Her [pre-] divorce affair vs my post split ONS and divorce R

[lovinDKT3]

I came back to see if any questions were answered... But none so far...

I have answered these questions of yours over and over again every time you've asked.

[merrmeade]

I'm going to read all the pages to this thread later but, having read the first page discussion about WS rights to full disclosure of an A (ONS?) that occurred following D - ... Just what is all that legal-sounding back-and-forth from actual BSs who have been there and done that? And the former BS himself making it like courtroom evidence to be dissected?! Harrumph.

 

Come on! You're married. You've recommitted, yes, been through whatever but marriage is one thing. One. It's not like there are outside rules. It's whatever she and you NEED. It's full transparency, isn't it?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your point here. I had no affair, I divorced my wife and a year later started another relationship. The rest of this makes no sense to me.

All right, I've read it all now. I had the facts wrong perhaps, but the 1st reaction, upon skimming, was to the overtone: You SOUNDed like you were in and wanted to be in a committed, loving, exclusive relationship. It was to that I reacted and IF that had been the case - Committed. Loving. Exclusive. - then I would still have the same reaction. For trust, support, fulfillment, deepening understanding and growth, well, you share everything.

 

And if you're still deciding - which it certainly sounds like you are - then you need to clarify that with each other. It seems to me that's the hold up. Somebody's still not sure (even though he says he is) and the one card he seems to be holding the closest is the one with the details of the working girl relationship while he and fWS were separated/divorced. So that's cool. That's his prerogative and everything else that Spectre and others seem to be saying. I get it. They 're not technically married. Just living together or dating or something. Or something.

 

Or something may be the problem for someone pregnant. That does tend to leave a bit of insecurity when the partner's waffling still and fBS is pretty much all over the place (can't blame him) with one minute We communicate better now then we ever have. ... soooo happy .... then says We are in a bad place and I'm just not sure we can continue. ... I just don't know, maybe we can't recover maybe its dead, maybe its always been dead and I simply allowed this crap and now my eyes are open ... may finally be the end of us. and then later, "I'm not sure how anyone can question my commitment to Lovin and our relationship." As far as the problems with fWS - don't mean to trivialize at all - in all due respect they sound like married people bickering issues.

 

I mean, can't blame the fBS. You're still a grieving BS, in a way and so sensitive and protective of your hurt. And I really do get the sequence of events. And as a truly suffering BS, I would never, ever belittle your trust issues . I'll just indulge myself one little "I think":

• I think you're still having a hard time with the original A, DkT3.
  
• Remember, both of you, that he let the working girl go for HER sake - and rightly so. But not fair to blame or take credit for it.
  
• It's sort of a different kettle of fish with such a long period of divorce in between. Not sure anybody can tell you there's one right response or another or what the rules are.
  

 

But it worries me that you seem to take all posts so seriously. Seems to me it's kind of like reading religious texts: You can find something to support whatever you want to believe that day. But that's not really guidance. So I think rather than telling you everything "I THINK" about what you ought to do, I'd like to just really champion posts you've gotten from Owl, BetrayedH, Harry Brown and the really sweet one from bigman below. And a big especially to Owl. He's really knocked himself out here and stayed in there, patiently explaining and re-explaining the couples perspective rather than the individual. f that's what you want. Only if that's what you want.

 

Apart from the whole details from your non affair situation, it sounds like routine husband and wife crap with a little pregnancy hormones thrown in for good measure.

 

Someone once told me before I got married that his wife was the one person who made him the happiest and the angriest. I thought it odd, but I can say the same thing. Other folks can annoy me, but my wife can really piss me off. She does the same sh*t that I have been asking her not to do for years. Thing is, I have been doing the same sh*t she asked me not to do, as well. We have both made changes, but that is life with another person. New crap annoys you, old crap annoys you, new old crap annoys you. They keep doing the same crap, etc. She also makes me happy.

 

That is the joy of marriage. Sounds to me like you and lovin' are getting into that groove. Of course, there was the whole cheating thing and the "princess" mentality, but that is part of her deal. She can try to change it, (the princess thing, I accept that the cheating part is gone) but I doubt that she is going to because that is in her psychological DNA. ITs not a bad thing, its just a Lovin' thing. I identify with DKT and I can tell you, guys in who act like we do are also pains in the azz despite our innate awesomeness.

 

Whereas before you were cool with this, now you have had time to get unaccustomed to it. The struggle is getting back used to it, cause its never going to change. Not a bad thing, just an individual thing. There are no perfect people, just people with imperfections that you find peace with. The struggle is real. Keep on keeping on.

