Not every OW is 'waiting'

[MissBee]

If a human is involved than you have someone to blame don't you. Chew on that for a while.

 

Thanks for clarifying?

[KathyM]

Hmm, you may hear a different story once you begin counseling couples. I have a friend who blamed porn for the demise of her M and sex life with her H. I tried to show her it was a problem within her H but she still blamed the porn industry.

I'm not denying that porn can damage a marriage. Porn can be addictive, it rewires the brain, and a man that is engaging in it can compromise his relationship because of that addiction. This is really off topic to your original discussion.

[macy]

I think it's a convenient myth for some to believe the OW is a passive person who just lies around all day waiting for the MM to call. After all, of all she has to do is paint her nails and shave her legs, then of course she will outcompete the harried BW whose days are filled with picking up,after kids, washing skid marks out of his underwear, packing lunches, scrubbing floors, etc so that she barely has time to drag a comb through her hair. Of course she will be more inclined to want to hear about his day, to perform "monkey sex" (whatever that is) with him, to make him feel valued! So of course he will get an ego boost from being around such a creature, who exists for his pleasure alone!

 

And so when it turns out that OW are able professionals, excelling at respectable jobs, with active social lives, rich community lives, well-balanced kids and well-kept homes *and* they look great too, and are awesome lovers.... Well, that's a little threatening, so they need to be rubbished somehow.

 

Are you kidding me! Well all I can say to that reasoning is... Let the REALITY of what this man is really like come to light! That comes from "washing the skid marks out of his underwear", cleaning his messes up, learning all those little annoying daily habits that he knowingly hides from her, or she doesn't see, paying bills, wiping noses, and all the other normal stressful life situations that happen when you have a real marriage and relationship, not a relationship that is based on secret hourly visits, texting, emails, phone chats, and great "monkey sex". No one is perfect. You find out how perfectly imperfect someone really is when you get married and spend every waking moment together! The reality is much different than the fantasy. I wonder how many women get a sad smack of reality when they find the married man they were engaging in an affair with, who left his wife to run away with her, is indeed not all he's cracked up to be. I bet there are a lot of OMG moments. Likewise, how many men leave their wives run away with version 2.0 and think the same thing?! I bet more than like to admit because we are all flawed in one way or another.

[Clemenza]

Your active participation damaged the marriage. Without your active participation, there would be no affair. Both affair partners' actions damage the marriage.

 

My point was that she still broke her promises and vows to her husband, that you laid forth, even without my participation. She was pining after me and pursuing me, without me pursuing back. Doesn't that mean she already went outside her marriage contract and did some damage? Or are you saying there's no damage as long as her feelings were unrequited?

 

I'm certain my eventual feelings for her made things worse and more complicated, but I wasn't the cause of anything. Well, I was 50% the cause of an A. I had very little, if anything, to do with the damage of a marriage. There was damage before she met me, or she wouldn't have strayed by developing feelings for someone else. I wasn't a predator who forced her to have an A with me.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Clemenza

[White Flower]

I'm not denying that porn can damage a marriage. Porn can be addictive, it rewires the brain, and a man that is engaging in it can compromise his relationship because of that addiction.

But it's not really porn that damages the M; it's the man in it.

 

This is really off topic to your original discussion.

 

And I thank you for bringing us back OT!

[White Flower]

Are you kidding me! Well all I can say to that reasoning is... Let the REALITY of what this man is really like come to light! That comes from "washing the skid marks out of his underwear", cleaning his messes up, learning all those little annoying daily habits that he knowingly hides from her, or she doesn't see, paying bills, wiping noses, and all the other normal stressful life situations that happen when you have a real marriage and relationship, not a relationship that is based on secret hourly visits, texting, emails, phone chats, and great "monkey sex". No one is perfect. You find out how perfectly imperfect someone really is when you get married and spend every waking moment together! The reality is much different than the fantasy. I wonder how many women get a sad smack of reality when they find the married man they were engaging in an affair with, who left his wife to run away with her, is indeed not all he's cracked up to be. I bet there are a lot of OMG moments. Likewise, how many men leave their wives run away with version 2.0 and think the same thing?! I bet more than like to admit because we are all flawed in one way or another.

 

Not all of us have only seen the prestigious side to our xMM/MM/STBDMan/etc. I've cared for xMM when he was sick when we lived together for a short time, I've done his laundry, etc., etc., and saw the bad stuff. If you love someone you love all of them. But when you have to give tough love you wait and see if they can't stand up. This is not a pining wait and see its just reassessing on an ongoing basis.

[White Flower]

Also, to avoid confusion or comlexity, just answer the question to yourself and here:

 

Apparently the poor guy (your MM) does not love you at all, or care about you, (forgetting any words he said or any ambivalent behaviors that lead to nothing), so if he does not love you why/what you are waiting for? Can you let him go? Can you move on?

