Not every OW is 'waiting'

[White Flower]

Reality does not always sink into those with no true insight to the self. Many use others thoughts and validation to warp their senses and reality does not fit into this scheme. Too much protesting equals deceiving oneself. Plain and simple, if your exMM cared for you like you wish to believe, he would be by your side at this very moment, as you type. After all your projection and protest, perhaps you ARE subconsciously waiting for the exMM. This is what I see; please do not shoot the messenger. No one knows the true dynamics about what goes on in another's marriage.

 

Just as no one knows the true dynamics of anyone's R.

[awkward]

This is an example of an OW who believes her relationship is special and her MM is special when at the end of the day he is just another MM who won't leave his BS.

 

He has helped two women endure almost 20 d-days. It is not love. Also, those who support this delusion are not doing the OP any favors. If you are a friend to her, and especially if you are a friend in real life, you should not encourage her to pine after this MM. He is not leaving his marriage. Not even if he starts seeing two counselors. This man specifically, is not leaving. And OP will continue to be there for him "not waiting" even if he takes his wife on another vacation. Nothing seems to be a dealbreaker here.

[White Flower]

the irony here is quite depressing...

 

you use your post to degenerate the ways betrayed spouses and married couples feel for each other ( thinly veiled though it may be), yet what of this "love" your married man has for you?

 

He expects you to wait and wait for him , regardless of how it makes you feel. You protest that you have a full and happy life...yet he is still in it. He is not a persona non gratta in your life...he is very much in your heart and mind.

 

every time he contacts you, every time he keps the flame alive, even just a little bit, he's hurting you

 

how is that "love"...he hurts you, he knows he's hurting you, yet he is too selfish to walk away and tell you it's over between you two...after how many years he refuses to make a clean break with you? To really let you go, once and for all?

 

This is "love"?

You must not be reading my posts, but you are definitely reading into them.

 

Hearing that a lover longs for you and still loves you cannot hurt you. I suppose it is I who hurts him when I say I have standards, lets wait and see and reassess down the road a bit. It's healthy but if you want to call it pain be my guest.

[Silly_Girl]

OP, even though you apparently are not 'with him', have you foreclosed being open to attraction to others during this time? I ask because you titled the thread as 'not every OW is waiting'.

 

I recall, back during my 20's, the 'waiting' issue did, in my case, to some degree foreclose being open to others, perhaps causing me to pass over otherwise healthy relations. I've experimented more recently with the emotional components, after having learned a lot in MC, and can clearly visualize the emotional change and how it impacts the view of and feelings about other potentials. Interesting stuff.

 

Anyway, hope everything works out.

 

This is valid. During a break-up I tried dating. In fact it was that that meant exMM finally made the leap to move out and end the R with his wife. But it wasn't genuine dating. I was having fun but there was always an MM-shaped hole in my heart. No one had a chance and so everything was very superficial. I am not able to open my mind to new people if I still love someone else.

 

WF, if you can, all very well, but I think it's rare. So I'm not arguing with you and saying you are waiting, but I think perhaps you underestimate the impact of your guy's continued existence in your life, heart and head.

[White Flower]

This is an example of an OW who believes her relationship is special and her MM is special when at the end of the day he is just another MM who won't leave his BS.

 

He has helped two women endure almost 20 d-days. It is not love. Also, those who support this delusion are not doing the OP any favors. If you are a friend to her, and especially if you are a friend in real life, you should not encourage her to pine after this MM. He is not leaving his marriage. Not even if he starts seeing two counselors. This man specifically, is not leaving. And OP will continue to be there for him "not waiting" even if he takes his wife on another vacation. Nothing seems to be a dealbreaker here.

 

He usually calls me on vacations and says he is having a sucky time. FB photos show a man who has to get drunk in order to "have fun" and a W who has to get drunk in order to fit in. He doesn't touch her in photos but she is always leaning into him as if her presence is wanted. She later complains that he doesn't look happy and they live like room mates and so on. The vacations don't bother me one bit knowing what I know. And yes, he's discussed this with his IC in front of me.

 

Contrary to popular belief (around here) there are men who actually struggle with issues and they aren't going to be resolved on your time table or mine. You can whip someone into shape lickity split if you like but you won't get any sincerity out of it.

[ComingInHot]

whitflower wrote, " Also, many BS seem to blame their M and their vows on the reason they love their jerks. Just admit you love them with your hearts! Nobody is going to judge you for that. Wait a minute, maybe they will!"

