iiiii Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 I can sympathise with not wanting to have children. Some people would go to any length to have a family. But for me, if having kids meant that I likely would not be able to travel anymore, had to give up my career, had to give up a life partner, or could not be financially secure, then I likely would not choose to have a child. No big deal. I can have a enjoyable and fulfilling life without procreating. I think people judge childless women less than they used to do, which can only be a good thing - we're all different, and different things make us happy. 2
Shepp Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 Yes I am sure you are a wonderful father, I can tell how overwhelmed with joy you are from simply reading a few posts by you. I am genuinely happy for you, I like reading about nice sounding folks that love their kids. The centre of my universe though, I am afraid, is not going to be a child. I really hate that notion FOR ME; it would not make ME happy, although thousands of others like yourself love their kids being the centre of their universe. I will have my partner be the centre of my universe; my parents well being, the animal shelter I want to start one day... having good friends I can help out in times of need due to not having children.. Other things can become " my centre" of my universe, it is nothing to do with ME wanting to be the centre of my own universe I mean come on, overseas travel is important to me but that alone would make me miserable if I could not devote myself to a partner, helping other people and opening that animal shelter one day. It is all about WHAT you want to dedicate yourself to.... I am not opting for my thing to be kids.. that is all. I am seeking out other things to totally devote myself to. Look, I knew I wanted to have a family since I was 13, I've always wanted kids, lots of them, i'd like about 5 to be honest (we're planning this, our boys are coming up to 5 months and were planning to have another sometime in the autumn, after the wedding) - theres people out there that give stick over that but I don't care, I'm eco friendly and everything but not enough that I wouldn't have the kids I want - maybe that's selfish? Or maybe because I love being a dad and I want to give my kids every experience I can and I'm not worried about the drain on my time or pocket, maybe that's unselfish? And my girlfriend gets proper annoyed because people think we're too young to of had kids and you'd be surprised how blunt strangers can be about that but on the other end of the scale my gf got pregnant accidently, my name might be on the birth certificate but the boys aren't biologically mine - say she'd got an abortion as some girls do, theres a whole other lot of people who'd say you were wrong and selfish and all the rest of it for doing that! The point is whatever choice you make people will call it selfish/unselfish/responsible/irresponsible - the thing is that you'll never win trying please everyone, that's a losing game - so you just have to make your own choice! You'll never convince everyone on this thead that your choice is right, but the great thing is you don't have to!! You don't have to convince anyone but yourself!! If we were talking about the pros and cons of kids you'd never put me off having them and likewise id never convince you of having them - and that's fine because we're living our own separate lives! (and I can have your spare 2.5 ) I actually think the problem comes in where folk are wishy washy! The people that do it cause their friends are, cause their partner wants or even worse - for the social security payments!! They're the folk that need knocking into shape! Just cause I love kids, doesn't mean I think everyone should go out and have them! Like I say my girlfriends dad is a prime example - workaholic the bread winner, her mum wanted a baby and that was just what people did at their age and you know if her mum hadn't of died maybe they'd of got away with it! I'm sure there's folk in that very situation who get away with it! But they didn't, her mum died, and maybe he would of thought that in that situation he would of stepped up, i dunno, i don't know the guy but the facts were that he didn't, or couldn't, i dunno!! And of course I'd i'm personally pleased they had a kid or i'd of never met my girlfriend but the truth of it is that he shouldn't of! Cause he hurt her so badly! I was there as a 15 year old lad and looking back i talked her out of doing some really really stupid things, and at the time i just saw it like if i didn't who would? But thinking about it now, that was way too heavy for a 15 year old kid to be dealing with, we're engaged with twins and even now she's in regular counselling! I was muddling through at best - what if id screwed up, like kids do? What stunt would she of pulled then? And that is a massive reality of having a kid for your partner! Not losing sleep or missing a holiday! The reality is that once your a parent that kid relies on you for everything!!! Like out baby boys they literally rely on us to feed them, clean them, keep them warm, everything! But the truth is a 13 year old relies on you as a parent way more than you know too, way more than i knew i did at 13! You can have no money, you can be "too old" or "too young", you can beans on toast - and maybe its not ideal but it can be okay, but if there's any doubt, id always say stick to your guns and don't do it! However much i could write a list longer than my arm for all the reasons to have kids!! 2
