Not every OW is 'waiting'

[Pierre]

On a further note, I don't think my xH was capable of deeper more intimate love whereas I know xMM is. I suspected his potential in this area from the beginning and sure enough it was there. Once you know something so precious as intimacy exists it feels like a malformation in the universe that it isn't nurtured or continuing. One hates to see stagnancy when beauty should be there.

 

So you are waiting?

 

I suspect the BW is also waiting.

 

What is the difference?

[Got it]

I agree that it is her decision. I also agree that she is a wonderful Lady. I also have never said that I was any kind of expert on relationships. But I DO have an opinion, and would appreciate the courtesy of being allowed to express it.

 

Sure. Just like WF has that right and without being told she is wrong ad nausem. Especially when she doesn't ask for the opinion to begin with.

[Owl]

And who are week to monday morning quarter her decisions and her life? I don't see her requesting it? And I say this with all gentleness but I definitely believe that neither you nor I am really in a place to claim experts on always making healthy life choices, are we?

 

At the end of the day WF is where she wants to be. She is a smart lady who knows the facts of her situation. If she is choosing to wait, think, or give any consideration to him then that is her choice to make. At the end of the day, she will be the one to own her life choices and should be left to it. While I may not agree with everything she or others do, I will defer to them to make, especially at this point in the discussion, the best choices for themselves.

 

By starting this thread, claiming she's not waiting...she invited input from others who's viewpoints may well disagree.

 

Sorry if you don't feel that's appropriate...but that's for the mods to determine and police...

[KathyM]

That was a very long way to say you just don't believe people can change IMHO. AFAIK there is no personality disorder diagnosed but as I demonstrated there have been real changes and I wouldn't be talking to him if there weren't.

 

The above post has me thinking you just ought to put a sign on your door that says sorry, if you're 60+ we have no hope for you. It's age discrimination in my opinion.

On the contrary, I know people CAN change in many cases if they are motivated enough. I have counseled clients for a year now as an intern, and have seen many positive changes in them. But what I'm saying is that personality disorders are not like other psychological disorders that are more receptive to change. Personality disorders are engrained. They are pervasive. They are very resistant to change. Many psychologists won't even take on clients who have personality disorders because they know how difficult it is to accomplish any real change with such clients. I would not turn anyone away who sought counseling, as long as they were actually working on their issues and progress was being made. Why do you keep making your responses about me, rather than the issue of whether this particular man is worth waiting for? Deflecting is not productive to the conversation. I think you've waited so long for this man and have invested so many years of your life in waiting for him, that you are not willing to let it go at this point, even though the risk is so great that he cannot be the relationship partner that you hope for. But you've already gambled many years of your life on this man. It's like a gambler in Vegas that has gambled almost all of his life savings away, but he still can't stop, because that would mean that the money is lost for good, so he gambles even more money away, hoping to recoup that which he has already lost. I just don't see any prize in this man that is worth gambling your life away waiting for him. Both you and his wife should leave his sorry ass. He doesn't deserve any woman. Why do women not value themselves and put up with men like this?

[White Flower]

I agree with you , Owl, and have said so to WF numerous times. Her refusal to see this man for what and who he is, (although I'm sure influenced by her love) is what keeps her from truly committing to any other potential relationships. WF will wait for this guy for years, but won't give other men (who might be better ) a chance. It is her decision, granted, but I'm not sure that it is a healthy way to live.

 

Oh but I have. Read on...

[White Flower]

No...actually I think Kathy has a valid point to consider.

 

We've all heard of the stereotypical bachelor man who lives in his momma's basement...and how they rarely develop into excellent marital partners and fathers.

 

That's because personality tends to develop and remain static after a certain point in one's life.

 

We're pretty much who we're going to be by the time we're 30.

 

He's who he's going to be at 65+, for darn sure. He's had several DECADES of life to set him in his ways...DECADES of SUCCESSFULLY conducting infidelity as a means to "get what he wants".

 

COULD he change? Maybe.

 

IS HE LIKELY TO? Certainly not.

 

It's a bad bet...and honestly some wishful (almost self-deluding) thinking on your part to believe that it's very likely at all...in fact, I'd agree with Kathy's observation that it's highly unlikely at this point in his life.

 

Sorry if that seems harsh...but she's raising some excellent points to consider.

 

First you say maybe, then you say certainly not. That's not logical.

 

You should watch this movie called The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. The moral of the story is that seniors can and do change. I work in the senior community and they wholeheartedly embrace this idea. I wouldn't be with anyone who wasn't pliable and open-minded, my divorce is proof of that.

[JustJoe]

Sure. Just like WF has that right and without being told she is wrong ad nausem. Especially when she doesn't ask for the opinion to begin with.

Got it, I value your opinion, and feel that you have every right to express it. But perhaps my opinion of WF's ability to defend her position is greater than yours. Who appointed you her spokesperson? Didn't you just say how smart she is? Why do you feel that you can better express her feelings than she, herself, can? So Sorry for the T/J , Harlow, I'll be going now.

