For those who think Jesus is a myth...

[BetheButterfly]

I don't think the real issue is whether Jesus is a myth; the real issue is whether or not the version of God presented in the New Testament (and the Old for that matter) is accurate.

 

 

Hello Fugu,

 

The reason I asked because it does seem that some people do consider Jesus to be a myth, and I was wondering why, since there is historical evidence of his existence.

 

The question is whether Jesus' followers were really following the word of God or whether they just happened to be a cult claiming to represent God. Anyone can claim to know God. Anyone can write a book in which they spread the word of the God they claim to know. As far as anyone knows, the Bible was written by humans, not God.

 

 

True and good point

 

It was written decades after Jesus supposedly died.

 

The apostles of Jesus were all descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For a long time, their people had preserved the manuscripts that make up the Tanakh, adding to their Scripture as prophets prophesied. Memorization and oral recitation is very important in the Jewish culture, one reason for this purpose, of preserving their sacred Scriptures.

 

Jesus' apostles and disciples told other people about what Jesus did and said. The gospels are basically that - accounts of what Jesus did and said. I do believe that they were written down as mere accounts during the apostles' lifetime, and then put together later to form the various gospels we have today in the Bible.

 

Paul's letters were written in his time, to the Christians in different cities of the Gentile world. So, even though the New Testament was formed after the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus died, it is important to note that the apostles did indeed tell others what Jesus said and did. That was their life mission until they died.

 

Parts of the original Bible are missing. Other parts have been edited and lost in translation. This has been researched thoroughly by historians, who have studied the history of Jesus, a historical 'person', or at least a historical figure.

 

Sadly, in that time there were no computers. If so, it would have been so much easier to preserve Scripture! However, just as the Jewish people have done a wonderful job in preserving the Tanakh for thousands of years, so I believe that the Jewish and Gentile Christians preserved the Scripture, even though the originals are no longer in print.

 

I think there's a lot of wisdom contained in the Bible. I look at it as a document written by humans who were genuinely interested in cultivating a philosophical movement. I think these people also wanted a source that could serve to regulate human behavior, something that would serve as an alternative to the law itself. A kind of law that overlay the laws that were enforced. They wanted inspiration.

 

The Bible is a wonder in that it involves many different people and time periods. It is not just a document written/dictated by one person and one time period. So yes, it includes document "written by humans". however, I don't think they were so much interested in philosophy as they were in wanting to know what God required of them. The prophets of the Jewish people were pretty clear in striving to lead the people in God's requirements, and the apostles of Jesus were pretty clear in striving to show that Jesus is the fulfillment of many of the prophesies of the prophets.

 

 

But the word of God is a stretch. Nobody really knows what God is. I believe I have some clues, but I can't even prove God's existence. I can't even define God. Nobody can.

 

There are many people who would disagree with you. Jesus, in John 4, said that God is Spirit. So, that defines to most Christians that God is indeed Spirit. Based on my personal experiences and the personal experiences of other people, that has proved to myself that God does indeed exist. I can define Him in being all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere, limitless in time and space, merciful, loving, good, just, pure, righteous, and the list goes on and on.

 

All Christians have is their faith in some idea, which is based on dogma that is incomplete and controversial

 

Basically one could say that many things are incomplete and controversial, such as politics and personal tastes. However, for Christians who are Christians heart and soul, they do consider their belief to be incomplete until they see Heaven. Concerning controversial, arguing over which flower is the prettiest can be just as controversial...

It's just not enough to convince me to join

 

Jesus made it clear that only those who have been enabled by the Father (God), can.

 

John 6:64-65(NIV)

 

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

and I resent the fact that my life is affected by someone else's perceptions of the way the world ought to be, all because some group of very mortal and long-since dead people claimed to hear the word of God 2,000 years ago, in a time and place far removed from where we are now.

 

I resent the fact that my life is affected by someone else's perceptions that sexually abusing children is ok, for whatever reason they have. However, my life being affected through being sad at this horrific crime being committed against children around the world just inspires me to strive even more to obey Jesus' teachings of helping those in need, which includes these hurt kids.

