Men talking about women

[verhrzn]

He is different than me because I just don't give a f**k. I say it no matter what. Why should I feel ashamed about being a man and having desires?

 

Because I did not consent to being part of your desires. You can have your desires, fine, but why is it necessary for you to SAY THEM? Why do you HAVE to verbalize them? What part of "being a man" means I have to hear you voice your desires out loud?

[xxoo]

Well, I'm kind of a bull in a china shop some times, so when I say no, people usually listen.

 

Say no to what?

 

You can say no to advances, but you can't force someone see your professional assets if they are focusing on your physical assets. Saying "no" won't change the other person's focus.

[joystickd]

Because I did not consent to being part of your desires. You can have your desires, fine, but why is it necessary for you to SAY THEM? Why do you HAVE to verbalize them? What part of "being a man" means I have to hear you voice your desires out loud?

I hear people say N***er but I don't make a big thing out of not saying it. It's their choice and they themselves have to deal with the consequences. My only problem with some of the female responses is that they come off more as "Why can't men be more like women?". The crazy thing is a woman agreed with me about it too.

[ThaWholigan]

No, you don't have to not talk about it at all. You just need to make sure the women in the environment you're in are okay with it. What's so wrong with discussing it over PM with female posters who don't mind? Or finding a message board dedicated to that sort of thing?

 

Again, why do you feel put out by it?? And you don't KNOW you didn't run into it previously... it's possible you DID make some women uncomfortable but they never said because they didn't want to "rock the boat." Maybe women here just have the freedom to express their true feelings a little more openly, just like you felt more freedom to objectify women online.

 

I don't like message boards dedicated to it primarily because I find them to be too sleazy half the time . I think Wrongplanet was the only place I ever got to be truly descriptive about bodies. I don't know why, but given that a lot of the female regulars there were often outspoken autistic women, I expected more backlash there.

 

I often keep my thoughts to myself when it comes to admiring women, up until recently I didn't even do it in my songs (I thought it would be corny). I felt put out because I feel as though I'm being grouped in with the sleazy lot, and I'm not sleazy . I always keep my words private, or with my friends, but I feel like there is no happy medium for me. It is either sleazy or not. Never an artistic description, or a poetic interpretation of a woman's physical expression - whether she is conventionally attractive or not.

 

I give women more credit than that, I'm not an intimidating man - I expect a woman to TELL me if I'm offending/annoying her, and they often do (usually for reasons not to do with sexuality). I did have a pleasant PM exchange with a member here though who was appreciative of my way with words regarding a woman's body (specifically hers ). So it is not exactly a backlash that I'm personally experiencing - rather a slightly eye-opening weird experience.

 

What sparked the thread wasn't actually anything I said personally although there were latent motivations there - it was something DY said to SJC8000 about when he described his date with a woman who was "bigger than him, but was pretty and had a great rack", which sparked furore and inevitably "men don't understand" and the ever-lovable P-word "PORN!!!!" It was a passing comment and I don't think he even thought about it having a negative impact. I've made passing comments privately in this manner and not thought anything of it. Is that wrong? Or should we even moderate our choice of words around our own company?

 

I'm glad I made this thread, it's given me food for thought. Carving out an appropriate vocal outlet for my admiration without repressing it will be a nice little challenge.

[joystickd]

Um... men ARE going around saying that. I've heard horrible and awful stories of street harassment. I've heard awful stories of women getting harassed on buses, on trains, at the gym, at the grocery store, at the library, at work, at a party.... on and freaking on.

 

I debated whether or not to share this story.

 

Again, if men aren't verbalizing their objectification, then I see no issue here. What exactly are you claiming we should allow men to do?

You complain about generalizing yet in this post that is what you are doing.

[verhrzn]

I hear people say N***er but I don't make a big thing out of not saying it. It's their choice and they themselves have to deal with the consequences. My only problem with some of the female responses is that they come off more as "Why can't men be more like women?". The crazy thing is a woman agreed with me about it too.

 

Yeah, a woman who completely missed the point agreed with you. Since no where do I say that men need to stop being men. Unless you think commenting on a woman's body out loud is somehow an innate characteristic of men. Since I know several men who DON'T make comments out loud about women's bodies, they are either not men, or you are full of it.

 

That's nice that you didn't get offended. But some people WOULD, and some people would probably beat them up or yell at them or get offended, etc. Now if you don't CARE about the feelings of women.... you feel entitled to say whatever you want, regardless of how those words make someone else feel.... well then go ahead, spew your desires. Just don't be surprised if some women then consider you an a**hole and an entitled jerk. Because that is exactly the definition of entitlement.

