verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Again, I don't typically engage in any crass expressions of sexuality, here or elsewhere. The truth is, the female posters here who are affected by men 's comments about other women's bodies are a very small (but very shrill) minority. If the majority of women here couldn't give two sh**s about those kinds of comments, why should a male poster curtail his genuine thought process to placate a grand total of maybe 7 regular posters? And truthfully, I don't particularly care about being labeled an "ass" here or elsewhere. I'd rather feel free to express my genuine thoughts on a subject, and if someone out in internet-land feels hurt, too freaking bad. On top of that, by agreeing to post on this site, you explicitly agree to its terms of use. Those terms of use, as you pointed out, do not prohibit the discussion and comparison of people's bodies. Posters who engage in such discussions are not violating any standard of behavior in this community, written or otherwise. Like I said, you DO have a right to say what you think. And other people have a right to be hurt by it. You don't get to police someone else's feelings. If you get to say what you want, then so do they. And you can either decide that you don't care how they feel, and continue, or decide you DO care how they feel, and stop. I would just like to live and engage in a place that respected people's feelings, and where we didn't feel the need to express every thought that flutters across our brains. That is entitlement... the belief that what we have to say is more important than the impact it might have on someone else. Like I said, there's no real consequences for it. It's just, in my opinion, not a nice, ethical or thoughtful thing to do. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not saying that you don't have the right to feel uncomfortable. You do. And you don't just have to take it. You can tell them to eff off. You can give them the finger. You can insult them and roll your eyes like "as if". You can say "in your dreams, assh0le". I think we all have equal rights to say how we feel. And we all have the right to be offended and to react accordingly. I just don't think you have the right to expect strangers to change based on your personal comfort level. Why not? We expect strangers to act in certain ways in other areas. We expect people to wear clothes. We expect people to behave politely in movie theaters. We expect people to not get into our personal space on public transits, or in conversations. We have TONS of expectations of strangers, and how people should act in a society. I don't see why this shouldn't be among them. I shouldn't be responsible for policing someone else's inappropriate behavior. Sometimes people CAN'T speak of, for a variety of reasons, as I explained to Mme. Chauncer. What then? Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It's not necessarily a "bad thing", but we do not always know where the happy medium really is for us. Like I was saying, recognizing a woman's physical attractiveness doesn't mean we treat them like walking boobs/butts/vaginas - that's an exaggeration in my opinion. I agree that those extreme examples happen a little too often - it makes it difficult not just for women but for men who don't behave like that (albeit less so). And my other point is perhaps almost the same as Joystick's comment - "There is no benefit for men to stop doing it". I don't completely agree with it, but at the same time, the men who go through great pains to not "view women as sex objects" and not talk about them sexually, are the ones who end up confused, do not know how to attract women organically, and ultimately end up having poor romantic relations with women as a result. But you guys are completely IGNORING what I said. That it is totally all right to talk to a woman sexually... WITH HER CONSENT. If she is flirting with you, wanting your attention, engaging you in a romantic way, then you can speak sexually to her. What is difficult to understand that you should treat women distantly (as in not sexually) until they have given you an indication that sexual advances are welcome? Link to post Share on other sites
TheBigQuestion Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I love ya V but you and DY have this habit of wanting to police the male world because of your inescurities,its not gonna happen you cant control people Honestly, this is what it sounds like to me too. The above-referenced posters and a small handful of others who tend to initiate these types of conversations more often than not seem to be suffering from Sour Grapes syndrome. I can't help but feel that if these posters were either more physically attractive, had better self-esteem, or had a more realistic perception of their own attractiveness, they wouldn't post this sort of stuff. These discussions are nearly always rooted in their own insecurities. Link to post Share on other sites
