Why do men want to be married?

[xxoo]

At the end of the day what this thread represents the most to me, is men simply don't talk openly enough about their feelings on a major topic that concerns a lot of men for many different reasons...that's why this has been directed towards men, women are already vocal and transparent about their thoughts and feelings at least in this regard, as much as they can be.

 

But when the happily married men do talk openly about their feelings on the topic, you dismiss it as ignoring their true feelings.

 

If you are going to have a conversation, you need to listen as well as speak.

[xxoo]

I told my husband this, and he said that the men you describe probably had dads that were pus5ies or were raised by single moms. He said men raised in a home with a strong and assertive dad wouldn't have this view of marriage. He said to tell you you're wrong and that he's the king of his castle And to find some married friends that have balls.

 

Haha, so true about the bolded

[stillafool]

Wow Ninja, reading your first post makes me think of the saying:

 

'Marriage is prison for men and slavery for women'.

 

So sad you feel that way as I think you'd be a great husband.

[xxoo]

There is nothing sexy about a man that does whatever you want, agrees with everything you say, and acts like a puppy wanting to please his owner. I would not find that attractive.

 

I wouldn't find that attractive, either.

 

These men who are "whipped" and also have no sex: coincidence? Or related?

[M30USA]

I tried to be assertive and not let my wife run the roost, but it wound up with me getting assaulted. Some women have made up their mind in advance that they won't have an equal marriage. The name Jezebel literally means "without cohabitation". For men who mistakenly marry such women, there literally is no solution; passive or assertive they will get driven out either by choice or desperation.

[Grumpybutfun]

This subject therefore is something I believe is important to talk about, this is not just about me.

 

Ninjainpjs:

I in no way thought you were trying to make personal jabs at me or directly trying to challenge me. I enjoy a good discussion and debate and have been known to have some that have lasted all night at my home. I like this discussion, that is why I write so many words.

In real life, I don't volunteer information, but if I trust you and you are in my circle of friends I talk about things openly, especially when someone comes to me and asks about their own troubles. My friends are way more open than me about their wives and children, and that is something I get teased about a lot. I suppose I do guard my woman's privacy to some extent because it is in my nature to do so. I know she is the same for me with her friends and family too.

I agree that this is something that people need to speak about...and I agree that it is important. Perhaps I was under the impression that you were asking in a general way what made me decide to get married or what was my viewpoints on men getting marriage.

Perhaps, you are also wanting to know about what challenges married men face in their unions? Or, you are wanting to know where men drew their inspiration and support when things went poorly in their marriages too?

 

 

You asked- What part have I found I wasn't happy with? Well, that would depend on what you mean by that...because sometimes I am unhappy with my marriage because I am unhappy in general. I have bad days where nothing goes right and every person you meet is an imbecile and my wife is calling me while I have ten other people at work yelling in the background and I snap at her. Sometimes I am unhappy in my marriage because I am being an ass and didn't get my way because I just want to go fishing and she wants me to attend another family function with people I don't particularly enjoy. She forgives me for snapping at her and I forgive her for having a boring assed set of family members she needs me to attend to for a few minutes.

I mean, it is a myriad of little things and a few really big serious things. Challenges we overcame? Well, there would be my being out to sea for 11 months at a time for years at a time, never being home during most holidays or birthdays or anniversaries, my need to make sure my men were safe and okay even if it made my days longer and her nights lonelier, my need for control even though she is a fly by the seat of her pants kind of gal, my intense need for everyone to do their job and be efficient which she thinks is ludicrous when you are at a deli or mechanics, my inability to tolerate stupid people or people who absolutely will not help themselves and she helps the world without questioning, my jealousy because she is so beautiful and effusive that I don't want to share her smile with anyone, and of course there are the things like overcoming childhood trauma, navigating our lives so we are both satisfied, and supporting dreams even when they seem to take a long time to come to fruition.

Each and every thing we overcame, we honestly just talked the crap out of it, wouldn't let the other give up or quit, and when I needed her to be my rock, she was, and when she needed me to be her rock, I was. We are best friends and lovers and that entailed us to fight through the messy and yell some and slam some doors (and take off a few doors when she locked them) and go from pain and anger to frantic make-up sex or sometimes feeling as though my heart was going to explode when she walked out of a room, almost certain this time she would run away. The important thing is that we did not stop fighting, we did not stop talking and I have worked very hard to make it up to her for all the times I was away. Simply, I love, adore and respect her therefore I fight for her when she needs me to and she does the same when I am pigheaded. Do I get mad at her? Sure. Do I ever want to leave her? Nope, I know what it feels like to be away from her for a long time and I hated it. Do I ever regret marrying her? Not even once.

