Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary? What does it look like to the BS? To the WS?

[merrmeade]

This is a great thread and an important one. Most of us are here because we are still devastated in the wake of d-day OR working to resolve issues & emotions that are still affecting us. If we are to express ourselves and understand each other its important that we agree on certain definitions to accurately communicate with each other. This can never happen because we are all so different but it is worth it to get an idea of what regular posters mean when they post words like "acceptance" or "forgiveness". I wish we could eliminate those labels and describe the emotions that they represent, but that too is not reasonable because our posts would balloon in size - none of us want that.

 

The problem I don't see a resolution to is that when a WS/BS/AP uses these words in their story or comments it is always going to generate disagreement. An example would be Owl's conclusion that he forgave his wife a couple months after d-day and believes that he couldn't even consider reconciliation until he reached that point. I think I understand exactly what he means but in no way does that fit my definition of forgiveness. Does that mean he's wrong? Of course not. But I wish he could communicate what combination of logical and emotional conclusions he reached before deciding it was in his best interests to try to move forward with his wife and work through her infidelity instead of packing up and leaving. It would add so much to each of our stories if we could communicate using descriptions of our emotional state instead of the nebulous labels we are forced to use.

So many possible new threads from all this... In fact, I just cut a whole paragraph out to save for another thread on posting and the importance of emotional context - the right kind and amount - and other personal background to enhance usage and commentary. Drifter's post made me realize I've been so submerged in my own issues for so long that I'm only just now able to notice what makes some posts so helpful. Seems that if you're not in the heat and angst of your own trauma, you'll come across as preachy if you don't say why you're here or how you got so wise. Okay, stopping - before I get sidelined for thread-jacking my own thread...

 

As far as 'knowing' now what forgiveness means now, I can't say, but I can say I'm relieved to say it doesn't matter. All these posts have done better than define it; they've canceled it out. It doesn't exist as an event. I mean, I think that the ONLY reason I'm still with my H is that he doesn't ask for it often and when he does, it's not demanding, plaintive or expected. He's just said a very few times, "Can you forgive me?" or "I hope you'll give me another chance." or "Will you let me prove my trust?" He doesn't overdo it. It's not a device and he clearly doesn't think he deserves it. It helps, but he doesn't even say it for that reason. THAT is the beginning of forgiveness maybe. Maybe.

 

I don't know if I forgive him, but I'm still here. It's more of a process and happens incidentally if it's happening. It's a subjective concept that sometimes gauges how much people can commit to the present maybe. If I give it, he still has to forgive himself. And if he's done that before me, I think it's clear we wouldn't reconcile. Your forgiveness may just make it worse. Maybe once it's earned, if there's genuine humility, you wouldn't say anyway.

 

I think this is why I could never 'reconcile' with my sister-in-law - if I even wanted such a thing. She forgave herself before anyone could turn around.

 

I'll give it a name as I walk past maybe.

[fellini]

Drifter is right...I can't honestly say what I would have done had it been PA as well.

 

Here's what did happen. Her EA built up over several months...and while it built, our relationship waned. As she invested in that, she ignored 'us'. I really think it was more obvious to me than it was to either of them, up to the point where they'd both admitted it to each other...which was literally the week before 'd-day'.

 

On d-day, I had transcripts of their IM converations. Proof irrefutable.

 

I confronted her with it, got the ILYBNILWY speech, and I walked out of the house to cool down for several hours. During that time, she communicated with OM who purchased her plane tickets to go live with him...even though they'd never met in person. She'd got the tickets for a few days later to make sure that I didn't just up and leave (which is what I'd often said I'd do if she ever cheated on me for years during our marriage).

 

I came home to that information...and she moved out to a motel room to stay in until her flight.

 

The 'line in the sand' was that if she got on that flight...there was no coming back. PERIOD. EVER. If she went to him (and the gist of that was if it went PA)...I wouldn't take her back. She'd lose me completely, forever out of her life.

 

That was a large part of what broke down the whole thing...and why she didn't get on that flight.

 

Would I have followed through with that? Yes, I'm pretty sure I would have. Would I have leapt to that had PA already occurred before d-day? I'm honestly not sure.

 

Your story interests me with this idea of lines in the sand, and hence, at what point would one not take back a spouse.

 

My WS first spent a great deal of time with a secret crush on her eventual AP. Secret, but she told a friend about some feelings she got when he gave her a "hug".

 

The feelings from that initial physical contact endured months without clear knowledge by the AP.

