Men talking about women

[Quiet Storm]

Because it'd be too horrible for them to just NOT say sexual things out loud before, ya know, asking?

 

Again, the only way men could be confused is if they assumed all women were the same, and all wanted to be treated the exact same way. Just because I can make a gay joke to one of my male friends does not mean I can make a gay joke to a complete stranger. This is just simple social skills. What is tough to understand about that??

 

It's not hard to understand, but there are so many people that do not have basic social skills. They do not easily pick up on social cues, or facial expressions, or body language. So just like men should not assume all women want to be oggled, I don't assume that all men are intuitive to what a particular woman wants him to do or say.

 

And don't you generalize as well? Maybe you assume that all men want a thin woman with curves in the right places? Maybe you assume that all men don't want to be monogamous?

[verhrzn]

As a man I will say women are confusing sometimes. You have to kind of analyze if their actions are interest or just their normal behavior. I will put it this way. You are a man with no experience with women. You go out and meet women a few times that smile and touch your shoulder. You all exchange numbers and date a few times. What conclusion would you draw from that? Most of these exchanges seem to be a total lack of understanding about the other gender. I am understanding of women wanting to be seen more than just looks and a body or sexual objects but at the same time women have to have some understanding of the male perspective. I am not asking you to think or act like a man but to have some understanding.

 

I will say in order to change something you do have to have some level of understanding about it.

 

For f*cks sake, I am NOT ASKING MEN TO CHANGE.

 

All I am asking is for men to keep their goddamn sexual comments to themselves. How is that f*cking difficult? Keep your opinions to yourself unless otherwise indicated. SEE. OTHERWISE INDICATED. How is that so hard to comprehend? I think you are being dense on purpose.

[joystickd]

Um..... you're the one claiming ALL men act a certain way, and all men should GET to act a certain way.

 

How about actually addressing my points? Why is it necessary to verbalize your desires? Why does your need to verbalize override someone else's need to NOT hear such comments verbalized?

I never said they get to act a certain way. I mentioned that they do it because they get a positive response from it. Women enable this behavior not all but enough for them to see it as positive feedback. In this case there is no benefit on the man's part to stop doing it.

[Lonely Ronin]

I'm not speaking about me personally. I am speaking from a female perspective, which I have heard a lot of from friends, acquaintances, coworkers, on blogs, etc.

 

I ask ONCE AGAIN, why is a guy's right to say something sexual about a woman's body more important than her right to feel comfortable and safe?? Why is it too much to ask for men to keep their comments to themselves in a public setting?

 

at this point I'm just playing devils advocate, because I'm a lot more private that most guys.

 

Because it's your job as an individual to speak up if you don't like something. And when I say something I mean in general. Society is a lot wimpier today than it used to be, so many people want society or the state to protect/shield them from everything they don't want to deal with.

[Quiet Storm]

Um.... NO. Because it is WRONG to assume that all people are the same just because they belonged to the same gender.

 

It shouldn't have any bearing because you should learn that women are individuals who like different things.

 

Seriously...I've read your threads and I think you need to take your own advice and learn that men are individuals who also like different things. Or accept that people do generalize based on their personal experiences.

[joystickd]

For f*cks sake, I am NOT ASKING MEN TO CHANGE.

 

All I am asking is for men to keep their goddamn sexual comments to themselves. How is that f*cking difficult? Keep your opinions to yourself unless otherwise indicated. SEE. OTHERWISE INDICATED. How is that so hard to comprehend? I think you are being dense on purpose.

I am just stressing the point that women enable this behavior too and if you want to change it women have to be called on it too. I am not being dense. I just get so damn annoyed by both genders and blaming a lot of these problems on the opposite genders when the reality is that both genders play a role in these issues. One does the behavior and the other enables. You can't stop the behavior unless you stop both.

[verhrzn]

It's not hard to understand, but there are so many people that do not have basic social skills. They do not easily pick up on social cues, or facial expressions, or body language. So just like men should not assume all women want to be oggled, I don't assume that all men are intuitive to what a particular woman wants him to do or say.

 

And don't you generalize as well? Maybe you assume that all men want a thin woman with curves in the right places? Maybe you assume that all men don't want to be monogamous?