I am not of the opinion that adversity makes something less impactful and relevant to my life, but that sometimes it makes it more so.

Good chat,

Grumps

[Ninjainpajamas]

Perhaps, you are also wanting to know about what challenges married men face in their unions? Or, you are wanting to know where men drew their inspiration and support when things went poorly in their marriages too?

 

The thing is, people like to separate the good from the bad...like here are the whole mess of marriages that do not work according to plan but we're not going to address those problems, which is likely the majority of marriages...and then here are a few marriages that do work, we're going to speak about those in glowing terms and focus on why it's so positive to balance things out.

 

What is the difference?

 

"Well, some people just know what they want!"

 

Just step out of your bubble for a second and think about how that sounds when somebody is saying that while trying to justify their competency in "love", "marriage" or whatever...does that REALLY make it any more convincing or justifiable? can you really hear those words from a teenagers mouth and actually believe it? who makes the rules there of who really knows what they're talking and who are the rest who are completely blind and inexperienced? or are they the same? I mean really? because that's amazing if you can achieve or determine that within people.

 

"Wellll some men are different and you just get through your ups and downs and ultimately come closer together, etc..."

 

That is essentially the argument to the majority of my points, they're not really argued or contested they're pushed to the side in a way "Ohhh we don't have "those" problems, those are just "bad" marriages, us successful marriage people have nothing like that in our lives, we're perfectly independent of that".

 

It's like the 1% of America, completely disconnected from the 99%

 

That is the essence of what I don't believe, It's like Ford motors being notorious for breaking down but you go to one guy and he's like...

 

"Oh, I've never had any of those engines problems...my Ford is completely different!"

 

Well, why?

 

"You know, because it is! some Ford engines work, they're not all bad!"

 

But if Ford engines aren't bad, why the hell are people having so many problems with them? not seeing a pattern here?

 

"You just got to live in this bubble of successful Ford engine owners that don't have any "major" problems, then you can disassociate yourself from the rest of the group and say you've figured it out..you don't have to explain the overall issues with the engine, you just focus on the what works"

 

So you didn't exactly solve a problem or come up with any relative solution that anyone else could really rationally apply, even though you have the same Ford engine that everyone else has?

 

"Oh it's not the same....after all, we are not humans from this planet, our men and women work entirely different...those really solid points you made earlier that mapped out some of the major well-known issues with the Ford engine but they are largely irrelevant and inapplicable to our situation, because we say so....we see it from a different perspective."

 

Alright...so fair enough, you have your own perspective about it....but what would people think of your relationship from the outside looking in? what would people think if they knew the entirety of your marriage if it was completely transparent and open for the world to see? do you think that everyone would have the same conclusion and objective view if they coudl see it with their own eyes? would that be something people would really want to attest to being true happiness if they were able to see beyond the words/superficial level to the substances of it all? did you really figure out something unique or special that all of these less successful relationships did not?

 

And that's the main point here, the disassociation with everything in it's entirety...it just doesn't sell well to me, because we're all human beings here, we're all men and women from the same planet, and while the cultural and influence in our upbringings can be entirely different, you will find that when you communicate in a real human way that you can connect with just about anyone around the world...we did not evolve into separate species, therefore the alienation and dismissal of valid points and issues is suspicious...because not only did you not encounter them for yourselves, you're claiming they've posed no threat to your relationships/marriages...which leaves some smelling awry.

 

Like I've said....feel-good-stories about successful marriages, no matter how simplistic in their descriptions or general overview need no justification to those already determined to believe in it...but I am personally a person that questions everything, I am a rebel to conformity, I believe mostly of what we've experienced culturally and traditionally is man-made, that means some guy/group of guys told everyone else how to live and what was valuable and moral...and did the same for the opposite.

 

I don't think marriages deserve a special place in this society any longer...I do not believe they hold a monopoly on love, happiness, fulfillment or anything else that is spoken in successful marriages, I do not like the associations and imagery that come associated with marriages and then the rest gets dumped on the lost and bewildered singles...IMO it is far harder to go through life searching inwards than looking on the outside to make yourself feel whole...support does not need to be placed on the sole shoulders of one person, I feel that is peoples vulnerability in being open and transparent about their feelings and opinions, people are afraid to say something out of the status quo they're afraid to admit something that rattles the cages of their desired view of not only their own lives but the world as a whole.

 

At the end of the day, arguing the good versus bad marriages or even marriage being justified as a whole is mute, the results speak for themselves, I don't need to convince people of what they can see with their own eyes, and just need to make the valid points that are already present, that is the practicality of my opinions...if it can't be applied to what's going on then i don't just demand a person live with an ideology that only exists in their mind...I try to be realistic in what is actually happening and don't just feel that everyone is completely independent of each other on this planet because we're all special and unique little sunflowers, like aliens from separate planets that all decided to congregate on one planet and slug it out.