 

Mount you should really read up on your literary fallacies.

[White Flower]

My point was that she still broke her promises and vows to her husband, that you laid forth, even without my participation. She was pining after me and pursuing me, without me pursuing back. Doesn't that mean she already went outside her marriage contract and did some damage? Or are you saying there's no damage as long as her feelings were unrequited?

 

I'm certain my eventual feelings for her made things worse and more complicated, but I wasn't the cause of anything. Well, I was 50% the cause of an A. I had very little, if anything, to do with the damage of a marriage. There was damage before she met me, or she wouldn't have strayed by developing feelings for someone else. I wasn't a predator who forced her to have an A with me.

 

IME there is always damage done in a M before either partner ever thinks about stepping out.

[KathyM]

My point was that she still broke her promises and vows to her husband, that you laid forth, even without my participation. She was pining after me and pursuing me, without me pursuing back. Doesn't that mean she already went outside her marriage contract and did some damage? Or are you saying there's no damage as long as her feelings were unrequited?

 

I'm certain my eventual feelings for her made things worse and more complicated, but I wasn't the cause of anything. Well, I was 50% the cause of an A. I had very little, if anything, to do with the damage of a marriage. There was damage before she met me, or she wouldn't have strayed by developing feelings for someone else. I wasn't a predator who forced her to have an A with me.

In your case, you were a participant, who further damaged/destroyed the marriage. I'm not saying the WS is not at fault. I'm saying both the WS and the AP damage and destroy the relationship. If you had shut this MW down, there would be no affair. You can take responsibility for your role, and she can take it for her role in the destruction to the marriage.

[KathyM]

But it's not really porn that damages the M; it's the man in it.

Porn is addictive, just like cocaine is addictive. Sure, the man is at fault for buying and using the cocaine, but the cocaine itself keeps the man addicted. One might use the analogy of a drug dealer and an addict to compare to a WS and an AP. The addict made the choice to use in the first place, but the drug dealer keeps the destructive supply coming. Without the supply, there is no addiction.

[White Flower]

Exactly, true real love relationship requires no time to figure it out.

 

I think White Flower has to admit and acknowledge that she has zero power or MM has any attachment towards her so that MM is really making any motion or choices that resulting in legitimately being with her.

 

Remember, I am talking about result here, not some the MM opens a separate a banking account, the MM is drafting divorce paper, the MM is talking to a lawyer...etc, you need to have the result otherwise all actions are still leading to zero result while OWs are expecting 100% of MM.

 

Plus, it is common sense, for people all over the world, men use action to prove/show their love to their lover/women.

I believe the major difference between OP and nonOP is that OP get that we will never have, nor should ever want power over another human being. If I wanted to bark orders I could but it just isn't my style. I'm a teacher and nurturer, and nurture those I love. I'd rather see progress the loving way.

[MissBee]

Asking for what you want and expecting someone who tells you they love you to treat you in a loving fashion is not about having power over them its about having your own personal power. Ditto walking away if they cant or wont give you what you need in a R. No one said anything about barking. It is interesting how you twist every common sense thing people say to you into something else. Why do you do that?

 

Nurturing dysfunction is enabling the dysfunction. Again, not really love or loving.

 

I sometimes think the longer one is in an A, the more one accepts certain things and rationalizes it to make it seem like it makes sense. It is something I have observed here that many OW of 5 + years, their views of love and relationships seem very contrary to what most people think. Perhaps just like the longer you're with an abuser the more abuse becomes normalized and the harder it is for the abused to know what is acceptable from what's not, is similar to how one's mind changes the longer one is an OW...or perhaps there is a correlation between the kinds of pre-existing belief/behavior patterns which allow someone to be an OW for a very long time (example: issues with codependency and enabling).

 

In any case: the idea that those in the world who aren't in affairs and are in normal relationships go around barking orders but OW do not is silly.... Some OW throw hissy fits, tantrums, force ddays and turn bunny boilers when they don't get their way...so let's be real here. OPs are no more perfect at relationships than other people and don't hold more enlightened views...please.

 

To the OW who ended up with the MP because you drew the line and also didn't allow the A to drag on for years and years and years, I can respect that a bit more. For those in the As for upwards of 5 years, with a fence-sitter, who scoff at the idea of demanding more as "barking"...well...enjoy.

 

WF: when you stop posting about MM is when I will believe you're not waiting. I am not being snarky. This is true. It's like a friend of mine who kept saying she was over her ex, yet he was always the topic of conversation: what and who he was doing, what she thought of his behavior, how much she didn't want him. She was still very much invested and emotionally waiting. When she did really move on was when I didn't hear another word about him...to the point I had to actually ask "Hey, what's up with Tim" and she said she didn't know, shrugged and that was that.

