Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary? What does it look like to the BS? To the WS?

[drifter777]

Yes. Exactly. And if the betrayed chooses not to focus on forgiveness because other aspects are more important ( or like me- as a non religious person, it has no weight in my life), it just might be something that isn't a goal .

I consider myself quite spiritual but not at all religious. And I completely reject the idea that "forgiveness is for yourself". I find that idea simplistic and condescending.

 

You say that forgiveness is not the goal - let me ask you what is your goal? For me it is peace of mind. I want to go through most days without triggering over something that brings all the pain back into focus. I want to stop hating myself for staying with her. I don't think that forgiveness will give me what I'm looking for and that's a good thing. My wife hasn't earned forgiveness. She never really tried to earn it. After years and years she finally began to understand the magnitude of what she did and apologized for all the pain she caused me. Eventually she even accepted responsibility for being a cheater and her apologies became more real. But there has always been an air of "it's been so long; can't we just move on and never talk about this again?" - and that undermines whatever remorse she shows.

 

I am cozying up to acceptance in that I try to see things from her perspective and I do understand some of her motivations back then. I understand that she has been a good wife and mother since that horrible time, and that counts for something. But she never paid a price for cheating and that's my fault. I should have divorced her to make things right. I've been a very good provider but maybe she would have met a better one. She certainly would have met someone she hadn't cheated on so her relationship with him might also have been better. If only I could go back and take that other path.

[Ronni_W]

It might be that the word 'forgiveness' itself is the biggest stumbling block to feeling, experiencing it...including perceived religious or spiritual connotations.

 

For example, under MY personal definition, I'd be able to say, "Oh, for sure Sue has totally come to forgiveness" -- BUT -- under Sue's personal definition, she most assuredly has not. If she and I each wanted or needed to be 'right' in our assertion...that will always be a war without a winner.

 

Maybe forgiving or 'having forgiveness' is just being able to feel inner peace around whatever event...and it really doesn't matter what process or words we use to describe how we got there?

[HereNorThere]

I think that the posters are simply saying that even if they fully accept and forgive someone, that doesn't change the fact that their spouse is forever tainted.

[drifter777]

Acceptance is no longer denying something took place and acknowleding that you cannot undo what is done. Almost everyone accepts that and affair happened except those that live in denial/rugsweep. Acceptance is important to rebuilding a good relationship. But it isn't the only ingredient.

 

Unless of course the person has accepted that they will forever resent their spouse. I guess that is okay for some people. Still doesn't seem healthy.

Why do you keep shoving your definitions of things like forgiveness or acceptance down my throat? And I don't care what the dictionary says - this is not an English assignment. These are words used to describe feelings and we all feel them differently.

[drifter777]

I don't believe its necessary for reconciliation, nor is it for her. I believe its important for me. Maybe its wishful thinking, or that carrot hanging just out of reach.

 

I get the acceptance, I accept what happened, I accept that I or she can't change it, yet I'm still angry as f u c k when I wake up at 3am dreaming about catching her. Its been 7 years.

Maybe that's something that won't go away. Maybe I'm one of those that can't truely move past it.

Then welcome to a very large and ever-growing group of BS's. The first step is realizing that you are one of us. Then you have to weigh the pro's and con's of staying with the cheater and own your decision.

[katielee]

forgiveness - to ME it's understanding how something could happen. An, "Ok, I get where were you at at that point in your life that you chose that option."

It's not FOR ME - also agree that that is condescending.

 

I simply took it off the table. And worked on my own values and what I would accept in a marriage.

 

I've forgiven him for his first affair. Understand how he got to that point. Have not forgiven him for his second affair. Will probably never. I don't need to have bitterness and resentment over this forever (although I do currently now but I'm a work in progress). I don't hold it over his head. It just means I'll never understand why he did it again after he saw what the first one did to me. There may always be a part of me he doesnt' have because of this. Trust has nothing to do with it but vulnerability does. But "i'd probably never be 100% vulnerable with any man after what I've been through.

 

BUT, there are huge parts of our lives we share together that are worth staying married for.

 

I will define forgiveness for myself, thank you very much.

[HermioneG]

forgiveness - to ME it's understanding how something could happen. An, "Ok, I get where were you at at that point in your life that you chose that option."

It's not FOR ME - also agree that that is condescending.

 

I simply took it off the table. And worked on my own values and what I would accept in a marriage.