I really love this.

Edited August 25, 2014 by merrmeade

[DKT3]

All right, I've read it all now. I had the facts wrong perhaps, but the 1st reaction, upon skimming, was to the overtone: You SOUNDed like you were in and wanted to be in a committed, loving, exclusive relationship. It was to that I reacted and IF that had been the case - Committed. Loving. Exclusive. - then I would still have the same reaction. For trust, support, fulfillment, deepening understanding and growth, well, you share everything.

 

And if you're still deciding - which it certainly sounds like you are - then you need to clarify that with each other. It seems to me that's the hold up. Somebody's still not sure (even though he says he is) and the one card he seems to be holding the closest is the one with the details of the working girl relationship while he and fWS were separated/divorced. So that's cool. That's his prerogative and everything else that Spectre and others seem to be saying. I get it. They 're not technically married. Just living together or dating or something. Or something.

 

Or something may be the problem for someone pregnant. That does tend to leave a bit of insecurity when the partner's waffling still and fBS is pretty much all over the place (can't blame him) with one minute We communicate better now then we ever have. ... soooo happy .... then says We are in a bad place and I'm just not sure we can continue. ... I just don't know, maybe we can't recover maybe its dead, maybe its always been dead and I simply allowed this crap and now my eyes are open ... may finally be the end of us. and then later, "I'm not sure how anyone can question my commitment to Lovin and our relationship." As far as the problems with fWS - don't mean to trivialize at all - in all due respect they sound like married people bickering issues.

 

I mean, can't blame the fBS. You're still a grieving BS, in a way and so sensitive and protective of your hurt. And I really do get the sequence of events. And as a truly suffering BS, I would never, ever belittle your trust issues . I'll just indulge myself one little "I think":

• I think you're still having a hard time with the original A, DkT3.
  
• Remember, both of you, that he let the working girl go for HER sake - and rightly so. But not fair to blame or take credit for it.
  
• It's sort of a different kettle of fish with such a long period of divorce in between. Not sure anybody can tell you there's one right response or another or what the rules are.
  

 

But it worries me that you seem to take all posts so seriously. Seems to me it's kind of like reading religious texts: You can find something to support whatever you want to believe that day. But that's not really guidance. So I think rather than telling you everything "I THINK" about what you ought to do, I'd like to just really champion posts you've gotten from Owl, BetrayedH, Harry Brown and the really sweet one from bigman below. And a big especially to Owl. He's really knocked himself out here and stayed in there, patiently explaining and re-explaining the couples perspective rather than the individual. f that's what you want. Only if that's what you want.

 

 

I really love this.

You not the first person who has questioned my commitment, so having gone back and re-read my past threads I can say I kinda get why. Make no mistake, I'm commited to Lovin and this relationship. Now having said that, its not enough. Me being commited won't make US work as a couple, WE have to both be commited for US to work.

 

Friday a had a odd day at work, I was there until 10pm. Lovin picked me up something to eat and texted me to come out and get it. As soon as I saw her car I felt up. We met eyes iand I couldn't stop smiling all the way to the car. We sat there joked awhile kissed and I went back in. When I got back my co-worker all commented about my changed mood. The female intern then asked me how long we had been together "since we were 17 &16" she said "wow that's special, every girls dream". Funny after all this time and what happened she can still make me feel that good just on sight. No I'm in this 100%. She is my girl.

[aliveagain]

You not the first person who has questioned my commitment, so having gone back and re-read my past threads I can say I kinda get why. Make no mistake, I'm commited to Lovin and this relationship. Now having said that, its not enough. Me being commited won't make US work as a couple, WE have to both be commited for US to work.

 

Friday a had a odd day at work, I was there until 10pm. Lovin picked me up something to eat and texted me to come out and get it. As soon as I saw her car I felt up. We met eyes iand I couldn't stop smiling all the way to the car. We sat there joked awhile kissed and I went back in. When I got back my co-worker all commented about my changed mood. The female intern then asked me how long we had been together "since we were 17 &16" she said "wow that's special, every girls dream". Funny after all this time and what happened she can still make me feel that good just on sight. No I'm in this 100%. She is my girl.

 

This is beautiful, she brings you food because your working late, you seeing her out there in her car at night doing this for you melts your heart seeing her, you belong together. This is why having the proper foundation in your relationship is so important. Every successful relationship I am aware of, parents, aunt's and uncles, close life long friends don't keep secrets from each other. There is no right or wrong in your situation, your both right, you just need to decide if holding on to that little part of your past history is worth the negative it causes her to feel. That's all(I haven't reread your entire post so I hope I haven't missed anything critical).

