Why do men want to be married?

[xxoo]

If any product had the failure rate that marriage did most sane people would not go near it. Nobody would buy a car or a tv that broke down as much as marriage did.

 

 

Bad analogy. No one expects a tv or car to be dependable after 10 years. We expect to replace them.

[carhill]

Bad analogy. No one expects a tv or car to be dependable after 10 years. We expect to replace them.

Your post brings up a good point, perhaps already covered, but worth expanding upon. Men generally like routine; it's commonly stated that men rarely change and often resist women's efforts to change them. They like 'the usual' at the local coffee shop, go to the same golf course on Sunday, have the same 'watering holes' with their male friends, etc, etc.

 

This also extends to their intimate relationships. They like someone dependable. Someone they can count on without constantly stressing over it. Many used to believe, and some still do, that marriage, that 'contract' of dependability, would give them such.

 

I remember how my dad, who was the breadwinner in the family, 'counted on' my mom to have dinner on the table when he got home and the newspaper sitting by his chair. After the stresses of the workplace, her dependability gave him confidence that he could unwind when he got home, have a meal and relax.

 

Those days, largely, are over, but men, psychologically, still have remnants of the desire for sameness and dependability lurking somewhere in that brain of theirs, hence still seek it out.

[xxoo]

I value dependability in marriage, too. Life is challenging enough. I think of our marriage as a safe, warm port in the storm.

 

Excitement in the bedroom is fine, though

 

I often think that people these days need more real life challenges, so they appreciate a good relationship. Gratitude is powerful.

Edited December 14, 2013 by xxoo

[Woggle]

Bad analogy. No one expects a tv or car to be dependable after 10 years. We expect to replace them.

 

True but if people expect marriages to last it is clear many are not living up to expectations. Also many people love older cars and in many cases like them more than new models.

[sunshinegirl]

And the argument that only unhappy people with problems are on the internet...or in mass here on this forums (another general argument people claim to make LS seem like a bunch of crazies and special needs children so they can get their own superiority complex going) is short-sighted and an argument I don't buy either in the slightest...after all what would you be doing here then? (save the general explanations, I'm sure I've heard them already) what are these other people here that are oh so happily married and fulfilled hanging out with all these manic-depressive and struggling unfortunate souls not experiencing the sanctity and love in their own marriages? are you some kind of masochist? are you not entertained?

 

You think I buy that shet? you think I take everything at face value like some child watching a disney movie? or just because someone writes a "heart-warming" story about their own lives/marriages...I didn't just roll into town last week, and I definitely know the kind of things that people tell themselves, I know well enough that everyone has issues in their marriages and relationships, whether they admit them or not.

 

You can bed of roses your relationship all day long, that's all you need for the believers, but the critics and even for the sake of argument or discussion of anyone even being objective and undecided, you need to make a little more weighty comments filled with actual substance and transparency, an actual reflection of the reality wouldn't hurt!...to get much more than an eye-bat.

 

To comment on this, I originally came to LS some years ago in the aftermath of a very tough breakup. A few years passed, I had another bad breakup, but then in 2009 I met the man I ended up marrying in 2010. I would definitely consider myself happily married, though let's be clear that happily married doesn't mean there aren't tough days or no conflict.

 

The main reason I stick around LS is that I remember how much it encouraged me to hear stories of people who had found fulfilling relationships, who had made it through dark periods of their lives. It gave me hope. Now I have a chance to "pay it forward" by doing the same for others who are having a hard time.

[dj572]

I wish I never got married. Unfortunately I thought that marriage was what I wanted. I never wanted kids still don't. She left me but I am grateful now. Looking back I see I was not much more than a trained dog to her. I hear married women say that they have their husbands "trained" all the time. The men seem like whipped dogs to me. I should have never gotten married and I never will again. I am older and wiser now. I don't recommend marriage to anybody but some people make it work.

[SJC2008]

If any product had the failure rate that marriage did most sane people would not go near it. Nobody would buy a car or a tv that broke down as much as marriage did.

 

Yeah and if you hit 35 without being married or having a divorce under your belt people start to wonder. Some effed up world we live in.

[M30USA]

Yeah and if you hit 35 without being married or having a divorce under your belt people start to wonder. Some effed up world we live in.

 

 

"And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever." (1 John 2:17)

[Ninjainpajamas]

This is true whether you marry or not. Do you think the lot of children would improve if more were born out of wedlock?