 

Difference in my assumptions is I'm not going up to every guy and telling him how he should feel. Guys that say that women should "understand" their sexuality are essentially saying women don't get to feel uncomfortable/not want to hear their sexual comments. That guys get to make sexual comments, and women just have to take it, regardless of whether they want to or not.

 

And just because guys have poor social skills does not mean they should be excused. They should instead LEARN to, ya know, keep their sexual opinions to themselves unless otherwise indicated. They don't get off the hook just because they can't read body language.

[verhrzn]

I am just stressing the point that women enable this behavior too and if you want to change it women have to be called on it too. I am not being dense. I just get so damn annoyed by both genders and blaming a lot of these problems on the opposite genders when the reality is that both genders play a role in these issues. One does the behavior and the other enables. You can't stop the behavior unless you stop both.

 

SOME women enable it because SOME WOMEN LIKE IT. (I am bolding and underlining this since you missed it in the last few posts.) Again, women are individuals who like different things.

 

Women don't have to be "called" on it because they LIKE it, and they should get to enjoy what they like. That means that guys who enjoy expressing their sexual opinions get to express those opinions WITH THOSE WOMEN.

 

The ONLY thing I am asking is that men identify who those women are FIRST. I am asking that men not assume we ALL enjoy it. So, find out FIRST if a woman enjoys it, and if she does, hurray! If she doesn't, then no harm, no foul, because you haven't gone ahead and ASSUMED how she felt and made her uncomfortable. Everybody wins.

[joystickd]

Um.... NO. Because it is WRONG to assume that all people are the same just because they belonged to the same gender.

 

It shouldn't have any bearing because you should learn that women are individuals who like different things.

 

By your logic, one woman expressing discomfort at being cat-called means ALL women hate being cat-called. But you know that isn't true. So why are you supposing the other extreme is true??

 

What is so radical about just not assuming what someone else likes, and keeping personalized comments (and I think sex is damn personal) to your damn self?

Actually you say its wrong but don't you believe that men have a universal type of woman they see as attractive. So the pot is calling the kettle black.

[joystickd]

SOME women enable it because SOME WOMEN LIKE IT. (I am bolding and underlining this since you missed it in the last few posts.) Again, women are individuals who like different things.

 

Women don't have to be "called" on it because they LIKE it, and they should get to enjoy what they like. That means that guys who enjoy expressing their sexual opinions get to express those opinions WITH THOSE WOMEN.

 

The ONLY thing I am asking is that men identify who those women are FIRST. I am asking that men not assume we ALL enjoy it. So, find out FIRST if a woman enjoys it, and if she does, hurray! If she doesn't, then no harm, no foul, because you haven't gone ahead and ASSUMED how she felt and made her uncomfortable. Everybody wins.

Imagine how that would sound " I was wondering is it ok to say you have a nice ass". Most women would see that man as weak.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Freedom of speech means the government cannot arrest you. But there is NOT freedom of speech between individual citizens. If you tell everyone I'm a big old slutty McSluterison, I can sue you for libel. If my boss makes sexual comments about me, I can report him for harassment. Freedom of speech is a political right, not a social right.

 

I really do know this.

 

I still think that it's up to an individual whether they will say something that might offend someone who hears it, or not. If there are consequences, they will learn what they are.

 

I think that if a man you know, or even a stranger near you says something that offends or hurts you and you are serious about it, you should say what you feel / think about it. Maybe he'll think twice the next time.

 

Once I was walking in Pike Place Market. It's usually really crowded there. Some guy was walking towards me and right before we passed, he muttered something obscene about what he'd like to do TO me.

 

I was able to step right in front of him and get absolute eye contact before he slipped by. I said, "Would you really? Because making sleazy remarks under your breath when you're passing women in public places is very unlikely to ever get you there, with anybody."

 

That guy was squirming. I like to think that he would NEVER do that again.

 

But the way you or I feel about something is never really going to change the way other people act, unless they care enough.

[verhrzn]

Imagine how that would sound " I was wondering is it ok to say you have a nice ass". Most women would see that man as weak.