[whichwayisup]

That point was brought in early in this thread, hence my apprehension, hence my willingness to speak with his IC. I like the idea of him having his own place.

 

WF, he HAS to live and be on his own for a while. This unhealthy dynamic that has been going on and on for years has to stop. He needs to learn to live alone and learn from past mistakes and grow, change a bit more before you two start a life together. And obviously, he's need to be officially divorced.

[JustJoe]

First you say maybe, then you say certainly not. That's not logical.

 

You should watch this movie called The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. The moral of the story is that seniors can and do change. I work in the senior community and they wholeheartedly embrace this idea. I wouldn't be with anyone who wasn't pliable and open-minded, my divorce is proof of that.

That is a really good movie. My wife and I rented it last winter, and liked it a lot.

[2sunny]

Has he informed his wife that he plans to leave her and move in with you?

 

If so, what was her response?

 

If so, when will he file for divorce?

[Owl]

First you say maybe, then you say certainly not. That's not logical.

 

I said:

COULD he change? Maybe.

 

IS HE LIKELY TO? Certainly not.

 

 

It's quite clear, and quite logical.

 

You should watch this movie called The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. The moral of the story is that seniors can and do change. I work in the senior community and they wholeheartedly embrace this idea. I wouldn't be with anyone who wasn't pliable and open-minded, my divorce is proof of that.

 

I haven't seen the movie...will have to look at it. At the end of the day...it's a movie. Ergo...entertainment, not absolutely reality.

 

I've spent a significant amount of time working with seniors in living assistance centers...some embrace change, some do not. Many of those who like the idea, still find themselves unable to actually change.

 

And what you're talking about here isn't just a change of HABIT...you're talking about change of mindset, morals, lifestyle...all of which has been a successful mechanism for him (meaning, he was rewarded in some fashion...such as having you in his life as a result of his choice to cheat, for example).

 

I agree with Kathy's viewpoint, and stand by what I've said.

 

And at the end of the day, (and to get this back on topic)...you're still waiting for him to change so that you can accept him into your life and home. Which really is what I'm trying to point out to you.

 

He's where he's chosen to be....and you're right where you've chosen to be.

[MissBee]

 

I agree with Kathy's viewpoint, and stand by what I've said.

 

And at the end of the day, (and to get this back on topic)...you're still waiting for him to change so that you can accept him into your life and home. Which really is what I'm trying to point out to you.

 

He's where he's chosen to be....[B]and you're right where you've chosen to be.[/b]

 

I concur.

 

And it is what it is, but what is probably throwing people off is that the title of the thread is "Not every OW is "waiting" yet the thread is all about waiting to see MM change so you can be together.

 

I don't think WF will agree with the opinions that MM is set in his ways and the chance of change seems slim, but it is indeed her decision to wait to see what happens. I think all that can happen is that we on LS "wait" to see the updates in the coming months, next year or the next 5 years to see if there are any significant changes. I would be the first to admit I was wrong about my intuition if there are updates showing something different from all the other updates which are the same...but if I had to bet, I too think gambling he won't has better odds.

[jlola]

I am beginning to think WF and Mr. 19 Ddays are meant to be.

[Pierre]

I am beginning to think WF and Mr. 19 Ddays are meant to be.

 

I agree!

 

Waiting out 19 d-days has got to mean something.

 

There may be a happy ending to this one.

[White Flower]

That is a really good movie. My wife and I rented it last winter, and liked it a lot.

 

It's an awesome movie and it depicts the kind of people I work with every day. Many seniors can change if they have the desire to do so. Psychologist Daniel Levinson developed the Life Stages model and states that in the Late Adult stage (age 60-death) priorities change in this period. It is a time of wrapping up unfinished goals and setting out new goals for the remainder of our active life, as well as planning for our death. This is a stage where a person forms a broader perspective about himself and the world around him as he constructs a new life structure, his last. Levinson's model as well as the movie dispel the stereotype that old folks get stuck in their ways. Some do if they don't take the time to reflect on their lives before and during this phase but not all.

[2sunny]

It's an awesome movie and it depicts the kind of people I work with every day. Many seniors can change if they have the desire to do so. Psychologist Daniel Levinson developed the Life Stages model and states that in the Late Adult stage (age 60-death) priorities change in this period. It is a time of wrapping up unfinished goals and setting out new goals for the remainder of our active life, as well as planning for our death. This is a stage where a person forms a broader perspective about himself and the world around him as he constructs a new life structure, his last. Levinson's model as well as the movie dispel the stereotype that old folks get stuck in their ways. Some do if they don't take the time to reflect on their lives before and during this phase but not all.

 

I wonder what percentage of folks actually apply this "change" formula to their later years?

 

Any studies done on what percentage take action to invoke change?

[White Flower]

I'm a realist, and while I know people can change if they are motivated enough, and I have worked with clients who have made positive changes in their life, I would be naïve not to acknowledge that personality disorders and some patterns learned very early on in childhood are very resistant to change.

He has not been diagnosed with a personality disorder by either of his counselors. (He switched due to insurance change, thank goodness).