 

My opinion doesn't incorporate an expectation within marriage itself that automatically attributes certain favorable qualities within people or the structure by default, like it does for many others which is often why many people marry or has an impact on the decision in the first place.

 

I don't believe people gain super powers or an increased chance of this or that by being married...therefore the consideration of whether parents would be more effective married or not is mostly irrelevant. It would be like saying two gay men or women raising a child in a state that doesn't allow them to be married is therefore by default more likely to be less effective parents.

 

Ideally both parents would be involved in the child's life regardless for the sake of the family unit...but it's debatable whether they'd be more effective together or separately. One partner may greatly suffer or struggle greatly with emotionally and psychological issues that impact the child in a negative way...affecting their self-esteem, self-worth and overall impression and outlook of their romantic lives in the future...sometimes a parent can have a much greater positive affect on a child's life by not being in it and exposing their self-destructive reality to the child.

 

I think in short you have to take into consideration the quality of the relationship, partners may just be incompatible and live happier and more fulfilling lives rather than forcing the family unit by living together...which kids are intuitive and can feel and sense qualities in the relationships that parents often take for granted in assuming their children are not old enough to understand therefore might not take anything negative from that...which just means that child interprets what they see in their own eyes and then may add that quality to their own romantic relationships based on that perception.

 

This is one major reason I am opposed to the institution of marriage...it often does more harm than good to the others who have no choice or say so, as a child if your parent is unstable, crazy, self-destructive, or using them for emotional punching bags...they are basically screwed and can only hope to be saved from someone within the family more stable and wise.

 

I've seen far too many children suffer and pay the price for their parents behavior and decisions. Not that this is exclusive to marriage, but it's often married relationships that I see prolong the suffering and extend it way beyond it's expiration date because of "the work" marriage takes. As well as the additional incentive, obligation, probably guilt and consequences they may face in getting a divorce due to the system, financial, split of assets...whereas in a relationship it would be easier to exit that relationship without any red tape.

 

It is amazing the perception one can accomplish by not just thinking of themselves.

 

I am honored to have met you. I had no idea people who were so full of it actually existed.

 

If you do not believe in marriage don't get married. If someone else does, or if they profess that their marriage is happy, it's pretty arrogant of you to assume they are lying and that you know better than they do about their own lives.

 

Thank you thank you *bows* no applause, just throw money.

 

The situation is this, I don't know these people and anything in particular about their personal lives...however I do know the realities of marriage by plenty of observation and conversation with married people, so take it as a guilty until proven innocent kind of thing instead of a personal attack...after all how personal could it be without specifics? I also don't believe something just because someone says it, I know far better than that...I also know the common rhetoric and tend to have a good instinct about things...but alas I am human.

 

Yeah and if you hit 35 without being married or having a divorce under your belt people start to wonder. Some effed up world we live in.

 

The sad thing is you can screw up marriage as many times as you feel like and nobody gives a damn...that's A-OK in everyone else's book...at least you're not afraid of commitment! right? Of course they're not just out of their minds and insanely dependent or riddled with major personal issues, why would you think such a thing?

 

Because *soft gentle therapeutic voice* "You don't share the same values and commitments of this sacred, sacred all wonderful and miraculous creation of man that was totally not created by society for economic purposes in the first place, but for "truuuuuue looooove"! "

 

Religion, government, society always put "true love" first since the beginning! and it will help you work through all of your problems unless it doesn't then you just get divorced and married again...

 

The true story goes...

 

A little fairy with a pop belly and flappy wings came out of the clouds over the commotion of feint voices in the distant earth saying things like "why won't he stay", "how do I get him to commit?", "Am I not pretty/attractive enough?", "I just want a man who will love me for his entire life and beyond, is that too much to ask?", "How do I get the love my mother/father never gave me?"..

 

With his arrow ready and pulled back tight...ready to bond two souls forever to grant the wishes of the distant voices, he happened to see a couple...a typical man hoping to charm a woman into bed professing his love forever as he embraced and kissed her passionately in his arms...

 

(amended later to man on man/woman on woman but this is before that time, stick to the damn story people, this is romantic!)