 

I've forgiven him for his first affair. Understand how he got to that point. Have not forgiven him for his second affair. Will probably never. I don't need to have bitterness and resentment over this forever (although I do currently now but I'm a work in progress). I don't hold it over his head. It just means I'll never understand why he did it again after he saw what the first one did to me. There may always be a part of me he doesnt' have because of this. Trust has nothing to do with it but vulnerability does. But "i'd probably never be 100% vulnerable with any man after what I've been through.

 

BUT, there are huge parts of our lives we share together that are worth staying married for.

 

I will define forgiveness for myself, thank you very much.

 

This is very, very well stated.

[HermioneG]

So you still hold the affair over your husband's head. I have often seen it quoted by BS a few years out from DDay saying they haven't and won't ever forgive ther spouse but are remaining married. As this post was for discussion and the sharing of different point of views i merely was wondering how one can feel peace and reconciled while still resenting and holding the affair over their WS's head. Does the WS not know this? Do thy know they can never be forgiven and will always remain beneath the BS? Or have these people actually forgiven and don't know it? They may not be talking forgiveness but they are walking it?

 

It seems to be a common idea and i simply do not understand it.

 

I don't hold it over his head. I don't resent him. I accept and understand what happened, and it's part of our history. There are a million wonderful things that came before the affair, and a million wonderful things that came after.

 

I understand what my relationship is. I'd not trade it for anything. I love my spouse with my whole heart, and it's a good thing. Just because my view does my mesh with yours doesn't make my marriage lessor, not does it translate into me being some harridan running around pointing at him.

 

There's peace and love. Isn't that what everyone is after, in the end?

[HermioneG]

I consider myself quite spiritual but not at all religious. And I completely reject the idea that "forgiveness is for yourself". I find that idea simplistic and condescending.

 

You say that forgiveness is not the goal - let me ask you what is your goal? For me it is peace of mind. I want to go through most days without triggering over something that brings all the pain back into focus. I want to stop hating myself for staying with her. I don't think that forgiveness will give me what I'm looking for and that's a good thing. My wife hasn't earned forgiveness. She never really tried to earn it. After years and years she finally began to understand the magnitude of what she did and apologized for all the pain she caused me. Eventually she even accepted responsibility for being a cheater and her apologies became more real. But there has always been an air of "it's been so long; can't we just move on and never talk about this again?" - and that undermines whatever remorse she shows.

 

I am cozying up to acceptance in that I try to see things from her perspective and I do understand some of her motivations back then. I understand that she has been a good wife and mother since that horrible time, and that counts for something. But she never paid a price for cheating and that's my fault. I should have divorced her to make things right. I've been a very good provider but maybe she would have met a better one. She certainly would have met someone she hadn't cheated on so her relationship with him might also have been better. If only I could go back and take that other path.

 

My goal is luckily what I have. A happy, healthy reconciled marriage. The ability not to think about the bad things that happened along the way, except for occasional passing thought when something pops up ( a movie, a book, maybe even time on here). My goal is that the good in my life far outweighs the bad. My goal is that we sleep curled up against each at night. That's peace of mind. I have it.

 

My goal- is the life and peacefulness that I already have. I don't need more of anything, except time with my spouse and family. And if I am being honest, I need a lot of of nail polish. It's my hobby lately.

[Hardgrind]

I don't think I am thread jacking here, because it is part of answering the OP's question about what forgiveness looks like to people.

 

Why do some people think the comment that "forgiveness is also for me" is condescending? It's an honest question, I am surprised that significant portion of the posters feel that way.

[katielee]

.

 

Why do some people think the comment that "forgiveness is also for me" is condescending? It's an honest question, I am surprised that significant portion of the posters feel that way.

 

I think it implies that it must be done to reconcile. I disagree. I think acceptance could likely result in a better reconciliation but forgiveness, no.

 

I don't HAVE to forgive. It doesn't make me any less of a successful person for not doing so.

[HermioneG]

I think it implies that it must be done to reconcile. I disagree. I think acceptance could likely result in a better reconciliation but forgiveness, no.

 

I don't HAVE to forgive. It doesn't make me any less of a successful person for not doing so.

 

What she said.

[drifter777]

HermioneG: You have achieved your goal of a happy, reconciled marriage without forgiving him - awesome! Knowing that we all have a different sense of forgiveness I am wondering if you can articulate yours? I respect that you are happy and at peace with your WS and your marriage. I just know that I couldn't reach the state you describe without finding forgiveness as I define it.

