Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary? What does it look like to the BS? To the WS?

[HereNorThere]

Holocaust is a word like destruction. It's like saying prohibition and not referring the American prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s. She said holocaust, not the WWII holocaust in Germany.

[ForeverTainted]

Holocaust is a word like destruction. It's like saying prohibition and not referring the American prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s. She said holocaust, not the WWII holocaust in Germany.

 

I was only sharing with her how people who have actually went through or been close to someone who has may feel about the word that brings The Holocaust to mind may feel with it's usauge. If she doesn't care then oh well but if she does she may want to find a better word:

[merrmeade]

I think forgiveness is one of those concepts that means different things to different people. I don't really think anyone here meant to shove a particular version of forgiveness down someone's throat. It's normal to state your own opinion without adding "I think" to the beginning of it every single time. It sounds like those who have not forgiven are a bit sensitive because they've had to defend their positions a lot. Which is fine, but I think we've had pretty mild responses on this thread, and practically none of the posts were meant personally.

 

I looked up forgiveness for this thread, like one of the earlier posters, because it's kind of a hard term for me to pin down. In the dictionary, forgiveness ranges from really mild (reconciliation) to extreme (absolution).

 

It seems to me that there are some who expect full-on absolution and beat themselves up if they can't provide it. This seems kind of silly to me, as it seems like not allowing for consequences or remembering history. It also seems like it can be a bit of self-flagellation. But some people require this to fully move on.

 

For others, acceptance is enough. To me this is like a low-level forgiveness. You forgive the person enough to move on. You accept the circumstances and are willing to work through the consequences, but you don't necessarily let go of the cause or all of the emotions associated with it, and you certainly don't absolve the person of wrongdoing.

 

I believe this is where H is at. I'm not sure he will ever "forgive" me, even if I do the work required for forgiveness. If he reads this, he can correct me, but I don't think anything I do will have an effect on him forgiving me. I think it's something that he may or may not come to in time, that will be wholly personal and internal. (Obviously, work that I do can make it easier for him to move past my A, but I don't think - for him - his forgiveness is contingent on my actions).

 

I think most of the time people use the term forgiveness, as I used it just now, as something in between. But as with lots of words describing abstract concepts, there is a range of use and it doesn't mean exactly the same from one person to the next.

 

I think that forgiveness can be an important part of healing, but there are times where it's not possible (or perhaps not even desirable) for that person, and it's not always necessary for everyone. And forgiveness may not look the same for every person.

 

Each person gets to decide what will make it possible to live with him/herself and the SO. If acceptance is what you need, then that's enough. If it's not getting you where you need to go, then you need to step it up and seek to forgive. If that's not possible, then you're stuck in an untenable situation and must deal accordingly. Each person and couple gets to decide for themselves.

 

Why can't all WSs be like THAT?

[merrmeade]

I am sorry you were so destroyed by other people's selfish actions.

 

But, i mean this gently, as someone who had a grandmother barely escape the Holocaust and lose her parents to it, comparing infidelity to the brutal torture and death of millions of people, it is an offensive word to use. And I am not saying this to make you feel bad for your pain but to encourage you to use a different term.

 

I was traveling and only now had a chance to respond.

 

I apologize. The parallel in my mind was the utter destruction and upheaval that it caused. But I know that word stands for one event only; there was only one Holocaust. It was and always will be something apart that cannot be compared. It was the unthinkable and happened to people living in my lifetime. It stands as a constant reminder that even the most extreme, twisted ideation can mobilize an entire people to believe they are entitled to commit atrocities in the name of hatred. It must be remembered with respect and humility, and I do not want to be responsible for diminishing any aspect of that reality in any way. It should never be forgotten for the sake of all those who were destroyed or touched by it and for the future never to repeat it.

 

I'm going to leave this post alone and address my own issues separately.

[merrmeade]

I do not have another word, but will try to explain it. I had no clue of my husband's multiple infidelities, ranging from emotional inappropriateness to intercourse with family and at least one 'friend' over the course of our 40+-year marriage. My discovery of this over time and his reluctance to share it was one trauma.