[JustJoe]

I like White Flower a lot, a whole lot, and go back with her for a couple of years. WF, I think that the person you are trying to convince the most, is yourself. You have been involved with this drama even before I first knew your situation, back when you and Jack used to talk about your affair and your relationship with MM, and I have to say that you seem to still be in the same place with regards to him and he still seems to be in the same place with regards to you and his wife. I can't see that anything has really changed. You say that you are not waiting, when everything you have said points to the opposite. All of your projects are keeping you busy, your "dating" I would bet, have not been very serious or sincere, and it all points to the unspoken truth, that you ARE, indeed waiting for him, and waiting for him to get his sh*t together.

[MissBee]

I like White Flower a lot, a whole lot, and go back with her for a couple of years. WF, I think that the person you are trying to convince the most, is yourself. You have been involved with this drama even before I first knew your situation, back when you and Jack used to talk about your affair and your relationship with MM, and I have to say that you seem to still be in the same place with regards to him and he still seems to be in the same place with regards to you and his wife. I can't see that anything has really changed. You say that you are not waiting, when everything you have said points to the opposite. All of your projects are keeping you busy, your "dating" I would bet, have not been very serious or sincere, and it all points to the unspoken truth, that you ARE, indeed waiting for him, and waiting for him to get his sh*t together.

 

Perhaps coming from you it won't be as easily discredited as other people being haters or bitter or what have you.

[JustJoe]

Wow....no wonder.

 

To cut to the chase, the impact of A has been a poison or toxicant that buries in OW's mind/soul/body, the longer the worst. I am sure it dramatically influenced the concious and logic thoughts of each OW.

 

Again, every OW should apply "Now or Never" statment towards MM, if he wants to be with you, he will DO THAT.

 

Otherwise he does not love you in any single way. OW has to suck it up, digest and WALK AWAY.

This is fundamentally untrue. I was the OM in an affair, myself. My MW divorced her husband and is married to yours truly, and we have one child and another on the way. But this was not , in any way, an instant fix , and sometimes it takes years to untangle the marriage/affair imbroglio.. I don't morally judge WF BECAUSE of her affair, I am more concerned about her well-being post affair.

[JustJoe]

People in affairs are like pretty much any other folks, some good, some bad, some in-between. And a LOT of marriage were not made in heaven, but further south.

[jlola]

[quote=

 

And so when it turns out that OW are able professionals, excelling at respectable jobs, with active social lives, rich community lives, well-balanced kids and well-kept homes *and* they look great too, and are awesome lovers.... Well, that's a little threatening, so they need to be rubbished somehow.

'

 

 

WOW!! A woman who has it all and beautiful to boot should have lots of "SINGLE" men to choose from. Married men are not even be on the radar of beautiful women(as you described) with their act together because they have no time for such drama and bull. They are self aware and not spending time with a man who has no self awareness.

 

One willing to date married men does not seem like the cream of the crop. Excuses such as . "There are not enough great "single"guys out there" or "you can't help who you fall on love with" are lame! You control what you feed.

 

There are great single guys out there, just that most great single men are PICKY!!!!

So if you are the whole package and a bag of chips,why is it the best choice you have is sharing a MM who goes home to his wife every night ? No matter what he is saying to you he is still not with you. actions speak louder than words.

[SidLyon]

To jlola, what makes you think I am helping him do anything you state? I am the one demanding he do right by her and stop the façade! She won't even demand that for herself because that is her comfort zone. Oh well, that's for her to deal with.

 

As for those archaic states with AoA laws, well I would never grace those states with my presence.

 

How strange that you obviously do make demand of him, ie that he treat his wife right. Yet you yourself have clearly not treated her right. You even go on to denigrate her yourself straight after saying you make demands on him about it!

 

Honestly White flower you do seem defensive and I'm unsure of your purpose in starting this thread anyway.

 

Is it to tell us that you're not waiting for him when you are so obviously focused on waiting for him to meet your demands. Or is it asking us to make comparisons between affair love and marital love or were these questions just rhetorical? After all you seem to be castigating posters for being off topic when they try to discuss them.

 

I agree with posters who have said that the MM in this situation is utterly dreadful and that your own words have depicted any woman who is either his BW or his (waiting or non-waiting, current or former) OW as being totally pitiable.

[JustJoe]

Didn't we already know that when Married women are involved in affairs, they tend to leave husbands much more often than Married men leave marriage.

 

And we also already know the fact is that, if Married men do not decide to leave marriage to be with OW within certain months, or 1~2 years, down the road he almost will never leave marriage going towards OWs.

And how do we "know" this? And who is "we"? I know from my own experience, not because some "expert" or "study" said it was true. Most studies aren't worth the paper they are printed on, IMO.

