How to stop the mind movies

[SomedayDig]

Ham...sorry, man but they were honestly shocked when I told them the news. They are good friends, and unlike some ~ I understand loyalty. My friend has a loyalty to the OM. They've been friends longer than he's known me by a decade, so that's about 20 years. How can I force him to have NC with the guy? I can't and I don't think that'd be fair of me to do. All I asked was that we all never be invited to the same party and he said he'd never let that happen. No, my W and the OM never went out to dinner or drinks or anything. Plain and simple they just met to screw. His "romancing" was his texts, which I've read. She bought into it hook line and sinker. I get it. In the last 10 years of my flying career I spent 4 years in a hotel somewhere. Honestly, I think that helped her lies to me a ton! I stopped flying last summer. She met him at his house once and a hotel twice since I've been home.

I don't want to get into whatever pissing match you and oldguy have, so I'm not going to address that stuff. Just know, I dig what you're saying and I hear it loud and clear. I'm not taking her at her word only. She's got way too much to prove right now.

[oldguy]

If you're a professional then you know that you shouldn't make recommendations citing your professional qualifications without actually having consulted with the patient. Therefore having presented yourself AS a professional it's unethical to be giving advice to someone you've never met.

My suggestions are based on generic knowledge I was not advising him on specifics.. at all (?)

 

Nevertheless out of all the 30 years of counseling you've done have you ever kept longitudinal records of your marital therapy patients five and ten years after the fact to see how many reconciliations were actually successful? Did you ever do double blind experiments to test your "theory" that full disclosure of the details (if desired by the betrayed spouse) negatively affects reconciliation?

I didn't have to, there are a multitude who have, and are.

 

No & no, I'm sure.

Well see, your wrong then.

 

What does "owning what she did" mean, if not truthfully disclosing the details of her betrayal to the victim of it?

It means she needs to go out of her way regain his faith in her for one.

 

He doesn't need "license to treat her like crap." Nothing he said indicated he had any intention of treating her like crap. You're blame shifting and rationalizing which makes me suspect that you yourself have probably committed infidelity in one or more of your own personal relationships. Having messed up relationships is a big motivation for people to choose therapy as a career.

 

True? False?

False, I have never committed infidelity, sorry, your wrong again.

My concern about someone treating a person in this situation like crap is again; a generic concern because it is a common problem born of the anger most people in his situation experience.

 

You can assume what you want to, others are permitted to assume what they want, based on their interpretation of what's posted.

That is true but when you or anyone else calls me out by name I will respond.

 

How does she rebuild trust by concealing the truth from him?

How do the details do anymore than serve to feed his torment. I agree he needs to know she cheated but recount five years in every detail serves no purpose other than feeding the fire.

 

He has the "right" to do anything that is permitted by law. Yes he most certainly can "use" her past misconduct "against her"--do you possibly mean "hold her fully accountable" but want to blame shift and rationalize her behavior? Holding her accountable = using it against her?

No again, He can either make a valid attempt to save this marriage, if he chooses, and the burden is on her to prove herself but if he is in this to punish her, which is what I think your suggesting is, "his right", then the chances of resurrecting this marriage have decreased.

 

LOL now you're talking as if you're a colleague of and had some kind of a consultation with his MC. If you're a licensed professional and claiming to be one as a support for your opinion then recommending ANYTHING w/o actually having a real consultation with the subject is unethical, so you need to stop doing that.

No, I told the OP he might want to bring up his issue with his MC, (rather than consult LS), & that maybe seeing him separately for this issue is something he should talk to him about. At that point the OP stated his MC already recommended that very thing.

 

I'm VERY certain I have not even approached unethical behavior , even if I hadn't moved on to a teaching position .

Edited April 13, 2012 by oldguy

[oldguy]

 

What....what.....what???? The 30 year experienced marital counselor was divorced in his 40's???? Oh my. Since the rest of your post here doesn't make it sound like you are a dawg since you refrained from hitting on the 20-something when she gave you the green light, the only possible conclusion is your first wife must have cheated on you in an mlc and was a walkaway wife.

 

I'm very surprised that your well honed counseling abilities proved fruitless in your own relationship! (Not.)

 

Please let's all gather round and listen to old guy's wonderful wisdom!

 

 

Yes & medical doctors get sick & some of them even die once in awhile too.

My ex had some life issues that I admit I didn't recognize in time, I was too busy to notice. I was too busy to notice which was only one of the reasons I went into teaching, so I could pay more attention to what is important to me.

I lost the,then, love of my life because I didn't see the warning signs soon enough. But thank you Ham, thank you so VERY much for exploiting one of my most painful life experiences. What happen in your life to make you so bitter?