hotpotato Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 This is pretty funny, given that the greatest threat to humanity in the upcoming years is unlikely to be underpopulation or even natural disasters, but problems wrought by society itself. No better way to hasten that end than to produce more kids with absent/terrible parents... I wouldnt say I agree with the line of thinking, but im sure on some level women are still seen as babymaking objects. Men? Not so much. 1
gaius Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 What does not wanting kids have anything to do with negative experiences with men?!!!! You forget my background is Scandinavian. Probably the only area on the planet that has anything close to parity in terms of childrearing expectations and opportunities for both parents. My family is infinitely pragmatic. My dad had a vasectomy immediately after my sister was born. They wanted two kids. No more. Every woman I know that has sworn off children from a young age had some weird abuse in her background. Beyond what I've seen you talk about. Maybe you're the first I've met that wasn't like that, but combine it with your views on how older men are manipulative and your refusal to date a younger guy because it would be taking advantage, I dunno. I just feel like there's more pieces to the puzzle. A vasectomy is reversible and as far as I know they're still having babies over in Scandinavia. 2
suladas Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 I don't really see what is wrong with that. If people would rather spend their life travelling than settle down and have kids, that's their choice. Since having children is a huge commitment, this is a factor to consider. Nothing is wrong with it. But admit you don't want kids. Don't blame it on money. Own up to your choice. 2
suladas Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 Notice that a man wishing to get a vasectomy has little or no resistance for that choice. At any age. BS BS BS. Most doctors won't do a vasectomy on young guys PERIOD, unless they already have kids. Also you forget the fact that a vasectomy is more reverse able, less risky, and of course sperm can be frozen. It is a lot less never going back then a women getting her tubes tied. 2
RedRobin Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 BS BS BS. Most doctors won't do a vasectomy on young guys PERIOD, unless they already have kids. Also you forget the fact that a vasectomy is more reverse able, less risky, and of course sperm can be frozen. It is a lot less never going back then a women getting her tubes tied. I have two male friends who looked into vasectomies when they were in their late 20's with no kids. Neither had a problem finding someone. One of them went through with it, the other didn't. He is now 40, no kids. Is again looking into it. Zero issues finding someone. Me?? I had two doctors tell me (both female, BTW) that they NEVER would have agreed to tie my tubes. Unsolicited they told me this when I was having my check up with them. Guess what? Last time I went to THEM for a check up... My mom didn't go through menopause until mid 50s. I wasn't about to spend the next 30 years of my life pumping artificial chemicals into my body. It's a viable choice for those who are sure. And my doctor made sure I was SURE... no going back. That was wise of her. Edited: eggs can be frozen too folks.
lollipopspot Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Nothing is wrong with it. But admit you don't want kids. Don't blame it on money. Own up to your choice. I think there are people who make the decision based on finances. True that if they desperately wanted to have children they'd probably have them regardless, but there are people on the fence who realize they don't want to add to the difficulty of being a parent by being a poor one, or who realize that if they had the child they'd just have to stick them in daycare from birth because they need to work, and that doesn't seem acceptable to them. They don't just want to be a parent, they want to be what they consider to be a good parent, and finances can hinder that. In fact I know someone who, if she could afford to stay home with a child, would have a child right now. But she doesn't. She doesn't want to be a parent who sticks the child in daycare full time - and how could she afford it anyway - but her husband doesn't make enough to support them both. They barely have enough money now and they live pretty cheaply. If she had a child they'd make it work, but they aren't circumstances they would otherwise choose - like living with the husband's parents. Edited April 20, 2014 by lollipopspot
RedRobin Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Every woman I know that has sworn off children from a young age had some weird abuse in her background. Beyond what I've seen you talk about. Maybe you're the first I've met that wasn't like that, but combine it with your views on how older men are manipulative and your refusal to date a younger guy because it would be taking advantage, I dunno. I just feel like there's more pieces to the puzzle. A vasectomy is reversible and as far as I know they're still having babies over in Scandinavia. Interesting. Well, I never had any weird abuse in my background. I never swore off having kids at a young age. I swore off having accidental children. That's all. Having ones tubes tied doesn't preclude having kids (adoption) or even having one's own bio kids. In vitro has been around for a long time, and it was when I made my decision too. Both adoption and in vitro insure the decision is well planned out and that adequate finances exist to take care of it. It's the same old BS. Men are allowed to make this choice and women aren't. That's fine. It is a story I've heard for most of my adult life. Mostly from men, believe it or not. But that was probably circumstantial since I've spent most of my adult formative years