 

And wrote, " I get it now. It would appear that many BWs here believe they have God on their side and believe God will save their Ms for them. Good luck with that."

 

The above, ... speaking of "reading into..."

 

And the top quote, "judging...?"

 

Whiteflower, are you happy? Are you having an "off" day? This topic seems set up for contention which of course you will get but even me having once been a BW, I am Still happy, glass half full, caring, empathetic, always trying to understand others, quick w/a smile, uplifting of others etc...

That's why I KINDLY asked you if Your questions, Pertaining to Your topic were rhetorical. I was concerned you may be upset w/my response because it didn't read from your prior writings in the opening thread that you Wanted or were open to a different or opposing response*

 

I do these respect full things because I Care about your feelings here and what you and others are Really looking for in responses. It also inhibits me from "reading into" & "judging"*

 

Remember to smile today White flower.

Edited June 24, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[MissBee]

This is valid. During a break-up I tried dating. In fact it was that that meant exMM finally made the leap to move out and end the R with his wife. But it wasn't genuine dating. I was having fun but there was always an MM-shaped hole in my heart. No one had a chance and so everything was very superficial. I am not able to open my mind to new people if I still love someone else.

 

WF, if you can, all very well, but I think it's rare. So I'm not arguing with you and saying you are waiting, but I think perhaps you underestimate the impact of your guy's continued existence in your life, heart and head.

 

Wonderful post.

 

This is very true.

 

I get so sick of waiting being painted as this very literal thing, i.e. you have no life, no friends, no job, never have fun, you are simply keeping a vigil with a picture of MM, some candles, a few cats, crying into your wine and watching the clock and your cell, or worst yet, land line . Inevitably, the person in question will point out all they are doing, to counteract this image, to show they aren't waiting. Yet pointing out what you're doing doesn't necessarily mean you aren't waiting, as waiting doesn't preclude dating, volunteering, traveling, earning a degree etc. I did all that while waiting on a single ex of mine to get his act together.

 

Waiting can be very much emotional and is less likely, if ever, literal pausing your life and being on hold. I went through that with a single "break." If you don't have a clean break where you've decided to end things, you'll be emotionally waiting, no matter what external activities you do, sex with others and dating. Once you have hope and are looking for "improvements" so you can continue a R even later on, it will affect you more than you know and is a form of waiting. It's hard to not wait when you are attached and invested in someone. Essentially, even if you make a stand to not date them now, you're waiting for a later and hope for a later, and WF, it is clear you do hope he gets his act together so you can be with him. That may or may not change...but how you (plural) end things with a romantic interest shapes how you go forward, to moving on or simply having the facade of moving on but are still, in your heart, emotionally unavailable to others, as you are still hoping for a reconciliation. Being physically out dating and being emotionally available and open for love are sooooo different. The dating world is full of hurt people, rebounding people, people hung up on someone else but hoping to past time or magically fall in love even though their heart is elsewhere.

Edited June 16, 2013 by MissBee

[White Flower]

You always answer with a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with what was posted.

I disagree. I responded accordingly.

I don't see anyone projecting anything on you. Its common knowledge that A or any sort of triangular relationship is unhealthy.

Common knowledge or common belief among your peers. Follow the stats, then reassess what common knowledge is.

Ditto any R where someone professes to love but then acts in unloving ways as your MM does. Same imo for professing duty but then only selectively living up to that.

 

You may not be physically involved with him, but you are certainly giving him a lot of headspace in your life. Still in the triangle. Not to mention that his continued interaction with you impedes his ability to resolve his M one way or the other. As long as the triangle stands everyone is mired in dysfunction.

 

You are hurting him as much as hes hurting you. If that's love to you then youre both doing a bang up job at loving.

Him hurting me, me hurting him, that has nothing to do with this thread and is between us anyway.

[White Flower]

I think you're dead wrong on this. You cant whip anyone into shape and get anything. But, you can demand that someone with issues detrimental to your relationship fix them. If they love you enough, they will step up to the plate and to the hard work required. If they don't, then you have the information you need to move ahead with your own life free of them and their issues.

Exactly, and he knows what my demands are.

I think this is the crucial thing you either don't understand or are afraid to risk asking for because you already know he doesn't love you enough.

 

I get that because I was there once myself. However, I'm surprised you don't get it because of the hundreds of stories here where women do demand better from the men they are with and get it.

 

Perhaps when you think you are worth it he will too.

You lost me here. You're obviously picking and choosing from my posts and not reading (or accepting) the whole thing. I'm afraid you're falling into the pressure of believing all OW are the same. We are not.