 

Then began the EA. But I question the split between EA and PA. I think when two people are so attracted to each other that they are going out of their way to spend time with each other whereas in the past they were practically strangers, lunching, museums, coffees, work related trips... just because they have not had sex I do not see why people think it's not a PA. They both want each other so badly it is affecting their emotional AND physical bodies. Like Glass says, getting to the first Kiss is the hardest part, once that is done, the bed is a very short distance.

I digress.

 

She went from EA to PA (actual PA) but not before telling her "confident" of her intention. And again, talking to her IC (for depression) asking him what she should do. In both cases they told her she would lose her marriage and her daughter. This did not persuade her to change course. A line was drawn, albeit not by me, and so there is no hiding behind the smoke and mirrors of "affair fog". Twice she had a sobering conversation with people who told her what I would have told her (essentially, "you get on that plane..." line)

 

But there we were, months after PA, and I'm asking more or less the same question that those two asked: are you prepared to end this relationship?

 

The first response was not a yes... more of a contorted face - so I did what OWL did, and left for two hours, to try to get some sense by talking to some friends.

 

When I returned, I asked the same question, knowing that there was no way I was going to move forward with her if the answer was, once again, not yes.

 

The second time I got it. But again, I learned it wasn't a genuine yes. It was more of a "I'm panicking here as I can see that every single person in my entire world is about to find out from my husband what I have done to my marriage".

 

So my line was she had to tell me it was over. Which she did, but it wasn't, obviously. I was asking for something that was out of my territory and was going to take time.

 

I think that the line, the so-called deal-breaker, simply does not exist other than as a test of our commitment to those words. Beyond those words there are lots of possible scenarios that simply mock our best intentions to have resolve in those words.

 

I think forgiveness is a central issue, and I agree that there are many definitions... more accurately, many KINDS of forgiveness.

 

Forgiving my wife is not high on my list of must have's to reconcile. That forgiveness might take a lot longer and therefore make RECONCILIATION impossible

 

I see it the opposite of what people say here: I must work on reconciliation in order to forgive her.

 

I must also forgive myself for staying in this marriage and fighting for it. This was a very hard part of the reconciliation for me. Forgiving myself for staying when everything inside me told me to walk away.

 

I must also forgive what I have become in order to find reconciliation. I do not want to be this person that has emerged after DDAY. Other than the universal I no longer believe in blind trust, I see no real great advantage to having been transformed into a BS and all that it entails. This I must forgive her before reconciliation. But not the affair.

 

So I think there are levels, and stages of forgiveness, it's not just a "I forgive you" and we move beyond it. I think the process is far more nuanced and personal.

Edited August 8, 2014 by fellini

[DasPope]

I'm not religious in the slightest so I carry no bias. Even though quite a few people here seem to think I just shrugged off my wife's infidelities and its true that we have moved on from them as a couple i don't think my forgiveness in the dictionary definition of the term was much of a part of it or even possible. Acceptance ... Certainly. A refusal to allow the issue to define us as a couple ? ... Absolutely. But forgiving the actual act (s) ? I don't think I could ever reach a point where thinking about it didn't provoke feelings of anger and betrayal. But what happens is you think about it less as time passes, you think about other things, good things. You have fun together, resume the life of a normal couple and it just seems to pass. If you do dwell on it .. The same anger is still there. But you dwell less frequently. One day soon I will make a thread about how the last few months have gone but for now coming up to 6 months past dd for me all I will say is the sooner you can resume normal couple hood the easier it becomes. I'm not really sure the true forgiveness described here even really can exist.

[Bittersweetie]

I think this is why I could never 'reconcile' with my sister-in-law - if I even wanted such a thing. She forgave herself before anyone could turn around.

 

Wow. I'm five years out and still haven't forgiven myself. To be honest I'm not sure if I ever will...not to be a martyr...I've accepted that I made an epically poor and hurtful choice, and learned and grown from that, but I just don't know if I can forgive myself for it.

[seren]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so some of what I say may have already been covered. Saying that, everyone will have their own idea of what forgiveness means, or indeed if it is useful or necessary for them. For me, forgiveness was so necessary if me and he were to have any chance at reconciliation. To begin reconciling without an idea of my own capacity to forgive would have been very difficult.