 

"Otherwise indicated" as in "she has been speaking to you and flirting with you." As in, she has given some indication that she wants YOUR attention. It's called reading social signals. You don't have to necessarily ask, but there's a big difference between telling a complete stranger a sexual comment, and telling someone you've been flirting with a sexual comment.

[TheBigQuestion]

For f*cks sake, I am NOT ASKING MEN TO CHANGE.

 

All I am asking is for men to keep their goddamn sexual comments to themselves. How is that f*cking difficult? Keep your opinions to yourself unless otherwise indicated. SEE. OTHERWISE INDICATED. How is that so hard to comprehend? I think you are being dense on purpose.

 

Obviously, I think street harassment is crass and stupid. There are limited social contexts in which it is appropriate to make comments about women's bodies directly to them, or even around them.

 

Even though I've very rarely said anything about a woman's body on LS, positive or negative, I still do not understand what the big deal is if someone makes a post on the internet about the physical features they admire in the opposite sex. This whole idea that I have to worry about offending the rather unpredictable sensibilities of strangers on the internet who I will never meet and to whom I owe absolutely nothing is just ridiculous. Female posters with even a trifle of self-esteem will not be affected by a random guy saying he liked his date's "nice rack" if they don't have it. The same goes for a guy who reads a post written by a woman saying that she needs a penis longer than 7".

 

I'm generally just sick of the way speech nowadays is being consistently censored or curtailed either by the government or a group of butt-hurt people armed with torches and pitchforks. I can't call an "illegal immigrant" an illegal immigrant without some people getting butt-hurt. Now you're telling me I have to worry about offending strangers on the internet with a comment about how I'm turned on by a nice pair of breasts? That I need to get your "consent" before I make sexual comments?

[verhrzn]

I really do know this.

 

I still think that it's up to an individual whether they will say something that might offend someone who hears it, or not. If there are consequences, they will learn what they are.

 

I think that if a man you know, or even a stranger near you says something that offends or hurts you and you are serious about it, you should say what you feel / think about it. Maybe he'll think twice the next time.

 

Once I was walking in Pike Place Market. It's usually really crowded there. Some guy was walking towards me and right before we passed, he muttered something obscene about what he'd like to do TO me.

 

I was able to step right in front of him and get absolute eye contact before he slipped by. I said, "Would you really? Because making sleazy remarks under your breath when you're passing women in public places is very unlikely to ever get you there, with anybody."

 

That guy was squirming. I like to think that he would NEVER do that again.

 

But the way you or I feel about something is never really going to change the way other people act, unless they care enough.

 

True, but is it really my responsible to correct bad behavior? Do I (or any woman) really have to confront every single man who makes an obscene comment about her? What if it's a comment shouted from a car? What if in the moment you're paralyzed from shock and can't think of anything to say? What if you feel unsafe saying it?

 

I linked that article in which the girl was trapped on a train, and guys kept hitting on her. When she finally DID say something, the guy went absolutely ape-sh*t. I'm sure you can understand how scary that must have been, and how it made her think that SHE had no right to speak.

 

I am just very, very uncomfortable with the idea that women are the ones who have to correct men, instead of men taking onus to actually, ya know, be respectful in the first place.

[ThaWholigan]

Imagine how that would sound " I was wondering is it ok to say you have a nice ass". Most women would see that man as weak.

That's f*cking funny

 

It reminds me of a post I made earlier. The guys who say the least about women sexually are the ones who do poorly with women admittedly.

[verhrzn]

Obviously, I think street harassment is crass and stupid. There are limited social contexts in which it is appropriate to make comments about women's bodies directly to them, or even around them.

 

Even though I've very rarely said anything about a woman's body on LS, positive or negative, I still do not understand what the big deal is if someone makes a post on the internet about the physical features they admire in the opposite sex. This whole idea that I have to worry about offending the rather unpredictable sensibilities of strangers on the internet who I will never meet and to whom I owe absolutely nothing is just ridiculous. Female posters with even a trifle of self-esteem will not be affected by a random guy saying he liked his date's "nice rack" if they don't have it. The same goes for a guy who reads a post written by a woman saying that she needs a penis longer than 7".