 

So for myself seeing is believing to me, not hearing/reading. And what I speak is what I see, and has come from sources good and bad, I've talked to people of all ages, religions and backgrounds about different life topics as it is of interest of me, I've logged onto LS from different countries to express my views while some people probably think I sit in a basement reading about life on the internet...but when I see people, I see the similarities not the differences. When I interact with them I hear their struggles, troubles and relationship issues that all strike a similar cord...I find it amusing to be called narrow, it is opinionated, but the net is cast wider than you may believe.

[man_in_the_box]

I don't think marriages deserve a special place in this society any longer...I do not believe they hold a monopoly on love, happiness, fulfillment or anything else that is spoken in successful marriages,

 

Who is saying that?

[Grumpybutfun]

NIP:

I am not trying to figure anything out... you are. At least that was what I thought this thread was about. Have you relied upon your own experiences? Have you ever been married? Have you ever been in love? Worked at a relationship? Found something special in another person? Actually talked to people who weren't just dumping on you?

You see...I don't care what you or anyone else does. My life is my responsibility and so I hold my own counsel as to what is working, special or relevant. You act as though by collecting the rotten experiences of people, this somehow makes you an expert on marriage, but that is like saying you recorded and talked to millions of women to work out what birthing a child is like. Until you are a part of a situation, you don't know it except externally.

I still think you are narrow minded, and I am thinking it has to do with being young and unnecessarily involved in the relationship struggles, troubles and issues of others instead of collecting your own personal data. You act like you are the first person to question the lack of kindness and communication in marriage, the failures of marriage in society, the differences between the sexes in marriage, the lack of loyalty and happiness in marriage? Ha! Rumination on marriage is a full time hobby for some people. This subject is only deep on a sociological practicum level to you. You are obviously sensitive to the struggles and challenges and failures of marriage without listening to those of us who say there is something more rewarding. Therefore, I am going to conclude that your inquiries are more about sociological theorems than about the real life day to day marriages that aren't broken by infidelity, gambling, addictions, abuse, identity/self-esteem issues, GIGs and general malaise.

I still stand by the opinion that finding health and happiness in marriage is about choice. People just don't wake up married. They get to that point by the choices they make everyday from the moment they start dating. You choose what kind of person you are and in turn that helps you to attract someone with the same principles, values and practicalities as you have. Treating people who take their husbands for granted, or cheat on their wives, or spend all of the rent money, or lie about an emotional affair at work, or refusing to find a job to help support children, or being unkind on a regular basis like they have no responsibility in their choices is irresponsible...all choices, all the responsibility of them. When people say, "Well, I married him thinking he wasn't a lair, cheater, gambler, etc." and you question them further, there are always red flags that they should have treated as data instead of thinking they could change them.

 

I don't think marriages deserve a special place in this society any longer...I

do not believe they hold a monopoly on love, happiness, fulfillment or anything

else that is spoken in successful marriages

 

I am glad you figured out what you needed to know from this thread. No one should ever do anything they do not believe in or hope for. Being single is a practical plan and will serve you very well.

Conclusion,

Grumps

[lucy_in_disguise]

Ninja,

 

I don't get it. What is ur question here? Or what are u trying to prove?

 

No one is saying marriage is the only way or all marriages are great. But why are you trying to deny that some of them might work? That some people might enjoy the companionship and the kids, the tax breaks and the second income safety net, over the lives they had when they were single?

 

I mean, I'm just not getting your response to hearing about those experiences. You seem to imply that everyone who describes marriage as working for them is in denial or a liar. So tell me, how would those men's lives be improved by being single? Take ur average "happily married" dude living in a podunk town, married to a woman he doesn't hate, with whom he has 3 kids he loves.

 

How would his life be better if he was a single dad? (lets please compare apples to apples here, not average overweight married schmuck from Ohio to a bachelor w/o kids making bank in NY).

 

Worrying about dudes babamama brings into kids' lives, vs knowing they are taken care of every evening

 

Regular sex (lets assume mainly blah for the sake of our hypothetical example) vs celibacy/ troling online for strange pussy. Lets face it, in most American towns the pussy gets stranger and stranger the older u are playin the game.

 

Lower taxes vs higher taxes

 

House full of noise vs. empty

 

I am just not seeing the appeal of staying single if u want kids. I know that's not a factor for u , and I admit that changes the equation. But many ppl including many men want them.

 

I will also say, IMO part of the reason marriage is as appealing as it is, is because of how entrenched our society is in that model. Because most ppl marry and it is the end goal for many, with age, I believe u are marginalized as a single person. You will lose friends, miss out on tax breaks, and your dating options are limited. I actually agree with u that that's bull****. It would be great if we as a society didn't push a model that works well for so few, on everyone.

