Split Self Affair

[Steadfast]

Judge actions, sure. Judge ourselves? Unhealthy.

 

We are just people. People are people.

 

That's just a huge, crappy, unproductive cop out. If everyone held to that, nothing productive would ever get accomplished. To be excellent we must strive for excellence. Greatness is impossible with this mindset!

 

To those seeking justification however, such a thought is comforting. The exposure of it often brings out hateful feelings. Hate will eat you alive.

[Moper]

If we don't judge ourselves, we never improve.

 

I am just a person...but I should always strive to be a BETTER person.

 

I can see why the concept of split self would appeal to you.

 

Clearly this is a key difference in our mindsets and outlooks.

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

 

I question your need to judge people. I don't about mindsets. I do not see the path from judgineself to being a better person.

 

Are you Catholic, by chance?

[rumbleseat]

I think promoting this theory does a real disservice to people who need help to sort their lives out. All it does is allow them to remain in limbo.

 

A better theory would be that " an object at rest tends to remain at rest until it is acted upon by an outside force".

 

In other words, the ws is the object at rest, likely to remain in a state of inertia until acted upon by an outside force. The outside force that can make them move needs to be someone saying to them " get up off the fence and decide what you want". Preferably, that would be either the BS or the OW telling them to suck it up and decide what they want because they aren't going to suffer through years of waiting while they make up their mind.

[Owl]

Of course. What on earth makes you think this goes against the split self theory?

 

I posted this today on another forum, thinking about this thread here on LS:

 

"The first thing I learnt in Al-Anon was to turn the focus towards myself and self-improvement. That's where I can make a change. Instead of being a victim to my circumstances it empowers me. Yes, I have suffered in my past but why dwell on that when I can use it as a stepping-stone for moving forward. I know I have some scars that will never go away but I play with the hand I've been dealt and make the best of it."

 

And this is true for WS, OW and BS alike.

 

Because, to me, blaming it on a nebulous term like "split self" negates ownership of the actions.

 

Everyone in an affair is conflicted. Or they're not going to remain in an affair long...they'll take action to 'get what they want' one way or another.

 

Using the concept of "split self" to claim that you were always conflicted, but you didn't realize it until somehow the OW magically awoke the realization of that conflict romanticizes the OW...gives her superpowers...and at the same time it absolves the MM of blame for the affair. It puts it instead on his "unrealized unhappiness". I don't buy that.

 

And if you put the 'cause' of the affair and situation on something as goofy as being unhappy and not knowing it, and then suddenly being magically awoken by the OW's mystical powers of tapping your emotions...there's no onus for owning the fact that you had an affair, you hurt those that you loved and promised not to. It makes it "OK"...when it clearly should NOT be 'OK".

[Owl]

I question your need to judge people. I don't about mindsets. I do not see the path from judgineself to being a better person.

 

Are you Catholic, by chance?

 

Not at all. I'm christian, but have some very liberal views that don't jive with most doctrines.

 

Pretty much I believe that God is out there, but how you worship or what name you call him isn't nearly as important as most people want to make it out to be.

 

And as I stated previously...it's more important to judge yourself...and focus on improving yourself. Judging others is for them to do for themselves...as is making improvements to make themselves better people as well.

 

Judge yourself...find the things that you need to improve upon and change...and then take action to do so. This leads you to being a better person.

 

Really as simple as that.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Owl

[Moper]

I do not denigrate faith. To the contrary I have seen many people who use faith well but Inalso see lots and lots of abuse. Faith is just a theory. Split-self is just a theory. One can use a theory, and one can misuse it. A theory is not an end in and of itself.

[Owl]

I do not denigrate faith. To the contrary I have seen many people who use faith well but Inalso see lots and lots of abuse. Faith is just a theory. Split-self is just a theory. One can use a theory, and one can misuse it. A theory is not an end in and of itself.

 

So tell me...how does the theory of split-self lead to self-improvement?

 

How does the theory of split self lead to accepting responsibility for the affair, for the damage done to others, and help you to learn from the affair so as to not to conduct the same action again?

 

That's what I don't see in this.

