.

 

I have absolutely no doubts about the longevity of my relationship with my boyfriend. I know when something good is happening and when two people have a strong dynamic, everyone senses it. When they don't, everyone knows it too, except it would appear, some of those who were in it. Those people will never have happy relationships until they accept their own humanity and fallibility and take responsibility for their flaws and mistakes and shortcomings.

 

Just my $.02, no need to go another round.

 

But when DDay comes and the wayward runs very quickly away from the affair partner ( that they have been released to go to by a betrayed who has said no more, and hefty bags their crap), and the wayward turns themselves inside out to stay in the marriage, and the professionals associated with the issue and the parties in the marriage ( and the majority of the literature) all say it is not a marital issue but a personal failing , then it kind of invalidates that whole blame the marriage/betrayed spouse thing.

 

Time ( well over 5 years now) has shown me even more clearly that it had nothing to do with me. I am not operating from shock or panic anymore. Actually- when I was operating from shock- that was when I tried to take responsibility for things I had no control over. Funny, that. As I healed, I knew it was not so.

 

I wish you luck in your new relationship. I think you might be missing some really important pieces of information, and I would be highly alarmed at the prospect of applying the reasoning you're showing here in a daily relationship. It would be really hard to have that pressure. Exhausting. Especially if your MM married for the reasons you stated. Yikes.

Edited September 23, 2014 by HermioneG

[HermioneG]

Amybamy wrote: agree that perspective is important. And it's something that I think many BSs lack because they are in such a place of hurt and shock. So they place blame so that they can protect themselves. I think that as time goes on they will gain perspective and the ability to realize where they went wrong in the relationship too, to see their own culpability in the failure of the relationship (notice I didn't say the affair their WS chose) and hopefully become better partners that can also take responsibility for what they bring into a relationship and what they lacked before.*

 

 

Interesting perspective actually. I totally didn't protect myself and believed as my WH told me that it was my fault he cheated until I pulled my head out of my nether region to see the truth in fact after fact that the act of infidelity was not on me but on the cheaters. Talk about a load off my shoulders so I could stop playing defense and offense and just breathe, heal and let it go.

Is this CIH being 'zen'? Ah no. It was me surviving the choices of my douchey partner at the time.*

 

I did the same. Exactly.

[goodyblue]

I was responding to a post from above. I have extensive experience, not limited at all. Dynamics are important in marriages as they are in families. It doesn't just take one person, or else that person could never be happy or successful in any dynamic. The dynamic is the issue. It doesn't place blame on either person, it places blame on the dynamic of those particular people together. Separate them and put them in different relationships with different dynamics and they can find success and happiness,that isn't anyone's fault, it is just a result of a dynamic of personalities and people.

 

I am currently in a relationship with my former MM. He and I together create a completely different dynamic than he and his ex wife did. That's it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. Some people's dynamics work, some don't. We don't always choose the right partners, not for lack of love or hope or wishing. It just sometimes does not work, period. He and I are happy together and we work well together. I have no doubt that his ex wife will also find happiness, just not with him because their dynamic brought out the worst in each of them, not the best.

 

This is the dynamic with my guy as well. He and I are so much more compatible. We have similar hobbies and sense of humor, enjoy the same things but are still different enough to bring something to the table. I do feel, however, that his ex will become/already is a bitter, self righteous, alcoholic cat woman who will go to her grave angry. For me, that is the most difficult part. I wish she hadn't found out about me. The second she did the marriage was suddenly perfect, she was perfect, and I was the devil who had torn her family apart.

 

Pretty sad.

Edited September 23, 2014 by goodyblue