Split Self Affair

[Betterthanthis13]

I still don't understand the urgent need to push a moral agenda in lieu of a theory like this. I know I have no need for a sermon from stranger on an internet forum. What I need is to figure myself out and arrive at my own conclusions as to how I wish to move forward with my life.

 

As for values, these things do vary over time and location. I do not believe in a natural law but rather in the notion that we experience things over time and create our values based on that experience.

 

I have a real, real hard time equating infidelity to rape or murder.

 

I do not claim to be an expert on Emily Brown. I stumbled upon this theory in my exploration of the subject. It sounds like something I can use in my journey. I have zero interest in justifying affairs. I have seen nothing that I would interpret as being any kind of justification or rationalization of cake eating. There may be more out there to make that claim, but it sure seems to me to be more of an emotional reach.

 

I have more than enough emotion. My problem is that I have been thinking more with emotion than with my head.

 

There is a way to use your head to make emotional decisions. It was never a choice between duty and need. Snow is not made of milk.

 

that's why I asked you those questions about how you determine right and wrong that you ignored. I am not trying to talk about morality, rather- I am trying to simplify this whole problem for you.

[Betterthanthis13]

So, again

 

Moper, when you have to determine if something is right or wrong for YOU and make a choice, how. do you normally do it?

 

Or- let's use a totally different example. Give ME some advice.

 

I am an 18 year old girl and I got knocked up. I think I might want to get an abortion but am not sure. I dont know if I think abortion is right or wrong, morally. My head tells me my life is over if I keep the baby. My emotions tell me I don't want to terminate the life inside of me.

 

How should I decide what to do?

 

Tell me the PROCESS I should go through to make this decision.

 

 

 

 

 

NOT what should I do!!!!!!! It's irrelevant which choice I make or if you believe abortion is right or wrong. We are not trying to solve the abortion debate with this exercise. P.S. there are no theories floating around about "split self" parents who have unwanted children and then neglect them to help out with justification later on.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Betterthanthis13

[rumbleseat]

Bolded is a very interesting statement, especially considering that the hypothesis here is that the MM had lost contact with his emotional self and regained it through the EMR. And here you are, Moper, saying that you have been thinking more with emotion than with your head.

 

About the same time as our EMR started my MM also lost his faith. With his faith he first lost it intellectually. It took years more for him to accept he did not believe in a God anymore emotionally.

 

With our relationship the process was the opposite. Emotionally he knew he loved me and wanted to be with me, but intellectually it took years for him to accept the changes he was going through. Among them moral stands.

 

Emily Brown has created a label (Split Self) with which we can speak of these things and intellectualize about them. Words are there to help us process what we are going through. Understanding himself gives the WS power to make choices from this understanding. I can see why society and BSs would not want the WS to be empowered and take charge of his own life. What if he chooses not to stay married? It's better to keep him in place.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is all too funny and ridiculous. It's finding a justification for poor behaviour, so that an other woman ( or man) can rationalize the fact that the person they have fallen for is attached to someone else and shows no sign of leaving for him or her.

 

They stay, month after month, year after year, but because they are "split self" , that somehow makes it okay?

 

It's nothing more than using a human foible in someone's personality to excuse them engaging in hurtful behaviour.

 

"Slit self" equates to nothing more than simple indecisiveness and sheer laziness and fear of making a decision lest there not be a soft place to fall if they make the wrong one.

 

Why someone is like this, I have no idea, but they need to grow up and act like an adult.

[Betterthanthis13]

Any advice on how to recognize one of these split-selfers, so I don't get involved with one of them to begin with? Do they show any signs I would be able to spot at the start of a relationship?

 

I like this post x 1,000,000,000

 

Thanks for the humor injection Mickey

[Owl]

No. Understanding why something happens is completely different from being approving of it.

 

I think we've stumbled upon the crux of my "issue" with the term "split-self".

 

"Split-self" doesn't explain why.

 

It doesn't say WHY someone is conflicted...only indicates that they are.

 

Which we all knew all along.

 

So...given that...I'm still very unclear on what the label "split-self" really explains? That they're conflicted between choosing the marriage, or the OW? Well no kidding....really? Who'd a thunkit???

 

I still don't understand how "split-self" is different than any other emotional affair in that regard...or in any regard?

 

If they're not conflicted...they have no emotional investment in one or the other party. If they are conflicted...then they have SOME calibre of emotional investment in both parties.