 

Anyways, thankfully, freedom of religion is a right that people are understanding more and more. Thankfully in most Western countries, a person is free to believe what he or she believes is true, whether that's Judaism or Christianity or Islam or Atheist or Buddhist or Agnostic or Hindu and so on.

 

Since we all live on this earth together, it is important that we respect each other and each others' right to believe differently.

[BetheButterfly]

I've been reading this thread and find it all very interesting.

 

I don't believe Jesus is a myth. I believe he existed, he was born, grew up, did many outstading and outlandish things and was crucified.

 

 

When I read the Bible, I get answers to questions I have. I instinctively know that certain things are true. There are others I read and I know for sure they aren't.

 

I am curious. What are some things you have read in the Bible that you know are true and others that you know are not, and how do you know instinctively? Thanks.

I believe in God by pure faith.

That's an interesting statement. I have to confess that I don't believe in God by pure faith alone. I do believe in God by faith yes but also through logic in that I cannot understand the amazing life on earth without acknowledging an Intelligent Designer. Also, logic encourages me to credit the faith of other people to their personally knowing a Supreme Being that is greater than humans.

 

However, it is that same faith that doesn't allow me to believe the story about Jesus. That same inner being questions the truth about the events that occurred. Jesus performing miracles was unusual but not unheard of. Others before him did too, and so did others after him. So while it makes him special, it doesn't in my mind make him more special than the other prophets before him.

Christians believe that Jesus fulfills prophesies/promises such as the one about the prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18, John 1, Acts 3) the Messiah, Son of God (1 Samuel 7, 2 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89), the child being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7). Although most Jewish people today do not believe that Jesus fulfills these and/or have different interpretations as to what those prophesies/promises mean, the apostles of Jesus and first disciples were Jewish. Nowadays most Christians are Gentiles, which is interesting, but there are some Jewish Christians as well. So, to Christians, Jesus' fulfilling these prophesies/promises does make him more special than the other prophets to us.

 

Because I love to read, I love to dig deeper and seek knowledge,

That's awesome!!! Me too

I'm a bit more knowledgable of the political climate that existed in the time of Jesus. When one looks at the events occurring in parallel and tries to view it from the Roman perspective or even the Jewish one, Jesus was a rebel leader. The Pharisees believed he was trying to change religion, usurping their places as the ones who "know" the right way. The Romans listened to the Jews and saw a potential leader in the making. Someone who could bring the rich and poor together using their belief in the One God and who could eventually forment a formidable resistance to their rule.

That is a very good and interesting point, and one in which helps me understand why many Jewish people decided Jesus was not the Messiah promised to King David. For most Jewish people, the Messiah is a man who would rescue the children of Israel from their enemies. Even though Jesus had the charisma and followers and amazing demonstrations of God's power, he did not rescue his people from the Romans.

 

In this kind of climate, it became increasingly dangerous to be associated with followers of Jesus. But the stories lived on in an oral form. How much of the story is real and how much is code for what happened? I don't know. I just know that as a teacher of humanity, Jesus was one of the best.

 

I agree that Jesus is one of the best teachers of humanity!

 

Too much of the story reads like a parable in itself. Was Jesus indeed confronted by the Devil and offered all the bread and riches in the world to cease his fast? Or is this a parable describing his inner turmoil in the midst of starvation and his great ability to keep going?

 

The way the story is told doesn't explain the timelines properly. Did Jesus discover a traitor amongs them just before he was betrayed, or did he know about it from the beginning? If he only discovered it before the last supper, then it would have been too late to counter Judas and Jesus' arrest makes sense. If instead as the Chruch likes us to believe he was aware of the said plan all along, then Jesus should have done everything possible to avoid arrest at that time. Why? His work wasn't done yet, IMO. And that's another story.

I do believe that Jesus was indeed confronted by the devil, and that he knew about the traitor, as well as knew the thoughts of all the people around him. That is true that his work was not done yet, which is why Jesus did not avoid arrest at that time, though he did avoid being forced to become king in another time, as well as avoid being stoned at another time.

 

Lastly, for an omniscient, omnipotent God to come up with such a complicated plan for His Son no less to bring forth the light in the world makes absolutely no sense.

As a human who is not on the same level as God, I can't be the judge of that. Unless I am omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, I can't accurately judge a Being who is, same as I don't believe ants can accurately judge human beings.