Never mind, I don't care.

[SomedayDig]

Ham...no, she admitted to flirting on girl's night on several occasions as I said before. In my mind, if she could have worked it out, I believe she easily would've hooked up with some other guy in a bar. And again, she is totally wrong in what she did, but it undeniable by looking at all the text messages that he was the one who initiated all of their encounters. I'm not saying she gets a pass whatsoever. She easily could've said no the first time. Truth is, she didn't. I did see where she said no a lot of times to him. Does that mean I go easy on her because she said no sometimes? Absolutely not!! I don't see that as just playing "hard to get", I see it as sometimes she just said no.

[drifter777]

OP: You are only 30 days out from d-day so your anger & confusion are to be expected. As you said, hearing "the truth of the past 5 years has been like drinking from a fire hose" and it's going to take you some time to process all of this. As has been suggested throughout this thread, you really should see an IC to help you sort out all of the strong emotions you are feeling right now.

Edited April 14, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[jnj express]

I am sure you know that at best this will take 2 to 5 yrs, and obviously there will NEVER be trust----the visions, are your sub-conscious filing in the gaps---they will not go away, as long as you are married as she is the trigger

 

The visions hit you when you are especially alone---3 am, while driving, at work---its the nature of the beast

 

You are not dealing with a ONS, or a short term A---you are dealing with a wife who put you in 2nd place for almost half of your mge

 

Know this also, your wife still thinks of this guy, and thinks of him plenty---she is not gonna get rid of a 5 yr. love A., anytime soon----so the real question now becomes---why is she staying, and trying to R., this mge----there are many reasons, and very few of them, will have her love for you as the answer---many of them, will still be for her selfish sel-preservation.

[SomedayDig]

Drifter...definitely asking the MC for her recommendation for an IC in the practice. I don't know if I've written this or not (and I'm too lazy to go look to be honest! lol) but I like this MC because she doesn't pull any punches with either my W or me. The one thing my W and I both agreed on is that we both must like and trust our MC if we really want it to work (the counseling that is). We have agreed that the MC is a good fit and I will be interested to see if the IC will be as helpful and whatnot. The processing of this stuff really sucks, however it is necessary. The blinders are off for good.

[SomedayDig]

jnj...the one thing I thought of today was how these images I get in my head are pretty much the same as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I will agree with you that I'm sure there are self preservation reasons for her to want to work on the M now, and while she has expressed love for me as an answer, I'm not going to blindly take her on that. She is going to have to prove it. Hell, she is going to have to prove a lot more than just that she loves me.

[nofool4u]

That is absolutely correct. It is up to her to earn his trust, every day for as long as that takes & after 5 years of cheating it will take a long time & that is clearly what they are in for.

 

And she got to cheat for 5 years, so she shouldn't expect it to go away in 5 months. She cheated for years, then she needs to expect to make it up to him for years to come.

 

 

That does not give him license to treat her like crap. that's simply vengeful & if he employs that there is NO chance this marriage will survive.

 

If by treating her like crap you mean things like calling her a cheating whore(which would be understandable during his initial shock and anger stage), then you are correct. If the marriage is to survive, then things like that shouldn't happen.

 

If by treating her like crap you mean he shouldn't be able to tell her that she cannot goe out with "the girls", sorry, thats a privilege she f***d up. She lost the benefit of a trusting husband. Now she needs to start acting like a wife and not a college sophomore.

Edited April 13, 2012 by nofool4u

[silktricks]

Like OWL I'm in a recovered marriage. Unlike OWL, I experienced "mind movies". I'd like to tell you, "do this" and it will all be better. I cannot. There is no easy fix.

 

I personally do not agree with counselors (even those who post here ) who say you shouldn't ask for details. I am of the opinion that you need to do whatever you need to do. For some people, that is asking for details. Does it make things "better"??? In the short run, no, it doesn't. It can make things unutterably worse in the short run. What it does do, however, is bring you face to face with the reality of exactly WHAT you need to forgive. Giving forgiveness to a crime of unknown dimensions was not credible for me. I (personally) could not forgive until I knew what I was forgiving, and I went down a long slow agonizing road to do it.

 

For me (not necessarily for you, or anyone else) but for me, I could not let go of the pain until I had filled myself up with it until I was sick. Sick of the pain, sick of the thoughts, sick of the worry, sick of everything. Then, and only then, did I actually start making progress back out of the muck.