 

With their naked bodies pressed together tightly, he released his arrow piercing the mans heart from behind and through to the woman...the man looked into his beloved eyes before slumping over dead and had essentially fallen "in love"...the woman having one lung pierced had her "breathe taken away", but she was thrilled because she was forever bonded and would never be alone...all those days of obsessing over men are finally over, the sacred primal duty of finding a man that stays and would complete her life forever has come to a close...she placed a ring upon her slain man's finger as well as her own, who had served his purpose in life but must also in death, she must bind him for an eternity...her insatiable desire for endless commitment and support knowing no limits.

 

From that day hence forth, every man who kisses a woman passionately and has fallen in love to the extent in which it takes her breathe away...and/or makes a good enough income to pay for her dreams and children...must hereby commit himself to an eternal commitment through life and death, which includes taking out the trash and other manly things..to telling her that she looks skinny in that outfit even though you really want to tell her to lose a few pounds and other things that make her feel better of herself regardless of how round she gets, to bringing home the paycheck and submitting it as an offering to appease your wife, all knowing and forever wise, in which you only survive due to her good graces and guidance.

 

The end..

Edited December 16, 2013 by Ninjainpajamas

[nescafe1982]

Religion, government, society always put "true love" first since the beginning!

 

I TL: DR'ed the rest of that clap-trap... but as an historian in the room, I'll go ahead and note that the notion of romantic marriage is a relatively new one, created in the twentieth century no less.

 

As for the topic, if people want to get married, why get so emotionally invested in hating on them (especially the women, who you seem to single out in that rant)? And if society judges people who choose not to get married (sure, they do, although again I think women get more of this negative attention than men do), why not just say "haters gonna hate" and leave it at that? Why literally invest this much energy into it?

[Ninjainpajamas]

I TL: DR'ed the rest of that clap-trap... but as an historian in the room, I'll go ahead and note that the notion of romantic marriage is a relatively new one, created in the twentieth century no less.

 

As for the topic, if people want to get married, why get so emotionally invested in hating on them (especially the women, who you seem to single out in that rant)? And if society judges people who choose not to get married (sure, they do, although again I think women get more of this negative attention than men do), why not just say "haters gonna hate" and leave it at that? Why literally invest this much energy into it?

 

That was sarcasm btw.

 

I go back and forth with which gender I'm focusing on, mainly with marriage because in this argument because I know many are willingly eager and motivated to go into it blindly because of those expectations...and this is not a huge energy investment for me...I type quickly and don't edit my posts often unless there's a very noticeable mistake.

 

I don't think I'm hating, more like questioning things that should asked, the current state of marriage as an institution and even how it is necessary going forward into the future...I think we need more realistic and less idealistic practical and compatible relationships that have flexibility and sensibility to them...essentially more alternatives, more information at the least...I think with the divorce rate so high and so many unhappily married couples out there I'm not sure why society would want to promote the institution when there is clearly a undeniable problem...nothing else can go on with that kind of failure rate and not get noticed, except for marriage has this no fault, never gets bad enough to look at type of exception to the rule...although it affects society as a whole, that ignorance and misinformation of what is actually important and relevant in relationships. rather than a title...rather than this grand commitment and idealistic unrealistic magical thing that so many fall into expecting it to change, secure or add value to.....just because.

 

I don't understand how you could see a problem with what I'm saying personally...in many if not most cases, it's at least partly true. There are a lot of issues with marriage, it's surprising to me that the ones who seek it the most aren't asking the questions.

 

What do we need, 80 percent divorce rate by the time people start talking about it? You don't think anyone cares about marriage, whether they choose it or not? it's your face regardless...it's not like you can't notice. The majority of men and women, will have to cross that bridge in their relationships...it's the norm, so who doesn't it concern?

[Woggle]

Marriage works when you have two people built for marriage. The vast majority of people today are not built for marriage.

[Under The Radar]

Marriage works when you have two people built for marriage. The vast majority of people today are not built for marriage.

 

 

Could you please elaborate?

[Ninjainpajamas]

Marriage works when you have two people built for marriage. The vast majority of people today are not built for marriage.

 

And when did people suddenly start becoming "built" differently?

 

Maybe we're actually just starting to become independent with who we are instead of what we're supposed to be...not just freedom from inside of a bubble, but from outside of it as well, from the chains and shackles determined in advance by our forefathers before we even had a decision to make our own judgment.

 

I doubt anyone was born, or much less built for marriage out of the womb.

[xxoo]

It is amazing the perception one can accomplish by not just thinking of themselves.

 

Yes, it is. And it also explains the very best reasons people want to get married.