 

Countless of prophets had done the same before. They'd brought messages, showed the people the way and died leaving a lot of people either ignorant or in doubt. If indeed this was God's attempt at creating a fundamental change, why would He send His Son to operate like all other prophets? Why not a more effective plan?

I believe God knows the whole picture, whereas people are teeny tiny little specks compared to God, and see only a teeny tiny bit of their teeny tiny part of the picture.

 

While my faith makes me certain that the lessons to be learned from the life of Jesus are valid, it is that same faith that makes me "understand" that all is not what it seems. That the church has molded Christianity into something that was never meant to exist. The many principles of the church have no basis whatsoever in the Bible I read. Most of our Christian holidays, symbols and rituals have absolutely no basis in the Bible. In fact, by virtue of elevating Jesus to the point of being the ONLY WAY, I fear we very easily miss the point of his existence.

I do agree that some principles of the church today do not have a strong basis from the Bible.

 

So to me, the myth isn't that Jesus existed. The myth is the whole story about what he came to do, why he did what he did and what he left behind for us as human beings. We built the myth, He never did. We elevated him beyond everyone, He never did. We continue a religion based on Him, but he never started it.

He actually did elevate himself by saying that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and that nobody can come to the Father but through him. However, I understand that you do not believe that he said that, correct?

 

Regardless, thankfully people have freedom to believe what they believe is true, whether believing in Jesus being the Way, the Truth, and the Life, or not. Thanks for the interesting discussion. You raised some very good points.

[Radu]

Hello,

 

For those who think Jesus is a myth, could you please provide references as to why you think so? Thanks

 

Also, what exactly about Jesus do you think is a myth?

 

His existence?

i don't think his existence is a myth

The miracles of healing?

this is a mixed bag, ppl have been known to improve greatly once they believe they will get cured with every fiber of their being, but that some divine force makes this healing work ... no, i don't believe that

The Messianic prophesies in the Tanakh that Christians associate with Jesus?

i don't know what that is

All of the above?

nope

 

Could you please post links with solid references that support your claim?

 

Since we are for the most part all adults, the objective of any interfaith discussion or discussion concerning beliefs is best and most enjoyable when done without insults and with concrete references as to why one believes what one believes. Thanks.

 

Peace and God bless

 

I believe him being the son of God is a myth, i believe he was just a normal human being, albeit a remarcable revolutionary.

I also find it idiotic that a ****ed up adventurer like Che Guevara ended up as the face of freedom when He managed to truly change the world.

[thatone]

I am curious. What are some things you have read in the Bible that you know are true and others that you know are not, and how do you know instinctively? Thanks.

 

we know, archaeologically, that david and solomon did not exist as they are depicted in the bible, if at all.

 

if they did exist, they were in control of no more than a few small villages and were conquered by egyptian invaders even before babylon. there have been historical records unearthed from lesser pharoahs depicting the conquering of small areas around the time given for the rule of david/solomon, and the egyptians took little note of them as they rolled over them.

 

there's no evidence that abraham and moses existed at all, nor that the exodus ever happened.

 

furthermore, in the mid 70s tablets were unearthed in syria depicting the SAME NAMES assigned to these biblical mortals, only problem is on the tablets they were depicted as canaanite gods a few centuries before.

 

so for any person capable of making a logical decision regarding all of this, the story is pretty clear. none of this stuff ever really happened. jesus probably lived, and people latched on to his story after his death because he successfully challenged rome in a way no one had before. later romans themselves latch on to the story of jesus to use it for political power themselves, and after some success the teachings of jesus become the roman church. the rest is history.

 

so my general opinion is, if people want to take note of the ideas of jesus, that's all fine and good. but as a historical account, the bible has zero merit, because a good majority of the things depicted in it never happened, and even the bits about jesus must be taken with a very large grain of salt, because we simply don't know how much of it is true and how much of it was conjured in rome.

[trist]

so a little boy walked up to a pastor and asked him, "if Adam and Eve were the only two people on the planet, and then they had babies, who did their babies have babies with when they go older? "

 

and then the second question was; "where do the dinosaurs come in during Noah's arc? how would they fit a boy and a girl brontosaurus and then a boy and girl tyrannous saurus Rex into the same arc?"