[lovinDKT3]

You not the first person who has questioned my commitment, so having gone back and re-read my past threads I can say I kinda get why. Make no mistake, I'm commited to Lovin and this relationship. Now having said that, its not enough. Me being commited won't make US work as a couple, WE have to both be commited for US to work.

 

Friday a had a odd day at work, I was there until 10pm. Lovin picked me up something to eat and texted me to come out and get it. As soon as I saw her car I felt up. We met eyes iand I couldn't stop smiling all the way to the car. We sat there joked awhile kissed and I went back in. When I got back my co-worker all commented about my changed mood. The female intern then asked me how long we had been together "since we were 17 &16" she said "wow that's special, every girls dream". Funny after all this time and what happened she can still make me feel that good just on sight. No I'm in this 100%. She is my girl.

 

DKT, ISYTL

 

Aliveagain, I can fully understand that my issues with that relationship are just that, "MY ISSUES". My therapist, my mother and my sister have all told me hanging on to that and letting my insecurities get the best of me will end this relationship if I'm not careful.

[bigman1]

Lovin',

 

" I can fully understand that my issues with that relationship are just that, "MY ISSUES". My therapist, my mother and my sister have all told me hanging on to that and letting my insecurities get the best of me will end this relationship if I'm not careful."

 

THAT is called owning your sh*t right there:D congrats.

 

Now you have to figure out why YOU have these insecurities. That is far different than saying why those issues make you insecure. I think that you should explore your earlier posts about how you differentiated his relationships from your affair. At the risk of sounding all psychobabbly (my word) I think it goes to the heart of how you view relationships, sex, commitment and yourself.

 

Some people view the world from a very "idiosyncratic" perspective. That is, they only focus on themselves and how things relate to them. Since you put your A in the context of physical, then DKT could have the equivalent. Since you never crossed the emotional line, you don't think he should have because you didn't. In addition, that he seemed to elevate someone so quickly to the spot that you thought that only you could occupy, you have to question your value, his value of you, and how secure your position really happens to be.

 

In short, he gets to have what you had (physical) since you did not place as much value on it, but no one gets to have what you valued (emotional), and if someone had it, then they got what you wanted and now... well here you are. You don't see yourself as the sole occupant of his emotional/romantic universe, but in truth of fact, you are the only planet that he wants to live on happily. He's sowing lots of seed with you, I think he wants to stay. good luck. end psychobabble.

[merrmeade]

Lovin',

 

" I can fully understand that my issues with that relationship are just that, "MY ISSUES". My therapist, my mother and my sister have all told me hanging on to that and letting my insecurities get the best of me will end this relationship if I'm not careful."

 

THAT is called owning your sh*t right there:D congrats.

 

Now you have to figure out why YOU have these insecurities. That is far different than saying why those issues make you insecure. I think that you should explore your earlier posts about how you differentiated his relationships from your affair. At the risk of sounding all psychobabbly (my word) I think it goes to the heart of how you view relationships, sex, commitment and yourself.

 

Some people view the world from a very "idiosyncratic" perspective. That is, they only focus on themselves and how things relate to them. Since you put your A in the context of physical, then DKT could have the equivalent. Since you never crossed the emotional line, you don't think he should have because you didn't. In addition, that he seemed to elevate someone so quickly to the spot that you thought that only you could occupy, you have to question your value, his value of you, and how secure your position really happens to be.

 

In short, he gets to have what you had (physical) since you did not place as much value on it, but no one gets to have what you valued (emotional), and if someone had it, then they got what you wanted and now... well here you are. You don't see yourself as the sole occupant of his emotional/romantic universe, but in truth of fact, you are the only planet that he wants to live on happily. He's sowing lots of seed with you, I think he wants to stay. good luck. end psychobabble.

 

Probably but frankly isn't it more visceral than that? If you're wired for monogamy - and that's a for real "if" - the idea of sharing your spouse on any level is fundamentally intolerable to the psyche and there's no right or wrong, statute of limitations or any other qualifying condition to make it tolerable. It's just not supposed to be. Dealing with the notion of a spouse's intimacy shared elsewhere, coupled with his/her insistence on keeping the memory of it from you, well, monogamy cannot thrive, and the relationship cannot thrive; he still shares something with the OP not shared with you. The spouse without the knowledge will go nuts.