 

Our society has become increasingly self-absorbed, and while fairy tale romance and princess weddings are a sign of that, marriage is the opposite. It is mutual commitment and service to another, for the greater good of the couple. Those who are "built" for marriage are those whose ideals align with the latter, instead of the former.

[Woggle]

Yes, it is. And it also explains the very best reasons people want to get married.

 

Our society has become increasingly self-absorbed, and while fairy tale romance and princess weddings are a sign of that, marriage is the opposite. It is mutual commitment and service to another, for the greater good of the couple. Those who are "built" for marriage are those whose ideals align with the latter, instead of the former.

 

I agree but when so many people are self absorbed these days can you blame those that aren't for wondering if marriage is even worth it?

[Ninjainpajamas]

Yes, it is. And it also explains the very best reasons people want to get married.

 

Our society has become increasingly self-absorbed, and while fairy tale romance and princess weddings are a sign of that, marriage is the opposite. It is mutual commitment and service to another, for the greater good of the couple. Those who are "built" for marriage are those whose ideals align with the latter, instead of the former.

 

Another perspective representative of the "higher moral ground" those who marry and those who wish to marry believe they posses.

 

You're no less self-absorbed than anyone else, you make decisions for the same reasons as anyone else...you married out of your own needs and desires, for your own fulfillment and goals, you made the choices in your life...not for anyone else, including having your children...they didn't send you a postcard asking to be born and if you would be so kind and honorable as to birth them then raise them until adulthood in a selfless and heroic endeavor, you did what was desired by you and you took responsibility for it less it becomes another persons problems...societies or someone else.

 

You're not doing me any favors, or society by being married or not...you believe you are less self-absorbed because you've created your own bubble? how is that not the pinnacle of self-absorption? self-fulfilling unto yourselves and created for none other than yourselves...you perceive the choices you make as a married couple somehow more righteous than any single person, but what favors did you do me or anyone else? what good did you contribute to the world and show selfless acts? did you volunteer your services? did you save a few starving children from Africa?

 

Hell...even in your income tax as an American single guy, with no kids and not married you get raped in the butt hole for it if you make above a certain amount of income...it's married couples with children that get the tax breaks and benefits, so who's the selfless ones there? because you decided to live a separate path...would you like to pay for my lifestyle choices? didn't think so.

 

And yet single people still help, and contribute to the world in plenty of selfless ways only to be labeled self-absorbed?

 

It's YOUR mutual commitment and service collectively/together to fulfill the needs of desires for yourselves not anyone else, and makes you no better than that of an individual....but you mask it in this higher power, this higher valued moral ground BS that is perpetuated by all the idealistic and biased opinions who want to believe any monkey crap they throw against the wall...no matter how little substance there actually is beyond the surface of feel-good motivational commentary, it's like diarrhea at times and miraculously it always manages to stick with a select group of people.

Edited December 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[xxoo]

Another perspective representative of the "higher moral ground" those who marry and those who wish to marry believe they posses.

 

You're no less self-absorbed than anyone else, you make decisions for the same reasons as anyone else...you married out of your own needs and desires, for your own fulfillment and goals, you made the choices in your life...not for anyone else, including having your children...they didn't send you a postcard asking to be born and if you would be so kind and honorable as to birth them then raise them until adulthood in a selfless and heroic endeavor, you did what was desired by you and you took responsibility for it less it becomes another persons problems...societies or someone else.

 

You're not doing me any favors, or society by being married or not...you believe you are less self-absorbed because you've created your own bubble? how is that not the pinnacle of self-absorption? self-fulfilling unto yourselves and created for none other than yourselves...you perceive the choices you make as a married couple somehow more righteous than any single person, but what favors did you do me or anyone else? what good did you contribute to the world and show selfless acts? did you volunteer your services? did you save a few starving children from Africa?

 

Hell...even in your income tax as an American single guy, with no kids and not married you get raped in the butt hole for it if you make above a certain amount of income...it's married couples with children that get the tax breaks and benefits, so who's the selfless ones there? because you decided to live a separate path...would you like to pay for my lifestyle choices? didn't think so.

 

And yet single people still help, and contribute to the world in plenty of selfless ways only to be labeled self-absorbed?