[White Flower]

I like White Flower a lot, a whole lot, and go back with her for a couple of years. WF, I think that the person you are trying to convince the most, is yourself. You have been involved with this drama even before I first knew your situation, back when you and Jack used to talk about your affair and your relationship with MM, and I have to say that you seem to still be in the same place with regards to him and he still seems to be in the same place with regards to you and his wife. I can't see that anything has really changed. You say that you are not waiting, when everything you have said points to the opposite. All of your projects are keeping you busy, your "dating" I would bet, have not been very serious or sincere, and it all points to the unspoken truth, that you ARE, indeed waiting for him, and waiting for him to get his sh*t together.

 

 

I don't know if you've read the whole thread and I've been careful to not put TMI out there so for now I'll just refer you to post #49 in this thread. It should explain a lot until I can fill you in properly. The point of the thread was that not all OP sit and pine for the MP. They get on with their life and won't take their love back unless it is on their terms, something you know about.

Edited June 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Personal comments redacted

[WakingUp]

Good grief.

 

I have read this thread (well skimmed parts of it that were the same old saying the same old) with disbelief.

 

Whiteflower, you rock girl, and good on you for standing up for what you think.

 

And what I think is this... no, we are not sitting around painting our nails waiting for a MM to get off his a** and do something. I also have an interesting active life, with lots of friends and opportunities to do stuff. I will be OK with or without him. It is not some sad little cave I live in.

 

And neither does Whiteflower, whose opinions and posts I respect.

 

So as far as I am concerned, I have just read pages of stereotyped rubbish from resentful wives who believe "marriage is sacred" despite the fact their husbands apparently don't agree.

 

Get over it girls. The facts are the facts. And OK if he is home with you, congratulations. I am sure his mind is elsewhere. His other parts often are.

 

This thread has made me angry. How dare you attack WF? All she has done is be honest.

[cocorico]

Exactly, true real love relationship requires no time to figure it out.

 

.

 

I really disagree with this!

 

I know that in my own R, it took me a long time to figure out that I loved him, that he loved me, that being together full-time with anyone might be an option for me, that being together full-time with him might be an option for both of us, and that we could make it work of we both wanted to.

 

And for him there was a parallel process of figuring out that his kids were being harmed more by his remaining M than by leaving, that people would support him of he left, that his kids would be OK with our new family, and that he deserved to be happy as much as the next person.

 

It took time because we did it properly. We didn't just rush into things and make decisions we might have regretted later. We made sure we knew what we were doing, that we'd examined it from all sides and weighed consequences carefully. We're both happy with the decisions we took back then, and the process we used to take them. It might not work for everyone to think things through first and then act, but it worked for us, and works for many others. I would not knock it without trying it.

[White Flower]

'

 

 

 

So if you are the whole package and a bag of chips,why is it the best choice you have is sharing a MM who goes home to his wife every night ? No matter what he is saying to you he is still not with you. actions speak louder than words.

He goes home all right, to the spare guest room where we talk for hours. When he first got back in contact with me he wanted to prove how it wasn't all hearts and flowers when he went back, that after 24 hours he chose to sleep in the guest room, that she began complaining instantly that they are back to living like siblings already. But hey, she has her fake smile at all the clubs she follows him around at. It wouldn't be worth it to me, the façade, but whatever floats your boat. The retainer wasn't cheap either, and it won't feel like hearts and flowers when she finds out about that. Oh, and she has decided not to force another phone number change on my guy's cell because, as she says, "you'll just give her the new number anyway". I feel sorry for her. Btw, I asked for the nightly chats to end because they made me tired and were a disruption to my life but if I ever felt like having proof he wasn't cuddling with her all night, as you seem to want me to believe, all I need do I tell him I'm down for a call. Hope this satisfies your need to show me how life is for all recovering affair victims.

 

One more thing, as I stated earlier, I have become quite accustomed to the single life and I haven't figured out yet how to work my guy into my home. I'm not sure I can share a bed anymore! But I'm sure you'd rather think I lay there each night hoping and praying for my Prince Charming to arrive. Keep dreaming.

[White Flower]

BUT HE DOES GO HOME. He has not left.

 

Haha, you must really value your home life, even if it involves a sick man. I'd rather see him healed before I take him in. I think any smart person would "wait" for that to happen.

[whichwayisup]

"Waited desperately"???

 

If you read her posts, she hasn't waited, desperately or otherwise. She has been busy living her life to the full, and the 19 or so DDays that happened, happened to the MM and his BW.

 

True, but those 19 D-days have affected WF and her MM as well. She's been put through the wringer because of it.

 

Now, each person in this triangle are responsible for their own behaviour and how they handle it. It really comes down to, whoever wants out for good will leave and move on, though that hasn't happened yet and it seems it won't, so this dance will continue on.