[kt66]

The bible is fiction

 

There is no God, or proof

 

Jesus is a character who goes back tens of thousands of years.

 

Religion is the biggest organised crime in the world.

 

Why is the USA the last place in the west that still believes all this fiction?

[Radu]

so a little boy walked up to a pastor and asked him, "if Adam and Eve were the only two people on the planet, and then they had babies, who did their babies have babies with when they go older? "

 

and then the second question was; "where do the dinosaurs come in during Noah's arc? how would they fit a boy and a girl brontosaurus and then a boy and girl tyrannous saurus Rex into the same arc?"

 

To quote Bill Hicks when he asked the same question :

- those were put there by God to test our faith in Him

- i think you were put here to test my faith

 

I love asking the Adam and Eve question to religious ppl.

[TaraMaiden]

To quote Bill Hicks when he asked the same question :

- those were put there by God to test our faith in Him

- i think you were put here to test my faith

 

I love asking the Adam and Eve question to religious ppl.

 

That would be a wonderful retort and very quick on the wit and repartee, except it evades and diverts the question, attempts to make the questioner look foolish, and actually isn't a very clever response at all....

 

I'd respect "I don't know" a lot more.

[Radu]

That would be a wonderful retort and very quick on the wit and repartee, except it evades and diverts the question, attempts to make the questioner look foolish, and actually isn't a very clever response at all....

 

I'd respect "I don't know" a lot more.

 

You are seeing 5% of that material communicated over text on the internet.

Comedy also uses the rest of communication which is tonality and body language.

 

Furthermore, you can't please everyone ... it's better to not even try.

Please those that matter to you and with whom you've selected as your friends.

[TaraMaiden]

OK, yeah...hang on.....

 

 

 

.....let me picture it.....

 

 

 

 

Nah....it's still not funny, and it certainly isn't clever.

[silvermane187]

This is why I'm an atheist.

 

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate the idea that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claimed that a teapot were orbiting the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it would be nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they could not prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred to in discussions concerning the existence of God.

The bible is proof of nothing. There is no way to prove the crazy stuff in it, blind faith is exactly that, blind. Religious fundamentalists are usually uneducated and lack critical thinking. The leaders of organized religion use as a tool to control the hearts and minds of people they wish to control for their own means. Eventually the human species will evolve far enough where the modern major religious are considered nothing more than cults to be laughed at and mocked, much in the way scientology and mormonism is viewed today. Edited May 17, 2012 by silvermane187

[wuggle]

There is evidence to support that Jesus actually existed and most, even hardcore atheists such as myself, don't refute it. What is a myth is that he was the son if god. There is no god. There is no heaven.

 

As an atheist myself this is very much my opinion.

 

Jesus was no more special than you or I. He was just another shyster who used religion as a way to con people gullible enough to listen.

 

But this isn't. I am happpier going with quanks versin of Jesus on the first page. I do NOT believe that Jesus was God, as I do not believe in god, but as a person of his times I can happily accept that steeped in the importance of religion as his society was, jesus may well have beleived himself to be god, I am happy to accept that some 'mystical' (to him) events led him to beleive this. To his credit, he then turned out to do some pretty nice stuff, he can't be described as a shyster as he didn't try using his 'godliness' for his benefit. The poor guy was even prepared to be crucified for his beliefs.

 

Very unfair to call him a shyster, I believe he was genuine in his mistaken beleifs.

 

Turn on your TV any Sunday morning and you'll see plenty of frauds just like him trying to get your money.

 

Sadly, I agree with this. It may be fair to call some of the people who 'wrote' and promoted the bible for the past 2000 years 'shysters', but again sadly I believe a good many of them genuinly did beleive. I think they were completely wrong , but genuine.

[Stupid Girl]

OP, you realize everything you're saying is a complete logical fallacy, right? To quote something I read somewhere that amused me, and is also very relevant to the discussion, "using the bible to prove Jesus is real is like using Lord of the Rings to prove hobbits are real."

 

Show me proof the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't our true lord and saviour and then we'll talk.