 

To me...it provides an emotional "get out of jail free" card. It doesn't prompt you to reflect upon the damage you created by being unfaithful.

 

On the contrary...it makes it "OK", and it glamorizes the affair by making it seem like what you should have done all along.

[Steadfast]

I do not denigrate faith. To the contrary I have seen many people who use faith well but Inalso see lots and lots of abuse. Faith is just a theory. Split-self is just a theory. One can use a theory, and one can misuse it. A theory is not an end in and of itself.

 

Utter hogwash. Look deeper into these words to see the foolishness in them. This belief system will leave you hopeless. Who needs that?

[Anna-Belle]

Because, to me, blaming it on a nebulous term like "split self" negates ownership of the actions.

 

Why so into blaming? I see it as understanding and thereby being able to do something about it.

 

there's no onus for owning the fact that you had an affair, you hurt those that you loved and promised not to. It makes it "OK"...when it clearly should NOT be 'OK".

 

There's no contradiction between taking responsibility for your actions and understanding why you did it. The two are perfectly compatible.

 

Guilt on the other hand weighs you down and hinders you from taking action.

[Anna-Belle]

Not at all. I'm christian, but have some very liberal views that don't jive with most doctrines.

 

Pretty much I believe that God is out there, but how you worship or what name you call him isn't nearly as important as most people want to make it out to be.

 

And as I stated previously...it's more important to judge yourself...and focus on improving yourself. Judging others is for them to do for themselves...as is making improvements to make themselves better people as well.

 

Judge yourself...find the things that you need to improve upon and change...and then take action to do so. This leads you to being a better person.

 

Really as simple as that.

 

I think you would benefit from switching terms from "judging yourself" to "taking a self-inventory". Likely we could all agree on the second terminology.

[Owl]

Again, we'll likely have to agree to disagree.

 

I recognize the fact that this is one of those theories that OW/OM and MM/MW will embrace, and will likely not be embraced by BS's.

 

And Anna...while I know you were both OW and BS...I also know from our previous interactions over the years that you far more strongly associate yourself with being an OW. Given that, your equally strong support of this concept is understandable.

 

Do we have any BS's...or those who strongly consider themselves associated with that over being an AP...who agree with and/or support the concept of "split self affairs"?

 

Anyone?

[Owl]

Guilt on the other hand weighs you down and hinders you from taking action.

 

Again, I disagree.

 

Guilt is a feeling that people have when they recognize that they've taken actions that they should not have taken.

 

It can be used as an internal motivator for self-improvement.

 

Stop doing those things that make you feel guilty, and the odds are high you'll be a better person.

 

Simple enough.

[Owl]

I think you would benefit from switching terms from "judging yourself" to "taking a self-inventory". Likely we could all agree on the second terminology.

 

But that's the whole point...using terminology to make yourself feel better about your actions is precisely what I don't like about the idea of 'split self affairs".

 

If you're comfortable with the term/concept...you'll probably take no action to change/improve.

 

"Taking self-inventory" does indeed sound nicer and more politically correct.

 

I think that many people need to stop being so darned comfortable with doing things that they know they shouldn't...and learn from them and change.

 

Just because it feels better doesn't mean its the right thing to do.

[Moper]

So tell me...how does the theory of split-self lead to self-improvement?

 

How does the theory of split self lead to accepting responsibility for the affair, for the damage done to others, and help you to learn from the affair so as to not to conduct the same action again?

 

That's what I don't see in this.

 

To me...it provides an emotional "get out of jail free" card. It doesn't prompt you to reflect upon the damage you created by being unfaithful.

 

On the contrary...it makes it "OK", and it glamorizes the affair by making it seem like what you should have done all along.

 

You don't see it because you don't see how one can use logic and reason to arrive at essentially the same place you arrive at with your faith, and you don't see how people of faith can go astray as easily as people without faith. That is kind of the nature of faith. You feel your faith is an end in and of itself and you are eager to discredit logic and reason with conclusions like "it glamorizes the affair." You believe in some kind of natural law. I don't believe in natural law. But if your faith works for you I have no problem with that. I have no problem at all. I do have a bit of a problem with your refusal to understand that other people have no use for your faith. Like I said, it smacks a bit of Taliban-ism to me and I consider that inflexibility to be a serious flaw in your faith. My faith is not like that.