 

When my husband first talked to me about the A he asked me if I'd ever be able to forgive him. I told him that it would depend on him. Would I be able to? Eventually, yes. Whether or not he'd been able to stick with me through whatever it would take was another question. He did. I did. We're very happy.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that what works for you is what works for you. What works for some unknown on the Internet, or even your own marriage counselor, may or may not work for you. You are at the very beginning of a long road, one that may end up well, but, to be honest, has a much better chance of ending at the edge of a precipice. Recovery is not for the faint of heart, or the poor in spirit. It's the hardest work you will EVER do, but it can be done, and you and your wife (if both of you have the guts for it) can end up with a happy, healthy marriage.

 

Best of luck to you both.

 

One last thing. There are a lot of people who say you will experience this, or you will experience that. They don't know what you will experience, as they are not you. They can only say what THEY experience. It may not have anything to do with YOUR experience. Your life is yours, theirs is theirs - don't confuse their opinion with your reality.

Edited April 13, 2012 by silktricks

[SomedayDig]

Thank you silk...very good reply and I agree with the giving forgiveness without at least SOME details doesn't work for me either. I NEED to know the scope and depth of her betrayal. At least to some degree. I need to know who she is and truly what she has done to hurt me so badly. I have stopped asking the extreme details, however. I guess knowing what they did when together is really immaterial. They screwed. Period. Doesn't really matter if he did her doggie style or she rode him. They screwed. In the end, that's all I really NEED to know about that.

[frozensprouts]

Thank you silk...very good reply and I agree with the giving forgiveness without at least SOME details doesn't work for me either. I NEED to know the scope and depth of her betrayal. At least to some degree. I need to know who she is and truly what she has done to hurt me so badly. I have stopped asking the extreme details, however. I guess knowing what they did when together is really immaterial. They screwed. Period. Doesn't really matter if he did her doggie style or she rode him. They screwed. In the end, that's all I really NEED to know about that.

 

once you feel you have all the information you need about the affair, you may end up viewing your wife differently than you did before...do you feel that you can live with that?

( I'm not trying to sound "snotty" when I ask...i just remember the feeling that my husband was not the person I thought he was, and that was so painful ( the "loss of innocence" described in another thread on here)...

 

about asking for details...one of the things our counselor recommended to us was for me to take a week and during that week, I was not to ask any questions, but rather to wrote them all down, and review them from time to time and add any more questions I needed the answers to. Then I was to give him that list, and he was to write the answers to me, and we would read the "collected works" at the next counseling appointment...that way, we'd each have time to think about our questions/answers, and we'd have a neutral third party there with us when we discussed them. It worked well for us, and we did it a few times and after a while i realized i was asking the same questions over and over, and the answers were always the same.

For a purely pragmatic reason I stopped asking questions for a while, but now, maybe every couple of months I'll maybe ask something, but there isn't the same "sting" for me in asking that there was before...

[oldguy]

And she got to cheat for 5 years, so she shouldn't expect it to go away in 5 months. She cheated for years, then she needs to expect to make it up to him for years to come.

You are correct, this will take a very long time I would think. She needs to prove herself everyday for as long as that takes.

 

If by treating her like crap you mean things like calling her a cheating whore(which would be understandable during his initial shock and anger stage), then you are correct. If the marriage is to survive, then things like that shouldn't happen.

 

If by treating her like crap you mean he shouldn't be able to tell her that she cannot goe out with "the girls", sorry, thats a privilege she f***d up. She lost the benefit of a trusting husband. Now she needs to start acting like a wife and not a college sophomore.

 

I completely agree; he shouldn't be calling her a cheating whore & she needs to do everything it takes to earn back his trust. Not going out with the girls is perfectly reasonable as he probably should not be trusting that that is all she will be doing.

[oldguy]

 

Dude: Your reaction is way over the top as I had no intention of attacking you, only disagreeing with you. Since you have opened the door, your pompous, condescending post's on this thread are the very definition of full-of-$hit.

Dude; If you had simply posted; "Your reaction is way over the top as I had no intention of attacking you, only disagreeing with you", you would have received an apology for misinterpreting your intent. However, with the inclusion of your second sentence I'm inclined to believe my initial interpretation may have been correct & my reaction was anything but over the top.

Edited April 14, 2012 by oldguy

[YellowShark]

...I agree with the giving forgiveness without at least SOME details doesn't work for me either. I NEED to know the scope and depth of her betrayal.

 

Nothing should be given. It must be earned. She must earn your trust, love, and forgiveness back... do not hand it to her on a silver platter. That is the consequence of her betrayal.

 

I have stopped asking the extreme details, however. I guess knowing what they did when together is really immaterial. They screwed. Period. Doesn't really matter if he did her doggie style or she rode him. They screwed. In the end, that's all I really NEED to know about that.