 

The other was encountering his and my sister-in-law's denials, rationalizations, entitlement and inability to admit it. Discovering and hearing him admit the unthinkable was happening to me. I'd always thought I would leave if such a thing happened, but instead I was frozen. It ripped into shreds all sense of relationship and reality. I am still trying to piece our history together accurately.

 

I was blind and naive for FORTY years. I cannot forgive it and refuse to pretend it never happened, i.e., be polite and talk nicely with the OPs. I refuse to let anyone diminish or dismiss the facts. My husband is an admitted, f--ked up sex addict and that is enough to deal with. The only reason I am still with him is that he acknowledges it and says he wants to change; he does not want to go back to a life of denial. He also suffers from post-cancer complications that throw him in and out of the hospital.

 

I do not rub his nose in it, and we go weeks and months without talking about it. Probably, like Drifter, I reconciled too soon - before my own issues were addressed.

[HermioneG]

Sounds to me more like you dislike the word but daily live in it by actions. Or you simply have "to forgive" set on some unattainable pedestle. Like people who say "forgive AND forget". Maybe the little things that are easy to forgive should be forgotten. But no one is going to forget being cheated on. Forgive does not mean forget.

 

Please stop telling me, and others, what forgiveness look like.

 

Thanks in advance.

[waterwoman]

For me in the beginning forgiveness was a big fat lie that I told myself to draw a line under it all. I actually told H I forgave him just a few weeks after dday because we we were actually closer than we had been in years and I wanted it to be all OK. H was the one who said that I shouldn't say that. He was right and I had to take it back many many times.

 

I see forgiveness now as being mostly acceptance rather than anything more proactive. The man I am with now, the kind, loving, understanding, appreciative man, is forgiven and loved. That is the man who I am planning the rest of my life with. But when I allow myself to think about the worst times, the worst things that happened, the anger and pain bubble up and the total effing barsteward who screwed me over with witch from hell probably won't ever be forgiven! All I can do is accept that it happened and accept that it hurts and probably always will, and move on. Like being dangerously ill - the memories are dreadful but it passed and I am doing well.

[Snowflower]

I am fairly religious but still can't seem to forgive my H for his betrayal. So, just because someone is "religious" doesn't mean forgiveness comes any easier.

 

I've come close a few times...or will go for a period of time where I think I have forgiven him but then it comes back in full force.

 

I was hardly the poster child for a successful reconciliation but I don't regret at all having done so. I just haven't/can't figure out the forgiveness part. I don't think I have it in me to forgive and I know I am a grudge holder.

 

I don't see anyone trying to force their idea of forgiveness on anyone...I just see a lot of people here struggling in their own way with the concept.

[katielee]

I think sometimes a forgetting is more important than forgiving. I think to reconcile the BS needs to forget a little bit, like have a very full life so that it is something that was in the past that you no longer think about too much. If I think about the things he said, did and lied about I can go down the rabbit hole pretty quickly. But if we have positive memories and things to look forward to and keep our lives very full, I don't.

 

The thing of it is, I have a lot of triggers where we live.

[Sub]

I think sometimes a forgetting is more important than forgiving. I think to reconcile the BS needs to forget a little bit, like have a very full life so that it is something that was in the past that you no longer think about too much. If I think about the things he said, did and lied about I can go down the rabbit hole pretty quickly. But if we have positive memories and things to look forward to and keep our lives very full, I don't.

 

I'm not sure "forget" is the right word, but you're right on in regards to positive memories and things to look forward to. I've found that the new memories we've made since D-Day haven't erased what I know of the A, but definitely moved ahead of them in the recall line.

[HereNorThere]

I guess I don't understand how someone could stay married to someone who did something so heinous that it's considered unforgivable. I understand that love is a powerful thing, but so is the human drive for self-preservation. I guess we all have limits and boundaries and the differ from person to person; staying with someone who has done something considered unforgivable is really out what I can comprehend.