 

It's YOUR mutual commitment and service collectively/together to fulfill the needs of desires for yourselves not anyone else, and makes you no better than that of an individual....but you mask it in this higher power, this higher valued moral ground BS that is perpetuated by all the idealistic and biased opinions who want to believe any monkey crap they throw against the wall...no matter how little substance there actually is beyond the surface of feel-good motivational commentary, it's like diarrhea at times and miraculously it always manages to stick with a select group of people.

 

I do think I am less self-absorbed than most people, but I don't think that unmarried people are, as a group, more self absorbed. That's your projection, and not my belief. I believe married and unmarried people can be very self absorbed, or less self-absorbed. The very self absorbed people will struggle more with marriage, while the less self-absorbed will be more "built" for it. Plenty of unmarried people fall into the less self-absorbed category. As society becomes more self absorbed on the whole, fewer people may be "built" for marriage.

 

I'm not even making a value judgment about whether it is good or bad to be self absorbed. Just that our society IS getting more self absorbed, and that characteristic is not compatible with marriage.

Edited December 17, 2013 by xxoo

[Nikki Sahagin]

OP, I'm a woman, 24, have no desire for marriage or children. My thoughts may change in my later life.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

Traditionally men married for these reasons:

* Religion

* A safe environment in which to raise children to follow a religion/cultural norms

* To own/possess a woman

* To unite families

 

The traditional purpose of marriage outside of religion, was ownership. The husband owns the wife. In Muslim countries, men and women have arranged marriages and the husband chooses what the wife wears.

 

You seem to focus on the men getting a bad deal in marriage. But many women the world over are forced into marriages with men they do not want to be with, forced to have sex with them, raise children and basically be a slave to the man.

 

Now in the Western world, that is not the case, and I guess it is Western marriage you are focusing on?

 

So why do men in Western countries want to marry?

 

Well, although I am not a man, so my answer is not from the mouth you intend, and although I am in agreement with you, as I would not like to marry (but I view it from a different angle...i.e. I'd get a bad shtick if I married), I think men marry for these reasons:

 

* Religion

* Desire to raise children/have a family

* They value relationships in such a way

* To 'claim' a woman - lets face it, if a woman wants to be married and a man wants to keep her, that is his way to 'stop' other men from taking her (in an ideal world anyway!)

 

However, although I am cynical about marriage, I believe many marry because they love each other and marriage, though not necessary in this day and age, is an important way for people to cement that.

 

I am pretty sure marriage is not for me, but I am open minded enough to realise that in the future, I may change my mind.

 

I agree that many are not 'made' for marriage. Many do not want a relationship, let alone a marriage.

 

But, whether most people find it or not, make it last or not, most people have a desire to be understood, loved, accepted, cared for...and one of the most fulfilling ways that CAN be found is in a relationship. To escalate that relationship a level higher...people marry.

 

And marriage can be just as boring, stressful, **** and depressing as anything else: a relationship, being single, having loads of sex with loads of partners and catching herpes. It's all relative.

 

But your posts make it clear for all...please NEVER get married. It's the wrong choice for you.

 

My dad married my mum because marriage was something he valued. He grew up in a broken home, and wanted a wife. He met my mum and they married. Is there marriage all roses and angels? I doubt it. Does he wonder if he would be happier unmarried sometimes? I wonder. Do they remain married? Yes. So I infer that for both of them, the benefits outweigh the costs.

 

I'd also add, a HUGE reason marry is because you aren't young, sexy, fit, strong and beautiful forever. We all age. And when you're 86, if life is kind and you both still have each other and your marbles, it's pretty special to look over a lifetime of memories you shared with someone.

 

We live in a world which makes it look like everyone can get loads of sex forever, with no diseases, no pregnancies, no consequences, no hurt. The truth is, unless you're visiting prostitutes, getting with drunk girls at bars or using sex phone lines, that's highly unlikely for most men. For some people, that's heaven, but for others, it's depressing and sad having to pay sex, attention and love. But like I said, for some, that's enough.

 

But women don't remain strutting peacocks forever and men don't remain virile young studs, so you grow up, and realise what else matters...or you run off to Thailand and buy a wife or something. To each their own.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Nikki Sahagin

[waterwoman]

I have been married for 21 years. We lived together for 6 years before that. 16 years ago we had our first child, 14 years ago our second and 10 years ago our third. I can categorically state that the thing that increased the treadmill like quality of our lives (above and beyond the grind of daily work and chores that fall to everyone married/cohabiting/single) was the birth of our children. Because children, their needs and wants, are relentless.