[verhrzn]

I don't like message boards dedicated to it primarily because I find them to be too sleazy half the time . I think Wrongplanet was the only place I ever got to be truly descriptive about bodies. I don't know why, but given that a lot of the female regulars there were often outspoken autistic women, I expected more backlash there.

 

I often keep my thoughts to myself when it comes to admiring women, up until recently I didn't even do it in my songs (I thought it would be corny). I felt put out because I feel as though I'm being grouped in with the sleazy lot, and I'm not sleazy . I always keep my words private, or with my friends, but I feel like there is no happy medium for me. It is either sleazy or not. Never an artistic description, or a poetic interpretation of a woman's physical expression - whether she is conventionally attractive or not.

 

It's poetic or artistic when it's put in an artistic or poetic form. You waxing philosophical about a woman's body in a song is artistic (can be sleezy, but is probably artistic.) But... you aren't putting it into a poem here. This is not really a place FOR artistic endeavors. This is a dating community.

 

Again, you're not wrong to express it, you just need to choose your venue and your mode of expression appropriately. "Know your audience," as they say.

 

What sparked the thread wasn't actually anything I said personally although there were latent motivations there - it was something DY said to SJC8000 about when he described his date with a woman who was "bigger than him, but was pretty and had a great rack", which sparked furore and inevitably "men don't understand" and the ever-lovable P-word "PORN!!!!" It was a passing comment and I don't think he even thought about it having a negative impact. I've made passing comments privately in this manner and not thought anything of it. Is that wrong? Or should we even moderate our choice of words around our own company?

 

But do you kind of see her point? He probably DIDN'T think about it... that's the idea. That men judging women's bodies and making comments about them is SO innocuous that men don't even think about women's feelings before spewing opinions about them. I wouldn't go so far as to claim PORN, but maybe some empathy, some consideration, some respect that the girl he went on the date with wouldn't appreciate her body being described and judged in such a public way?

 

For me, once again, it's all about consent, and context. If you made comments about it, and no one objected or acted uncomfortable, then all right, you know that is an accepted mode of talk.

 

It's like any other topic.... you can discuss it in depth some places, discuss it in passing other places, and should stay far away from it in other places. I mean hasn't anyone told you to discuss discuss politics at family events?

[verhrzn]

You complain about generalizing yet in this post that is what you are doing.

 

Um..... you're the one claiming ALL men act a certain way, and all men should GET to act a certain way.

 

How about actually addressing my points? Why is it necessary to verbalize your desires? Why does your need to verbalize override someone else's need to NOT hear such comments verbalized?

[Mme. Chaucer]

My position:

 

People don't have to monitor what they say because it might hurt somebody else's feelings. I think it's wrong to expect that.

 

(I'm not talking about hate speech, which is a different matter.)

 

It is good for them to know, however, the effects of what they say. So if we're bothered, I think it's best all 'round if we speak up.

 

Also, we can judge a person by what they say, or post. If it's always about "nice rack," or whatever, we might tend to dismiss that poster as an assclown. Or not.

[Lonely Ronin]

Say no to what?

 

You can say no to advances, but you can't force someone see your professional assets if they are focusing on your physical assets. Saying "no" won't change the other person's focus.

 

well, The few times I have had to deal with this, the woman in question was always very physical/direct. It was never a question what she was paying attention to. So maybe it was just easier for me to put a stop to attention I don't want.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Why does your need to verbalize override someone else's need to NOT hear such comments verbalized?

 

Freedom of speech overrides.

[Quiet Storm]

That is making Woman A responsible for Woman B's actions. So, because Woman A liked being hit in the face during sex, I should expect to be hit in the face during sex??

 

Yes, SOME women like it. Key word: SOME. What I'm saying is men should find out BEFORE they do it if the woman in front of them likes it. If she doesn't, he shouldn't do it. Clear as that.

 

I'm not saying women are responsible for each others actions. I can just understand why men are confused about it. I try to see if from a man's perspective. In a perfect world, men could read all of our subtle signals and interpret them perfectly. In real life it doesn't always work out that way.

[verhrzn]

Freedom of speech overrides.

 

Freedom of speech means the government cannot arrest you. But there is NOT freedom of speech between individual citizens. If you tell everyone I'm a big old slutty McSluterison, I can sue you for libel. If my boss makes sexual comments about me, I can report him for harassment. Freedom of speech is a political right, not a social right.