 

Where does "split-self" explain the difference...or help someone get off their butt and actually make the choice? To me...it gives them license to continue the situation forever while they "seek treatment" for "being split-self". Am I wrong with this assumption? If so, please enlighten me.

[Anna-Belle]

I think we've stumbled upon the crux of my "issue" with the term "split-self".

 

"Split-self" doesn't explain why.

 

It doesn't say WHY someone is conflicted...only indicates that they are.

 

Which we all knew all along.

 

So...given that...I'm still very unclear on what the label "split-self" really explains? That they're conflicted between choosing the marriage, or the OW? Well no kidding....really? Who'd a thunkit???

 

I still don't understand how "split-self" is different than any other emotional affair in that regard...or in any regard?

 

If they're not conflicted...they have no emotional investment in one or the other party. If they are conflicted...then they have SOME calibre of emotional investment in both parties.

 

Where does "split-self" explain the difference...or help someone get off their butt and actually make the choice? To me...it gives them license to continue the situation forever while they "seek treatment" for "being split-self". Am I wrong with this assumption? If so, please enlighten me.

 

"Split-self" does explain why and how.

 

If you want to know more about it, I'd suggest reading Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment by Emily Brown.

 

She divides affairs into five different types:

*Conflict Avoidance

*Intimacy Avoidance

*Sexual Addiction

*Split Self

*Exit

 

It's interesting reading!

[Owl]

"Split-self" does explain why and how.

 

If you want to know more about it, I'd suggest reading:

Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment by Emily Brown

 

She divides affairs into five different types:

*Conflict Avoidance

*Intimacy Avoidance

*Sexual Addiction

*Split Self

*Exit

 

It's interesting reading!

 

So what's the "reader's Digest Condensed Version" of why/how split self actually explains the why and how?

 

From what I've learned, I don't know that I believe that some 'conflict' existed prior to the affair...I believe that it was created by the affair.

 

It wasn't mystically "discovered" as a result of OW coming into MM's life...it was CREATED when she did so. He wasn't unable an emotionless/going through the motions robot in his marriage prior to the affiar...he became so as a result of the affair.

 

The OW doesn't have magic powers to suddenly grant to him the ability to feel where he couldn't before.

 

My concern with the idea of "split self" is that it removes the focus from the BIGGEST 'problem' in the mix...the affair itself.

 

The affair may even be 'just a symptom' as many claim...but even so, it's a symptom like a high grade fever or respitory distress...left untreated, it'll kill the patient long before the actual 'disease' may do so. It needs to be addressed FIRST...then, and only then can focus be turned to less urgent matters.

 

So...how does 'split self' differentiate from the emotional conflict created as a result of an EA? Is there 'proof' to support the idea that the conflict existed unnoticed and undiscovered prior to meeting the OW, and wasn't created as a result of the affair? How was that determined?

[Anna-Belle]

So what's the "reader's Digest Condensed Version" of why/how split self actually explains the why and how?

 

From what I've learned, I don't know that I believe that some 'conflict' existed prior to the affair...I believe that it was created by the affair.

 

It wasn't mystically "discovered" as a result of OW coming into MM's life...it was CREATED when she did so. He wasn't unable an emotionless/going through the motions robot in his marriage prior to the affiar...he became so as a result of the affair.

 

The OW doesn't have magic powers to suddenly grant to him the ability to feel where he couldn't before.

 

My concern with the idea of "split self" is that it removes the focus from the BIGGEST 'problem' in the mix...the affair itself.

 

The affair may even be 'just a symptom' as many claim...but even so, it's a symptom like a high grade fever or respitory distress...left untreated, it'll kill the patient long before the actual 'disease' may do so. It needs to be addressed FIRST...then, and only then can focus be turned to less urgent matters.

 

So...how does 'split self' differentiate from the emotional conflict created as a result of an EA? Is there 'proof' to support the idea that the conflict existed unnoticed and undiscovered prior to meeting the OW, and wasn't created as a result of the affair? How was that determined?

 

I can see why you are having trouble understanding the split self theory. Your view on affairs does indeed seem to be incompatible with it.

 

If you truly are interested, I can send you some material in an email. Just PM me if so.

[Owl]

I can see why you are having trouble understanding the split self theory. Your view on affairs does indeed seem to be incompatible with it.

 

If you truly are interested, I can send you some material in an email. Just PM me if so.

 

This could well explain the division in the acceptance of the "split self" theory.

 

It's hardly surprising that recent/current BS's, and BS's/Ws's who have successfully recovered their marriage, would have likely have a much different view on affairs over those who are current OW/WS's.