 

Yup. That's really all you need to know. She threw you under a bus for 5 years and was banging another man - even in your own home.

 

BTW - Don't ever let her use your flying as an excuse for her actions. Flying is how you pay the bills, put food on the table, and put clothes on her back. It is your career and not an excuse, or "out" for her to go bang some other dude. If she plays that card shut her down tout sweet, it is a way she might try to deflect some of her ownership in her unbelievably poor judgement.

[SomedayDig]

...her unbelievably poor judgement.

 

I like the way you put that Shark cuz that's exactly what it is. She has said something close to that when describing herself, but I don't think quite in those words. As for the flying, I don't want to make it out more than what it was. She said it made it easy for her to have the A because I was out of town a couple times a month. She didn't actually blame the job. It just made her A that much easier. And in a sense, I have so many bad feelings about literally giving her the opportunity while I was simply trying to take care of my family. Yeah, she's not getting anything on a silver platter. Matter of fact, yesterday seemed like a "good day" in the sense that I could really see her struggling with how she hurt me. She even wrote me a letter last night that expressed how deeply sorry she is for putting me/us through this bullsh_t. I'm basically going day by day at this point. Is it wrong for me to be "happy" to see her struggle? Not really happy, but...I need to see that from her.

[SomedayDig]

once you feel you have all the information you need about the affair, you may end up viewing your wife differently than you did before...do you feel that you can live with that?

 

I already see her in a different light, so I have accepted that she is not the same woman that I married. My goal is to rediscover my wife and she has promised transparency and complete honesty. I have made it abundantly clear, however, that if anything remotely close to this ever happens again, that I am out the door. I do feel that she has heard that loud and clear over the past several days. I've even asked her "Do you understand what I am saying here" after I've said it, and asked her to repeat it. I've definitely noticed a big change in her behavior/attitude towards me this week. She knows I'm not BS'ng her.

[YellowShark]

As for the flying, I don't want to make it out more than what it was. She said it made it easy for her to have the A because I was out of town a couple times a month. She didn't actually blame the job. It just made her A that much easier.

 

Ya. While you were doing your duty to support her and the family she was sucking another man's __________. It wasn't the job, it was her taking advantage of your job while you were away.

 

And in a sense, I have so many bad feelings about literally giving her the opportunity while I was simply trying to take care of my family.

 

Full stop. You should have ZERO bad feelings about that. You being away does not give her a free pass to have an affair. You did nothing wrong, in fact you were doing everything right by her. Your job payed the bills. Her bills too!

 

Yeah, she's not getting anything on a silver platter. Matter of fact, yesterday seemed like a "good day" in the sense that I could really see her struggling with how she hurt me. She even wrote me a letter last night that expressed how deeply sorry she is for putting me/us through this bullsh_t. I'm basically going day by day at this point. Is it wrong for me to be "happy" to see her struggle? Not really happy, but...I need to see that from her.

 

She hurt you. Badly. The sad part is it took you busting her for it to stop otherwise it would still be going on. Remember that. Had you not stopped her she would still be betraying you. Damn rights she should feel bad, hope she feels awful. Most wayward spouses have no f-ing idea how devastating it is to find out the closest person to you can look you in the eye while they are betraying you.

 

For me I just couldn't forgive my EX. She crossed too many red lines in the sand.. I wasn't willing to take her back. I was in love with who she was... not who she became. The person she became was sick, and frankly evil. I didn't want to have a lying, cheating woman who had no respect for me, the kids, our social group, or her AP's wife for an emotional and financial partner in life. So I bailed. That's just how I handled my situation because once a cheater not always a cheater... twice a cheater, ALWAYS a cheater.

[SomedayDig]

Full stop. You should have ZERO bad feelings about that. You being away does not give her a free pass to have an affair. You did nothing wrong, in fact you were doing everything right by her. Your job payed the bills. Her bills too!

 

Thanks. I needed that. Truly.

[Bryanp]

I just read where she brought the OM to your home at least 3 times to have sex in the basement spare room. I am sorry but this is monumental. The symbolism of bringing your lover into your marital home to have sex is the absolute maximum in humiliation, disrespect and distain to your spouse. Clearly she knew what she was doing and the meaning of it. For most spouse this would have to be a deal breaker. I just don't see how you could ever forgive such a thing. Nevertheless I do wish you the best.

[oldguy]

...............................

