Men talking about women

[verhrzn]

You used the correct word there, and this is quite possibly the premise for me creating the entire thread:

 

Shame

 

I think a lot of men read things like this and feel shame. For whatever reason, they do. I can deal with a feeling such as that and still have some semblance of confidence in my sexuality because I have dealt with these feelings before. I credit internal characteristics that I have cultivated over the years. Many men haven't spent as much time doing that, and will not know how to deal with the shame.

 

It is not the intention of, what I feel comfortable to say, the majority of men to make women feel uncomfortable. On the few occasions I have been accused of "viewing women as sexual objects", I remember once impulsively retorting, "I don't view women as sexual 'objects', I view them as sexual 'beings' like me". I think I was 21 at the time. Needless to say it didn't go down well, but I was determined not to feel ashamed like I had been for many years before AND after.

 

I don't really know what would be a happy medium - do we merely quietly acknowledge and slope away? Regarding professional situations, I agree there should be a level of professionalism, and I consider myself to be professional enough that I can deal with any sexual feelings I have appropriately while taking on board any other attribute, as I have been able to do in many non-sexually charged environments with women. It's not alien to me.

 

I think you avoid that by gaining consent from a woman. If a woman is giving off signals that she is uncomfortable, or if she does not seem welcoming of your comments (about her OR other women), THEN STOP IT.

 

Women get to feel their feelings. Women are allowed to feel that things make them uncomfortable. Most men may not MEAN to make them uncomfortable, but there ARE some men who DO. There are entire pages FILLED with guys verbally abusing or making outrageous statements to women JUST because they are women. So women are constantly on guard for this behavior.

 

Again, women have no way of reading your mind. They can't know that you're a "good one" until it might already be too late. They have to trust their instincts.... and while instincts could be wrong, like in your case, better safe than sorry.

 

If you want women to be more comfortable around men, then you need to help eliminate the behavior of men that makes women uncomfortable. And YOU need to take on the responsibility of making a woman comfortable BEFORE you jump in with comments that might offend her.

 

Like I've said, if a woman has expressed an openness to being objectified, then all right, you are welcome to express this. If you are in an appropriate venue (like a burlesque show or a strip club), then okay, objectify. If your partner has told you she likes it, go nuts!

 

But until you obtain consent, keep the comments to yourself. This is just polite. This is just simple respect for someone else's boundaries and feelings. Women SHOULD NOT be obligated to feel uncomfortable just so some male stranger doesn't feel shame about his sexuality.

[joystickd]

If they keep it between their ears, I will never know, and thus probably never care. If they keep it to locker room chatter, I will roll my eyes and consider it kind of juvenile, but I don't see that as objectifying.

 

I think "mixed company" kind of does sum it up. Mixed company, public places, are not the places to express lust to someone who has not previously consented to it. If the person has consented to it (there has been flirtation, initiation of conversation, etc.) hey, admire away.

 

So if a man wants to objectify a woman out loud, he should make sure it's okay with her first. In between his ears, or alone with his buddies (in other words, in private) I'm not sure I dig it, but he is completely within his rights and breaking no boundaries.

Like I said before men say it out loud because there are women that like it. If that is a problem then women need to be called on it too not just men

[ThaWholigan]

I think you avoid that by gaining consent from a woman. If a woman is giving off signals that she is uncomfortable, or if she does not seem welcoming of your comments (about her OR other women), THEN STOP IT.

 

Women get to feel their feelings. Women are allowed to feel that things make them uncomfortable. Most men may not MEAN to make them uncomfortable, but there ARE some men who DO. There are entire pages FILLED with guys verbally abusing or making outrageous statements to women JUST because they are women. So women are constantly on guard for this behavior.

 

Again, women have no way of reading your mind. They can't know that you're a "good one" until it might already be too late. They have to trust their instincts.... and while instincts could be wrong, like in your case, better safe than sorry.