mesmerized Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The solution for this issue is for women to become equally shallow. And now we currently are not but hopefully on the way to get there. It'd be nice for men to taste their own medicine sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Honestly, this is what it sounds like to me too. The above-referenced posters and a small handful of others who tend to initiate these types of conversations more often than not seem to be suffering from Sour Grapes syndrome. I can't help but feel that if these posters were either more physically attractive, had better self-esteem, or had a more realistic perception of their own attractiveness, they wouldn't post this sort of stuff. These discussions are nearly always rooted in their own insecurities. Well DUH. That still doesn't invalidate feelings. So what if our feelings are hurt because of insecurities? People's feelings are hurt for a variety of reasons.... why are some less valid than others? Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 But you guys are completely IGNORING what I said. That it is totally all right to talk to a woman sexually... WITH HER CONSENT. If she is flirting with you, wanting your attention, engaging you in a romantic way, then you can speak sexually to her. What is difficult to understand that you should treat women distantly (as in not sexually) until they have given you an indication that sexual advances are welcome? Oh Verhzrn, if it were that simple . Why do you think I have been a virgin for so long? A lot of men do not know. Some men can't even take a woman "flirting" with them as consent that she even wants them to think of her sexually. If we relied on that, we would never ever talk sexually to a woman, ever, because we'd be disappointed with the varied reactions! It is just risks we have to be willing to take. We may actually have to be "offensive" occasionally just to gauge whether she is interested or not, because even if she looks like she's interested, sometimes she really isn't, unfortunately. You have to learn, as I did, to be absolutely ON POINT and almost wizard-like with your words at all times. It's tedium, but anything for accommodation it seems. The solution for this issue is for women to become equally shallow. And now we currently are not but hopefully on the way to get there. It'd be nice for men to taste their own medicine sometimes. Oh, PLEASE be shallow, I'm begging you! Link to post Share on other sites
TheBigQuestion Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Well DUH. That still doesn't invalidate feelings. So what if our feelings are hurt because of insecurities? People's feelings are hurt for a variety of reasons.... why are some less valid than others? It doesn't invalidate your feelings. If your hurt feelings exist because of insecurities that have little or nothing to do with any posters here, why not work on fixing those insecurities instead of trying to change the world? Whenever you post about something like this, you are trying to make a logical argument about subjects to which logic rarely applies. On top of that, you also make constant appeals to emotion, which is extremely flawed argumentation no matter what the context. I'd also advise against advocating the further censorship and curbing of male sexuality. The stuff you see in the bowels of the internet, the vulgar objectification of women on Reddit, etc., constitutes a reactionary phenomenon. What is it reacting to? The now decades-long attempts at "civilizing" male sexuality. Until the internet became mainstream, it was the last frontier unaffected by that aforementioned societal trend, the only place left where "boys could be boys." Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Oh, PLEASE be shallow, I'm begging you! Illustrates the limitations of the "Golden Rule". Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Oh Verhzrn, if it were that simple . Why do you think I have been a virgin for so long? A lot of men do not know. Some men can't even take a woman "flirting" with them as consent that she even wants them to think of her sexually. If we relied on that, we would never ever talk sexually to a woman, ever, because we'd be disappointed with the varied reactions! It is just risks we have to be willing to take. We may actually have to be "offensive" occasionally just to gauge whether she is interested or not, because even if she looks like she's interested, sometimes she really isn't, unfortunately. You have to learn, as I did, to be absolutely ON POINT and almost wizard-like with your words at all times. It's tedium, but anything for accommodation it seems. Then I'll make it simple for you: If a woman is flirting with you, make a small observation about her body. Don't go fully sexual just yet, focus on beauty instead. If she responds to that, slowly up the doseage. Think of it as the Lobster Style of Sexual Approach. More importantly, if she says she is offended, DO NOT ARGUE WITH HER. Apologize, recover if possible, and if you're willing, ASK why it is offensive. Do not give her a patronizing speech about understanding male sexuality, social awkwardness, or freedom of speech. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Illustrates the limitations of the "Golden Rule". I don't follow? Elaborate Link to post Share on other sites