around mostly men. It also played into their sexist stereotypes about women. Like, don't bother promoting her (or other women) because she's just going to have a few kids and drop out of the workforce anyway. *shrug* Junk like that. Oh, and yes, there ARE reversible tube tying procedures. They can put clips in. The problem is that the risk of ectopic pregnancy is a lot higher that way. Ectopic pregnancies can be life threatening... which is why my doctor made sure there was practically zero chance of that happening. Snipped the tubes, took a chunk out, then cauterized both ends. No way the freeway was growing back together. One last thing... I grew up poor. Only the second person in my family to have a college education that I fought tooth and nail to achieve. Add that to the equation.... That probably had a much greater impact than anything. Lots of men make the same decision in those instances. Especially if they were the ones being asked to give up their careers to make a family happen. Think about it. Edited April 20, 2014 by RedRobin 1
jonsnuh Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 Hate to tell you, but yes it is. As humans (animals), we are programmed to want to reproduce (why do you think we value sex so highly?). In our society, we are programmed to believe that having kids isn't the best idea. Laws are created against fathers that push us away from wanting to do that (topic for another thread). But, biologically, reproduction is the goal. It's all about survival of the fittest and passing on our genes to our offspring. I wouldn't say that our society is against having kids, but rather those who aren't favoured. Laws are written and made to serve the interests of oligarchs, who would rather have kids to continue their legacy. It's definitely survival of the fittest-- those who can't afford to have kids would have no time or resources to take care of their kids because they have to scratch a living for themselves. Consider the one-child policy in China. Rich individuals would afford to have more than one child, simply because they could pay the penalties and the price of having one. It all comes down to how valuable you are by how much you make to society in the hierarchy. Ideally you'd want to disperse your genetic information across offspring to as many individuals as you can. Of course, mixed in with politics it's also about power.
Iguanna Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 In my opinion people (mostly men) who offer a hundred reasons not to have a kid (yet? who knows?) do it cause they are scared of the responsibility. I've seen men whose girlfriend accidentally got pregnant when they weren't expecting it at all and now they are the best fathers. They may not live in wealth and they may deny some toys to their kids, but they adore their kids and they make them live in a healthy and loving environment. Do they prefer that they could provide more to their kids? Of course they do cause this is the nature of the human beings: to always want more than they have. But life is unpredictable. There is a great dialogue in Grey's anatomy, the series, in season 5 I think, where a woman who is considering to have a kid asks another woman who is already a mother when it's the right time to have a kid. It goes like this: Dr. Calliophe "Callie" Torres (Sara Ramirez) and Dr. Arizona Robbins (Jessica Capshaw) were doing all right in their exclusive romantic involvement with one another until they realized they wanted a different future. Callie is wondering if she should keep the relationship going. After all, things could change. And she probably doesn't want to be a mother right now. So she probably doesn't have to make a big deal about the fact that she and Arizona are on different pages when it comes to having and raising kids. While she's thinking about these things, Dr. Miranda Bailey (Chandra Wilson) shows up, and Callie asks her, "When is the best time to have babies?" Bailey quips, "The best time to have kids is never." Now Callie knows that Bailey is a great, loving and supportive mother. So she is obviously confused at Bailey's response. Bailey elaborates: "They cry all the time - nonstop. They never sleep. They are terrible conversationalists and they take everything you've got. All your time, all your focus, all your patience, all your sleep - everything so you've got nothing left for you." Callie's mind is speeding up, spinning like crazy. Bailey continues, "But this morning lil Tuck woke me up by putting his nose, his cold little nose up to mine and he goes, "wake up." He got the "k" sounds in wake. See until today, he'd say "d" instead of "k" - "wade up." Girl, him nailing that "k" sound, the pride I felt, the irrational, unbridled joy - it's as good as any Whipple. But if you're waiting for the perfect time to have kids, you're never going to have kids." 1
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 Sorry but still fail to see how not wanting to raise a family says anything about my character. Overseas travel is not indicative that I am selfish as it doesn't have anything to do with how I treat others and the amount of good do/will do I fail to see logic of every woman NEEDING to have kids. And being selfish if they don't. I fail to see how overseas travel and botox once a year are "living it up". I think they are very common and reasonable things that many women want in 2014. I never indicated that I also want to live the high life. I simply wanted travel and botox when I will otherwise live very simply Many women are like me and they just lack the desire to have a child and instead, they feel that they recourses will be better spent helping others. Sorry but I what I am saying is very simple and I do type see how u can't process it.