 

But don't hate the player. Hate the game.

[lucy_in_disguise]

As I was composing my previous post i realized what the breakdown of the issue is as I see it.

 

Q: Marriage is still the status quo in the USA. More accurately, ending up divorced or stuck in an unhappy marriage is the status quo. Wtf?

 

A: Tough ****. It takes a long time for societies to evolve. Despite the havoc divorce wreaks, from the point of view of society as a whole, marriage still serves a purpose in many circumstances. Single moms and their kids tend to have much higher poverty rates then their married counterparts. Less kids born out of wedlock= less mouths for the govt to worry about feeding.

 

Q: Knowing the poor statistics, why get married?

 

A1: Because so many get married, the

Statistics about being middle aged and single, partially single with kids, aren't great either. On the marriage side, you risk divorce or being bound to someone you start to dislike after a year or two. On the single side for many it's a life of monotony and Internet dating minus the societal perks of married life. If marriage wasn't the model, or if ppl knew how to be single better and more average ppl took that plunge, it might be different. But with the balance as it is, marriage is a risk that appears to be worth taking.

 

A2: statistically, marriage is not so bad. The 50% divorce rate varies by age and socioeconomic status, so depending on ones demographics, it may be much lower. And the cost of divorce hides the fact that marriage can be lucrative in many cases. Tax breaks, cost savings of an economy of scale, the effect of having a partner who is supportive on your career. I would imagine that in many cases, a marriage may work for a while and be beneficial. The it stops working and many ppl get divorced. Divorces have a bad rep for being davastating emotionally and financially but u need to consider the good with the bad. Just because it is over and there is a transactional cost in transitioning back to single hood doesn't mean it didn't serve a purpose for those years that it worked. An unromantic wy to look at things no doubt, but that's how I view it.

[thefooloftheyear]

When you walk in to your divorce lawyer. he looks at your situation, and he flat out tells you that you are fcked for the rest of your life-unless she somehow shows mercy on you.....All because you just "werent on the same page"......

 

Yep...what a deal...

 

TFY

[xxoo]

The ford analogy.....why does that guy's ford purr like a kitten? Because he knows how to drive it, maintain it, and care for it.

 

And he didn't pick a lemon.

[Quiet Storm]

The ford analogy.....why does that guy's ford purr like a kitten? Because he knows how to drive it, maintain it, and care for it.

 

And he didn't pick a lemon.

 

 

Right.

 

We gave our 99 Explorer with 200K+ miles on it to our son- it runs perfect Meanwhile, my Lexus has been in and out of the shop.

 

Ninja, you shouldn't get married. It works for some people, though.

 

The reason I say you are narrow minded is because you take one kind of marriage and assume all are like that. You make assumptions based on your own limited experience. And when people counter that with a positive experience, it seems like you dismiss it, rather than thoughtfully consider it.

 

Marriage still works for a lot people. Even guys.

[carhill]

Why do men want to be married? From a retrospective perspective, after having been married, admittance to the 'married men's club' is one potential 'reason'. I didn't find out the secret handshake until I was 40. When every man in one's social circle is married, being the 'outsider' has social repercussions far beyond simply feeling like a third wheel, and the latter is strictly a personal choice. Married people tend to socialize with married people and, at least in my demographic, everyone is married, save for a few widows and widowers.

 

Prior to being married, I would have opined all kinds of flowery things like having the life long and loving marriage my parents did, wanting to have children, having a life partner and all that kind of stuff. Now, older and wiser, and remaining 'in the club' due to having been married, I see it a bit differently, mainly in how my married and LTR friends interact with me. They know I 'know', so are more open and accepting and loving and less distant than from the period when I was 'single'.

 

I liked who I was when I was married and perhaps that dynamic will come again in life. Other than that opined above, regarding 'the club', which I generally dismiss more as social dynamics rather than a real reason why to get married, I can't think of one solid reason why, right now. Tomorrow, who knows? That's how things go in life.

[Ninjainpajamas]

Ninja,

 

I don't get it. What is ur question here? Or what are u trying to prove

 

Points already been proven IMO...there's nothing to prove in that respect, it's pretty much a dead horse. My initial arguments and points were made which I feel confidently about and were very strong, not challenged themselves and really something that will be quite easily validated in the world unless you live under a rock.