[katielee]

I guess I will answer because that heinous behavior lasted 4 months out of 27 years of marriage. We have four children, a family and friends we love, retirement, a future together and he's not cheating now and is remorseful, to a degree. So... throw that all away for 4 months of craziness? I've thought about it. Usually every day, but today I'm staying.

[HereNorThere]

I guess I will answer because that heinous behavior lasted 4 months out of 27 years of marriage. We have four children, a family and friends we love, retirement, a future together and he's not cheating now and is remorseful, to a degree. So... throw that all away for 4 months of craziness? I've thought about it. Usually every day, but today I'm staying.

 

So you cheated and he cheated twice all within four months? Everything was disclosed, admitted, etc. in four months? If it was all over in four months, what are you doing here?

[DKT3]

For me in the beginning forgiveness was a big fat lie that I told myself to draw a line under it all. I actually told H I forgave him just a few weeks after dday because we we were actually closer than we had been in years and I wanted it to be all OK. H was the one who said that I shouldn't say that. He was right and I had to take it back many many times.

 

I see forgiveness now as being mostly acceptance rather than anything more proactive. The man I am with now, the kind, loving, understanding, appreciative man, is forgiven and loved. That is the man who I am planning the rest of my life with. But when I allow myself to think about the worst times, the worst things that happened, the anger and pain bubble up and the total effing barsteward who screwed me over with witch from hell probably won't ever be forgiven! All I can do is accept that it happened and accept that it hurts and probably always will, and move on. Like being dangerously ill - the memories are dreadful but it passed and I am doing well.

 

Thank you for this.

 

The past week or so I've been feeling like maybe it is a mistake trying to reclaim a life together. Most of the time we are great together and its worth fighting for. Then in a instant it feels like its all gone. I know for me its been a chain reaction, one act of what I see as being selfish leads to thinking about it being the behavior that lead to that A, that triggers the dreams which brings it all back.

 

I have been of the mindset that if only I could forgive it will all go away. Now its not logical, but more something to hope for. I guess understanding that there will be moments, be it in three days or three years, I will be overcome with what she has done.

 

On her side she does a lot to help me through these times. Our MC says that we have to set a limit on how much time we spend on the A. Lovin likes to talk about it a lot, I think she like to gauge where I am by doing so. MC say that coming here after a point is like running on a threadmill, working your butt off getting some benefit. Yet to move forward we can't continue to look back or work hard in the same place.

 

Sorry for the slight T/K.

 

Again thank you waterwoman, I needed this right now.

[katielee]

So you cheated and he cheated twice all within four months? Everything was disclosed, admitted, etc. in four months? If it was all over in four months, what are you doing here?

 

no, I cheated, confessed and then 1.5 years later I caught him in two affairs roughly 3-4 months apart. we've been dealing with three affairs between us for 4.5 years now. April 2012 is when I caught him the 2nd time. He blamed me for his actions for a year.

What am I doing here? Really? It takes a long time to recover from trauma. IT takes a long time to recover from having to hire a PI to spy on your husband because he won't tell you the truth about your own life. It takes a long time to recover from seeing him on top of her. It takes a long time to decide to recover when your husband calls a rape (also thrown in there during this time frame) as your second affair. Obviously he was very affected by what I did, as you can see. Trauma and betrayal and the rebuilding of trust takes years to recover from. We are both still in IC.

[HereNorThere]

no, I cheated, confessed and then 1.5 years later I caught him in two affairs roughly 3-4 months apart. we've been dealing with three affairs between us for 4.5 years now. April 2012 is when I caught him the 2nd time. He blamed me for his actions for a year.

What am I doing here? Really? It takes a long time to recover from trauma. IT takes a long time to recover from having to hire a PI to spy on your husband because he won't tell you the truth about your own life. It takes a long time to recover from seeing him on top of her. It takes a long time to decide to recover when your husband calls a rape (also thrown in there during this time frame) as your second affair. Obviously he was very affected by what I did, as you can see. Trauma and betrayal and the rebuilding of trust takes years to recover from. We are both still in IC.

 

My point exactly.

[katielee]

If it was all over in four months, what are you doing here?