[HermioneG]

HermioneG: You have achieved your goal of a happy, reconciled marriage without forgiving him - awesome! Knowing that we all have a different sense of forgiveness I am wondering if you can articulate yours? I respect that you are happy and at peace with your WS and your marriage. I just know that I couldn't reach the state you describe without finding forgiveness as I define it.

 

I think KatieLee explained it very well above, as does Janis Abrams in her book. But basically, for me, forgiveness is tied into the why of what he chose to do, for me. And it goes further, in my head, than simply accepting that it happened.

 

I know forgiveness is not a blank slate. But his actions crossed a line that I don't feel qualify for what I would ever give forgiveness for. Can I recover and have I from the damage that his actions caused? Yes. But the root actions that caused this aren't things that I am going to forgive.

 

He has shown himself to be worthy of reconciliation. He turned himself inside out to save us. For all of the things that came before and after, he's been worth it all.

 

But the actual decisions to risk us and the life we built? I'll never understand those choices ( even though I understand the psych reasons).

 

It's hard to explain. I hope I made sense. To be fair- I don't really think about it that much anymore, and I haven't put much energy into the idea of forgiveness for years. Which is probably why I want people to be able to decide how they want to heal from this without someone telling them they "must" do certain things or else. Other than straight honesty? I don't think anything has to happen in a reconciliation. I think people have to know their own hearts and find out what happens .

[drifter777]

HermioneG: Thank you. I too think that your message is important and that people should not depend on some definition of a particular word to measure their happiness. Reconciliation means exactly what it means to the BS. It's a really good message.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I am also in the camp of not having to forgive to move forward from an event.

 

There are certain people/events that I simply will never give forgiveness for....they can get their absolution from someone/thing else.

 

Acceptance on the other hand....helped me tremendously to move forward. I do not carry resentment towards them or from those events....they do not define me. There was nothing that I had to pick up and carry...it was ALL theirs to deal with. There was nothing in myself that was "liable" from those events...it was done TO me...not BY me.

 

There were things that I have done that I had to forgive myself for...to heal fully. Acceptance just would not have motivated the personal change that I required. Forgiveness required something from me. I had to earn my own self forgiveness.

 

I believe because of that....earned forgiveness means so much more. Not for another to forgive another. But for ourselves. I do not look for other people to tell me how far I have come.....I ALREADY KNOW IT. I FREAKING KNOW IT!!!

I do not need anyone else's validation except for mine.

 

 

So, for me. I do not need to "work" on forgiving something that I had no responsibility in. My responsibility is to myself to not let it define me in a negative way.

 

Forgiveness? That is for an OFFENDER to earn.

[drifter777]

...

There were things that I have done that I had to forgive myself for...to heal fully. Acceptance just would not have motivated the personal change that I required. Forgiveness required something from me. I had to earn my own self forgiveness.

 

...

 

So, for me. I do not need to "work" on forgiving something that I had no responsibility in. My responsibility is to myself to not let it define me in a negative way.

 

Forgiveness? That is for an OFFENDER to earn.

Thank you so much for posting this! Your words crystallized something that has been passing through my head for years. I cannot forgive myself for not divorcing my wife because I haven't earned my own forgiveness. Forgive her for cheating? Hell no - but I have gotten to a place of acceptance with that. But acceptance is not enough for the sin I committed on myself for not divorcing her. For me to forgive myself means divorcing her now. That is the only thing I can see that can balance the scale and, hopefully, lead to finally forgiving myself.

 

But I don't think I can do it. We are now parents of my grandson and still battling for custody in court. I would give my life for that little boy. If and when his mother is able to care for him again and life gets back to normal, I still don't think I can do it. There has to be another way - some way to punish her that can balance things out for me.

[compulsivedancer]

I think forgiveness is one of those concepts that means different things to different people. I don't really think anyone here meant to shove a particular version of forgiveness down someone's throat. It's normal to state your own opinion without adding "I think" to the beginning of it every single time. It sounds like those who have not forgiven are a bit sensitive because they've had to defend their positions a lot. Which is fine, but I think we've had pretty mild responses on this thread, and practically none of the posts were meant personally.

 

I looked up forgiveness for this thread, like one of the earlier posters, because it's kind of a hard term for me to pin down. In the dictionary, forgiveness ranges from really mild (reconciliation) to extreme (absolution).

 

It seems to me that there are some who expect full-on absolution and beat themselves up if they can't provide it. This seems kind of silly to me, as it seems like not allowing for consequences or remembering history. It also seems like it can be a bit of self-flagellation. But some people require this to fully move on.