[ThaWholigan]

It's poetic or artistic when it's put in an artistic or poetic form. You waxing philosophical about a woman's body in a song is artistic (can be sleezy, but is probably artistic.) But... you aren't putting it into a poem here. This is not really a place FOR artistic endeavors. This is a dating community.

 

Again, you're not wrong to express it, you just need to choose your venue and your mode of expression appropriately. "Know your audience," as they say.

 

It hasn't been common that I talk about women's bodies here, probably a handful of posts in the physical threads. Ironically, it is in my songs that I have never felt comfortable talking about women. I went to great pains not to do it, even when I was persuaded. I went the other route. Even now I find it difficult. Perhaps because it is only as I have gotten older have I become more comfortable verbalizing that I even have sexual thoughts about women at all!

 

 

 

 

But do you kind of see her point? He probably DIDN'T think about it... that's the idea. That men judging women's bodies and making comments about them is SO innocuous that men don't even think about women's feelings before spewing opinions about them. I wouldn't go so far as to claim PORN, but maybe some empathy, some consideration, some respect that the girl he went on the date with wouldn't appreciate her body being described and judged in such a public way?

 

For me, once again, it's all about consent, and context. If you made comments about it, and no one objected or acted uncomfortable, then all right, you know that is an accepted mode of talk.

 

I saw her point (and I did think in the back of my mind, that someone - specifically her - would comment on it). It just annoyed me at the time that she was so........vehement and critical - and then to mention porn which probably had jack all to do with it. That motivated the thread. I'm obviously not as annoyed about the issue as I was last night.

 

It's like any other topic.... you can discuss it in depth some places, discuss it in passing other places, and should stay far away from it in other places. I mean hasn't anyone told you to discuss discuss politics at family events?

 

I always piss people off when it comes to politics - because I hate politicians in general .

[verhrzn]

I'm not saying women are responsible for each others actions. I can just understand why men are confused about it. I try to see if from a man's perspective. In a perfect world, men could read all of our subtle signals and interpret them perfectly. In real life it doesn't always work out that way.

 

Because it'd be too horrible for them to just NOT say sexual things out loud before, ya know, asking?

 

Again, the only way men could be confused is if they assumed all women were the same, and all wanted to be treated the exact same way. Just because I can make a gay joke to one of my male friends does not mean I can make a gay joke to a complete stranger. This is just simple social skills. What is tough to understand about that??

[xxoo]

well, The few times I have had to deal with this, the woman in question was always very physical/direct. It was never a question what she was paying attention to. So maybe it was just easier for me to put a stop to attention I don't want.

 

It isn't just the unwanted attention. It is being dismissed or undervalued outside your appearance that is detrimental to women.

[Lonely Ronin]

Freedom of speech means the government cannot arrest you. But there is NOT freedom of speech between individual citizens. If you tell everyone I'm a big old slutty McSluterison, I can sue you for libel. If my boss makes sexual comments about me, I can report him for harassment. Freedom of speech is a political right, not a social right.

 

Yes, but a guy could say just about anything he wanted about another woman, as long as it's not at work. and you personally can't do anything about it. And from your posting history, this seems like what you have a bigger problem with.

[ThaWholigan]

My position:

 

People don't have to monitor what they say because it might hurt somebody else's feelings. I think it's wrong to expect that.

 

(I'm not talking about hate speech, which is a different matter.)

 

It is good for them to know, however, the effects of what they say. So if we're bothered, I think it's best all 'round if we speak up.

 

Also, we can judge a person by what they say, or post. If it's always about "nice rack," or whatever, we might tend to dismiss that poster as an assclown. Or not.

 

This particular poster I was referring to who made the "rack" comment has never given any indication that he is an assclown in all honesty, so I was surprised at the nature of his being criticized in the manner he was.

[Lonely Ronin]

It is being dismissed or undervalued outside your appearance that is detrimental to women.

 

That's down to her perception though don't you think, short of him saying something to confirm it.

[joystickd]

Because it'd be too horrible for them to just NOT say sexual things out loud before, ya know, asking?

 

Again, the only way men could be confused is if they assumed all women were the same, and all wanted to be treated the exact same way. Just because I can make a gay joke to one of my male friends does not mean I can make a gay joke to a complete stranger. This is just simple social skills. What is tough to understand about that??

