Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary? What does it look like to the BS? To the WS?

[katielee]

 

It leads to the question I have for you. I guessing your husband was faithful before your affair, so does the fact that you had the A make you feel in some part responsable for creating the a marriage that infidelity was an option? Does that or should that play a role in accepting and/or forgiving him?

 

His 2 affairs don't wipe your 1 away, assuming he was faithful before, it likely lead to an "oh f u c k it, why not" attitude when he was faced with the decision to or not to.

 

I'm honestly wondering, because I come close to cheating as a response to her cheating, I actively searched for a romp or two. I simple couldn't go through with it.

 

he was faithful before. Yes I feel responsible. I know I caused his pain. But I didn't cause his affairs, if that makes any sense. He had many other options, including divorce.

 

Should that play a role in acceptance and forgiving? I think it did, although it probably shouldn't have, no one deserves to be affaired on no matter what the reason.... I have forgiven one affair. i understand how he got to that place.

 

He absolutely justified his actions based on mine. He saw how wrong this was. IF he didn't, I wouldn't be with him. And he can't call himself a good guy anymore and that slays him. He understands he didn't have to act out that way.

 

But I also think he considers us even and we should just move on. It doesn't work that way. His acting out by affairing didn't erase his pain of being a BS.

[DKT3]

he was faithful before. Yes I feel responsible. I know I caused his pain. But I didn't cause his affairs, if that makes any sense. He had many other options, including divorce.

 

Should that play a role in acceptance and forgiving? I think it did, although it probably shouldn't have, no one deserves to be affaired on no matter what the reason.... I have forgiven one affair. i understand how he got to that place.

 

He absolutely justified his actions based on mine. He saw how wrong this was. IF he didn't, I wouldn't be with him. And he can't call himself a good guy anymore and that slays him. He understands he didn't have to act out that way.

 

But I also think he considers us even and we should just move on.It doesn't work that way. His acting out by affairing didn't erase his pain of being a BS.

Highlighted part is why I decided to not sleep with another woman. I knew it wouldn't make me feel better.

 

I asked for a two sided reason. For a long time I accepted blame for her affair because she asked, and she begged for me to find a job that I didn't have to travel for, I refused. As a result I felt that I CAUSED the affair. Now I understand its her affair, I played no role in that. I was a subpar husband, many of my actions justified a divorce had she choose that. None justified the affair. I accept that my actions made her unhappy, and may have opened her up to the affair, I accept no blame for the affair itself. Thus forgiving it (for what that means to me) is something I hope for but doubt I can ever find.

 

To her credit (I guess you can say) she doesn't want me to, she feels that only when I don't think about it or trigger and I no longer hurt because of it, should my forgiving her be on the table.

Edited August 6, 2014 by DKT3

[merrmeade]

For me in the beginning forgiveness was a big fat lie that I told myself to draw a line under it all. I actually told H I forgave him just a few weeks after dday because we we were actually closer than we had been in years and I wanted it to be all OK. H was the one who said that I shouldn't say that. He was right and I had to take it back many many times.

 

I see forgiveness now as being mostly acceptance rather than anything more proactive. The man I am with now, the kind, loving, understanding, appreciative man, is forgiven and loved. That is the man who I am planning the rest of my life with. But when I allow myself to think about the worst times, the worst things that happened, the anger and pain bubble up and the total effing barsteward who screwed me over with witch from hell probably won't ever be forgiven! All I can do is accept that it happened and accept that it hurts and probably always will, and move on. Like being dangerously ill - the memories are dreadful but it passed and I am doing well.

 

Thank you for this. It's what I think could happen - not that it's perfect but just the opposite. It's a mixed bag of acceptance, forgetting and being constantly reassured that he doesn't want to be that person he was.

[compulsivedancer]

Please stop telling me, and others, what forgiveness look like.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

We are all on here discussing what forgiveness means. ForeverTainted has as much right as anyone to express her interpretations, including interpretations of others' posts. Unless the thread starter has an issue with it, she is as welcome with her opinion as you are.