 

If you want women to be more comfortable around men, then you need to help eliminate the behavior of men that makes women uncomfortable. And YOU need to take on the responsibility of making a woman comfortable BEFORE you jump in with comments that might offend her.

 

Like I've said, if a woman has expressed an openness to being objectified, then all right, you are welcome to express this. If you are in an appropriate venue (like a burlesque show or a strip club), then okay, objectify. If your partner has told you she likes it, go nuts!

 

But until you obtain consent, keep the comments to yourself. This is just polite. This is just simple respect for someone else's boundaries and feelings. Women SHOULD NOT be obligated to feel uncomfortable just so some male stranger doesn't feel shame about his sexuality.

 

This is a general you so I'll assume you're not talking to me personally. I'd like to clarify a few things.

 

When I talk about women and their bodies, I do so mostly on the internet, and I very rarely do so in a sleazy or disrespectful manner (save my teenage years of hhboard and Ill Community - the "I'd smash" years). It's probably the most comfortable medium for me to do so because I feel I have more freedom.

 

Also, when I'm out on the street, I often do my best NOT to ogle, so it's not as if I go out feasting my eyes on every woman present, nor do I present inappropriate comments. Occasionally I will compliment a woman, and luckily for me the few times I have complimented a stranger it has been well received.

 

Either way, when I talk about women, I wouldn't say I objectify them in the manner with which is being described. I just thought I would make that clear.

[joystickd]

One common thing I see in some of the female responses is a common theme of "Why can't men act more like women?". Its kind of like the "bitter" guys and their rants that have a theme of "Why can't women act more like men?". Really think about it would you be attracted to the opposite sex that had qualities of your own gender. Men and women are parts of a whole and together form something perfect and to get to that point you have to accept certain things in the opposite sex. Men are visual and women are emotional and so on. When you come in wanting to change things you tear away at the core of what a relationship is to parts that complement each other to form a perfect union.

[Quiet Storm]

Like I said before men say it out loud because there are women that like it. If that is a problem then women need to be called on it too not just men

 

I agree with that. For every woman that gives the whistling jerk the finger, there's one behind her that'll shake her goodies as she walks on by.

 

Men would never cheat if there weren't women willing to offer themselves up as the other women.

[verhrzn]

This is a general you so I'll assume you're not talking to me personally. I'd like to clarify a few things.

 

When I talk about women and their bodies, I do so mostly on the internet, and I very rarely do so in a sleazy or disrespectful manner (save my teenage years of hhboard and Ill Community - the "I'd smash" years). It's probably the most comfortable medium for me to do so because I feel I have more freedom.

 

Also, when I'm out on the street, I often do my best NOT to ogle, so it's not as if I go out feasting my eyes on every woman present, nor do I present inappropriate comments. Occasionally I will compliment a woman, and luckily for me the few times I have complimented a stranger it has been well received.

 

Either way, when I talk about women, I wouldn't say I objectify them in the manner with which is being described. I just thought I would make that clear.

 

You are still talking about their bodies. Talking about their bodies in a medium where they have no way of consenting to you talking about them in such a way. If they knew, they might not be offended.... but they might be.

 

I also can't say where on the Internet you are objectifying women, but I'm going to assume this board. You know that this forum is public, and that it is mixed company. And obviously you know talking about it bothers some women here, otherwise you wouldn't have posted a thread about it.

 

So why do you feel that you deserve to talk about women's bodies, when it makes other people uncomfortable? Why does your need/right to objectify women, override other women's feelings of being uncomfortable? Why can you not restrict it to a private place, like between your ears or just with friends? (Or some other Internet venue where is it an accepted part of the community.)

[verhrzn]

I agree with that. For every woman that gives the whistling jerk the finger, there's one behind her that'll shake her goodies as she walks on by.

 

Men would never cheat if there weren't women willing to offer themselves up as the other women.

 

That is making Woman A responsible for Woman B's actions. So, because Woman A liked being hit in the face during sex, I should expect to be hit in the face during sex??