TheBigQuestion Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Oh Verhzrn, if it were that simple . Why do you think I have been a virgin for so long? A lot of men do not know. Some men can't even take a woman "flirting" with them as consent that she even wants them to think of her sexually. If we relied on that, we would never ever talk sexually to a woman, ever, because we'd be disappointed with the varied reactions! It is just risks we have to be willing to take. We may actually have to be "offensive" occasionally just to gauge whether she is interested or not, because even if she looks like she's interested, sometimes she really isn't, unfortunately. You have to learn, as I did, to be absolutely ON POINT and almost wizard-like with your words at all times. It's tedium, but anything for accommodation it seems. Oh, PLEASE be shallow, I'm begging you! Exactly. No one would be procreating nowadays if men didn't risk being "offensive" to women. Trying to figure what is offensive to each particular woman is nigh impossible. I could walk into a social situation and go up to a woman and say to her "Do you think that girl over there has a great ass? Because I do." She could respond "Nah, that other girl over there has a great ass. The girl you pointed out is an amateur." I could say the same thing or something far more innocuous to another woman and get slapped. It's not worth really trying to figure it out. You just have to throw it at the wall and see what sticks. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It doesn't invalidate your feelings. If your hurt feelings exist because of insecurities that have little or nothing to do with any posters here, why not work on fixing those insecurities instead of trying to change the world? Whenever you post about something like this, you are trying to make a logical argument about subjects to which logic rarely applies. On top of that, you also make constant appeals to emotion, which is extremely flawed argumentation no matter what the context. I'd also advise against advocating the further censorship and curbing of male sexuality. The stuff you see in the bowels of the internet, the vulgar objectification of women on Reddit, etc., constitutes a reactionary phenomenon. What is it reacting to? The now decades-long attempts at "civilizing" male sexuality. Until the internet became mainstream, it was the last frontier unaffected by that aforementioned societal trend, the only place left where "boys could be boys." But it DOES have something to do with posters here. Insecurities never happen in isolation. Like I was saying all the way back on page 2, women live in a culture that is constantly judging them and evaluating their worth based on their physical attractiveness. Thus, pretty = value of a human being = insecurity. It really disturbs me how male sexuality apparently means "get to shout rude and sexual things out of cars at girls." Or how "boys being boys" means males making sexual comments about a stranger's body. Do you really not see how seedy and pathetic that makes male sexuality?? I personally hope that men have a stronger sense of respect for women than doing something that makes women (even SOME of them) uncomfortable. That male sexuality would allow "civilizing." What exactly is so bad about male sexuality being civilized? Oh no, no more raping! Having to respect women's opinions about their bodies! Having to not say everything we think! How horrible! Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Then I'll make it simple for you: If a woman is flirting with you, make a small observation about her body. Don't go fully sexual just yet, focus on beauty instead. If she responds to that, slowly up the doseage. Think of it as the Lobster Style of Sexual Approach. More importantly, if she says she is offended, DO NOT ARGUE WITH HER. Apologize, recover if possible, and if you're willing, ASK why it is offensive. Do not give her a patronizing speech about understanding male sexuality, social awkwardness, or freedom of speech. You don't have to make it simple for me, I've navigated such situations before without much aggravation. I'm making the point that a lot of men do not. Either way, I actually advocate that men do not attempt to recover and just walk away. If I'm honest, I wouldn't want to date a girl who was offended by it. Link to post Share on other sites
Lonely Ronin Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I would just like to live and engage in a place that respected people's feelings, and where we didn't feel the need to express every thought that flutters across our brains. That is entitlement... the belief that what we have to say is more important than the impact it might have on someone else. You mean kind like what your doing right now? Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Exactly. No one would be procreating nowadays if men didn't risk being "offensive" to women. Trying to figure what is offensive to each particular woman is nigh impossible. I could walk into a social situation and go up to a woman and say to her "Do you think that girl over there has a great ass? Because I do." She could respond "Nah, that other girl over there has a great ass. The girl you pointed out is an amateur." I could say the same thing or something far more innocuous to another woman and get slapped. It's not worth really trying to figure it out. You just have to throw it at the wall and see what sticks. Odd. I have mated with males with them needing to make comments about another girl's ass first. In fact, most of the women I know have slept with males who DIDN'T make overt sexual comments on the first date. The guys got to KNOW them first to see if their sexual advances would be welcome. How very strange! Must be all of that "curbing" of male sexuality. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 You mean kind like what your doing right now? No, because I expressed already that he can say whatever he wants, but realize it hurts other people's feelings. And I'm not telling him how to feel.... that he doesn't get to feel sexual, or admire women's bodies. But it is rude to make a comment about someone else without their permission. Do you go up to strangers and tell them how ugly they are? No? Then why is it all right to make the same sort of comment about a strange woman's body? Link to post Share on other sites