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 Most people understand me not wanting to have kids if i am on a low income. Iguanna is the only person I have met whe think there is something wrong with me for not wanting to have cchildren on a low income.
Silly_Girl Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Most people understand me not wanting to have kids if i am on a low income. Iguanna is the only person I have met whe think there is something wrong with me for not wanting to have cchildren on a low income. I understand you not wanting kids. I don't understand why you keep linking it to income. You said it's not about that.
iiiii Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Every woman I know that has sworn off children from a young age had some weird abuse in her background. D Interesting observation but I don't know, I don't think you can necessarily generalise from that sample size. I know several women - including a very close friend - who have never wanted kids, and they don't seem to dislike men or have any other weird skeletons in their closet. Then again what would I know - according to some here I'm a sick, insecure, messed-up gold-digger who is desperate for any male attention, simply because my partner is older than I am. So perhaps I'm not the best judge of who has issues and who doesn't.
Els Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Every woman I know that has sworn off children from a young age had some weird abuse in her background. Beyond what I've seen you talk about. Maybe you're the first I've met that wasn't like that, but combine it with your views on how older men are manipulative and your refusal to date a younger guy because it would be taking advantage, I dunno. I just feel like there's more pieces to the puzzle. A vasectomy is reversible and as far as I know they're still having babies over in Scandinavia. Well, first off, 'women you know' is hardly an unbiased sample, and is easily countered by 'women I know' or 'women he/she knows'. Secondly, why is this a gender thing again?? If a woman who has sworn off children from a young age must necessarily have abuse or 'issues' in her background, surely you could say the same for a man who has sworn off children from a young age. 2
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) I understand you not wanting kids. I don't understand why you keep linking it to income. You said it's not about that. Because I don't hate the idea of kids on a high income. I am totally indifferent to "needing" to have a child. So I hate the IDEA of it, since it would of me of overseas travel and the life that I want. However, if a miracle happens and I actually earn enough money, and my bf does too, and we I can still travel overseas with my child occasionally, I WOULD absolutely have his child, as I can see us being very happy as parents too. I am not desperate to have children, women that are have them and make it work on low incomes. I may not be desperate to have a child, but given how my bf feels, in my late 30's if I have been working a few years and have some savings and he has a decent enough job, I would agree to have a child. I would definitely embrace it ONCE it happened, I just don't have that desperate desire to have children in life, as something I HAVE to do in life. Do you follow me? Not ALL Mothers were "desperate" to have kids. However, it is a nice thought, the idea of having a baby with a man I love very much. I just don't want it ENOUGH to have it on a low income...... Because I am indifferent about kids, having them on a LOW income and therefore going without everything I want (which I would have to do on a low income), is VERY unappealing and I HATE that idea. I am very loving and kind, and I would absolutely make a devoted mother. I just don't WANT kids against all odds, on a low income. I know many women like me who would like to have children but they don't have that innate desire enough to have kids on a low income. Some people make great parents yet lack the desperate desire to have a child, at all costs. MY OWN PARENTS would NOT have had me on a low income, yet they tuned out to be VERY loving and wonderful parents. My parents loved the idea of me but they were not DESPERATE to "have a baby" to the point of doing it in a very poor financial position. Edited April 21, 2014 by Leigh 87
Art_Critic Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 As if it only takes money to have kids.. the money is the smallest part of having a child... I always felt like I had something to give a child.. to pass on.. I have a lot of life inside me that I've lived and gained knowledge from living and I'm going to be passing on my 'Normal Knowledge' to my child... I also have tons of love to give... having a kid is a pretty big deal in my life.. a whole lot bigger than my 401-k and retirement 2
Silly_Girl Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Do you follow me? No Leigh, I absolutely do not follow you. Your thread states that you want: To financially support your ageing parents Rescue thousands of animals Give away thousands every year for good causes like cancer treatments for children Enjoy overseas travel for pleasure Yet you claim you can't afford to have children. It doesn't make any sense, my dear. 2