[Owl]

You don't see it because you don't see how one can use logic and reason to arrive at essentially the same place you arrive at with your faith, and you don't see how people of faith can go astray as easily as people without faith. That is kind of the nature of faith. You feel your faith is an end in and of itself and you are eager to discredit logic and reason with conclusions like "it glamorizes the affair." You believe in some kind of natural law. I don't believe in natural law. But if your faith works for you I have no problem with that. I have no problem at all. I do have a bit of a problem with your refusal to understand that other people have no use for your faith. Like I said, it smacks a bit of Taliban-ism to me and I consider that inflexibility to be a serious flaw in your faith. My faith is not like that.

 

OK...so you've used an interesting argument technique.

 

You ask if I'm Catholic...I answer, and now you try to make this out as though I'm a person who operates entirely based on faith without logic. That, and your multiple attempts at trying to compare my viewpoints to being like the Taliban speak far more of your operating from an emotional level, over an intellectual or logical one.

 

Please...focus on the topic of the thread, rather than try to derail the discussions with comments about me. I've been nothing but rational and reasonable this entire conversation.

 

Please...go back and re-read all my posts in this thread, and hopefully you'll see that every post I've put in here is based on logic.

 

Non-sequiter.

[Moper]

Utter hogwash. Look deeper into these words to see the foolishness in them. This belief system will leave you hopeless. Who needs that?

 

How do you know that my belief system will leave me hopeless? You don't know any such thing. Sorry, but you don't and you never will. No offense but you are staking out a position here that you really have no right to hold.

[Moper]

OK...so you've used an interesting argument technique.

 

You ask if I'm Catholic...I answer, and now you try to make this out as though I'm a person who operates entirely based on faith without logic. That, and your multiple attempts at trying to compare my viewpoints to being like the Taliban speak far more of your operating from an emotional level, over an intellectual or logical one.

 

Please...focus on the topic of the thread, rather than try to derail the discussions with comments about me. I've been nothing but rational and reasonable this entire conversation.

 

Please...go back and re-read all my posts in this thread, and hopefully you'll see that every post I've put in here is based on logic.

 

Non-sequiter.

 

Actually I didn't see your answer. I will go back and look. I am not using any ploy here Owl. I am only trying to understand you and your perspective. No reason to take this so personally. I apologize if I went over any lines but really, I don't think I have. I am only stating my opinions. I recognized your point of view as being Catholic. I didn't say it was wrong. I said I don't share that point of view. I am entitled to disagree with both you and Catholicism.

[Owl]

Actually I didn't see your answer. I will go back and look. I am not using any ploy here Owl. I am only trying to understand you and your perspective. No reason to take this so personally. I apologize if I went over any lines but really, I don't think I have. I am only stating my opinions. I recognized your point of view as being Catholic. I didn't say it was wrong. I said I don't share that point of view. I am entitled to disagree with both you and Catholicism.

 

You are indeed...but...you're flawed in thinking that my posts on this thread have been based on faith. And flawed in thinking I'm Catholic, as well.

 

You've made assumptions...drastically incorrect ones, in fact, and posted based on flawed assumptions.

 

Perhaps this might be a good point for a bit of that self-reflection I've suggested?

[Owl]

And on that note...I'm done.

 

We've discussed the original topic to death, ad nauseum. Clearly no one is changing anyone else's mind on the subject matter.

 

Not really anything left to discuss without someone trying to make it personal, rather than on topic.

 

And now to another thread.

[Moper]

Not at all. I'm christian, but have some very liberal views that don't jive with most doctrines.

 

Pretty much I believe that God is out there, but how you worship or what name you call him isn't nearly as important as most people want to make it out to be.

 

And as I stated previously...it's more important to judge yourself...and focus on improving yourself. Judging others is for them to do for themselves...as is making improvements to make themselves better people as well.

 

Judge yourself...find the things that you need to improve upon and change...and then take action to do so. This leads you to being a better person.

 

Really as simple as that.