 

I love my kids more than anything else and they have enriched my life in way that I can't explain, but there is no doubt they have also made my life harder and repetitive and limited in other ways.

 

I think what you are talking about isn't marriage per se, it's parenthood. And I am guessing that single-parenthood is going to be harder with regard to the exhausting treadmill routine than parenting as a couple. So unless you advocate no-one every having any kids I honestly don't see how you can change things. Of course as a man you could simply impregnate women and then eff off.... which might be easier on you but not exactly a responsible course of action.

[strongnrelaxed]

I Think an important part of the equation that is overlooked is a person's level of cognitive development. If my vote counted, I would not let anyone get married until they are 25 at the very youngest.

 

The fact that so many millions of people are perfectly okay with 18 year old children making decisions that will impact them, their families, and their children for the rest of their lives seems ludicrous as I look back on things at 50.

 

Societal and family expectations also play a big part, as others have pointed out - but this involves very different implications when considering the choices of an 18 year old vs a 28 year old. A world of difference.

 

The solution is very unappealing to most people, but we need different rules for different people. We are okay with people not drinking until 21, but okay with them having children and dying in war?

 

This is sick and it needs to end.

[waterwoman]

I Think an important part of the equation that is overlooked is a person's level of cognitive development. If my vote counted, I would not let anyone get married until they are 25 at the very youngest.

 

The fact that so many millions of people are perfectly okay with 18 year old children making decisions that will impact them, their families, and their children for the rest of their lives seems ludicrous as I look back on things at 50.

 

Societal and family expectations also play a big part, as others have pointed out - but this involves very different implications when considering the choices of an 18 year old vs a 28 year old. A world of difference.

 

The solution is very unappealing to most people, but we need different rules for different people. We are okay with people not drinking until 21, but okay with them having children and dying in war?

 

This is sick and it needs to end.

 

I totally agree! Marriage is for grown-ups. As is parenthood.

[kiss_andmakeup]

I didn't read the whole thread. But I have to chime in because I wish the OP could talk to my fiancé. He would be able to offer some great insight.

 

If you look through my thread history, my fiancé once felt exactly the way you do. We even broke up over it, his choice. I moved on with my life and assumed it was over forever. Over the course of the subsequent year, the change that's taken place in him is pretty incredible. I'm not mentioning this because I think you, OP, might "change"...only because to hear from someone who previously had the same ideals as you, but now is getting married, might help to give you some genuine insight.

 

I questioned him multiple times during our reconciliatory phase about why he decided he wanted this when he had been so vehemently opposed to it before. And before you say something about him just wanting the sexual side of a relationship back, I'd consider that my fiancé is a handsome, tall, wealthy, successful, funny, extremely charismatic guy. He'd have zero problem finding a new chick to have a casual relationship with every few months.

 

His explanation was always that, in addition to being in love and being incredibly compatible, he felt that being with me makes him a better person. I'm not going to go too deeply in to this, because I have a feeling you've already stopped reading since I'm a woman and my take on things can't possibly be accurate, and surely he trash-talks me behind my back when he's out with his friends.

 

Anyways, I don't even know why I'm chipping in here because I think the obvious solution is for you to avoid marriage, as I'm sure you plan on doing, and to leave those who are happy to be happy. As many previous posters have mentioned, we have the virtue of choice in this life. I'm not sure why you're so concerned with others justifying theirs to you.

[Got it]

I have been married for 21 years. We lived together for 6 years before that. 16 years ago we had our first child, 14 years ago our second and 10 years ago our third. I can categorically state that the thing that increased the treadmill like quality of our lives (above and beyond the grind of daily work and chores that fall to everyone married/cohabiting/single) was the birth of our children. Because children, their needs and wants, are relentless.

 

I love my kids more than anything else and they have enriched my life in way that I can't explain, but there is no doubt they have also made my life harder and repetitive and limited in other ways.

 

I think what you are talking about isn't marriage per se, it's parenthood. And I am guessing that single-parenthood is going to be harder with regard to the exhausting treadmill routine than parenting as a couple. So unless you advocate no-one every having any kids I honestly don't see how you can change things. Of course as a man you could simply impregnate women and then eff off.... which might be easier on you but not exactly a responsible course of action.

 

I think this is an excellent point and really more to the crux of the issue. If one is married, without kids, it doesn't tend to be so entangled with issues. You may have shared debt and mortgage but statistically they tend to have higher incomes.