[whichwayisup]

Shame on you for the late night coffee! (Though I'm always tempted to drink coffee late too)

 

Yes, there has been pain which is the reason I don't fall back into bed with him or spend any real time in person. If we did it would so be back on so I stay away.

 

My H caused me pain as well, but when he showed me a true desire to work things out I forgave and stayed. And I stayed until I realized our R was never going to grow or get healthier. With xMM I've seen some personal growth on his end and if I see more, coupled with the love we still proclaim to have, then I think there could be a chance for us.

 

Didn't fall asleep until 4am!

 

Yes, having sex with him during all his indecisiveness will really mess you up.

 

Do you feel emotionally detached from him though? How often is he on your mind each day?

 

I get that you feel you're not waiting for him, your mind feels that way, but your emotions show the opposite, at least that's how it's coming off through your words.

 

You know yourself best, just shield your heart and put yourself first. He certainly seems to be putting himself first.

[MissBee]

I disagree. I responded accordingly.

 

Common knowledge or common belief among your peers. Follow the stats, then reassess what common knowledge is.

 

Him hurting me, me hurting him, that has nothing to do with this thread and is between us anyway.

 

I would agree with Blondie, but am happy to see the overwhelming professional opinions which would state that triangulated relationships are in fact healthy.

 

I guess this is where I throw the towel in in certain conversations.

 

As an OW...I was in a situation despite it being messed up. I get this and most OW here and elsewhere don't actually want an A or think it is a healthy alternative, they acknowledge it is usually very damaging to all or at least one person and there are healthier ways to love and be loved....yet they are in the situation so understandably find it hard to just walk away. But I will never understand the vehement defense of As as an enterprise as something healthy and good and frankly, besides the OW on LS who are embedded in long term, bizarre As, with indecisive men, no others seem to argue that there is a whole academic/scientific community supporting the notion that As are healthy.

 

The sum total point of most of what I've read on As is that, they may be useful temporarily and are essentially a bandaid, but are not by their structure healthy and meant to be simply an alternative relationship choice, healthy for the long term. If you have "stats" and literature saying otherwise, I'd really want to take a look, because I've genuinely not seen it. Even the one split self theory thing which gets thrown around does not at all attempt to say an affair is healthy, but simply explains why this unhealthy dynamic exists.

[White Flower]

WF, I'm curious... what would you consider to be waiting?

 

Thanks for your question LFH.

 

I wanted to make the statement that not all OW are sitting around and pining for their long-awaited knight in shining armor. Not all of us need or want "validation" or "a man of our own". I've had a man of my own, for three decades, and I'll tell you that being single is a wonderful thing! I may even prefer it. And with this experience under my belt I know that to go back into a full time committed R it better be worth it! It can't be mediocre and we can't fall into past patterns or behaviors that one or the other fell into before. I demand better from myself and for myself and I won't be taking my lover back under any condition that doesn't suit me so while my love is unconditional my standards for Rs is not. And it appears to me that many posters here believe that we will take any MM that offers us love and validation no matter what and I call Bull***t on that.

 

So while I listen to what is going on with him and reassess whether he is healthy enough to share a life with me I am not pining for him, leading him on, throwing myself at him, or "waiting for my happy ever after".

[jlola]

First off,OW did not just meet MM and fell in love. What you feed grows! You both chose to feed the relationship. Obviously both do not respect the sanctity of marriage. If they did,the relationship would not be fed and to the level they fell "in love". You do not just "fall in love".

 

I have boundaries. So if I meet someone who I know has a substance abuse problem,gambling problem,temper,some pshychological disorder,married, or much younger than I , I will not FEED that relationship because I understand what can potentially happen.

 

As for noone owning anyone that is true But there is much to be said about character and integrity. If a man or woman is so miserable with their marriage,get out!!

 

To me it equates a person who has a business partner. For some reason he feels his business partner is not doing enough(many times t s the other way around). So he seeks out another "business partner" but does this secretly. He promises the new business partner he will replace the old one with her. So they secretly plot behind the partner's back. Cowards, both of them. The "potential replacement" stands by and watches his lie,manipulate, and steal from the old partner. But as long as she is not the one actually doing all the crap,she feels she is innocent of any wrong doing. He can leave the partnership and leave with half. But he doesn't want that. He wants it ALL!! And he has every excuse in the world why he is such a peach for "staying" with the business he hates and is being taken advantage of. WaHHHHHHH!!