 

If it really bothers you, use the ignore button.

[drifter777]

We are all on here discussing what forgiveness means. ForeverTainted has as much right as anyone to express her interpretations, including interpretations of others' posts. Unless the thread starter has an issue with it, she is as welcome with her opinion as you are.

 

If it really bothers you, use the ignore button.

 

She doesn't use it in the context of what forgiveness means to her, she uses her definition to point out how wrong we are. Big difference.

[merrmeade]

Yeah, I agree. Preaching - rather than talking from personal experience or at least giving reference or context to an opinion - is annoying but there are so many other contributions. It's been a good conversation and helpful for me anyway and others, I hope. Can we just stay on the subject? I think she got the message.

[ForeverTainted]

Oh I got it. Don't discuss the things you don't get. I merely clarified to me that those who feel they have succesfully R without forgving have in fact filled what I see as forgiveness. Which left me curious as to what more forgiveness would actually add or look like. That hasn't been really actually been answered. Maybe just the actual words "i forgive you" I guess. Personaly, I don't think the actual statment is necessary in order to forgive. Like the good ol cliche actions speak louder than words. If your actions are forgiving then I imagine the perpetrator feels they are no longer under punishment for their crime. The unpayable debt as been forgiven and repayment no longer required. Now the couple are equal partners building a life together where both are free to express concerns and issues without fear of the imbalance of past "sins" being held against them. What more would this undefined forgiveness look like than that?

 

Those that have not and will not forgiven their spouse are perfectly in their right to do so. I don't think it is wrong to not forgive. I just am confused when they describe living forgiveness.

[ForeverTainted]

I am fairly religious but still can't seem to forgive my H for his betrayal. So, just because someone is "religious" doesn't mean forgiveness comes any easier.

 

I've come close a few times...or will go for a period of time where I think I have forgiven him but then it comes back in full force.

 

I was hardly the poster child for a successful reconciliation but I don't regret at all having done so. I just haven't/can't figure out the forgiveness part. I don't think I have it in me to forgive and I know I am a grudge holder.

 

I don't see anyone trying to force their idea of forgiveness on anyone...I just see

a lot of people here struggling in their own way with the concept.

 

I have a friend who hurt me in a terrible way. It doesn't always have to be infidelity to hurt. She has never apologized but she has become a good friend again. I know we were much younger (young adults) when it happened and are both different people now. For the longest time thouh the resentment would pop up and remind me i still held her rather disgusting actions against her. This happened when we would have a normal disagreement. I was hypersensitive towards her.

 

Then, one day she did something not cool. She cancelled on a bery important date. I was hurt but though it is hard to explain for the fitst time I was hurt by her present actions and not the one from our younger days. If I wanted to dwell on it it would still bring up negative feelings but not in the overwhelming way.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is. Be patient with yourself. I think feelings of forgiveness come and go. We are only human and we cannot achieve sime unearthly level of forgiveness. But it time you may find the being in a place where you have forgiven him is more often than not.

 

It does help when the behaviour that wounded is no longer there. Repeat behaviour is just keeping a wound fresh.

[Ronni_W]

I just am confused when they describe living forgiveness.

No worries, ForeverTainted...it is that TO YOU they are "living forgiveness" but TO THEM that isn't the term they use for how they are living their own lives.

Further they DO NOT WANT TO define their own life in that way...and they DO NOT WANT others assigning terms or labels to their own life.