[Taramere]

Hello,

 

For those who think Jesus is a myth, could you please provide references as to why you think so? Thanks

 

Also, what exactly about Jesus do you think is a myth?

 

His existence?

 

Lots of people called Jesus have existed. I've often heard that there's evidence that somebody called Jesus existed and had a major following. I'm willing to believe that.

 

The miracles of healing?

 

The mind and the power of positive thinking can sometimes produce surprising results. Gossip and major exaggeration would do the rest (in terms of spreading news about a miracle healer).

 

[i think Christianity is a good philosophy, and certainly a better one than some of the philosophies that have been pushed at us in more recent centuries. The Old Testament was such a heinously punitive approach that there was evidently a need for a new and less crazy philosophy to develop and challenge it (while appearing not to challenge it). I take my hat off to Jesus and his team for that.

 

I'm also willing to believe that he felt so strongly about it all that he sacrificed his life...and humanity owes him an eternal debt for this. I just don't believe in the afterlife. Over the years, scientific knowledge has helped people to understand occurrences that were previously explained by the existence of gods or of magic.

 

The progress of humanity (in terms of science and technology) has taken place thanks to people who were not satisfied with the notion that magic/God was responsible for everything we didn't understand.

 

I think a lot of people derive great comfort, strength and a sense of identity from their faith which is generally a positive thing. I also think it's possible to subscribe to a particular faith as a means to having one's own moral code....again, I see Christianity as a moral code.

 

I think it's less positive if it encourages people to believe in the magic and supernatural forces that would be required to exist for there to be an afterlife. Beliefs of that sort can be a bit too encouraging of intellectual laziness and a fatalistic approach to life.

 

If I need peace, consolation or reassurance I tend to get it from music, nature, art, reading and the company of people I like rather than believing in supernatural possibilities.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Taramere

[BetheButterfly]

The bible is fiction

 

The Bible is a collection of manuscripts that are very important and dear to people who for centuries have preserved them. The Old Testament of the Christian Bible, or the Jewish Bible, contains historic accounts, as well as the Laws that the children of Israel (the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) had through Moses, as well as documents from prophets throughout their amazing history.

 

Now, do you believe that Jewish people are fiction? The ancestors of the Jewish people (Jewish is the term that people nowadays call the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel) were the ones who preserved these sacred documents. You can disrespect them all you want and claim they are fiction, same as how it is possible thousands of years from now, people can claim that history books of the USA are fiction.

 

Back to the Christian Bible, accounts of what Jesus said and did, as well as what the apostles and disciples of Jesus said and did, are in the New Testament. Although rejected by many Jewish people of that time (and of today as well), there is most definitely historical evidence that a Jewish man who claimed to be the Messiah (Christ) died, and that his apostles/disciples believed that God rose him from the dead, and preached about him. Again, you can call that fiction, just as it is possible maybe someone in the future might call Martin Luther King Jr. a "character".

 

There is no God, or proof

 

It seems to me that proof depends on the person. There are many highly intelligent, wonderful people who believe God exists, and their proof lies in their personal experiences. Interestingly, many people who believe God exists have set the foundation for helping other people. For example, William Wilberforce, a man who believed in God, helped make slavery illegal in the UK. The Red Cross, the YMCA, many hospitals, and many schools, were founded by people who believed in God. Now, people can and definitely have the right to disagree with the people who do believe in God and consider the proof to be their own personal experiences. However, please note that a person can also say "There is no love, or proof" based on personal experiences as well as a person can say "There is love, and I have proof" based on personal experiences. So, just because one person has one experience, that does not negate the experience of another.

Jesus is a character who goes back tens of thousands of years.

 

Tens of thousands? Are you meaning 2 thousand? Interestingly since around 525, keeping track of years from Rome to Western countries had been centered on Jesus. BC = Before Christ AD = Anno Domini, which means, 'in the year of our Lord'. Even till today, there are people who use BC and AD concerning keeping track of years.

 

Now, the question one might ask is, why was Jesus so important? Well, to many people both in Jesus' time up to this day, Jesus wasn't/isn't important. However, to Jesus' disciples, he was VERY IMPORTANT. He was so important that they told people what Jesus said and did, and it spread like wildfire across the Roman occupied world. Because the Roman conquests reached into Europe, Christianity spread there as well. The rest is history.