 

I have written before we do far little training on what healthy relationships look like and unfortunately model what we are shown which is usually not ideal. I laugh at the idea that things were so much better decades ago when divorce rates were greatly tied to the stigma of divorce and women's rights. If things were as open back then and women had the financial freedom/capability they do now, you would have seen much higher divorce rates. I disagree with the notion that there were far more healthy marriages in decades prior than their are now as the generations now are based on the examples of generations prior. The social construct is now very different.

 

I was born to two baby boomer parents and some would argue a "successful" marriage as it transcended 20 years. It was a miserable existence with two unhappy people who were "there for the kids" and we definitely felt it. If that is what we are touting is a good thing then give me divorce and singlehood any day.

[Ninjainpajamas]

I didn't read the whole thread. But I have to chime in because I wish the OP could talk to my fiancé. He would be able to offer some great insight.

 

Not to come off aggressive towards you however..

 

I'm not a simpleton who just believes in a few good tales or enamored influxes of expression or idealistic and romanticized views that simplify the whole entire process...you've got to have real answers to tough questions that aren't just simply explained in three words or a redundancy of what was already said in so many shapes and forms.

 

Love is not a weight-loss diet plan or trying to kick the habit of smoking, there's no patches or 12 step programs or Weight watchers here, complicated issues have complicated in depth emotional answers.

 

However this often leads people to believe that my generalizations have no merit or insight, although I am reading into the behavior, not the words.

 

I am taking into consideration every little thing, the entire picture...from the personality of the person posting, to the way they are describing their relationship to the extent in which they feel so confidently about their partners feelings and thoughts...these are all patterns and indications of how people usually behave in their romantic relationships and I've recognized those patterns due to experience...real life experience.

 

I don't fart this knowledge out of thin air, I've been talking to women about their relationships for years and years, as well as men about their marriages and relationships.

 

It's not just about an opinion or point of view, a lot of people assume the perspective is tarnished or in some way radicalized due to lack of understanding of values, although they themselves typically live in a bubble only considering their own feelings rather than what is going on around them...but I still completely understand where they are coming from, which is why I so strongly oppose...especially understanding the emotional process for men and how they engage in these long-term commitments or marriages.

 

If you look through my thread history, my fiancé once felt exactly the way you do. We even broke up over it, his choice. I moved on with my life and assumed it was over forever. Over the course of the subsequent year, the change that's taken place in him is pretty incredible. I'm not mentioning this because I think you, OP, might "change"...only because to hear from someone who previously had the same ideals as you, but now is getting married, might help to give you some genuine insight.

 

I'll look at it a little later, but it's more complicated than a simple "epiphany" that I see many women believe men have, which coincidentally comes after the breakup magically. In fact women have a hard time understanding the conflict in men period, and I know that whatever he has told you has not been the entire truth.

 

Be aware that although I strongly oppose the institution of marriage for men and even women because of the unrealistic beliefs and ideals it perpetuates, it's still a major part of society and the reality is that most men in the end will concede, it is a multitude of factors in which eventually turn against the man, and even the woman...regardless of how adamantly he may be opposed to it. Peer and societal pressure are great enough, now imagine your significant other on top of it.

 

All it takes it that one person who refuses to be with you without you, that you don't really want to lose...although not necessarily inclined to marry.

 

You might not be crazy but if someone calls you crazy for 20 years of your life then you might start to believe it, you will definitely feel that influence to say the least. It depends on the mental fortitude and will of the individual to resist that external influence, which nobody is that strong forever...it's not a matter of if, but when.

 

There simply isn't a long term alternative, because the reality is with most women there will be conflict over it until it does happen...men realize at some point it's easier to just go with it (ask married men) even if they may completely agree or be on board with it. Especially if it carries any kind of benefit, men are logical about these decisions more than you may give them credit for.

 

You give a man a rational choice, he can understand that and make the logical decision based on his needs, even if it's not entirely agreeable.

 

My prediction is in the future that things will change, farther distancing themselves from traditional values/models like marriage, there will be more alternatives and less emphasis on the "stereotype" of what marriage is. Less pressure externally to conform.

 

The expectations of marriage are irresponsible, but most people are figuring out this one way or another, usually through a failed marriage...but finally we're at a point in history that is becoming more self-aware, logical, knowledgeable and it's becoming harder to ignore the realities and deny the proof and essentially the reality and misinformation.