 

I totally get your definition of 'forgiveness'...and it fits quite nicely -- but not altogether -- with mine. But that just OUR stuff...and we need not be confused at all just because THEIR stuff is different than our stuff

[gettingstronger]

I must be one of those that define forgiveness differently, because it was easy to forgive-its the processing and acceptance part that is kicking my butt-

 

When I found out, I too packed his bags and wished him well- no strings attached, no threats, no begging-just go and be with the one you want-he is the one that begged and sobbed for another chance with me-

 

I felt like forgiveness was the first step in agreeing to try to reconcile but I am having a hard time processing and accepting the lies and betrayal associated with an A-

 

I have a hard time seeing him as worthy, he seems so tainted to me because he was able to do things I never could imagine he could-

 

Interestingly, he defines forgiveness much like many posters on here and is having a hard time forgiving himself- he seems to have accepted the things he did but can not forgive himself for them-

 

IDK maybe in the end we are all talking about the same things but attaching different words to them-

[Owl]

Within days after d-day, I told my wife "I forgive you". I thought I had.

 

But I couldn't have, because at that point in time I had no true idea of the scope of what I was trying to forgive.

 

I think that I truly forgave her several months later, when I realized that the damage she'd caused with her choice to have an EA with an online friend wasn't going to completely destroy our family, our relationship.

 

Once I completely understood what it was I was trying to forgive, and knew the full ramifications and outcome of those actions that I was going to forgive.

 

Forgiveness to me means no longer looking at that person and focusing on the pain/hurt/anger created by the past action that they did that you've chosen to forgive. You put it in the past...you don't let it taint your present, nor your future.

 

I'm not angry or hurt anymore over what happened. It's in the past, it's part of our history, and it didn't ruin our present nor future. It has no real bearing on the present or future of our relationship.

 

She made some poor decisions that hurt me considerably at the time and for a while afterwards...and she suffered for those same choices as well.

 

But that was then...this is now.

 

I forgave her.

 

I think it's required for reconciliation. If you can't forgive, if you can't put it in the past and not let it affect your present nor future...you efforts to reconcile are going to be greatly affected by that choice.

 

This is my opinion...others may agree with it or not. I'm not saying it's the only right answer...it's MY RIGHT ANSWER.

[Ronni_W]

I felt like forgiveness was the first step in agreeing to try to reconcile but I am having a hard time processing and accepting the lies and betrayal associated with an A-

My experience of "forgiveness" is similar to yours. For me, it's just how I feel on the inside...which I get can also be called 'acceptance' or (a measure of) 'inner peace around the event'.

 

For me also, accepting the unchangeable, un-undoable facts of what happened and acceptance of the effects, impact on me of the action, attitude are two separate things...the former just needs my logic, intellect...the latter brings my perceptions, feelings into the equation. (FOR ME, that's all I'm saying.)

 

I am stymied on the 'trusting him again' part, deep-down and to feel safe, protected, respected by him; to make myself vulnerable with and for him...even though...I do understand where he was and I forgive him for being...and accept that he is...just a human being and as prone to miserable judgment, irrational thinking and making mistakes as I am.

[katielee]

 

I think it's required for reconciliation. If you can't forgive, if you can't put it in the past and not let it affect your present nor future...you efforts to reconcile are going to be greatly affected by that choice.

 

This is my opinion...others may agree with it or not. I'm not saying it's the only right answer...it's MY RIGHT ANSWER.

 

it does affect my present because I don't trust him 100% and never will again. I will make my life fuller and not put all my eggs in his basket because of the past.

But I don't think that has anything to do with forgiveness or lack thereof.

To think that I wont' be affected in some way forever- hard to see right now but maybe.

[Owl]

it does affect my present because I don't trust him 100% and never will again. I will make my life fuller and not put all my eggs in his basket because of the past.

But I don't think that has anything to do with forgiveness or lack thereof.

To think that I wont' be affected in some way forever- hard to see right now but maybe.

 

I get that about not ever trusting again 100%. I've learned that no relationship is 100% safe. To me, that isn't limited to my marriage to my wife. If we divorced today...I wouldn't trust anyone else I met afterwards to the same degree I did my wife prior to all of this. My view on relationships has changed...not my view on my marriage to her.