The fact that this man has had a very engrained pattern of behavior that has lasted for over 40 years does not bode well for being a psychologically healthy relationship partner. You say he has been in counseling for many years, but still has a way to go before he is at a healthy state enough to be in an exclusive relationship with you makes me think that this man is too much of a gamble to build a healthy relationship with. Some patterns are very engrained and resistant to change.

You must not have read where I explained how he has indeed changed, but he isn't quite there yet. A plant grows in increments, not 10 feet in one day because I say so.

Why would you waste your life on a scoundrel? He may have dropped the four other OW to comply with your wishes, but he's still a cheater. He still is. I don't think it's wise to gamble on a cheater.

Psychologists today aren't using the word cheater, or haven't you heard yet? xMM's IC said that is the old school way of thinking and the psychological community is now calling it "seeking your happiness". He is now encouraging xMM to recognize this and challenging him to consider what he values most; duty and companionate love or happiness and consummate love.

 

Words like cheater and scoundrel are not used in the psychological circle, not professionally anyway.

What I have found IRL is that men who change for the purpose of winning over a woman usually go back to the same bad habits as soon as they get the woman, or soon thereafter.

Are you preaching to the concerted? This is why I am going to sit in on xMM's next session. I want to know how he or they are planning on preventing any old patterns from recurring, even though I know xMM hasn't had any OOW since before me with the proof that I found.

Do you really want to be a watchdog for this man for the rest of your life? The parent who keeps the immature boy in line?

I want nothing in common with BW. Besides being from the same race I don't see that happening.

I don't think it's wise to invest your life in such a man.

I don't either, not the one you are depicting. Not the one you assume my xMM is.

There are healthy men that don't need fixing who are relationship material without years of therapy required to fix them. I would never advise a client to marry or partner with a man who has a personality disorder or some other major psychological issue. Serial cheaters tend to be very Narcissistic. They have a sense of entitlement. They are very self centered and always put their needs ahead of others. That is not a man to build a relationship with. Perhaps he has made some progress after years of therapy, but not nearly enough. As I said, personality disorders, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is very engrained. If a man that was 65+ came into my office for counseling to work on narcissistic traits, I would know I have my work cut out for me, and that the prognosis for change under such circumstances, would not be good. That's the reality. Of course I would help him on building empathy and relationship skills, but I wouldn't kid myself into thinking that, after all this time, he is likely to change. Personality disorders are very resistant to change. Many psychologists, including my professors, realize this and don't even take on such clients.

You are presuming that all SC (and fSC) are all the same. xMM is not NPD. Both ICs said he demonstrated overwhelming compassion and guilt to have NPD. His biggest problem is not knowing how to stop beating a dead horse, nor does his W. wanna talk CODA? I'll buy that.

[White Flower]

So you are waiting?

 

I suspect the BW is also waiting.

 

What is the difference?

 

Who cares what the difference is or if there is one? I don't.

[White Flower]

I said:

 

 

It's quite clear, and quite logical.

 

 

 

I haven't seen the movie...will have to look at it. At the end of the day...it's a movie. Ergo...entertainment, not absolutely reality.

 

I've spent a significant amount of time working with seniors in living assistance centers...some embrace change, some do not. Many of those who like the idea, still find themselves unable to actually change.

 

And what you're talking about here isn't just a change of HABIT...you're talking about change of mindset, morals, lifestyle...all of which has been a successful mechanism for him (meaning, he was rewarded in some fashion...such as having you in his life as a result of his choice to cheat, for example).

 

I agree with Kathy's viewpoint, and stand by what I've said.

 

And at the end of the day, (and to get this back on topic)...you're still waiting for him to change so that you can accept him into your life and home. Which really is what I'm trying to point out to you.

 

He's where he's chosen to be....and you're right where you've chosen to be.

And you know what Owl? As a SW of 5 years now it is AWESOME to have choices!

 

And you just don't know about the changes I've seen in him. I wouldn't be talking to him otherwise. My intuition is strong, and I'll be ok either way. I'm healthy and resilient.

[White Flower]

I wonder what percentage of folks actually apply this "change" formula to their later years?

 

Any studies done on what percentage take action to invoke change?

 

I don't know, maybe you should google it.

[White Flower]

It is really funny and quite odd to me that certain posters are willing to believe the bad stuff (19 Ddays) but not the good stuff (positive change and growth). I guess people believe what they want. Be my guest, but don't offer me advice if you're stuck in your own negative belief system.

[White Flower]

 

Are you preaching to the concerted?

 

Darn, I meant converted.

[2sunny]

It would be easier to be thrilled for you WF if he were moving out on his own.

 

Is there a reason why he's not willing to be on his own and date you?

[JustJoe]

I wonder what percentage of folks actually apply this "change" formula to their later years?

 

Any studies done on what percentage take action to invoke change?

My Uncle Jack and Aunt Gloria are models of people who embrace change in their later years.

[JustJoe]

Darn, I meant converted.

Are you sure you didn't mean , contorted?