 

Yes, SOME women like it. Key word: SOME. What I'm saying is men should find out BEFORE they do it if the woman in front of them likes it. If she doesn't, he shouldn't do it. Clear as that.

[verhrzn]

One common thing I see in some of the female responses is a common theme of "Why can't men act more like women?". Its kind of like the "bitter" guys and their rants that have a theme of "Why can't women act more like men?". Really think about it would you be attracted to the opposite sex that had qualities of your own gender. Men and women are parts of a whole and together form something perfect and to get to that point you have to accept certain things in the opposite sex. Men are visual and women are emotional and so on. When you come in wanting to change things you tear away at the core of what a relationship is to parts that complement each other to form a perfect union.

 

Again, that's grouping people by the genitals they were born with. Some women are visual. Some men are emotional. We need to stop excusing people's actions because of their gender.

 

I am not saying men should act like women. I am saying men should be respectful of women's feelings and gain knowledge/consent that their actions are welcome before continuing with them. Why would this be such a difficult thing??

[joystickd]

You are still talking about their bodies. Talking about their bodies in a medium where they have no way of consenting to you talking about them in such a way. If they knew, they might not be offended.... but they might be.

 

I also can't say where on the Internet you are objectifying women, but I'm going to assume this board. You know that this forum is public, and that it is mixed company. And obviously you know talking about it bothers some women here, otherwise you wouldn't have posted a thread about it.

 

So why do you feel that you deserve to talk about women's bodies, when it makes other people uncomfortable? Why does your need/right to objectify women, override other women's feelings of being uncomfortable? Why can you not restrict it to a private place, like between your ears or just with friends? (Or some other Internet venue where is it an accepted part of the community.)

Why do you feel the need to change men? Men admire women's bodies and it takes something like physical attraction to kick start the male/female interaction. Why is that honestly such a problem? If I am just meeting a women and I know nothing about her I have to have something that women interest me about her. I mean she can't walk around with her degrees and accomplishments or a dry erase board to solve calculus problems. There has to be something that sparks the interest.

[Mme. Chaucer]

People live and learn. Even men!

 

I do think that men naturally tend to look at a general female body as a "sex object" a little more than women do with male bodies.

 

Expressing this, and forgetting about the woman as a complete human, or forgetting about the feelings of the women around him is something a lot of guys do at some points of their lives and then figure out is not really "happening" behavior.

 

They are probably still thinking it, though!

[Mme. Chaucer]

I mean she can't walk around with her degrees and accomplishments or a dry erase board to solve calculus problems. There has to be something that sparks the interest.

 

But, hold on a second. Maybe a sandwich board advertising her accomplishments, AND hiding her physical assets? That could work!

[joystickd]

Again, that's grouping people by the genitals they were born with. Some women are visual. Some men are emotional. We need to stop excusing people's actions because of their gender.

 

I am not saying men should act like women. I am saying men should be respectful of women's feelings and gain knowledge/consent that their actions are welcome before continuing with them. Why would this be such a difficult thing??

No its more than being respectful of feelings because on some level you can't even acknowledge the woman's role in enabling this behavior. Its all the men's fault. It's not the woman that goes out here with her ass out that giggles because of the looks and comments.

[joystickd]

But, hold on a second. Maybe a sandwich board advertising her accomplishments, AND hiding her physical assets? That could work!

I was actually going for the resume shirt.

[verhrzn]

Why do you feel the need to change men? Men admire women's bodies and it takes something like physical attraction to kick start the male/female interaction. Why is that honestly such a problem? If I am just meeting a women and I know nothing about her I have to have something that women interest me about her. I mean she can't walk around with her degrees and accomplishments or a dry erase board to solve calculus problems. There has to be something that sparks the interest.

 

It's not, so long as it's private, or kept between consenting parties. I have absolutely no issue (and I don't think anyone but the most extreme-thinking women do) with men admiring and objectifying women all they want in their brains. Go nuts.