 

I'm generally just sick of the way speech nowadays is being consistently censored or curtailed either by the government or a group of butt-hurt people armed with torches and pitchforks. I can't call an "illegal immigrant" an illegal immigrant without some people getting butt-hurt. Now you're telling me I have to worry about offending strangers on the internet with a comment about how I'm turned on by a nice pair of breasts? That I need to get your "consent" before I make sexual comments?

 

Um. Yeah. You should probably be considerate of other people's feelings in a community. Or, you can say what you like, and then get labeled an a**. You can say what you like, they can get "butt-hurt" and yell at you for it.

 

People have a right to their feelings. Thawhalogian wanted to know why women were getting upset. You don't HAVE to stop saying anything... you won't get banned. There are no legal sanctions against it.

 

But realize that you ARE hurting someone's feelings. Realize that your words have power, and that this is a community. Realize that there are social consequences for your words/actions, and realize that there is a CONTEXT for your words. They aren't just words. Words have power, words have meaning and feelings.

 

You don't care about hurting someone else's feelings, fine. That is what you decide. But they get to be hurt, and they get to express it, and you can either decide to stop or decide to continue.

[Lonely Ronin]

i'm talking about professional implications. Being disregarded professionally is not only about her perceptions, and it does happen.

 

I was referring to professional implications as well.

 

this post specifically

 

A woman posted earlier about never knowing if this man she is talking to is interested in her thoughts and opinions, or if he is only listening to her to get into her pants.

 

Do you not agree that that is a perception/interpolation on her part? Short of a guy saying something to confirm her assumption that's all it is.

 

Again playing devils advocate, guys face similar (not the same) perceptions about women. Imo opinion, people simply need accept that while certain generalizations can be made about a given gender, everyone is different and needs to be treated accordingly.

[Quiet Storm]

there is no benefit on the man's part to stop doing it.

 

The thing is joystickd, many women want men to modify their behavior because it might hurt some women's feelings. In generations past, this was common. Men have "protected" women from things like being honest about their sexuality, the realities of war and violence, or even just using bad language. The "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" or "don't worry your pretty little head about it" attitude. But most women these days don't want to be "protected" because we see ourselves as equals. "We can handle the truth!" But the price for that lack of "protection" is honesty that may not always be palatable to us. Our feelings might get hurt. But IMO, we shouldn't expect men to protect our feelings (except our partners, family members). We should have the coping skills to deal with realities that we may not like.

 

I try to accept people as they are, and if someone hurts my feelings I just don't associate with them.

[verhrzn]

The thing is joystickd, many women want men to modify their behavior because it might hurt some women's feelings. In generations past, this was common. Men have "protected" women from things like being honest about their sexuality, the realities of war and violence, or even just using bad language. The "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" or "don't worry your pretty little head about it" attitude. But most women these days don't want to be "protected" because we see ourselves as equals. "We can handle the truth!" But the price for that lack of "protection" is honesty that may not always be palatable to us. Our feelings might get hurt. But IMO, we shouldn't expect men to protect our feelings (except our partners, family members). We should have the coping skills to deal with realities that we may not like.

 

I try to accept people as they are, and if someone hurts my feelings I just don't associate with them.

 

Maybe it's because women want to live in a society where their feelings aren't constantly being hurt. Maybe because it'd be nice to live in a society where people are respected and treated like, ya know, people, not just walking boobs/butts/vaginas, and where a woman can go out in public without getting yelled at just for being a woman. Maybe because we should strive to live in a place where we aren't hurting other people's feelings.

 

Why is this a bad thing?

[TheBigQuestion]

Um. Yeah. You should probably be considerate of other people's feelings in a community. Or, you can say what you like, and then get labeled an a**. You can say what you like, they can get "butt-hurt" and yell at you for it.

 

People have a right to their feelings. Thawhalogian wanted to know why women were getting upset. You don't HAVE to stop saying anything... you won't get banned. There are no legal sanctions against it.

 

But realize that you ARE hurting someone's feelings. Realize that your words have power, and that this is a community. Realize that there are social consequences for your words/actions, and realize that there is a CONTEXT for your words. They aren't just words. Words have power, words have meaning and feelings.