Religion is the biggest organised crime in the world.

 

It is true that sadly many religious people commit crimes. It's important however to understand what crime means. Crime = trespassing the law. Now, if a country's law states "no Christians", and people dare to be Christians, then yes that's a crime. However, some laws are unjust. Thank God, now in many countries, people have freedom to do what before was a considered crime.

Why is the USA the last place in the west that still believes all this fiction?

 

There are people all over the world who believe in God, who you consider to be fiction. As for the USA being the "last place in the west", I am curious if you have ever been to Canada or México or any country in South/Central America? Why exactly do you consider the USA to be the last place in the West...? Do you think there are no people in Canada or the other countries in the Western hemisphere (or countries in Western Europe) who believe in God?

[BetheButterfly]

Lots of people called Jesus have existed. I've often heard that there's evidence that somebody called Jesus existed and had a major following. I'm willing to believe that.

 

Actually, Jesus is merely the English translation of his name. Many Biblical scholars believe his name was either Yeshua or Joshua or Eashoa', but in Hebrew or Aramaic. Jesus, a Jewish man, spoke Aramaic, and many Biblical scholars believe he also spoke Hebrew. But yes, there were definitely many people with his name. It was not an unusual name at all, and this "Jesus" in specific had (and still does have) a major following.

 

The mind and the power of positive thinking can sometimes produce surprising results. Gossip and major exaggeration would do the rest (in terms of spreading news about a miracle healer).

Good point.

 

[i think Christianity is a good philosophy, and certainly a better one than some of the philosophies that have been pushed at us in more recent centuries.

I am curious as to which philosophies you mean? (I do agree with you though... I personally think that Christianity is a wonderful philosophy, especially in the focusing on love category, and helping people. Jesus emphasized loving God and others, and helping those in need, which I think is awesome!) There are many people who have helped make the world a better place through this philosophy.

 

 

The Old Testament was such a heinously punitive approach that there was evidently a need for a new and less crazy philosophy to develop and challenge it (while appearing not to challenge it).

Ouch. I think it's hard for some Jewish people who believe in G-d and the Tanakh. However, I understand the logic of your statement, though I don't agree on some levels.

 

I take my hat off to Jesus and his team for that.

Actually, and this is where it gets interesting, there would be no foundation for Jesus, nor even a reason for Jesus, without the Old Testament, or the Tanakh. The reason is because Jesus claimed to fulfill/that he will fulfill the prophesies/promises given in the Tanakh. So, it is interesting that the Old Testament, which definitely does contain harsh treatment of different people, also is the foundation for which Jesus came.

 

I'm also willing to believe that he felt so strongly about it all that he sacrificed his life...and humanity owes him an eternal debt for this. I just don't believe in the afterlife. Over the years, scientific knowledge has helped people to understand occurrences that were previously explained by the existence of gods or of magic.

Understood. I believe in the afterlife without actually having ever gone there, but I completely understand how other people just believe nothing awaits us after death. To me though, that is a very empty and unfulfilling thought.

 

The progress of humanity (in terms of science and technology) has taken place thanks to people who were not satisfied with the notion that magic/God was responsible for everything we didn't understand.

There have been and are people who believe in God (and not magic) who have discovered great things. For example, the Wright brothers, as far as I know, believed in God. Also, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Max Planck, William Thomson Kelvin, Gregor Mendel, Michael Faraday, Robert Boyle, Blaise Pascal, Rene Descartes, Johannes Kepler, , Sir Francis Bacon, Galileo, and others believed in God.

 

Alexander Graham Bell, the official inventor of the telephone, said the following quote which I love,“God has strewn our paths with wonders and we certainly should not go through Life with our eyes shut.”

― Alexander Graham Bell

 

Because of the people of the past who believed in God and yet grew in understanding of science and invented the base of technology today, I personally think that it is the freedom to explore and study that helped in these areas.

 

I think a lot of people derive great comfort, strength and a sense of identity from their faith which is generally a positive thing. I also think it's possible to subscribe to a particular faith as a means to having one's own moral code....again, I see Christianity as a moral code.