[beach]

DKT, ISYTL

 

Aliveagain, I can fully understand that my issues with that relationship are just that, "MY ISSUES". My therapist, my mother and my sister have all told me hanging on to that and letting my insecurities get the best of me will end this relationship if I'm not careful.

 

So why are you holding onto what you know doesn't work for you and this relationship?

 

What will it take to let go of your old behavior?

[DKT3]

Probably but frankly isn't it more visceral than that? If you're wired for monogamy - and that's a for real "if" - the idea of sharing your spouse on any level is fundamentally intolerable to the psyche and there's no right or wrong, statute of limitations or any other qualifying condition to make it tolerable. It's just not supposed to be. Dealing with the notion of a spouse's intimacy shared elsewhere, coupled with his/her insistence on keeping the memory of it from you, well, monogamy cannot thrive, and the relationship cannot thrive; he still shares something with the OP not shared with you. The spouse without the knowledge will go nuts.

 

Its nothing like that, I don't use that relationship as some dirty little secret that I can pull fond memories from in down times. Its simply none of her business what I did after we were divorced. This was in no way any kind of extra marital affair. It was two SINGLE people finding and enjoying a connection.

 

Lovin's issue is she feels (even if she is flakely on the subject) that me and this other woman was involved while we were married. Its not true, but I've done all I can do on my part to assure her its not the case.

 

In the end I did answer many of her questions.

 

Wanted to touch on one more thing. So if you were single and started dating a man, would a details of past lovers be a must to move forward to monogamy? Yes we have a history, but we were single (lovin and I) before we come back together. I was dating several other women yet her interest was only with this one. Before we were divorced but after I moved out a I had a long run of ego boosting (epic fail BTW) ONS that she also holds little interest in. Its clearly this woman where lays her issues. What can I do about that? Will details really help? Or do more damage?

[merrmeade]

Its nothing like that, I don't use that relationship as some dirty little secret that I can pull fond memories from in down times. Its simply none of her business what I did after we were divorced. This was in no way any kind of extra marital affair. It was two SINGLE people finding and enjoying a connection.

I'm sorry if my post conveyed any judgment or disrespect on you or your handling of either relationship. I was speaking in general about full-out commitment for the long haul. I don't imply you should be there at all. It's developing and it's where it is. With the long period of time (7 yrs?) of separation/D with your wife, there was no commitment to her during that time or even expectation of a future with her. Your relationships had nothing to do with her. Absolutely no judgment or condemnation there.

 

I am not sure where you are in this journey, don't really need to know, and say that no one has the right to tell you where you "should" be. But I do say that with the decision to trust and marry or live together exclusively - with all that that entails - then it's normal, good and necessary for the relationship and for both of you to be transparent about everything you are and do - past, present and future. Being transparent is just that - nothing is hidden.

Lovin's issue is she feels (even if she is flakely on the subject) that me and this other woman was involved while we were married. Its not true, but I've done all I can do on my part to assure her its not the case.

Yes, I've been deeply touched by your patience, growth and effort to understand her issues. In that way, you seem way ahead of Lovin' and I hope your understanding and support will help her get there. This is where - if I gave any advice, I'd just say keep up the compassionate reassurance. I've wondered if maybe she's insecure because you didn't make a choice of this woman over that woman. You loved and you left because it wasn't fair to that woman. That's pretty heavy stuff - mature, utterly unselfish, and done out of love actually. You didn't do it because she wasn't as good as lovin'. It had nothing to do with lovin'. You did it because you loved her. And lovin' just has to live with that. So how you help her maybe is you explain it again (and again and again) but you start and end with how much you love HER, lovin' and why - no comparisons - and how much you want to be with her. You may already do this!

 

In the end I did answer many of her questions.

Yes, you did and it seemed like it was out of recognition for her need to know and your wish to make the R work. I find your willingness to take a risk again inspiring.

 

You guys are just in this most remarkable and untried arena of relationship experiences. Broken trust. Separate lives lived. Yet somehow you found your way back to each other. That does not require you, by any stretch of the imagination, to open yourself up instantly if you're not convinced she's up to it. To me, THAT would be the only reason you have a "right," if we must keep using that word, to keep anything from her. Where I get a little confused (not judgmental; just confused) is - what this is you're doing: dating, being "like" married or what. And you know what? Maybe it's just fine for you not to be sure yet because what you're unsure of is whether she can handle your trust and commitment, right? You can be 100% in there with loving her and wanting things to work out. It is your right to still be on the fence a tiny bit. I was also saying that the fact that maybe you have a few more steps to go is probably quite scary to Lovin' - especially since she's pregnant. But what to do?