 

 

 

What may look like an innocent bystander is not. To knowingly help someone destroy someone else' trust,self esteem, love,family is wrong. That is why the law sometimes also gives a penalty to someone who helped a person who did a crime, by being an accomplice. Simply hiding the person can mean you are an accomplice. But WW/WM rarely make that connection.

 

It's all fun and games till THEY get hurt. Then they are crying about getting hurt. When you walk into a situation and the person SHOWS you what they are capable of, you cannot complain when you see what cowards they are.

[KathyM]

So, if the MM and the OW promised to love each other and forsake all others, which many MM and OW do promise to each other, then that is OK? And more so if the MM does actually forsake the BW, whatever form that takes?

 

There you go, WF, you have official permission to consider your R blessed and acceptable

The MM has not promised the OW to forsake all others, since he is married to his wife. He still is in the marriage. He made that promise to his wife, not the OW.

[White Flower]

I would agree with Blondie, but am happy to see the overwhelming professional opinions which would state that triangulated relationships are in fact healthy.

 

I guess this is where I throw the towel in in certain conversations.

 

As an OW...I was in a situation despite it being messed up. I get this and most OW here and elsewhere don't actually want an A or think it is a healthy alternative, they acknowledge it is usually very damaging to all or at least one person and there are healthier ways to love and be loved....yet they are in the situation so understandably find it hard to just walk away. But I will never understand the vehement defense of As as an enterprise as something healthy and good and frankly, besides the OW on LS who are embedded in long term, bizarre As, with indecisive men, no others seem to argue that there is a whole academic/scientific community supporting the notion that As are healthy.

 

The sum total point of most of what I've read on As is that, they may be useful temporarily and are essentially a bandaid, but are not by their structure healthy and meant to be simply an alternative relationship choice, healthy for the long term. If you have "stats" and literature saying otherwise, I'd really want to take a look, because I've genuinely not seen it. Even the one split self theory thing which gets thrown around does not at all attempt to say an affair is healthy, but simply explains why this unhealthy dynamic exists.

I wasn't speaking to stats supporting As. I was speaking to D stats supporting the idea that more than half of Ms are unhealthy, and showing that many MP look for something healthier even if they go about it in an unhealthy way. In a perfect world they would D first but the overwhelming stats (D stats and A stats) show that they don't.

[White Flower]

It seems you are extremely unhappy on the inside. It is easier to project superficial content, then to work on becoming a better person, a kind soul. Empathy does not seem to be your strong point. It does baffle me when one comes on a board and posts thoughts, then argue the majority who believe there may be a problem. To each his own they do say.

 

"I do not post all day on any site, yet there are sites I visit. I left LS for a couple years because I was too busy to post. Same with other sites. Look at the stats if you have the time. I don't. I even stepped down as mod on a site due to the time constraints I have. Today I have a bit of time, so I am posting today." :rolleyes:

 

What makes you feel you are so special, that people care and wish to know your internet browsing and history...bizzare. IMHO.

 

Nothing "bizarre" about it, I happen to know a thing or two about good posting and preemptive writing. You don't know me so you can't really call me out but whatever floats your boat. Care to stay OT?

 

Now that was a rhetorical question.

[White Flower]

The MM has not promised the OW to forsake all others, since he is married to his wife. He still is in the marriage. He made that promise to his wife, not the OW.

 

Oh really? Have you been listening in on our conversations? How do you know what he has or has not promised me?

 

He is still in the M but not for long. He is filling out D papers and has retained a lawyer. Being M still does not facilitate a promise, hence the A rate and D rate, lol. You'll notice this more once you start your practice.

[KathyM]

Are you dreaming? You think someone BELONGS to you?

The husband and wife PROMISE their love and faithfulness to each other on their wedding day. They both make that promise to each other. They both promise their love and fidelity to each other. While I understand that love comes and goes during a marriage, and it has its ups and downs, the expectation of fidelity is still there, as is the expectation that the spouse will not be giving his love to someone outside of the marriage.

[Clemenza]

Your question is why is love a wife has for her husband considered acceptable, but not love an OW has for the MM. It's because the two people in the marriage promised to love each other and forsake all others. An OW's love undermines, damages, and destroys the marriage. It takes what was promised to another. What belongs to another. Your love for your MM is undermining and destroying the love the MM has for his wife whom he promised it to. Until he breaks that marital bond and ends his marriage, his love and fidelity is promised to his wife. Why is this so difficult to understand? The OW's love for the MM undermines/damages/destroys a marriage. It does incredible harm to the woman who was promised this man's love and faithfulness.