Agreed

 

I think it's less positive if it encourages people to believe in the magic and supernatural forces that would be required to exist for there to be an afterlife. Beliefs of that sort can be a bit too encouraging of intellectual laziness and a fatalistic approach to life.

There are people who believe in God who are intellectuals, like C.S. Lewis for example. There are also those who sad to say do have a fatalistic approach. People are diverse, but yes I understand your point.

 

If I need peace, consolation or reassurance I tend to get it from music, nature, art, reading and the company of people I like rather than believing in supernatural possibilities

There are many people who believe in God who also enjoy music, nature, art, reading, and company and believe all are gifts from God. However, it is true that one does not need to believe in God in order to enjoy these wonderful and essential (in my opinion) areas of life!

 

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I greatly enjoyed reading your post and understand, I think, your points, which are very good.

Edited May 29, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[thatone]

no, you don't get to paint that sunshine and roses picture.

 

it was the church that jailed galileo for telling them that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

it was the church who told people that cats were demons and that was the cause of the black plague, leading to millions more dead.

it was the religious conservatives who fought the hubble space telescope tooth and nail because they don't want people to learn about the rest of the universe, it drives said people away from the church.

it's the church who rails against stem cell study and usage, because they'd rather see people dead than have to compromise one of their political issues.

[BetheButterfly]

no, you don't get to paint that sunshine and roses picture.

 

Hello Thatone,

 

? If there are sunshine and roses, why not paint them? There are indeed "sunshine and roses" among people who believe in God. It would be very untruthful to not paint "sunshine and roses" if they did indeed exist, and only paint storms and thorns, without the sunshine and roses, hmm?

 

it was the church that jailed galileo for telling them that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

 

Do you think that Galileo did not believe in God?

 

Yes, the church leaders of that time were corrupt and restricting. They did not understand the importance of freedom to explore and study nature. They were wrong. However, Jesus did not teach to jail people. He taught love, love for God and love for others.

 

it was the church who told people that cats were demons and that was the cause of the black plague, leading to millions more dead.

 

Beliefs similar to these were around way before the church even existed. It is therefore not surprising that many people continued to believe ideas after the church was formed. In Egypt, cats were considered lucky and a symbol of power. In Celtic Druidism, cats were "given" a magical meaning, which is why it is possible the "church" thought that, based on the Druidism prevalent in Europe, they were "demons". However, it is important to note that Jesus' teachings did not include cats being demons. That was something influenced by the ancient beliefs of peoples before Gentiles began to accept Jesus as their Savior. Interestingly, many Gentiles brought some very weird ideas with them.

 

According to Celtic Spiritual Beliefs, (I boldened some)

 

"The Cat represents guardianship, detachment and sensuality. The Goddess Brighid had a cat as a companion. Because the cat was associated with the Goddess and the feminine, the cat was sometimes perceived as "unholy". The cat's ability to see and work in the spirit-world makes the cat an ideal ally for a magician. The Church's fear of such powers resulted in the torture and death of thousands of cats in Britain and France. However, the cat was used as a family totem in many Scottish clans. "

 

Sadly, the "church" did not follow Jesus' teachings. Jesus never ever taught people to torture cats or regard them as unholy. Jesus' culture was Jewish. He, a Jewish man, was born in Bethlehem, raised in Nazareth, and taught in Jerusalem as well as other places in Israel. In Jewish culture, the torture of cats was not taught at all. Dogs were also not tortured, they were just considered unclean and not kosher to eat.

 

So, this torture and fear of cats does not come Jesus' teachings, which is what Christianity is all about, but rather is influenced by the fear of individuals who do not understand Jesus' teachings, but rather struggle in understanding the differences between other beliefs, and the belief in Jesus being the fulfillment of Messianic promises.

 

it was the religious conservatives who fought the hubble space telescope tooth and nail because they don't want people to learn about the rest of the universe, it drives said people away from the church.

 

As a Christian, I personally do not understand why some religious conservatives fight against technology. Many Christians, including Isaac Newton, the Wright Brothers and Alexander Graham Bell, made great leaps for science and technology!

 

 

it's the church who rails against stem cell study and usage, because they'd rather see people dead than have to compromise one of their political issues.