 

So I think the results speak for themselves, what is being discussed here if anything are the "positive" marriages that have "worked", it's really been side-tracked...I mean if you're convinced by the rhetoric that's good for you, for myself there wasn't a whole of lot of support outside what you would expect...companionship, building a life together, a family, a partner by your side through thick and thin and all the sweet stories within the buxom of these endearing tables, like the cat who hugged a puppy...I mean these are things people hear long before they even understand what that is, people are already in-love or idealistic about marriage in itself before they can even understand or feel love...they've already established what it is and will be without even experiencing it...yet they have expectations and a belief and often times of an insistence of what it is, after all, people can define their own beliefs.

 

But go for it, take a roll of the dice if it seems like a good enough argument for yourself...listen to the couples that "made it work", just don't be surprised if at the end, you're in that big group of people with the sunken heads, married or divorced wondering why in the hell did they did this,....what I've been told about marriage is a complete fallacy, what I expected to happen, develop or experience was quite different from the reality and what I thought it would be.

 

Because in my mind, if you're not having success in your relationships....good luck making a marriage work. But people think their problems are going to go away or easier to deal with, they think it's going to add stability, commitment and security and all that jazz....a platform to "take it to the next level"..

 

But hey, go ahead and avoid all these things that are said and felt by many people in the world...and simplify it to "marriage isn't for you"..."it's not for everyone"...In my book, that just shows me you don't really understand it well enough to make a solid logical/rational argument about it.

 

Here's how this is working...

 

Valid/solid points VS Fluff (we don't have any of those problems, our marriages are "working")

 

Riiiiiigght...but hey go for it, sounds like good advice to you? justifying why single is worse than being married but cutting down the single life and showing how "empty" it is compared to marriage...I mean honestly, that's kind of funny to me, because I don't know If I've seen emptier people in this world than some who were married.

 

Sometimes even if you are alone in your life and single....is it better to be alone or and feel lonely or in a marriage and still feel like you're all alone even though you technically have someone by your side? I don't know about you guys, but what sounds a lot worse to me.

 

But we won't talk about those scenarios...don't worry guys, that will never happen to you, I'm sure your partner will fill that void, make you fill loved, support and comforted through all of your pains, listen and understand all of your problems and know exactly what to do at all times...and you'll grow like vines around a window embracing the gateway into your blissful abode, that was just so magical to build together and nothing like being horribly alone....after all, what's worse than being alone right? probably a top reason I even see married and unmarried people alike stay together....but those aren't "realities" in this world...these are just the "unhappy marriages" guys, these people have no major problems, it's all goooood.

 

 

The ford analogy.....why does that guy's ford purr like a kitten? Because he knows how to drive it, maintain it, and care for it.

 

And he didn't pick a lemon.

 

His Ford engine doesn't purr like a kitten....it breaks down frequently, but he makes excuses for it and he keeps the problems behind a closed garage door with the the windows covered so nobody can peak inside...whenever his buddies ask he just says he likes working on his car a lot, they think nothing of it although a bit strange but move on with their lives...Bob fends off the reports in the news that are pointing out the issues which have gained national attention but Bob claims he doesn't have any of those "problems" that the other engines have even though it was a well-known issue determined by the manufacturer for that year and an issue within the fundamental design of it...but he likes to pretend that because it's his engine it's better and without the typical problems...it's nothing serious he says, nothing more than the normal maintenance, he minimizes the struggles and instead changes the subject by telling stories driving near the coast with the wind blowing through the three hairs atop of his head, the cool wind and blue skies and that one time a seagull flew down stealing his weenie from his hot dog bun which always gets a good laugh....complimenting the power and the way it turns corners and the design of the body is classic and timeless, something that never needs to change or be updated.

 

Nobody really questions it beyond that and trust Bob's assessment, it all sounds great...he tells all his friends about it and they listen to Bob's advice trusting the praising and word of their dear friend...Bob gives him some simple maintenance tips, says changing the oil and cleaning the carburetor keeps things running in tip top shape.

 

His friends are so impressed they purchase the same engine and it runs great initially, like a dream...but weeks later they start noticing little problems, they tell Bob and he says that's normal, the new engine is just breaking in and it'll just balance out and run fine in the end, nothing to worry about. But the problems keep arising and but Bob luckily has a remedy of what to do and it's probably just a minor coincidence he says, so they trust Bob and continue on.

 

A year later, after experiencing constant issues and breakdowns however his friends start to grow suspicious about Bob's analysis and feedback of this engine....was he just biased or did he just get lucky? They question Bob a little more suspiciously, but Bob claims that he knows exactly what he is doing and it must have been due to their poor maintenance and reckless driving that they had such an unfortunate experience and that it just seems to work great for him.

 

You see Bob lives in his own world, in spite of all what is happening around him he insists, denies and defends his engine...you cannot question it, he made the right choice and that will always be his stance...the problems? minimal and manageable at best...at the end of the day, Bob wouldn't trade his engine for the world...he says it works for him and some other people, but if you ask him why, he'll tell you about that day driving on the beach, with the wind blowing through his three hairs...