That comparison is different. I will say it like this. If I go out and meet a woman and say hey that ass is looking right and we have sex later on because of it. The thing is now if I am a man meeting women how is that not going to have some type of bearing on how I interact with the next women.

 

I will even say it like this as a woman you meet a man and he is into you. You make a comment about wanting to go to Neiman Marcus. He takes you and you go on shopping sprees a lot and you don't have sex. Wouldn't if this happened enough it would be safe to assume all men are this way?

 

As humans if we do something enough with the same result it becomes something we know we can do and have some success with it. Simple social skill is different than male/female interaction with some intended purpose.

[verhrzn]

Yes, but a guy could say just about anything he wanted about another woman, as long as it's not at work. and you personally can't do anything about it. And from your posting history, this seems like what you have a bigger problem with.

 

I'm not speaking about me personally. I am speaking from a female perspective, which I have heard a lot of from friends, acquaintances, coworkers, on blogs, etc.

 

You couldn't do anything about it DEPENDING on how insulting it got. There is a certain threshold where verbal harassment becomes actual harassment, which someone can get arrested for. Threats, extreme sexual language, etc., CAN get you arrested. But being able to say whatever you want to another person is still NOT a protected form of dialogue under the Constitution. And just because something isn't criminal, doesn't mean it should be socially acceptable.

 

I ask ONCE AGAIN, why is a guy's right to say something sexual about a woman's body more important than her right to feel comfortable and safe?? Why is it too much to ask for men to keep their comments to themselves in a public setting?

[xxoo]

That's down to her perception though don't you think, short of him saying something to confirm it.

 

 

 

i'm talking about professional implications. Being disregarded professionally is not only about her perceptions, and it does happen.

[verhrzn]

That comparison is different. I will say it like this. If I go out and meet a woman and say hey that ass is looking right and we have sex later on because of it. The thing is now if I am a man meeting women how is that not going to have some type of bearing on how I interact with the next women.

 

I will even say it like this as a woman you meet a man and he is into you. You make a comment about wanting to go to Neiman Marcus. He takes you and you go on shopping sprees a lot and you don't have sex. Wouldn't if this happened enough it would be safe to assume all men are this way?

 

As humans if we do something enough with the same result it becomes something we know we can do and have some success with it. Simple social skill is different than male/female interaction with some intended purpose.

 

Um.... NO. Because it is WRONG to assume that all people are the same just because they belonged to the same gender.

 

It shouldn't have any bearing because you should learn that women are individuals who like different things.

 

By your logic, one woman expressing discomfort at being cat-called means ALL women hate being cat-called. But you know that isn't true. So why are you supposing the other extreme is true??

 

What is so radical about just not assuming what someone else likes, and keeping personalized comments (and I think sex is damn personal) to your damn self?

[joystickd]

Because it'd be too horrible for them to just NOT say sexual things out loud before, ya know, asking?

 

Again, the only way men could be confused is if they assumed all women were the same, and all wanted to be treated the exact same way. Just because I can make a gay joke to one of my male friends does not mean I can make a gay joke to a complete stranger. This is just simple social skills. What is tough to understand about that??

As a man I will say women are confusing sometimes. You have to kind of analyze if their actions are interest or just their normal behavior. I will put it this way. You are a man with no experience with women. You go out and meet women a few times that smile and touch your shoulder. You all exchange numbers and date a few times. What conclusion would you draw from that? Most of these exchanges seem to be a total lack of understanding about the other gender. I am understanding of women wanting to be seen more than just looks and a body or sexual objects but at the same time women have to have some understanding of the male perspective. I am not asking you to think or act like a man but to have some understanding.

 

I will say in order to change something you do have to have some level of understanding about it.

[joystickd]

Um.... NO. Because it is WRONG to assume that all people are the same just because they belonged to the same gender.

 

It shouldn't have any bearing because you should learn that women are individuals who like different things.

 

By your logic, one woman expressing discomfort at being cat-called means ALL women hate being cat-called. But you know that isn't true. So why are you supposing the other extreme is true??

 

What is so radical about just not assuming what someone else likes, and keeping personalized comments (and I think sex is damn personal) to your damn self?

All I am saying is you can't place all the blame on the man. Women enable in these situations. People in general do what works or what gets a positive response. You have to understand if men do something it's because there were women that gave them a positive response. You asking someone to keep a comment to themselves isn't going to stop them when there are women out here that like the comment. It's like I said if you want to change it you have to call you own gender on it too and encourage them to stop enabling it.