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 No Leigh, I absolutely do not follow you. Your thread states that you want: To financially support your ageing parents Rescue thousands of animals Give away thousands every year for good causes like cancer treatments for children Enjoy overseas travel for pleasure Yet you claim you can't afford to have children. It doesn't make any sense, my dear. I want to do all those things. Why wouldn't the average person be able to get around to doing all these things? What makes you think I cannot travel overseas occasionally, HELP support my parents, and when older, freely give away money to people in need? On an average wage it is possible to travel overseas occasionally, While also looking after my parents as best as I can And when older, and on a senior wage (my industry is growing rapidly and senor workers get 80 plus K) THEN I will start to freely give money away. How does this NOT make sense? I am ensuring that I am in a growing industry that I will at LEAST get an average wage for, in ALL Likeliness. NOT SURE why you feel a short, overseas trip every 2 - 3 years is TOO EXPENSIVE. MOST people can afford to travel overseas IF it is a priority. Most people would rather have kids and do other things though.
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 I mean: I cannot afford to have children AND do all those things. I can afford to do all those things. On an average wage. It is an either OR situation. If he won lotto I would enjoy being a mum, I know I would love a child once I had it. I just don't have that desperation to HAVE to pick that route in life.
Silly_Girl Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Leigh - why are you getting your knickers in a twist about this?! You have no clue how much assistance your parents may/may not need. You don't know what sort of a job you might get, or how long it could take you, or what your salary may be. You don't know whether you or your then-partner might have to travel/relocate for job opportunities - or just because you feel like it Have you researched how much it costs to run a rescue centre for animals or thought seriously about how you'd fund it? Do you know how little in $$$$ it can cost to have children - IF you were even a person who wanted to be a parent at some point? Lots of things could change at any point. You made it clear earlier it was NOT about the money so why not just keep an open mind and see what life brings? 2
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 If it costs little to have a child, then in my late 30's of course I would have one, as I am truly in love with my bf and would bevery happy to give him a child, I know I would love the child as much as a mother who was desperate to have kids. I just don't trust my current predicament; completing college at an older age means I will have no savings and my financial trajectory is very uncertain. Although I am going into a field that claims is radically expanding and the salary has always been above average, if that is anything to go by. My boyfriend also hates the idea of having kids on a low income so he realises he may have to go without children if he also wants to avoid kids on a low income. Plus by my late 30's he will be early 40's and I REFUSE point black to have a child at age 36 or younger. I am 27. I will just be too broke and have to seriously struggle for a child before my late 30s. I don't want to count on getting a good salary and even getting a professional proper job out of college for a good year or two after I graduate, although many social work grads DO get the work within a year if they actually try hard. It is all good, my bf knows how I feel, he knows kids are out of the question if I am not doing well financially and neither is he.
Shepp Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 If it costs little to have a child, then in my late 30's of course I would have one, as I am truly in love with my bf and would bevery happy to give him a child, I know I would love the child as much as a mother who was desperate to have kids. Leigh, I don't mean to be negative and I don't, REALLY don't, mean to put anyone off having kids cause I think it's the best thing ever!! Just if that time comes seriously seriously think through the bolder, throw the money thing out the window cause it doesn't matter, you said earlier there were other things you cared about, that you didn't want to make a child the center of your universe!! But that's what being a parent is a lot of the time!! You could like foster or something - it's much more short term, but you bf gets to do some parenting!
Author Leigh 87 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 I would make a child the centre of my universe. I just wouldn't have one to begin with if I was on a low income. I would have travelled more and lived a little first, in the case that I did lose a job, get an illness or lose my money for any reason. I want to make sure I am 100% prepared before considering having a child. Right now I am deed against the idea for obvious reasons, I am an OLD college student with no financial support to offer a child. 2
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