 

For others, acceptance is enough. To me this is like a low-level forgiveness. You forgive the person enough to move on. You accept the circumstances and are willing to work through the consequences, but you don't necessarily let go of the cause or all of the emotions associated with it, and you certainly don't absolve the person of wrongdoing.

 

I believe this is where H is at. I'm not sure he will ever "forgive" me, even if I do the work required for forgiveness. If he reads this, he can correct me, but I don't think anything I do will have an effect on him forgiving me. I think it's something that he may or may not come to in time, that will be wholly personal and internal. (Obviously, work that I do can make it easier for him to move past my A, but I don't think - for him - his forgiveness is contingent on my actions).

 

I think most of the time people use the term forgiveness, as I used it just now, as something in between. But as with lots of words describing abstract concepts, there is a range of use and it doesn't mean exactly the same from one person to the next.

 

I think that forgiveness can be an important part of healing, but there are times where it's not possible (or perhaps not even desirable) for that person, and it's not always necessary for everyone. And forgiveness may not look the same for every person.

 

Each person gets to decide what will make it possible to live with him/herself and the SO. If acceptance is what you need, then that's enough. If it's not getting you where you need to go, then you need to step it up and seek to forgive. If that's not possible, then you're stuck in an untenable situation and must deal accordingly. Each person and couple gets to decide for themselves.

[compulsivedancer]

Thank you so much for posting this! Your words crystallized something that has been passing through my head for years. I cannot forgive myself for not divorcing my wife because I haven't earned my own forgiveness. Forgive her for cheating? Hell no - but I have gotten to a place of acceptance with that. But acceptance is not enough for the sin I committed on myself for not divorcing her. For me to forgive myself means divorcing her now. That is the only thing I can see that can balance the scale and, hopefully, lead to finally forgiving myself.

 

But I don't think I can do it. We are now parents of my grandson and still battling for custody in court. I would give my life for that little boy. If and when his mother is able to care for him again and life gets back to normal, I still don't think I can do it. There has to be another way - some way to punish her that can balance things out for me.

 

If this is about YOU forgiving YOURSELF, why are you looking for a way to punish HER? If you want to divorce her, do it. But do it because you can't be whole with her, not as a punishment. You need to find a way to make YOURSELF whole, with or without her. Stop making it about her. If you've truly accepted her A, it's no longer about that. Now it's about becoming a whole man and finding a way to accept or forgive your own choices.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Thank you so much for posting this! Your words crystallized something that has been passing through my head for years. I cannot forgive myself for not divorcing my wife because I haven't earned my own forgiveness. Forgive her for cheating? Hell no - but I have gotten to a place of acceptance with that. But acceptance is not enough for the sin I committed on myself for not divorcing her. For me to forgive myself means divorcing her now. That is the only thing I can see that can balance the scale and, hopefully, lead to finally forgiving myself.

 

But I don't think I can do it. We are now parents of my grandson and still battling for custody in court. I would give my life for that little boy. If and when his mother is able to care for him again and life gets back to normal, I still don't think I can do it. There has to be another way - some way to punish her that can balance things out for me.

 

 

Self forgiveness has nothing to do with punishing another.

 

Isn't it enough to acknowledge that at the time of discovery that you were not strong enough to divorce....and also acknowledging that you are now (if you truly are there).

[merrmeade]

It all sounds like circular logic to me and, sorry, but I'm more convinced than ever that it's not real and just means you don't care any more. Maybe you understand the whys and the wherefores, have moved on and can't be hurt by it any more. But "forgiving" is just too drippy with forced goodness to me. Also I feel burned by it. My sister-in-law, the OW, asked me to forgive her in a short 2-sentence note. I was touched. I felt genuine compassion. I thought I forgave - but THEN I actually talked to her and felt myself back in d-day paralysis.

 

No, I consider myself a survivor of a holocaust that I can never allow anyone to diminish or deny. If I forgive, I will cease to exist I feel. It would be like the ultimate gas-lighting.

 

So whatever peace and closure it supposedly brings, if it is not something you can understand until you feel it, you cannot work for it until you grow to it and I personally feel that I would disappear as a person, then I think this forgiveness thing is, at the very least, an anathema for me and I shall leave it.

[ForeverTainted]

I don't hold it over his head. I don't resent him. I accept and understand what happened, and it's part of our history. There are a million wonderful things that came before the affair, and a million wonderful things that came after.