[Anna-Belle]

This could well explain the division in the acceptance of the "split self" theory.

 

It's hardly surprising that recent/current BS's, and BS's/Ws's who have successfully recovered their marriage, would have likely have a much different view on affairs over those who are current OW/WS's.

 

I'm not a current OW. I'm an exOW and an exBS, and I would think that it would be in every exBS' interest to make sure their marriage was as good as possible. I would leave no stone unturned, not even the split self stone.

 

Remember the marriage looked successful once before. If both spouses have not done the work necessary, the issues that lay behind the EMR the first time may pop up again.

[Mr. Lucky]

Remember the marriage looked successful once before. If both spouses have not done the work necessary, the issues that lay behind the EMR the first time may pop up again.

What you don't seem to understand is that, even if the BS has done all the work necessary and then some, infidelity can occur. Why? Because the "split self" WS (read selfish and narcissistic), rather than contribute to the health of the relationship, engages in an affair.

 

It's not conflicted, it's cowardly...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Anna-Belle]

I think anyone can claim that psychology is pseudo science. That claim is anti-intellectual and not.particularly instructive. Is Emily Brown peer reviewed?

 

Yes, Emily Brown has been peer-reviewed. She has contributed with the chapter "Split Self Affairs and Their Treatment" to Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity. This book has been co-published simultaneously as Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, Volume 4, Numbers 2/3 2005, which is a peer-reviewed journal.

 

About the book:

"This handbook provides a current review of empirical and theoretical work designed to identify successful clinical strategies for addressing infidelity."

(Todd K. Shackelford, PhD)

[anne1707]

Yes, Emily Brown has been peer-reviewed. She has contributed with the chapter "Split Self Affairs and Their Treatment" to Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity. This book has been co-published simultaneously as Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, Volume 4, Numbers 2/3 2005, which is a peer-reviewed journal.

 

About the book:

"This handbook provides a current review of empirical and theoretical work designed to identify successful clinical strategies for addressing infidelity."

(Todd K. Shackelford, PhD)

 

That review does not actually say one way or another whether Brown's work is respected or accepted as sound. It just says what she has tried to do.

[Betterthanthis13]

I can see why you are having trouble understanding the split self theory. Your view on affairs does indeed seem to be incompatible with it.

 

If you truly are interested, I can send you some material in an email. Just PM me if so.

 

I'd like this info if you dont mind- I will PM you an email address

[Betterthanthis13]

Wrong thread

[busdriver]

Is it actually, truly that difficult to understand how a conflict can exist within a person before an affair - or even independently of an affair? It that seriously something that requires a study or evidence? You've never known anyone who worked for years at a job they hated, just for security? You've never known anyone who went to church just for the social connection, not really believing in religion? You've never seen anyone struggle with the difference between where they are and where they want to be?

 

And of course the answer will be that you just soldier on and do the "right thing", or you quit. Quit the job, leave the church, leave the marriage. And that's a really great idea. But it surely isn't some mystery how someone can just ignore that conflict, because change is difficult and painful. It may take a catalyst to make one aware. And once that happens, not everybody makes the "right" choice. Sorry.

 

If your concern is the BS, how do you think a lack of introspection and reflection on my part will help my wife? Your insistence that it should never have happened - NOTED. But it did. Do I feel terrible? Yes. But at some point you look for the factors that led up to it - in you, in your upbringing, and YES, even the marriage. When people live together for a quarter-century, they affect each other, and sex/romance is not some special sphere where people exist in a vacuum. Why people make the leap to "blaming the BS" I do not know. I see it more as examining the dynamics of the marriage - US, not just her. I get the impression that people here don't think that's constructive. But it's not as simple as "YOU DID A BAD THING AND THERE IS NO WHY. IT'S JUST BAD."

 

It is possible for me to acknowledge that I did a BAD thing, but still wonder how I got there. It is possible for me to acknowledge that I did a bad thing, but still wonder how the dynamics of my marriage contributed to my decisions (YES, I am aware they were BAD decisions.) You really think examining these things is unhealthy? For pete's sake, our MC started off with this exact conversation - and my W was all over it, pointing out the passages that applied to me. She was excited to see that I cared enough to do the work of reading and talking about it.

 

Is a lack of reflection healthy then? What actual good could that possibly do my wife? Or any of you? What do you want from *your* WS? I ask this genuinely, I want to understand.