[ForeverTainted]

No worries, ForeverTainted...it is that TO YOU they are "living forgiveness" but TO THEM that isn't the term they use for how they are living their own lives.

Further they DO NOT WANT TO define their own life in that way...and they DO NOT WANT others assigning terms or labels to their own life.

 

I totally get your definition of 'forgiveness'...and it fits quite nicely -- but not altogether -- with mine. But that just OUR stuff...and we need not be confused at all just because THEIR stuff is different than our stuff

 

I think that understanding what each othher means is important because when I initially said I don't think reconciliation is going to be good without forgiveness and others disagreed some of us didn't actually disagree on the actions just the word. And I have been often confused by people who say they are reconciled but will never forgive their SO. It seems contradictory when it comes to the basic definition. I still am curious what forgiveing actually would look like to them and if it is actually humanly possible.

[drifter777]

This is a great thread and an important one. Most of us are here because we are still devastated in the wake of d-day OR working to resolve issues & emotions that are still affecting us. If we are to express ourselves and understand each other its important that we agree on certain definitions to accurately communicate with each other. This can never happen because we are all so different but it is worth it to get an idea of what regular posters mean when they post words like "acceptance" or "forgiveness". I wish we could eliminate those labels and describe the emotions that they represent, but that too is not reasonable because our posts would balloon in size - none of us want that.

 

The problem I don't see a resolution to is that when a WS/BS/AP uses these words in their story or comments it is always going to generate disagreement. An example would be Owl's conclusion that he forgave his wife a couple months after d-day and believes that he couldn't even consider reconciliation until he reached that point. I think I understand exactly what he means but in no way does that fit my definition of forgiveness. Does that mean he's wrong? Of course not. But I wish he could communicate what combination of logical and emotional conclusions he reached before deciding it was in his best interests to try to move forward with his wife and work through her infidelity instead of packing up and leaving. It would add so much to each of our stories if we could communicate using descriptions of our emotional state instead of the nebulous labels we are forced to use.

[jm2013]

Within days after d-day, I told my wife "I forgive you". I thought I had.

 

But I couldn't have, because at that point in time I had no true idea of the scope of what I was trying to forgive.

 

I think that I truly forgave her several months later, when I realized that the damage she'd caused with her choice to have an EA with an online friend wasn't going to completely destroy our family, our relationship.

 

Once I completely understood what it was I was trying to forgive, and knew the full ramifications and outcome of those actions that I was going to forgive.

 

Forgiveness to me means no longer looking at that person and focusing on the pain/hurt/anger created by the past action that they did that you've chosen to forgive. You put it in the past...you don't let it taint your present, nor your future.

 

I'm not angry or hurt anymore over what happened. It's in the past, it's part of our history, and it didn't ruin our present nor future. It has no real bearing on the present or future of our relationship.

 

She made some poor decisions that hurt me considerably at the time and for a while afterwards...and she suffered for those same choices as well.

 

But that was then...this is now.

 

I forgave her.

 

I think it's required for reconciliation. If you can't forgive, if you can't put it in the past and not let it affect your present nor future...you efforts to reconcile are going to be greatly affected by that choice.

 

This is my opinion...others may agree with it or not. I'm not saying it's the only right answer...it's MY RIGHT ANSWER.

 

Out of curiosity, would you have been able to give the same forgiveness if it was a full blown EA and PA?

[drifter777]

Out of curiosity, would you have been able to give the same forgiveness if it was a full blown EA and PA?

Owl will give you has answer but I don't think this is a fair question. It is not possible to know how he would react unless it actually happens. As all of us know - what you THINK you would do if your wife has sex with OM is all changed when you find out it actually happened.

[Bittersweetie]

This is a great thread and an important one.

 

I just would like to second Drifter's comment that this has been a great and important thread. I am still growing and learning and threads like this give me a better understanding of the other side and what my H may be or has gone through. It gives us talking points. Thank you Merrmeade for starting it.