 

Most people I know were surprised that I didn't just walk away, mistaking my not putting up with nonsense in other areas of my life with what me and he shared and what we felt for each other. Before I could forgive I had to understand why and I understood that very quickly, for those who know my backstory, combat stress played a huge part in the reason for the place that H was in when the A began, not all the reasons, but one that made sense to me, not one he used to explain why, he offered no excuses and owned his part from the get go. I have often asked myself if I could have forgiven if it were a love affair or one that began just because of the need for a fling. I have no answers for that as it wasn't the case. Many of us have said we thought we would never forgive an A and yet when it happens we find ourselves doing just that.

 

Forgiveness, for me, looked like this. Just after H told me, I looked at him and could see how broken he was, my first reaction was to think how broken he looked and to help him to fix it. This through my anger and hurt and sheer disbelief. I never felt hate or disgust, just hurt that he hurt and I asked myself WTF I was thinking when I hugged him and told him he wasn't a bad man and that if he loved another, then I would help him to leave. For me, and I can only speak for myself, his hurt sort of trumped mine, there was no not loving him, I hated what had happened, but not the man I had known and loved for over 22 years at that time.

 

Forgiving didn't mean forgetting or accepting, forgetting never happens, but it has gradually faded to a scar on our old marriage rather than a constant sore. In the early days I never, ever thought that our life could be so good, but it is, despite the A. It is a part of our history, a crap, awful part of it, but balanced against all that is good, it doesn't tip the balance. I weighed up what life could be like without H and just couldn't, I love him and he me, if we had split, that would remain a constant.

 

Trust is the thing that takes the longest, but again, I am of the mind that unless I felt I could trust him with others, then we had no future. I have never checked up, looked at phones etc, for me, that would would have ended things. Trust with all of me, now that took longer, blind trust is not something I think can ever be regained, despite forgiveness.

 

For us, some 7 years on from D Day, the hardest bit has been for H, he struggles to forgive himself, he just cannot reconcile himself to the fact that he was that man, that he caused such hurt to me. This is often still a struggle, when it gets too bad we go to combat stress counsellors who help him and help me to help him. Basically it has come down to H not being able to fix what was wrong at that time and feeling not good enough. Of course the A adds to his feeling helpless and not good enough, so it is a bit of a never ending cycle. Not all A's come from the same book or look the same, that took me a while to understand as I assumed all meant there was an absence of love for the other. If the A had been a love affair I don't know if I could have forgiven, but I will never know.

 

I doubt we could have reconciled if I didn't forgive, I would have been far too angry looking back to look ahead. The moment we were planning ahead and looking ahead I knew we had more than a fighting chance, the how could you's become how can we's, the what, was not as important as what is and what next. If I had harboured anger we couldn't have made it, hurt is a different kettle of fish. We both hurt about it, he for what he did, me for the breaking of trust, but we talk and we deal with it. The moment the A was out in the open it ceases to be about 'them', it becomes about us and how we deal with our relationship, it is no longer hidden and the BS can make an informed choice, I am all for informed choices and truth, if H had continued while continuing to lie, well I would not be able to get past that, that would create resentment and a whole heap of anger.

 

Forgiveness, some 7 years later, looks like pretty much what we have, for me that is, forgiveness for H for himself is harder, but once we unravel all the separate bits of it, I feel we will deal with each one in turn and hopefully he can reconcile himself with himself, if that makes any sense.

[merrmeade]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so some of what I say may have already been covered. Saying that, everyone will have their own idea of what forgiveness means, or indeed if it is useful or necessary for them. For me, forgiveness was so necessary if me and he were to have any chance at reconciliation. To begin reconciling without an idea of my own capacity to forgive would have been very difficult.

 

Most people I know were surprised that I didn't just walk away, mistaking my not putting up with nonsense in other areas of my life with what me and he shared and what we felt for each other. Before I could forgive I had to understand why and I understood that very quickly, for those who know my backstory, combat stress played a huge part in the reason for the place that H was in when the A began, not all the reasons, but one that made sense to me, not one he used to explain why, he offered no excuses and owned his part from the get go. I have often asked myself if I could have forgiven if it were a love affair or one that began just because of the need for a fling. I have no answers for that as it wasn't the case. Many of us have said we thought we would never forgive an A and yet when it happens we find ourselves doing just that.

 

Forgiveness, for me, looked like this. Just after H told me, I looked at him and could see how broken he was, my first reaction was to think how broken he looked and to help him to fix it. This through my anger and hurt and sheer disbelief. I never felt hate or disgust, just hurt that he hurt and I asked myself WTF I was thinking when I hugged him and told him he wasn't a bad man and that if he loved another, then I would help him to leave. For me, and I can only speak for myself, his hurt sort of trumped mine, there was no not loving him, I hated what had happened, but not the man I had known and loved for over 22 years at that time.