 

In a previous post, I was trying to say - because it's so untried - that none of us posting probably has any experience with it either! I think you are quite remarkable for trying, trusting and on top of that confiding in all these strangers. I don't see how anyone that's kept up could not be touched by your openness, compassion and willingness to be vulnerable. I was trying to say that your circumstances and relationship history are so unique, none of us can rightly say we know what you should do. I think everyone's trying to be supportive of what it sounds like you want, but part of what I was saying, too, was, please, to weigh the advice you're offered. Maybe consider the poster's bias - like mine! You guys have some very important personal vulnerabilities at stake here, and are we really qualified to advise you? I don't think so. Please protect yourselves and work with qualified therapists. A skilled therapist will be a lot better at helping you clarify for yourselves and for each other where this thing is, where it seems to be heading and will put BOTH of you at the steering wheel.

Wanted to touch on one more thing. So if you were single and started dating a man, would a details of past lovers be a must to move forward to monogamy?

Hell no I wouldn't, but you are not in that situation either, are you? You have a different past with lovin' - a whole married life with her - 24 years or something? - which is why my hat's off to you! I think nobody's written that rulebook yet and you should just take our advice with an enormous grain of salt!

 

And, btw, we're in the Infidelity section here under "Marriage and Life Partnerships." "Dating" is a few forums above us. I wouldn't begin to speak to those issues after so many years of marriage and a marriage with problems to boot. My daughter wanted to share her dating/sexuality issues with me, but I finally begged out of the responsibility. All I can say is I do understand sexual intimacy and emotional vulnerability. They are volatile, make you vulnerable and seem to develop at different stages in any relationship. Expectations on both sides may be different as you move step by step into full trust and commitment in a dating situation - or maybe stop short and move on elsewhere. I have no idea how people control these powerful forces and how much they self-monitor in developing relationships any more. Sounds too hard (though clearly monogamy is not so all fired easy either).

Edited August 27, 2014 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

Most of that was about to be edited out but I had to go somewhere. Instead of taking up more space, would like to offer a brief summary of points -

• No personal criticism intended - just the opposite. I was speaking in general - maybe even preaching to the choir.
  
• lovin' seems jealous and threatened by the relationship you had with 'work girl.' Seems to me all you can do is reassure her of how you feel, answer questions and reassure some more. But not answering questions heightens the insecurity and threat level.
  
• You're sort of in uncharted territory. Not really dating, not really married. Not sure many can advise you responsibly. Hope you've found a skilled therapist that you both respect to advise you.
  

[lovinDKT3]

So why are you holding onto what you know doesn't work for you and this relationship?

Its hard to let go of the idea that she was so good for him. With her I saw that happiness that I stole from him. Because it was hard to watch him fall in love with another woman.

 

 

What will it take to let go of your old behavior?

For so long I was looking to him to make it better for me. I didn't know what I needed so I was just plain needy. I'm working, I know he picked me and its because its what he wants. That knowledge doesn't stop me from doubting. I will do any and everything to make it work.

[lovinDKT3]

Most of that was about to be edited out but I had to go somewhere. Instead of taking up more space, would like to offer a brief summary of points -

• No personal criticism intended - just the opposite. I was speaking in general - maybe even preaching to the choir.
  
• lovin' seems jealous and threatened by the relationship you had with 'work girl.' Seems to me all you can do is reassure her of how you feel, answer questions and reassure some more. But not answering questions heightens the insecurity and threat level.
  
• You're sort of in uncharted territory. Not really dating, not really married. Not sure many can advise you responsibly. Hope you've found a skilled therapist that you both respect to advise you.
  

 

Some of the issue with her was I saw her motivation long before he did. She waited in the wings for her chance. I know my affair started us towards divorce, and not being honest made his decision easy. Yet, I could never shake the feeling that she played a role in it as well. I wanted to know what if any conversations they had during that time.

 

Truth is I was and have been looking for someone else to blame. Its really hard to accept that I DID THIS, to him and our kids.

[merrmeade]

Some of the issue with her was I saw her motivation long before he did. She waited in the wings for her chance. I know my affair started us towards divorce, and not being honest made his decision easy. Yet, I could never shake the feeling that she played a role in it as well. I wanted to know what if any conversations they had during that time.Truth is I was and have been looking for someone else to blame. Its really hard to accept that I DID THIS, to him and our kids.

Her motivation? Waiting in the wings for her chance?