 

I missed this, Owl. I apologize. We may just be arguing semantics but really I'm not a big fan of guilt. Guilt has its place but it is not the main focus. You can't undo the past and there is no point in letting it haunt you. I have also seen a lot of bad things that come from judging people. That is my experience. Judging actions, sure. Judging people, I really don't see the benefit, with certain obvious exceptions but those are the extremes.

[Moper]

You are indeed...but...you're flawed in thinking that my posts on this thread have been based on faith. And flawed in thinking I'm Catholic, as well.

 

You've made assumptions...drastically incorrect ones, in fact, and posted based on flawed assumptions.

 

Perhaps this might be a good point for a bit of that self-reflection I've suggested?

 

That you're promoting some kind of faith here? No, I don't think I'm wrong about that at all. So you're not Catholic. Catholics have no monopoly on guilt. They just don't apologize for it, in much the same way as you seem to be promoting it here. Owl, it works for some people. It doesn't work for others.

[Owl]

I missed this, Owl. I apologize. We may just be arguing semantics but really I'm not a big fan of guilt. Guilt has its place but it is not the main focus. You can't undo the past and there is no point in letting it haunt you. I have also seen a lot of bad things that come from judging people. That is my experience. Judging actions, sure. Judging people, I really don't see the benefit, with certain obvious exceptions but those are the extremes.

 

Last thought.

 

Have you considered that "not being a fan of guilt" may have been a contributing factor in both your decisions to have an affair, and to support a theory that allows you to view your actions and continue them "guilt free" may well be inter-related?

 

Feeling guilty means recognizing you've done something wrong. Not wanting to feel guilt when you've done something wrong means you want to continue to do those actions without acknowledging the impacts of those actions.

 

Perhaps the support of "split self" stems from the desire to avoid feeling guilt without change, rather than embracing change to start doing the right thing instead?

 

Guilt has nothing to do with faith...not in my mind at least. Nor God, for that matter.

 

And on that note...Owl, out!

Edited August 16, 2013 by Owl

[Anna-Belle]

Again, we'll likely have to agree to disagree.

 

I recognize the fact that this is one of those theories that OW/OM and MM/MW will embrace, and will likely not be embraced by BS's.

 

And Anna...while I know you were both OW and BS...I also know from our previous interactions over the years that you far more strongly associate yourself with being an OW. Given that, your equally strong support of this concept is understandable.

 

Do we have any BS's...or those who strongly consider themselves associated with that over being an AP...who agree with and/or support the concept of "split self affairs"?

 

Anyone?

 

Being an OW is more recent in time than being a BS. That's all. I've been a BS far longer than I've been the OW. My morals were the same when I was the BS as when I was the OW.

 

Emily Brown's theories about affairs actually fit well with the perspective I held as a BS. My common law spouses were serial cheaters and at the time I viewed them as sexual addicts which is one of the five affair categories Emily Brown speaks of. They were not Split Self as they had no desire to "do the right thing". They were "bad boys".

Edited August 16, 2013 by Anna-Belle

[Mr. Lucky]

We may just be arguing semantics but really I'm not a big fan of guilt. Guilt has its place but it is not the main focus. You can't undo the past and there is no point in letting it haunt you. I have also seen a lot of bad things that come from judging people. That is my experience. Judging actions, sure. Judging people, I really don't see the benefit, with certain obvious exceptions but those are the extremes.

How do you judge actions committed by people without judging the people that committed the actions?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Anna-Belle]

You don't see it because you don't see how one can use logic and reason to arrive at essentially the same place you arrive at

 

All roads lead to Rome.

 

Why fight the Split Self theory if it helps participants in EMRs deal with their issues? I don't think anyone participating in this thread promotes EMRs. We are all looking for a solution.

 

I was an OW, sure, but I was an OW under protest. I never wanted the EMR. I did my best to support my fMM during the EMR so he would deal with his issues and be able to arrive at a place where he could have one relationship only, be it the marriage or the EMR.

 

If he had let the guilt overrun him at Dday, he would have stayed married even though it would have been contradictory to his own emotional needs. Now he has instead taken responsibility for his actions and is suffering the consequences from them. He is going to counseling and is dealing with his issues instead of burying them within him like he always used to do.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Anna-Belle