 

I'm guessing there are people here working through this where their spouses affair was a ONS and yet they are still working through it.

Your post was condescending to these folks, or, I don't really know what you're talking about.

[HereNorThere]

I'm guessing there are people here working through this where their spouses affair was a ONS and yet they are still working through it.

Your post was condescending to these folks, or, I don't really know what you're talking about.

 

I think you've misinterpreted what I have said. You responded that the reason you stayed with your spouse is because the "bad times" only lasted 4 months out of a 20 year marriage. I was simply stating that these bad times did not last a mere four months, but really affected you for a lifetime hence the reason why are still here.

[katielee]

well, they've certainly affected both of us for a long long time. And continue to.

Things will never be the same.

[DKT3]

My point exactly.

 

I sense some bitterness in your tone. Katielee isn't the woman that cheated on you. We're all here looking to heal a move forward, I think its unfair to question her about why she is, not to mention not helpful to anyone and off topic.

 

Sorry William.

[jm2013]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this a bit this week. Some some of us may not have uttered the words "I forgive you" yet. But aren't our actions speaking louder than words? Isn't taking them back and letting them move back into your life a physical display of forgiveness? So if you've stuck it out and are continuing your marriage, isn't that already a sign of forgiving for what had happened?

[woinlove]

I think you've misinterpreted what I have said. You responded that the reason you stayed with your spouse is because the "bad times" only lasted 4 months out of a 20 year marriage. I was simply stating that these bad times did not last a mere four months, but really affected you for a lifetime hence the reason why are still here.

 

Actually, she said the "heinous behavior" lasted 4 months, not the bad times. Her H is solely responsible for his own heinous behavior, but bad times involves a lot of factors including how the individual processes pain, betrayal, loss.

 

You asked how someone could stay married to someone who they were unable to forgive - a good question, relevant to the topic of this thread, and one that I don't completely understand - and katielee gave a useful answer. It helped me understand a bit better. Perhaps your responses to her answer are an attempt to better understand, but they don't come across that way.

[drifter777]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this a bit this week. Some some of us may not have uttered the words "I forgive you" yet. But aren't our actions speaking louder than words? Isn't taking them back and letting them move back into your life a physical display of forgiveness? So if you've stuck it out and are continuing your marriage, isn't that already a sign of forgiving for what had happened?

Not for me. Taking her back into my life was an act of weakness coupled with a desperate prayer that I would be able to cope with what she did and find forgiveness one day. I do understand this view as its something I've thought about when I'm especially desperate to forgive her as well as myself over all this crap. But I know I'm just grasping at straws. Forgiveness is not just going through the motions.

[katielee]

I think the idea of forgiving ourselves is very important. I've had to forgive myself for my affair. that took years.

But forgiving myself for staying with a man who has done this twice, who sees me in emotional turmoil every time I see either OW but would resent us moving, that has proven to be impossible, so far. There are so many things to weigh.... but personal well being is what we must consider. How does it best suit you... to stay or leave?

[DKT3]

I think the idea of forgiving ourselves is very important. I've had to forgive myself for my affair. that took years.

But forgiving myself for staying with a man who has done this twice, who sees me in emotional turmoil every time I see either OW but would resent us moving, that has proven to be impossible, so far. There are so many things to weigh.... but personal well being is what we must consider. How does it best suit you... to stay or leave?

 

Sometimes actions are more reactions to your own actions. My grandmother told my sister that when we were small kids after my brother and I set all her dolls on fire because she put a peanut butter sandwich in our VCR. Its funny now.

 

It leads to the question I have for you. I guessing your husband was faithful before your affair, so does the fact that you had the A make you feel in some part responsable for creating the a marriage that infidelity was an option? Does that or should that play a role in accepting and/or forgiving him?

 

His 2 affairs don't wipe your 1 away, assuming he was faithful before, it likely lead to an "oh f u c k it, why not" attitude when he was faced with the decision to or not to.

 

I'm honestly wondering, because I come close to cheating as a response to her cheating, I actively searched for a romp or two. I simple couldn't go through with it.