[Journee]

Is it actually, truly that difficult to understand how a conflict can exist within a person before an affair - or even independently of an affair? It that seriously something that requires a study or evidence? You've never known anyone who worked for years at a job they hated, just for security? You've never known anyone who went to church just for the social connection, not really believing in religion? You've never seen anyone struggle with the difference between where they are and where they want to be?

 

And of course the answer will be that you just soldier on and do the "right thing", or you quit. Quit the job, leave the church, leave the marriage. And that's a really great idea. But it surely isn't some mystery how someone can just ignore that conflict, because change is difficult and painful. It may take a catalyst to make one aware. And once that happens, not everybody makes the "right" choice. Sorry.

 

If your concern is the BS, how do you think a lack of introspection and reflection on my part will help my wife? Your insistence that it should never have happened - NOTED. But it did. Do I feel terrible? Yes. But at some point you look for the factors that led up to it - in you, in your upbringing, and YES, even the marriage. When people live together for a quarter-century, they affect each other, and sex/romance is not some special sphere where people exist in a vacuum. Why people make the leap to "blaming the BS" I do not know. I see it more as examining the dynamics of the marriage - US, not just her. I get the impression that people here don't think that's constructive. But it's not as simple as "YOU DID A BAD THING AND THERE IS NO WHY. IT'S JUST BAD."

 

It is possible for me to acknowledge that I did a BAD thing, but still wonder how I got there. It is possible for me to acknowledge that I did a bad thing, but still wonder how the dynamics of my marriage contributed to my decisions (YES, I am aware they were BAD decisions.) You really think examining these things is unhealthy? For pete's sake, our MC started off with this exact conversation - and my W was all over it, pointing out the passages that applied to me. She was excited to see that I cared enough to do the work of reading and talking about it.

 

Is a lack of reflection healthy then? What actual good could that possibly do my wife? Or any of you? What do you want from *your* WS? I ask this genuinely, I want to understand.

 

 

Well, I have to say that this is refreshing for me personally. My H isn't exactly a talker and stuffs his feelings like a Stromboli. I really don't think he is much into figuring out the why's. I think it's embarrassing and painful for him. He doesn't like to show chinks in his armor. Everything is always 'just fine' in his world. Even if he is dying inside. I analyze everything and have taken many of the things I have learned here to him in an effort to see if he would agree. He always just says his A was stupid and a mistake. That it meant nothing. These are horrifyingly surface when it comes down to it. There is SO much more going on inside him at any given moment that I know the pressure must had been unbearable. He bottles then shakes and explodes. I leak (lol ,now that sounds strange) I let my emotions out as I feel them. I have done tons of introspection and agonizing over this. Well, all of his A's actually. I wonder if he does? Does he try to figure out where this comes from? Is he at all introspective? If so, why is it like pulling teeth to get him to express this to me...even a little?

 

No, I do not think this is difficult to understand.

[Mr. Lucky]

Is a lack of reflection healthy then? What actual good could that possibly do my wife? Or any of you? What do you want from *your* WS? I ask this genuinely, I want to understand.

I'd guess most BS would want their WS to own what they've done without invoking some nebulous underlying factor (split self, anyone?). I know each analogy is flawed, but if someone ran over your child in a crosswalk, would you really care why? Sun was in their eyes? Late for an appointment? Two beers with lunch? Would any of those reasons make a dent in your anger and grief? I'd guess not.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that it's mostly WS in this thread promoting discussion of reasons and motives as they're the ones who have the luxury of contemplating cause. Most BS are too busy dealing with effect...

 

Mr. Lucky

[waterwoman]

Actually, yes, I would want to know why. Because if there was a valid reason and it wasn't malicious or it could be fixed (the crosswalk was unsafe in the first place and could be tweaked so it wasn't in the future), I think those are important things to know. I agree that it's not about blaming the BS at all, but just about figuring out what in the dynamic of that particular marriage was broken to begin with.

 

I don't believe that marriages that aren't broken experience affairs. Both partners don't even have to be broken, but if one partner is broken, then the marriage suffers if the dynamic puts a spotlight on that in any way shape or form. I think the why is important, especially if the couple wants to reconcile. If I want to stop my child from getting hit in the crosswalk AGAIN, then I guess I better figure out why it happened in the first place so that I can tweak it and make it safer.