 

It is when the objectification is stated out loud, like in mixed company, or hollered on the street, or scrolled across a message board, that things get dicey.

 

Men want to visually admire a woman's body? Fine. Do it discreetly, and keep it to yourself. What exactly is "changing" a man in that I expect him to keep his sexuality to himself unless I consent to share it?

[ThaWholigan]

You are still talking about their bodies. Talking about their bodies in a medium where they have no way of consenting to you talking about them in such a way. If they knew, they might not be offended.... but they might be.

 

I also can't say where on the Internet you are objectifying women, but I'm going to assume this board. You know that this forum is public, and that it is mixed company. And obviously you know talking about it bothers some women here, otherwise you wouldn't have posted a thread about it.

 

So why do you feel that you deserve to talk about women's bodies, when it makes other people uncomfortable? Why does your need/right to objectify women, override other women's feelings of being uncomfortable? Why can you not restrict it to a private place, like between your ears or just with friends? (Or some other Internet venue where is it an accepted part of the community.)

 

I didn't realize that it made so many women so uncomfortable until I came here . It's been most vehement here, rather than elsewhere. It bothered very few girls when I did it anywhere else, even on wrongplanet.

 

Again, it's not that I feel I "deserve" to talk about it, I just like to talk about it, and I felt a bit put out that it wasn't so appreciated. Otherwise, I wouldn't be asking, I'd be talking about it with my friends - or thinking about it privately.

 

Like I said, I guess I should just completely not talk about it if it makes women feel comfortable.......

[joystickd]

That is making Woman A responsible for Woman B's actions. So, because Woman A liked being hit in the face during sex, I should expect to be hit in the face during sex??

 

Yes, SOME women like it. Key word: SOME. What I'm saying is men should find out BEFORE they do it if the woman in front of them likes it. If she doesn't, he shouldn't do it. Clear as that.

Women do have to accept the role they have in enabling behavior just like men in enabling women's behavior.

[verhrzn]

No its more than being respectful of feelings because on some level you can't even acknowledge the woman's role in enabling this behavior. Its all the men's fault. It's not the woman that goes out here with her ass out that giggles because of the looks and comments.

 

Yeah because some women are different. Don't make Woman B responsible for Woman A's actions. My friend has absolutely no problem with me punching him in the arm. But I bet a stranger would call it "assault" if I walked up and punched him in the arm. See the context??

 

You want to know if a woman likes being objectified? Ask her. Men shouldn't just assume that because one woman liked it, tons of others will. We all get to have different opinions about how we are treated. It's called "asking men to treat us like individuals."

[joystickd]

It's not, so long as it's private, or kept between consenting parties. I have absolutely no issue (and I don't think anyone but the most extreme-thinking women do) with men admiring and objectifying women all they want in their brains. Go nuts.

 

It is when the objectification is stated out loud, like in mixed company, or hollered on the street, or scrolled across a message board, that things get dicey.

 

Men want to visually admire a woman's body? Fine. Do it discreetly, and keep it to yourself. What exactly is "changing" a man in that I expect him to keep his sexuality to himself unless I consent to share it?

Don't you want a man to appreciate your body and its beauty? Even a that is a nice dress is more about you body than the dress.

[verhrzn]

I didn't realize that it made so many women so uncomfortable until I came here . It's been most vehement here, rather than elsewhere. It bothered very few girls when I did it anywhere else, even on wrongplanet.

 

Again, it's not that I feel I "deserve" to talk about it, I just like to talk about it, and I felt a bit put out that it wasn't so appreciated. Otherwise, I wouldn't be asking, I'd be talking about it with my friends - or thinking about it privately.

 

Like I said, I guess I should just completely not talk about it if it makes women feel comfortable.......

 

No, you don't have to not talk about it at all. You just need to make sure the women in the environment you're in are okay with it. What's so wrong with discussing it over PM with female posters who don't mind? Or finding a message board dedicated to that sort of thing?