[jm2013]

Owl will give you has answer but I don't think this is a fair question. It is not possible to know how he would react unless it actually happens. As all of us know - what you THINK you would do if your wife has sex with OM is all changed when you find out it actually happened.

 

Yeah drifter, you're right. I guess we could play ifs all day long. But when it does happen we all have different reactions than what we probably originally "said" we'd do if those types of events were to ever unfold.

[Owl]

Out of curiosity, would you have been able to give the same forgiveness if it was a full blown EA and PA?

 

Drifter is right...I can't honestly say what I would have done had it been PA as well.

 

Here's what did happen. Her EA built up over several months...and while it built, our relationship waned. As she invested in that, she ignored 'us'. I really think it was more obvious to me than it was to either of them, up to the point where they'd both admitted it to each other...which was literally the week before 'd-day'.

 

On d-day, I had transcripts of their IM converations. Proof irrefutable.

 

I confronted her with it, got the ILYBNILWY speech, and I walked out of the house to cool down for several hours. During that time, she communicated with OM who purchased her plane tickets to go live with him...even though they'd never met in person. She'd got the tickets for a few days later to make sure that I didn't just up and leave (which is what I'd often said I'd do if she ever cheated on me for years during our marriage).

 

I came home to that information...and she moved out to a motel room to stay in until her flight.

 

The 'line in the sand' was that if she got on that flight...there was no coming back. PERIOD. EVER. If she went to him (and the gist of that was if it went PA)...I wouldn't take her back. She'd lose me completely, forever out of her life.

 

That was a large part of what broke down the whole thing...and why she didn't get on that flight.

 

Would I have followed through with that? Yes, I'm pretty sure I would have. Would I have leapt to that had PA already occurred before d-day? I'm honestly not sure.

[Owl]

The problem I don't see a resolution to is that when a WS/BS/AP uses these words in their story or comments it is always going to generate disagreement. An example would be Owl's conclusion that he forgave his wife a couple months after d-day and believes that he couldn't even consider reconciliation until he reached that point. I think I understand exactly what he means but in no way does that fit my definition of forgiveness. Does that mean he's wrong? Of course not. But I wish he could communicate what combination of logical and emotional conclusions he reached before deciding it was in his best interests to try to move forward with his wife and work through her infidelity instead of packing up and leaving. It would add so much to each of our stories if we could communicate using descriptions of our emotional state instead of the nebulous labels we are forced to use.

 

Drifter...I'm going to give that some thought over the next few days, and hopefully post a new thread along these lines sometime early next week, if I can make any semblence of an intelligent write up of that.

[HermioneG]

I get that about not ever trusting again 100%. I've learned that no relationship is 100% safe. To me, that isn't limited to my marriage to my wife. If we divorced today...I wouldn't trust anyone else I met afterwards to the same degree I did my wife prior to all of this. My view on relationships has changed...not my view on my marriage to her.

 

I actually believe that not 100% trust in anyone, anyone and everyone, is a very smart move. I don't mean in a wiretap his/her life sort of way, but just the recognition that life is not always exactly what it seems, and wide open eyes with the occasional usage of trust but verify? Can be a very good thing.

 

I don't limit that approach to just my FWH either. It's to everyone in my life.

[GorillaTheater]

I actually believe that not 100% trust in anyone, anyone and everyone, is a very smart move. I don't mean in a wiretap his/her life sort of way, but just the recognition that life is not always exactly what it seems, and wide open eyes with the occasional usage of trust but verify? Can be a very good thing.

 

I don't limit that approach to just my FWH either. It's to everyone in my life.

 

"Trust, but verify". It's the smart way to go in almost any endeavor.

[MuddyFootprints]

To me, forgiveness is a place of internal peace.

 

I can cage the dragon, befriend the dragon, or slay the dragon.

 

My belief is that a caged dragon will continue to roar.

 

For me, forgiveness is essential to grow and move forward with a peaceful heart.