You and I disagree primarily on the point of disclosure or the details of every encounter she had with the OM and I would even go so far as to agree with you on his right to know but my concern is that this behavior is not consistent with emotional healing. At what point in your experience does this become constructive & allow the relationship to begin healing and have you honestly seen this work towards saving a relationship? Because that is what the OP wants, forget how you & I "feel" or what we would do, I'm addressing the OP from his point of view that he wants to put in the effort to save this marriage & that means he will have to put in a lot of effort too, as totally unfair as that is since he isn't the one who was out there cheating.

Now if the OP said he was done & wanted out I would probably urge him to get a good attorney & maybe even a PI to get all the dirt he could & take everything including the kids.

I wasn't being sarcastic or facetious about wanting to know if in your experience has constantly grilling a cheater about every detail of their affair saved a relationship? I'm honestly curious.

 

Oh, my concern with the details is also based on the OP title concern about "the movie playing in his head". I'm not trying to help his cheating wife from reliving this, my genuine concern is what this will do to the OP & the relationship he would like to save. I don't understand how hearing each & every detail of what she did, to & with the OM for the next 40 years is going to do anything but keep the wounds open. Ya, the OP's situation truly SUCKs & in the long run it may be better to walk away, but that isn't what HE want's today.

Edited April 14, 2012 by oldguy

[Ninja'sHusband]

So the A is her fault, for sure. She chose to do what she did, you didn't.

 

I thought I'd share this clip from Harley's book "Love Busters" though:

Any career that takes you away from your spouse overnight is dangerous to the health of your marriage. The more often you're gone, the more dangerous it is. That's because most of the important emotional needs are usually met in the evening, and when you're apart they can't easily be met, Love Bank balances fall, and if a couple eventually falls out of love, the no longer feel like meeting each other's needs, even when they are together.

 

But you risk more than the loss of love when you are apart overnight. You also risk infidelity. I can thank the airline industry for giving me the opportunity to make a living as a marriage counselor. By being separated from their spouses overnight, pilots and flight attendants helped me become an expert on the subject of infidelity, because many of these folks were having affairs in almost every way possible. They also gave me confidence in my methods, since they provided such a difficult testing ground, and the methods I used proved sucessful even under those conditions.

 

Here's the source:

Love Busters: Protecting Your Marriage from Habits That Destroy Romantic Love - Willard F. Harley, Jr. - Google Books

[Artie Lang]

first time poster.

 

5 YEARS! Holy *****!

 

this guy was bangin' your wife for half of your marriage, dude. that means that half of your marriage was a lie, which means you've only really been married for 7 years.

 

 

@Yellow Shark:

 

you say that your x-wife is still in the affair. is she part of an open-marriage dynamic?

 

i can only surmize your x- neighbor is on some kind of high right now, given that he's allowed to bang two chicks without any reprecussions/ consequences. he didn't even lose his satanding with these so-called "friends" you both had. what a cluster****, indeed.

 

have you ever confronted this pos?

[YellowShark]

@Yellow Shark:

 

you say that your x-wife is still in the affair. is she part of an open-marriage dynamic?

 

i can only surmize your x- neighbor is on some kind of high right now, given that he's allowed to bang two chicks without any reprecussions/ consequences. he didn't even lose his satanding with these so-called "friends" you both had. what a cluster****, indeed.

 

have you ever confronted this pos?

 

First of all... Ba Ba Booey to ya' all!

 

I don't want to hijack the thread but to answer you question my EX and OM didn't skip a beat. Pretended like nothing happened and claimed to all-who-would-listen that I made it all up. (BTW.. I caught them in the act and did inform OM's wife in person the next day.)

 

Anyhow they were pretty good at this charade because it had already been going on for about a year. So it wasn't hard for them to continue on as they were. (..and they pretty well did.)

 

I didn't confront "the POS" because I caught them together. That was the last time I spoke to him. Last time I will ever. Not worth my time or effort. Good riddance. If he can stab me in the back, betray his wife and the dynamic of the social group, I don't want that kinda guy in my world anyways.

 

Same with my EX, if she want's him so bad and drive a bus over me to be with him, then be my guest. Don't want her in my world either. Life is too short and I am no ones' bitch.

[oldguy]

Have you ever seen "A Clockwork Orange"?

:laugh:Very good, I actually thought that is what you where suggesting. Information overload, desensitizing unpleasant experiences by overloading the senses with them. I know it's has been tried extensively with people suffering extreme cases of PTSD & has been proven ineffective if not detrimental. I think it works best to get over mild phobias though, fear of snakes, that sort of thing. I also, personally think it's cruel.

 

Back to A Clockwork Orange; A good fictional flick but I got the impression the lead character, (I don't remember his name), was never actually cured in the end.

Edited April 16, 2012 by oldguy