 

Again, why do you feel put out by it?? And you don't KNOW you didn't run into it previously... it's possible you DID make some women uncomfortable but they never said because they didn't want to "rock the boat." Maybe women here just have the freedom to express their true feelings a little more openly, just like you felt more freedom to objectify women online.

[verhrzn]

Don't you want a man to appreciate your body and its beauty? Even a that is a nice dress is more about you body than the dress.

 

The only person I want appreciating my body out loud are the people I am actively engaging with... My partner, a guy I'm flirting with, etc. Guys can appreciate it in their heads all they want, but if I'm not talking to you, I don't want to know it.

 

What is so difficult about this concept, just keeping some freaking things to yourself??

[joystickd]

Yeah because some women are different. Don't make Woman B responsible for Woman A's actions. My friend has absolutely no problem with me punching him in the arm. But I bet a stranger would call it "assault" if I walked up and punched him in the arm. See the context??

 

You want to know if a woman likes being objectified? Ask her. Men shouldn't just assume that because one woman liked it, tons of others will. We all get to have different opinions about how we are treated. It's called "asking men to treat us like individuals."

I will say you still have to acknowledge that some women enable. You can't ask men to stop when there is inconsistency in women about the behavior. It's like two parents saying hey you can do it and another saying you can't. It creates confusion. A lot of men are confused hence the reason for PUA. On some level we all generalize. If something works or is give the sign of acceptance it is seen as something that can be repeated. If you and other women want to change that then you have to change some of your own gender's attitudes. That is the only way that will change. If you don't like it another will just like if one don't want me to push for sex another will.

[joystickd]

The only person I want appreciating my body out loud are the people I am actively engaging with... My partner, a guy I'm flirting with, etc. Guys can appreciate it in their heads all they want, but if I'm not talking to you, I don't want to know it.

 

What is so difficult about this concept, just keeping some freaking things to yourself??

You act like men are going around say "Hey nice ass" when its not like that.

[verhrzn]

I will say you still have to acknowledge that some women enable. You can't ask men to stop when there is inconsistency in women about the behavior. It's like two parents saying hey you can do it and another saying you can't. It creates confusion. A lot of men are confused hence the reason for PUA. On some level we all generalize. If something works or is give the sign of acceptance it is seen as something that can be repeated. If you and other women want to change that then you have to change some of your own gender's attitudes. That is the only way that will change. If you don't like it another will just like if one don't want me to push for sex another will.

 

Um, it's only confusing if women are interchangeable and all have the same opinions. Some women like different things. We are individuals, and thus if you are going off how to treat Person A based on how Person B reacts, you are doing it wrong.

 

Giggling women aren't "enabling" anything. They are only confusing men if men assume that all women are the same, and all women will like This Thing. Thus, the fault still lies with the man for assuming that women are not individuals.

[joystickd]

No, you don't have to not talk about it at all. You just need to make sure the women in the environment you're in are okay with it. What's so wrong with discussing it over PM with female posters who don't mind? Or finding a message board dedicated to that sort of thing?

 

Again, why do you feel put out by it?? And you don't KNOW you didn't run into it previously... it's possible you DID make some women uncomfortable but they never said because they didn't want to "rock the boat." Maybe women here just have the freedom to express their true feelings a little more openly, just like you felt more freedom to objectify women online.

He is different than me because I just don't give a f**k. I say it no matter what. Why should I feel ashamed about being a man and having desires?

[verhrzn]

You act like men are going around say "Hey nice ass" when its not like that.

 

Um... men ARE going around saying that. I've heard horrible and awful stories of street harassment. I've heard awful stories of women getting harassed on buses, on trains, at the gym, at the grocery store, at the library, at work, at a party.... on and freaking on.

 

I debated whether or not to share this story.

 

Again, if men aren't verbalizing their objectification, then I see no issue here. What exactly are you claiming we should allow men to do?