 

And surprisingly, there's always someone willing to listen to Bob, if only they knew what went on in the garage.

 

[xxoo]

Or maybe it does purr like a kitten, and you just don't believe him.

 

Even if 95% (or more) of marriages are lousy, a GREAT marriage is one of the most rewarding experiences a person can have in the course of a lifetime.

 

I'm guessing you don't like Vegas?

[Grumpybutfun]

companionship, building a life together, a family, a partner by your side

through thick

 

If these aren't values to you, that is fine, but don't dismiss them as being fluffy kittens until you have had them and know their worth. Your replies are oddly negative and jaded for someone who is saying they are seeking knowledge. Why didn't you just say I only want answers that categorically dismiss marriage as evil. I only want people here to talk about the negatives. I did list issues we have had and yet they just weren't dysfunctional enough for you because we actually survived them without becoming jaded, divorced or angry people. I never once said being single was a bad thing, and yet you act like everyone who gave positive stories are dissing single life. The best thing for one person is not the best for another.

 

 

Valid/solid points VS Fluff (we don't have any of those problems, our marriages are "working")

 

:lmao: Right, and calling someone's relationship and marriage fluff just because you don't value the same things they do is making a point. The point being that you are smarter and more wise than all of us who say our marriages are rewarding and so we are liars. I can handle debate, and conversations about issues, but I don't tolerate disrespect or someone questioning my integrity by calling me a liar or saying that I am simpleminded or brainwashed by the establishment. You are being rude by dismissing those of us who have a differing opinion than yours. In my estimation, the only real point you made is that you have viewed marriages as being negative so therefore all marriages are bad, and if they aren't, they will be one day. Son, I don't give a barrel of damns whether you marry or not, but do not act as though you established some sort of point when all you did was make a conclusion based on your initial theory because you dismissed half of the testimony here as being lies and words by stupid people because it didn't fit into your nice little bundle of negative rhetoric.

This is all I will say on the matter, as I have had more fair-minded and balanced discussions with fenceposts.

Not sure why I bother,

Grumps

Edited October 21, 2013 by Grumpybutfun

[man_in_the_box]

Points already been proven IMO...there's nothing to prove in that respect, it's pretty much a dead horse. My initial arguments and points were made which I feel confidently about and were very strong, not challenged themselves and really something that will be quite easily validated in the world unless you live under a rock.

 

Whoa now, hold your horses. I highly disagree with this.

 

If I look back at your original post, which was excessively long for the number of points you made, I could derive the following:

 

- Marriage sucks for men (pretty much the entire post)

- The decision to get married is made too easily (paragraph 14)

- People get married for the sake of getting married (paragraph 16)

- People have no expectations of marriage (paragraph 16)

 

Now the only mildly argument you make is your experience with married people you have spoken to during your life. While empirical evidence CAN be a substantial argument when you can prove it bears relevance I hardly have seen you make any attempt to convince us that it does. Personal findings and observations become less and less meaningful when the concept of marriage in general is being touched. You need thousands of samples from all sorts of different backgrounds and individual parameters to even make a slightly substantial argument based on empirical evidence and then we are talking about statistical research on a very basic level. I am certainly no expert in this field but I know enough about it that “ I can't tell you how many unhappy married couples and individuals I've encountered over the years” is not going to hold up in any semi-serious discussion about marriage as a general concept.

 

Aside from the abovementioned you bolster your argument with theatrical novels describing hypothetical men in marriages through a very specific field of view. While entertaining to read (sometimes) they do not add anything substantial to defending your thesis on marriage. To be honest after the 7th page it has become too tedious to read another sappy story about some poor sob being imprisoned by the proverbial ball & chain of marriage.

 

I’m not too interested in going over the rest of the replies and comments but what I remember is that it was a lot of vague and/or nonsensical generalizations about married men, women and marriage, hypothetical anecdotes about individual cases, claims of inflated authority on the subject, intangible concepts and descriptions, MORE essays on the tragedy of being a married men, an analogy with religion, inconceivable rhetoric (post #68 – wtf are you talking about?), absurd exaggerations (post #78 has some wonderful examples) and probably more fallacies but I cba to check it all out.

 

Personally I find it the worst when you take responders arguments and instead of reply, rewrite them to a completely inconsistent, simplistic version (post #92 is full of it). The way you make caricatures of posters by presenting them as some sort of repetitive drone that spews out prefab arguments that unanimously rely on asserting that marital problems are exclusive to ‘bad marriages’ almost feels like some sort of cleverly disguised ad hominem attack.