 

 

No problems with that at all. I wish H would go to IC - he refuses. His FOO issues are enormous but he prefers to figure them out on his own, slowly - by the time he's on his deathbed he might have managed it

 

My problem in all this is in Moper's case I beleive (apologies if I am wrong moper) his wife isn't involved in all this analysis at all. He is deciding about their marriage totally on his own - it's his split-self that is driving the future for both of them. And once a third party is involved the decision is almost skewed against the existing relationship - theory being that the marriage emcourage the split-self to develop therefore the new relationship must by its very nature be better.

 

And I can't help thinking that we all have a split-self. All of us. Our lives are by neccessity divided into things we have to do and things we want to do. And fear drive a lot of our decisions. It isn't of it's nature a bad thing - many things we want to do would hurt us or others. I can't help wondering if 'split-self' is just another way of describing a ML crisis - the panic that arises when we start to see the long slippery slope downwards to mortality.

[Moper]

So, again

 

Moper, when you have to determine if something is right or wrong for YOU and make a choice, how. do you normally do it?

 

Or- let's use a totally different example. Give ME some advice.

 

I am an 18 year old girl and I got knocked up. I think I might want to get an abortion but am not sure. I dont know if I think abortion is right or wrong, morally. My head tells me my life is over if I keep the baby. My emotions tell me I don't want to terminate the life inside of me.

 

How should I decide what to do?

 

Tell me the PROCESS I should go through to make this decision.

 

 

 

 

 

NOT what should I do!!!!!!! It's irrelevant which choice I make or if you believe abortion is right or wrong. We are not trying to solve the abortion debate with this exercise. P.S. there are no theories floating around about "split self" parents who have unwanted children and then neglect them to help out with justification later on.

 

Experience the pain. Know that you are hurting for a reason and that you will overcome your grief in time. Find a good counselor. Try to be as good to yourself as you can be. Use the time to make as many improvements in yourself as possible but do take time to really feel the pain and grief. Pain and grief are part of being alive.

 

One has to be selfish sometimes. One is no good to anyone else if they cannot be good to their own self. We do tend to treat others the way we treat ourselves.

 

Try not to judge others; try not to judge oneself.

[Owl]

Try not to judge others; try not to judge oneself.

 

And this is truly the crux of why I cannot agree with the concept of a split-self affair. It supports precisely this attitude...which I find completely and totally wrong.

 

Try not to judge others....completely and totally agree.

 

But...we should ALWAYS judge ourselves. We should ALWAYS be striving to be better, weighing what the costs of our actions and attitudes are on others, and seeking to improve ourselves where possible.

 

Being selfish is great if the cost of that selfishness isn't paid by others. But if you are selfish at the expense of others...especially others you've sworn to love and protect...you probably SHOULD start judging yourself a little more attentively.

 

The concept of "split self" to me is like saying "the devil made me do it". It gives up ownership, control, and responsibility to some nebulous concept...and it frees the 'diagnosed person' to continue on with that same selfish behavior.

 

Not judging yourself is a hallmark trait of a narssicist.

 

If you take selfish actions that emotionally devestate those around you...such as engaging in an affair...that's not a good thing. That's not a positive. That's something you SHOULD judge yourself and learn from.

 

Not avoid accepting the responsibility and just saying "I did it for me...what's wrong with that?".

[Moper]

Judge actions, sure. Judge ourselves? Unhealthy.

 

We are just people. People are people.

[Owl]

Judge actions, sure. Judge ourselves? Unhealthy.

 

We are just people. People are people.

 

If we don't judge ourselves, we never improve.

 

I am just a person...but I should always strive to be a BETTER person.

 

I can see why the concept of split self would appeal to you.

 

Clearly this is a key difference in our mindsets and outlooks.

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

[Anna-Belle]

I am just a person...but I should always strive to be a BETTER person.

 

Of course. What on earth makes you think this goes against the split self theory?

 

I posted this today on another forum, thinking about this thread here on LS:

 

"The first thing I learnt in Al-Anon was to turn the focus towards myself and self-improvement. That's where I can make a change. Instead of being a victim to my circumstances it empowers me. Yes, I have suffered in my past but why dwell on that when I can use it as a stepping-stone for moving forward. I know I have some scars that will never go away but I play with the hand I've been dealt and make the best of it."

 

And this is true for WS, OW and BS alike.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Anna-Belle

[rumbleseat]

I'd be interested to see how many years ( often more than seven) that an other woman would continue to keep her life on hold while she waits for her "split self" married man to sort himself out. Meanwhile, she sits, day after day, hanging on his every text, video chat or email, no matter how few and far between. That must be why he never leaves his wife to come be with her, why they never actually meet in person, why she keep waiting, and waiting and waiting....