 

I questioned him multiple times during our reconciliatory phase about why he decided he wanted this when he had been so vehemently opposed to it before. And before you say something about him just wanting the sexual side of a relationship back, I'd consider that my fiancé is a handsome, tall, wealthy, successful, funny, extremely charismatic guy. He'd have zero problem finding a new chick to have a casual relationship with every few months.

 

I have no doubt you give wonderful head, or something or other...however I know it takes more than that for a man to come back. But it was his decision to come back...he thought about, likely had a lot of self-talk and indecisiveness in there, it pretty much always goes down the same road with those type of men. I would of course question his emotional investment, frankly I wouldn't trust it personally however I won't get into that.

 

As far as all those highlights you mentioned about him, it's irrelevant...women don't understand what it's like to be a man, if only it was easy as you thought it would I doubt many men would stay in one place for very long at all with women...but it's not, the practicalities of life, the emotional attachments and needs are the same, casual relationships are only so fulfilling.

 

Additionally women grossly underestimate the factors and insecurities of men, they think just because they see this perfect little package in their love-struck eyes that every woman sees him that way and that's the reality he lives...I can assure you that as great as this guy has it as you may, it doesn't mean that's how he feels about himself nor is he necessarily confident to the type of women he truly desires...if he was all that and confident don't you think he'd be dating supermodels? it paints no picture of what his issues or insecurities may be, which an extremely part of the equation.

 

Whatever you do, whoever you are...that his standard, not because he can get whatever he wants, but what he feels capable of getting, all those others things don't reflect upon a persons ability to get the kind of women he may desire as you think...I doubt you are a bad looking girl and I imagine you're not as successful as he is, however I know there are practical reasons he is choosing to be with you, you ever think of why he doesn't do better if he could? he could get any woman he wants...right? but oh, he chose you for some reason because you're so amazing or what? sorry, it's not very romantic, but people make choices in partners based on factors within themselves, not just you.

 

Trust me, you'd never want to know the real truth about men...if he's not an idiot, he knows what you want to hear, what to say and he will would have worked in order to prove it once he lost you...but that's not coming from the source you think it is.

 

His explanation was always that, in addition to being in love and being incredibly compatible, he felt that being with me makes him a better person. I'm not going to go too deeply in to this, because I have a feeling you've already stopped reading since I'm a woman and my take on things can't possibly be accurate, and surely he trash-talks me behind my back when he's out with his friends.

 

This is very common rhetoric with men, you have to recognize that...I know, romance/buzz kill, you really take it to heart, it means a lot to you and you said this guy was charming right? well good, but here's the thing...most things men have said have been done before, where do you think they learn them?...people don't realize how influenced they are by typical things, not because it's real, but what is supposed to be "real" and "true"...but I know that's not what "it" is, because I understand charm myself very very well.

 

 

skip to 4 min mark if you'd like, that's what I'm talking about

 

I think that makes my point there in more ways than one.

 

Anyways, I don't even know why I'm chipping in here because I think the obvious solution is for you to avoid marriage, as I'm sure you plan on doing, and to leave those who are happy to be happy. As many previous posters have mentioned, we have the virtue of choice in this life. I'm not sure why you're so concerned with others justifying theirs to you.

 

It's not obvious to avoid marriage, I'm no fool, I know how women really think about this whole post and situation here (and I won't elaborate either) but the real reason I am so adamant about posting here and on LS in general is that I think the truth and reality needs to be felt...over the years I've seen so much BS flying around back and forth, people that don't even know what "real" is, everyone is so busy caught in romance novels and movies that anything that even closely resembles that and they think they've got "it"...but I for one am tired of seeing "it" being so easily thrown around, I've seen so many people become hurt, I've see so many people fully commit and believe in these ideals and fantasies that in the end...not only ended up with them being massively confused but left in disbelief.

 

And the refuse to understand why, they refuse to listen, they rather just belief in these all telling wonderful optimistic views in our life that are supposed to make everything better by deflecting and rejecting any of the realities in life that make us feel bad or think of things we don't want to think about. Furthermore refuse to take responsibility for it, which is the most damaging and the biggest waste of valuable experience.

 

The reality is, most of it can be seen and even prevented by looking at things transparently, for seeing theme for what they really are...but hey, most people aren't that concerned with the "reality" or even the depths of "true love".

 

This argument may be spoken with logic and reason, but it is fueled by the romantic inside of me...believe it or not.