 

You don't care about hurting someone else's feelings, fine. That is what you decide. But they get to be hurt, and they get to express it, and you can either decide to stop or decide to continue.

 

Again, I don't typically engage in any crass expressions of sexuality, here or elsewhere. The truth is, the female posters here who are affected by men 's comments about other women's bodies are a very small (but very shrill) minority. If the majority of women here couldn't give two sh**s about those kinds of comments, why should a male poster curtail his genuine thought process to placate a grand total of maybe 7 regular posters?

 

And truthfully, I don't particularly care about being labeled an "ass" here or elsewhere. I'd rather feel free to express my genuine thoughts on a subject, and if someone out in internet-land feels hurt, too freaking bad. On top of that, by agreeing to post on this site, you explicitly agree to its terms of use. Those terms of use, as you pointed out, do not prohibit the discussion and comparison of people's bodies. Posters who engage in such discussions are not violating any standard of behavior in this community, written or otherwise.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Imagine how that would sound " I was wondering is it ok to say you have a nice ass". Most women would see that man as weak.

 

Please try it out and report back.

[xxoo]

I was referring to professional implications as well.

 

this post specifically

 

 

 

Do you not agree that that is a perception/interpolation on her part? Short of a guy saying something to confirm her assumption that's all it is.

 

Again playing devils advocate, guys face similar (not the same) perceptions about women. Imo opinion, people simply need accept that while certain generalizations can be made about a given gender, everyone is different and needs to be treated accordingly.

 

No, I don't agree.

 

When I was in uni, I had experiences where a man seemed interesting in engaging with me on an academic level right up until the point that he learned I had a boyfriend. In one case, a man actually pivoted in his chair and turned his back to me at that point, mid-converstation, in a classroom

 

It was very obvious that these men were only pretending to be interested in my thoughts, when in reality they were only interested in me sexually.

 

I've also had some very different experiences with other men, and I don't believe all men are like that. But I have experienced it, and I don't like it.

[SteveC80]

I love ya V but you and DY have this habit of wanting to police the male world because of your inescurities,its not gonna happen you cant control people

 

Theyres always gonna be Dbags and aholes and people who go over the line or do something you dont approve of or that makes you uncofmortable its just how life works

 

You just cant let it bother you and need to focus on people who arent like that

[ThaWholigan]

Maybe it's because women want to live in a society where their feelings aren't constantly being hurt. Maybe because it'd be nice to live in a society where people are respected and treated like, ya know, people, not just walking boobs/butts/vaginas, and where a woman can go out in public without getting yelled at just for being a woman. Maybe because we should strive to live in a place where we aren't hurting other people's feelings.

 

Why is this a bad thing?

It's not necessarily a "bad thing", but we do not always know where the happy medium really is for us.

 

Like I was saying, recognizing a woman's physical attractiveness doesn't mean we treat them like walking boobs/butts/vaginas - that's an exaggeration in my opinion. I agree that those extreme examples happen a little too often - it makes it difficult not just for women but for men who don't behave like that (albeit less so).

 

And my other point is perhaps almost the same as Joystick's comment - "There is no benefit for men to stop doing it". I don't completely agree with it, but at the same time, the men who go through great pains to not "view women as sex objects" and not talk about them sexually, are the ones who end up confused, do not know how to attract women organically, and ultimately end up having poor romantic relations with women as a result.

[Quiet Storm]

Difference in my assumptions is I'm not going up to every guy and telling him how he should feel. Guys that say that women should "understand" their sexuality are essentially saying women don't get to feel uncomfortable/not want to hear their sexual comments. That guys get to make sexual comments, and women just have to take it, regardless of whether they want to or not.

 

And just because guys have poor social skills does not mean they should be excused. They should instead LEARN to, ya know, keep their sexual opinions to themselves unless otherwise indicated. They don't get off the hook just because they can't read body language.

 

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to feel uncomfortable. You do.

 

And you don't just have to take it. You can tell them to eff off. You can give them the finger. You can insult them and roll your eyes like "as if". You can say "in your dreams, assh0le".

 

I think we all have equal rights to say how we feel. And we all have the right to be offended and to react accordingly. I just don't think you have the right to expect strangers to change based on your personal comfort level.