 

Now don’t take this the bad way but I really think you should take a peg down or two on how, erhm, ‘proven’ your points are.

 

Furthermore I am not married and have no particular strong feelings for or against marriage.

[emva07]

My mom calls it the 3 C's (in Spanish)

 

Casa(home), comida (food), and culo (ass)

 

:laugh:

 

God I hope that's not true.

 

My opinion is simple.....legacy. That was the original intent of marriage.

[Ninjainpajamas]

Or maybe it does purr like a kitten, and you just don't believe him.

 

Even if 95% (or more) of marriages are lousy, a GREAT marriage is one of the most rewarding experiences a person can have in the course of a lifetime.

 

I'm guessing you don't like Vegas?

 

Why would I believe him? what good reason do I have? because he said so?

 

You got 95 percent of marriages having issues and being lousy what makes you so convinced they are apart of the 5? but a few people say they're part of the 5 percent and doing great for no apparent reason other than stating qualities that any human being can experience with any other human being regardless of title and I'm supposed to take that to the bank just because they said so? much less stating their opinions on the internet without any objective scrutiny or outside analysis/opinion or their actual marriages or relationships?

 

You realize how many relationships are defined by the perspective of one person? what's next? asking the parents who only have an amazing child to raise their hand.

 

You wouldn't take a 5 percent bet in Vegas, why would you do it in marriage? and why wouldn't you admit the reality of it and the true struggles to maintaining the marriage, what' it's really about instead of just glossing over it making every issue that you've had seem like just a bump in the road...so people naively interpret that and simplify their relationships, defining them by distance not quality and being unable to even differentiate a good or bad marriage without anything to compare to.

 

You really think people know what they're doing when they're initially getting married? they've got no idea whether it'll last six months or sixty years...most people aren't thinking that far ahead, but that's what society is ok with it, it's just this blind roll of the dice, it's just something you do..but there nothing that is shared or learned because it's just a matter of "luck". In spite of the divorce rates and marriages simply losing their mystique and aura about them, you simply see nothing happening at all...nobody has a solution, some marriages are just "bad" few of them are good...and I guess as a society we're ok with that abysmal success rate.

 

We're ok with people screwing up their lives before they seek advice, it's only till after you're in the hole do people ask.

 

If these aren't values to you, that is fine, but don't dismiss them as being fluffy kittens until you have had them and know their worth. Your replies are oddly negative and jaded for someone who is saying they are seeking knowledge. Why didn't you just say I only want answers that categorically dismiss marriage as evil. I only want people here to talk about the negatives. I did list issues we have had and yet they just weren't dysfunctional enough for you because we actually survived them without becoming jaded, divorced or angry people. I never once said being single was a bad thing, and yet you act like everyone who gave positive stories are dissing single life. The best thing for one person is not the best for another.

 

Values are similar amongst human beings...everybody needs somebody, everyone enjoys love, support and someone to depend on...these are not values that are different here, what is the "value" or marriage in itself? if they can be so horrible or so great? when do people even know marriage isn't for them, when do people even know when to get married or divorced?

 

So many expectations and myths about marriage it's a shame married people can't be more transparent about them...I highly doubt if your hypothetical 18 year daughter came up to you telling you they are in love with a 30 year old man whom they've found "the one" with each other, you're going to be as optimistic and be like "Heeeey, you found it too! how great is that, go for it kido...there's some minor ups and downs, but you'll be alright" *slight jab to the arm* whooooole different can of worms of advice I'm willing to bet on if it were someone that were close to you were you had to actually think about what you're going to say next to this not-so-random disconnected person on the internet.

 

Now the only mildly argument you make is your experience with married people you have spoken to during your life. While empirical evidence CAN be a substantial argument when you can prove it bears relevance I hardly have seen you make any attempt to convince us that it does. Personal findings and observations become less and less meaningful when the concept of marriage in general is being touched. You need thousands of samples from all sorts of different backgrounds and individual parameters to even make a slightly substantial argument based on empirical evidence and then we are talking about statistical research on a very basic level. I am certainly no expert in this field but I know enough about it that “ I can't tell you how many unhappy married couples and individuals I've encountered over the years” is not going to hold up in any semi-serious discussion about marriage as a general concept.

 

Are you out of your mind? empirical evidence when it comes to love and happiness and marriage?

 

How exactly do you propose such a grand experiment Watson? shall I travel buy ufo interviewing every single married man on planet earth and get back to you in a few hundred thousand years with my data? And what questions should I ask?

 

1) Do you have a happy marriage?

 

- Yes, I do

 

2) Are you telling me the truth?

 

- Yes

 

3) May I have some of your cookies?