 

I understand what my relationship is. I'd not trade it for anything. I love my spouse with my whole heart, and it's a good thing. Just because my view does my mesh with yours doesn't make my marriage lessor, not does it translate into me being some harridan running around pointing at him.

 

There's peace and love. Isn't that what everyone is after, in the end?

 

See and this is what to forgive some means to me. It is a simple concept that isn't always an easy journey. Because to resent and to punish someone is the opposite of to forgive. So to me you have forgiven him or at least your actions and feelings are in line with what forgiveness is before it is over thought and complicated. I am not even sure why to sinply acknowledge you have at least a measure of forgiveness in your heart would be so bad? Having a grudge is also the opposite of forgiveness and doesn't sound like where you are at. In fact you haven't actually mentioned one thing that defines why you haven't forgiven.

 

So whatever you call your state of being sounds like the forgiveness most people want in reconciliation which you call merel acceptance and yet is so much more than acceptance. You can accept someone did something and still want them to pay for their deed. To forgive is to no longer expect repayment.

[ForeverTainted]

I think KatieLee explained it very well above, as does Janis Abrams in her book. But basically, for me, forgiveness is tied into the why of what he chose to do, for me. And it goes further, in my head, than simply accepting that it happened.

 

I know forgiveness is not a blank slate. But his actions crossed a line that I don't feel qualify for what I would ever give forgiveness for. Can I recover and have I from the damage that his actions caused? Yes. But the root actions that caused this aren't things that I am going to forgive.

 

He has shown himself to be worthy of reconciliation. He turned himself inside out to save us. For all of the things that came before and after, he's been worth it all.

 

But the actual decisions to risk us and the life we built? I'll never understand those choices ( even though I understand the psych reasons).

 

It's hard to explain. I hope I made sense. To be fair- I don't really think about it that much anymore, and I haven't put much energy into the idea of forgiveness for years. Which is probably why I want people to be able to decide how they want to heal from this without someone telling them they "must" do certain things or else. Other than straight honesty? I don't think anything has to happen in a reconciliation. I think people have to know their own hearts and find out what happens .

 

Sounds to me more like you dislike the word but daily live in it by actions. Or you simply have "to forgive" set on some unattainable pedestle. Like people who say "forgive AND forget". Maybe the little things that are easy to forgive should be forgotten. But no one is going to forget being cheated on. Forgive does not mean forget.

[ForeverTainted]

Thank you so much for posting this! Your words crystallized something that has been passing through my head for years. I cannot forgive myself for not divorcing my wife because I haven't earned my own forgiveness. Forgive her for cheating? Hell no - but I have gotten to a place of acceptance with that. But acceptance is not enough for the sin I committed on myself for not divorcing her. For me to forgive myself means divorcing her now. That is the only thing I can see that can balance the scale and, hopefully, lead to finally forgiving myself.

 

But I don't think I can do it. We are now parents of my grandson and still battling for custody in court. I would give my life for that little boy. If and when his mother is able to care for him again and life gets back to normal, I still don't think I can do it. There has to be another way - some way to punish her that can balance things out for me.

 

Actually I get this. At this point I have not forgiven myself for cheating. And I don't see myself doing so in the future. I will not stop resenting my cheating nor will I stop trying to make amends for it. Even though my husband has forgiven me.

[ForeverTainted]

It all sounds like circular logic to me and, sorry, but I'm more convinced than ever that it's not real and just means you don't care any more. Maybe you understand the whys and the wherefores, have moved on and can't be hurt by it any more. But "forgiving" is just too drippy with forced goodness to me. Also I feel burned by it. My sister-in-law, the OW, asked me to forgive her in a short 2-sentence note. I was touched. I felt genuine compassion. I thought I forgave - but THEN I actually talked to her and felt myself back in d-day paralysis.

 

No, I consider myself a survivor of a holocaust that I can never allow anyone to diminish or deny. If I forgive, I will cease to exist I feel. It would be like the ultimate gas-lighting.

 

So whatever peace and closure it supposedly brings, if it is not something you can understand until you feel it, you cannot work for it until you grow to it and I personally feel that I would disappear as a person, then I think this forgiveness thing is, at the very least, an anathema for me and I shall leave it.

 

I am sorry you were so destroyed by other people's selfish actions.

 

But, i mean this gently, as someone who had a grandmother barely escape the Holocaust and lose her parents to it, comparing infidelity to the brutal torture and death of millions of people, it is an offensive word to use. And I am not saying this to make you feel bad for your pain but to encourage you to use a different term.