 

Forgiving didn't mean forgetting or accepting, forgetting never happens, but it has gradually faded to a scar on our old marriage rather than a constant sore. In the early days I never, ever thought that our life could be so good, but it is, despite the A. It is a part of our history, a crap, awful part of it, but balanced against all that is good, it doesn't tip the balance. I weighed up what life could be like without H and just couldn't, I love him and he me, if we had split, that would remain a constant.

 

Trust is the thing that takes the longest, but again, I am of the mind that unless I felt I could trust him with others, then we had no future. I have never checked up, looked at phones etc, for me, that would would have ended things. Trust with all of me, now that took longer, blind trust is not something I think can ever be regained, despite forgiveness.

 

For us, some 7 years on from D Day, the hardest bit has been for H, he struggles to forgive himself, he just cannot reconcile himself to the fact that he was that man, that he caused such hurt to me. This is often still a struggle, when it gets too bad we go to combat stress counsellors who help him and help me to help him. Basically it has come down to H not being able to fix what was wrong at that time and feeling not good enough. Of course the A adds to his feeling helpless and not good enough, so it is a bit of a never ending cycle. Not all A's come from the same book or look the same, that took me a while to understand as I assumed all meant there was an absence of love for the other. If the A had been a love affair I don't know if I could have forgiven, but I will never know.

 

I doubt we could have reconciled if I didn't forgive, I would have been far too angry looking back to look ahead. The moment we were planning ahead and looking ahead I knew we had more than a fighting chance, the how could you's become how can we's, the what, was not as important as what is and what next. If I had harboured anger we couldn't have made it, hurt is a different kettle of fish. We both hurt about it, he for what he did, me for the breaking of trust, but we talk and we deal with it. The moment the A was out in the open it ceases to be about 'them', it becomes about us and how we deal with our relationship, it is no longer hidden and the BS can make an informed choice, I am all for informed choices and truth, if H had continued while continuing to lie, well I would not be able to get past that, that would create resentment and a whole heap of anger.

 

Forgiveness, some 7 years later, looks like pretty much what we have, for me that is, forgiveness for H for himself is harder, but once we unravel all the separate bits of it, I feel we will deal with each one in turn and hopefully he can reconcile himself with himself, if that makes any sense.

 

I mean to thank you for this. And you had to write ALL of that to give the context and feel of your relationship. It's very touching and kind of hard to read for me. Took me a while to get back to it.

 

I have a lot of resistance to trust and forgiveness and, of course, circumstances and the actual A(s) are quite different. H and I have talked a lot about hurts caused both ways at different times in the marriage - not as a way of excusing other behavior - just stuff that happened, how it felt. Funny but why doesn't seem to matter so much after a while and maybe because it's stupid to figure out why somebody did something 30 years ago. Whoever that person was has long since disappeared. We change so much in a lifetime. I don't think we can even say we've been married 40 years. It was other people.

 

My problem is more about forgiving his current (seeming) lack of introspection and (seeming) unwillingness - or inability - to convince me that he understands who he was and EVERYTHING that was wrong with what he did - not just the no-brainer stuff. He knows adultery is wrong. Duh. He can't talk about it, even stay in the room very long if I'm talking about it, much less look at me. He claims none of the relationships involved love; all involved seduction, "need for a fling." He's owned up once or twice to a sex addiction but not in a way that we could have a conversation about it.

 

I think it's pretty obvious - just rereading what I've written here - that I'm pretty close to working on the present and the future in a hopeful way. And forgiveness, wish that he would disclose freely - well, still trying to philosophize away the gut need for it and make what we have better. Sigh.

 

But, seren, I think that's the best description I ever read of compassion and unselfish love engendered by the genuine remorse of someone who's wronged you - emphasis on genuine.

[Arieswoman]

All, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I apologise if I am going over old ground.

 

Forgiveness is like love - it is all things to all people. I am not even sure what it means to me.

 

I was a BS. I divorced my WS speedily and moved on.

 

I don't know if I have forgiven him or not - he certainly didn't ask for it, nor was he ever sorry for what he did.

 

I found this quote somewhere and I apologise in advance if I haven't given the original author due credit for this ;-

 

" A betrayed wife may forgive, but she will never, ever, forget what she forgave".