 

- Yes

 

Welp! that about covers it, thank you very much for your objective view and analysis, btw you might want to pick up the shattered fragments of glass off the floor that your husband threw your head into the other day because he has "anger issues" but totally still loves you and respects you...thanks!

 

Are you that guy in the movies that's like on a military outpost?

 

*downed helicopter 100 yards away, tanks spewing flames from the turret, explosions all around*

 

You on the radio "Sir, I believe something is going wrong here sir...do you have confirmation?!"

 

"Corporal what is going on there? you have eyes on the ground, what is your situation?"

 

- "Well sir, I see chaos and destruction all around me, helis down, tanks a pile of twisted metal....AHHH! the watch tower just blew up next to me, I think something isn't right here sir, can you have intel scan the area with a drone to confirm a possible enemy threat, sir!"

 

"What the hell is wrong with you Corporal, get on the 50 cal and defend yourself or get the hell out of there, where is the rest of your unit for god sakes!"

 

- "Well sir, I need some empirical data and confirmation from intel before I can use my common sense sir AHHHH I think I've been shot in the arm...AHH it's so cold, help heeelp heeeelp! I think I believe you sir, we are under attack but now I need a medic!....MEEEDIIIIC!"

 

If you can't read between the lines and see the writing on the wall jack-in-the-box....my bob are you going to make up some stupid decisions in your life.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would LOVE to see you get married taking the whole mathematical/scientific angle with marriage...and make sure you report back to LS that's the most important part in the process...you'll be our first lab rat.

 

BTW we're all not discussing anything at this point with any real substance, we're just arguing.

[man_in_the_box]

Are you out of your mind? empirical evidence when it comes to love and happiness and marriage?

 

How exactly do you propose such a grand experiment Watson? shall I travel buy ufo interviewing every single married man on planet earth and get back to you in a few hundred thousand years with my data? And what questions should I ask?

 

What the hell are you talking about? I'm just critisizing the way you only use your empirical evidence to makes general statements about marriage. Perhaps you can agree that they're just opinions? That way I'd take my criticism back and we all know it is just what marriage looks like from your point of view instead of an objective fact.

 

And no, I cannot make any statements on marriage based on my empirical observations and I never have claimed anything like that. What I can do to make statements concerning marriage is find some reliable sources that support that statement. Since the points you are trying to get across are go generic and undefined I doubt anyone could do something like that unless they spend a lot of time on various research methods but that's likely outside the scope in this thread.

 

Anyway I never claimed that marriage sucks because I talked to x people so I fail to see why I need to proof anything.

 

If you can't read between the lines and see the writing on the wall jack-in-the-box....my bob are you going to make up some stupid decisions in your life.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would LOVE to see you get married taking the whole mathematical/scientific angle with marriage...and make sure you report back to LS that's the most important part in the process...you'll be our first lab rat.

 

At least if my (hypothetical) marriage fails I'll put the blame on me and my partner instead of something that only exists on paper.

[William]

Before the hyperbole gets out of control and moderation muzzles its portals, let's all remember and stipulate to LoveShack being an interpersonal relationship discussion forum. It's a bunch of laypeople getting together and discussing aspects of their personal lives at the personal level. There are scientific and professional forums for sociologists, social scientists, psychologists, etc, etc to discuss aspects of society and culture at the professional level. LoveShack is not that place. It never was meant to be that place. It's about regular people and their life experiences, all of which are valid.

 

Thanks for reading and please continue the discussion.

[xxoo]

Why would I believe him? what good reason do I have? because he said so?

 

It's his marriage. Who else would know, other than the two people in the marriage? Who else's opinion matters?

 

That seems to be an integral part of your argument: that your opinion of a couple's marriage is more valid than their own.

[FallingLeaves]

NIP.

 

Marriage isn't something you should do if you don't want to, especially if it doesn't mean anything positive for you.

 

However, your personal decision doesn't give you license to decide marriage is just plain out bad for everybody. You may never believe there is such a thing as a "good," "functioning," or "happy" marriage, but don't try telling the people you are judging that. If someone says they're happy, it's not your job to 'prove them wrong.' That will only leave you looking really moronic and them annoyed with you.

 

If I had one thing to pass on to you- think about marriage as synonymous with religion. There will always be people who think that only their religion is "true" or "works." You can disagree, but it's not your place to try to get them to convert to your god and your "only" true way that "works." (The only exception being if someone is in legitimate danger of hurting themselves or others. Marriages that involve abuse, much like cults, need to be interfered with.)

 

You may never, ever understand what it is some people get out of marriage (which is totally cool), but don't take your absence of their understanding as a sign of superiority.

 

Also, because I am genderqueer, I have to say more than just men and women get married. Marriage isn't just for straight people and cis-het couples .