So what if she was attracted to him? I don't really see anything wrong with what her acting on her attraction to him when he was divorced/separated.

 

In my marriage, there were many instances of women being attracted to my H and a life of mistakes with how he dealt with it, which we are working through now. I mean, there was my stupidity and the OWs' lack of boundaries, but the fault lies squarely on my H. We were married. Period. But your H wasn't like that. He really does seem to have this very, very clearly worked out with priorities in all the right places. He is NOT playing mind tricks with himself or anyone else, and that's all you have to worry about, isn't it?

 

I could never shake the feeling that she played a role in it.

This would be a matter of her timing, right? But even if she made the first move, he was already free to notice and reciprocate because of circumstances in your relationship, no? From what he says, it isn't a case of infidelity in marriage. These are muddy waters to me at best. Maybe clarity in those waters would help? i.e., what you need to prove? I hope he keeps answering your questions and reassuring you with understanding.

 

But, hey, seeing you do this helps me a lot. I've obsessed over the OW, been told it's useless, understood why it wasn't rational but still couldn't shake it. What finally did it was understanding WHY she did what she did, how she probably thought about it, helped the most.

 

I was and have been looking for someone else to blame ....

That issue does seem to be a red herring (taking the focus off the real issues) in muddy waters - but you're working on it. I think you're both amazing.

Edited August 27, 2014 by merrmeade

[DKT3]

Her motivation? Waiting in the wings for her chance?

So what if she was attracted to him? I don't really see anything wrong with what her acting on her attraction to him when he was divorced/separated.

 

In my marriage, there were many instances of women being attracted to my H and a life of mistakes with how he dealt with it, which we are working through now. I mean, there was my stupidity and the OWs' lack of boundaries, but the fault lies squarely on my H. We were married. Period. But your H wasn't like that. He really does seem to have this very, very clearly worked out with priorities in all the right places. He is NOT playing mind tricks with himself or anyone else, and that's all you have to worry about, isn't it?

 

I could never shake the feeling that she played a role in it.

This would be a matter of her timing, right? But even if she made the first move, he was already free to notice and reciprocate because of circumstances in your relationship, no? From what he says, it isn't a case of infidelity in marriage. These are muddy waters to me at best. Maybe clarity in those waters would help? i.e., what you need to prove? I hope he keeps answering your questions and reassuring you with understanding.

 

But, hey, seeing you do this helps me a lot. I've obsessed over the OW, been told it's useless, understood why it wasn't rational but still couldn't shake it. What finally did it was understanding WHY she did what she did, how she probably thought about it, helped the most.

 

I was and have been looking for someone else to blame ....

That issue does seem to be a red herring (taking the focus off the real issues) in muddy waters - but you're working on it. I think you're both amazing.

 

In putting myself in Lovin's shoes I get how she could think that. Work girl came into my life shortly before I found out about the A. Shortly after that she started to travel with me and we became fairly close. Lovin never liked her from the first meeting, she felt right away that she was too interested in me and made the comment "oh she has a little crush on you" after the first meeting. We traveled a lot and work girl was there for me as I entered into divorce. A year later we were a couple. Lovin is wrong there was nothing there on my part, but I get how she could think so.

[merrmeade]

In putting myself in Lovin's shoes I get how she could think that. Work girl came into my life shortly before I found out about the A. Shortly after that she started to travel with me and we became fairly close. Lovin never liked her from the first meeting, she felt right away that she was too interested in me and made the comment "oh she has a little crush on you" after the first meeting. We traveled a lot and work girl was there for me as I entered into divorce. A year later we were a couple. Lovin is wrong there was nothing there on my part, but I get how she could think so.

Yes, you addressed that on page 1 of the thread:

We were divorced a year when I started this relationship, ... The ONS did happen while we were married, but she had been served with divorce papers and we were no long "together", I had moved out. According to the definition it was cheating because we were still legally married. Those ONS I have been more open about.

I feel the same as the first time I read that - especially According to the definition it was cheating because we were still legally married. There's no courtroom (or Loveshack) definition needed, is there? Just clear communication for the other person's sake so you guys trust each other - recognizing what the other person needs. I think your hair-splitting of when it was "cheating" and when it was free pass is going to be hard to agree on. The fact is you cared for this person, part of the relationship qualifies as "cheating" and, therefore, digs into lovin's unsafe area. That's what matters now, isn't it? Making her feel safe with you and you with her? You guys are awesome. You're trying so hard. I'm envious but happy for you because you're both working. It's good.