 

The conversation may have shifted after this was posted, but I feel compelled to comment on what's in bold.

 

I disagree that the OW's love for the MM does all those things to a marriage. I think it's more that the MM's love for the OW does these things. Someone could be in love with a married person all they want, but the marriage vows aren't compromised until that love is reciprocated. Actually, the vows are compromised when the MM/MW loves another person, even if it isn't mutual. If I loved my xMW, but she didn't love me, there wouldn't be an issue with their marriage. If she loved me, and I didn't love her back, there WOULD be an issue with their marriage.

 

I think your statement gives way too much power to the OW/OM, and their ability to destroy a marriage. Most of the power lies in the hands of the married person.

[KathyM]

Oh really? Have you been listening in on our conversations? How do you know what he has or has not promised me?

 

He is still in the M but not for long. He is filling out D papers and has retained a lawyer. Being M still does not facilitate a promise, hence the A rate and D rate, lol. You'll notice this more once you start your practice.

You asked about the love a wife has for a husband, and why that is considered acceptable and the love an OW has for a MM is not. If you are saying that your MM is now filing for divorce and has contacted a lawyer, then obviously he is preparing to leave the marriage. Most MM do not plan to leave the marriage when they start an affair. The vast majority of MM do not end up with the OW after their divorce. I'm answering your original question. If you plan on being with your MM and he has contacted an attorney to file divorce papers, then why are you dating other men?

[KathyM]

I disagree that the OW's love for the MM does all those things to a marriage. I think it's more that the MM's love for the OW does these things.

It's both the MM and the OW that cause harm/damage/destruction to a marriage. It takes two. Both are responsible for the harm/damage/destruction of the marriage.

[whichwayisup]

I wanted to make the statement that not all OW are sitting around and pining for their long-awaited knight in shining armor.

 

I agree, but there are many OW and OM who are, unfortunately. It's one thing to wait and still live your (general you) life, put yourself first, it's another to cancel plans as soon as the MM/MW calls and wants to get together.

[macy]

He usually calls me on vacations and says he is having a sucky time. FB photos show a man who has to get drunk in order to "have fun" and a W who has to get drunk in order to fit in. He doesn't touch her in photos but she is always leaning into him as if her presence is wanted. She later complains that he doesn't look happy and they live like room mates and so on. The vacations don't bother me one bit knowing what I know. And yes, he's discussed this with his IC in front of me.

He sounds like a real catch!

Contrary to popular belief (around here) there are men who actually struggle with issues and they aren't going to be resolved on your time table or mine. You can whip someone into shape lickity split if you like but you won't get any sincerity out of it.

Yes, there are men who struggle with real issues. A big issue would be cheating on your wife. That "issue" comes from having deep rooted problems internally too lengthy and vast to post. Very little to do with his wife/marriage! As a now divorced BW I wonder why on God's green earth would anyone want a man that is willing to do that?! Total turn off in my eyes. Not judging at all. I get the "things just happened" "didn't mean to fall in love, he just was so lovely I couldn't help it" stuff. I think it would (for lack of a better word) suck to be the OW. I guess it works for some and they see it as a win-win. I'm trying hard to understand. I really am. What's there to gain if he leaves his wife?! Clearly he's a piece of work (being nice here) and how confident would I feel in our relationship if he did "choose" me. Big ole' dysfunctional mess if you ask me.

[Clemenza]

It's both the MM and the OW that cause harm/damage/destruction to a marriage. It takes two. Both are responsible for the harm/damage/destruction of the marriage.

 

The OW didn't enter the marriage contract, the MM and W did. I guess the OW could be guilty of fanning the flames, but the core of what you seem to be talking about lies with the MM in this case. Once MM developed those types of feelings for someone other than his W, he started damaging the marriage (according to your premise). The OW's feelings about the MM are largely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

In my case, I was the OM. The MW developed feelings for me before I showed any interest in her. She was trying very hard to get to know me, because she had feelings for me, for a good 2 or 3 months before we did anything. I was resistant during that time. As the OM, I definitely exasperated the problems in her M by eventually deciding to take part in an A. I own that. But just by the fact that she had feelings for me before our PA started, and worked hard to get to know me, showed that her M was already being damaged on some level. With or without my active participation.

[White Flower]

To jlola, what makes you think I am helping him do anything you state? I am the one demanding he do right by her and stop the façade! She won't even demand that for herself because that is her comfort zone. Oh well, that's for her to deal with.

 

As for those archaic states with AoA laws, well I would never grace those states with my presence.