Lonely Ronin Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Think of it as the Lobster Style of Sexual Approach. Are you trying to making a cooking reference? if so you are off the mark. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Odd. I have mated with males with them needing to make comments about another girl's ass first. In fact, most of the women I know have slept with males who DIDN'T make overt sexual comments on the first date. The guys got to KNOW them first to see if their sexual advances would be welcome. How very strange! Must be all of that "curbing" of male sexuality. Those guys probably had some trial and error moments that their SOs don't know about. As have many of us guys. I've been lucky that every girl I've tried it on with has been inherently more sexual than I have been when trying to flirt - to my surprise. Most of the time, I still didn't get anywhere, which goes to show you that half the time you do not know as a man. Perhaps accurately expressing your sexuality NON-verbally is crucial in this case. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Those guys probably had some trial and error moments that their SOs don't know about. As have many of us guys. I've been lucky that every girl I've tried it on with has been inherently more sexual than I have been when trying to flirt - to my surprise. Most of the time, I still didn't get anywhere, which goes to show you that half the time you do not know as a man. Perhaps accurately expressing your sexuality NON-verbally is crucial in this case. Well I'd say touch is a good idea. I'd say that touch is a safer bet of expressing your sexuality than verbal is. And no, some of my bfs did not have previous experience. Nerds, remember? Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I don't follow? Elaborate "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" So if you want women to objectify you.....objectify them! Mesmerized's "medicine" sounded tasty to you, and that's why it wouldn't work. Men would love to be sexually lusted after as women are, as long as they kept their position and status in society. Link to post Share on other sites
joystickd Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 That's f*cking funny It reminds me of a post I made earlier. The guys who say the least about women sexually are the ones who do poorly with women admittedly. Maybe it's because women want to live in a society where their feelings aren't constantly being hurt. Maybe because it'd be nice to live in a society where people are respected and treated like, ya know, people, not just walking boobs/butts/vaginas, and where a woman can go out in public without getting yelled at just for being a woman. Maybe because we should strive to live in a place where we aren't hurting other people's feelings. Why is this a bad thing? The only thing you can control in this life is how you react to situations and how they affect you. Everyone man and women gets their feelings hurt. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The only thing you can control in this life is how you react to situations and how they affect you. Everyone man and women gets their feelings hurt. That doesn't mean we should encourage it. People also get murdered! Should we stop prosecuting murderers? We should strive to make our society better, more respectable, than excuse ourselves to wallow in our worst impulses. Link to post Share on other sites
joystickd Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Well I'd say touch is a good idea. I'd say that touch is a safer bet of expressing your sexuality than verbal is. And no, some of my bfs did not have previous experience. Nerds, remember? I was a former nerd. Im glad thats behind me. Link to post Share on other sites
Lonely Ronin Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 No, because I expressed already that he can say whatever he wants, but realize it hurts other people's feelings. And I'm not telling him how to feel.... that he doesn't get to feel sexual, or admire women's bodies. But it is rude to make a comment about someone else without their permission. Do you go up to strangers and tell them how ugly they are? No? Then why is it all right to make the same sort of comment about a strange woman's body? I was referring to this specifically feel the need to express every thought that flutters across our brains. That is entitlement... That's what you are doing isn't it? This topic is a sensitive spot for you, so you decided to say something about it. Link to post Share on other sites
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