 

Well, all people do end up dead, don't they? That's just a reality of life... part of the cycle of life. What bothers many Christians is the killing of an unborn baby in the womb. That is the issue for many concerning stem cell study, which is a different topic altogether.

[thatone]

but where we disconnect is that i can point to example after example after example of how the church does more harm than good.

 

the church has never (and will never) be able to exist without attempting to exercise political power by oppressing those they judge. that's why the two sides, atheist and religious, will eventually be at odds with each other wherever they are not already at odds with each other and eventually religion will lose.

 

we cannot progress as a society and a species while holding on to medieval beliefs.

 

so medieval beliefs will eventually have to go by the wayside as they are marginalized from generation to generation.

[BetheButterfly]

but where we disconnect is that i can point to example after example after example of how the church does more harm than good.

 

Churches are just like people: they are diverse. Just as there are "good" and "bad" people of every belief, so there are "good" and "bad" churches.

 

Why is that? I think it is because churches are full of ... people.

 

You are right in that sad to say, there are many churches (and thus many people) who have done great harm. However, these people who do harm are obviously not following Jesus' commands.

 

Jesus specifically said the following commands, which churches (thus people who believe in Jesus) should obey:

 

Matthew 22 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=NIV

 

"34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[Deut. 6:5] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[Lev. 19:18] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

Luke 6 - Luke 6 NIV - Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath - One - Bible Gateway

(I boldened some.)

 

"27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

 

 

People and churches who do not follow Jesus' teachings obviously are just taking the name "Christian" without truly being Christian. So, when you see people who hurt others instead of loving them, then it is obvious they are not living according to Jesus' teachings.

 

the church has never (and will never) be able to exist without attempting to exercise political power by oppressing those they judge. that's why the two sides, atheist and religious, will eventually be at odds with each other wherever they are not already at odds with each other and eventually religion will lose.

I disagree, because Jesus actually did not emphasize/teach that the church would be a political system. During Jesus' time, the Romans were in power. Now, if Jesus had emphasized that his followers were going to take over politics, then I would agree with you. However, Jesus warned that his followers would be persecuted. Christians today in the West tend to forget that the Kingdom of Heaven is not of this world... it's not the USA, for example. Although it is true that thankfully, the USA has freedom of religion, Jesus did not teach that his groups of followers (termed the church) would be fighting it out in the political arena against other people, in order to control nations. He taught his apostles to love God, love others, tell people about him and to help others, period.

 

Although it does seem like many Christians of today think that there are Christian nations, Jesus did not promise Christian nations, but rather the Kingdom of Heaven, which is believed to be not of this world. It sounds a little like a science fiction movie lol, but it's true that Christians are to be ready for when Jesus comes back. One of the beliefs of Christians is that someday Jesus will come back and all who believe in Him will be "raptured" - taken off the earth. While to Atheists and other groups, I understand how that sounds crazy, it does show however that Christians are not to be a political system.

 

However, it is perfectly fine for all people, regardless of their beliefs, to vote and take part in the wonderful freedoms democracy in places on this earth provides. It is indeed true that Christians, both those in name only and those Christian heart and soul (and God is the Judge, not other people) along with Agnostics, founded the USA on democratic-republic principles, which is cool. However, one thing that personally breaks my heart is the horrible fact that many Christians in that time did not understand about loving people different than them, including the Native American and the African people. This is horrible and I do believe God will judge them for it.

 

 

 

we cannot progress as a society and a species while holding on to medieval beliefs.

I am curious if you consider such people as William Wilberforce and Martin Luther King Jr. to be holding on to medieval beliefs? Do you consider them not having an impact on making "progress as a society"?

 

Interestingly, much of the views many Atheists of today have, including the idea that slavery is wrong, comes from the hard work of many Christians and Theists in the past.

 

so medieval beliefs will eventually have to go by the wayside as they are marginalized from generation to generation.

For a long time, some Atheists have tried to eradicate Theism, calling it an ancient superstition. However, there continues to be people around the world who do believe in God or gods. While it make some Atheists "feel good" to mock and consider belief in deity to be old fashioned, it has not destroyed the faith of true believers.

 

Accounted in Matthew 24, Jesus does warn that "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold," which can mean both people who no longer believe in God who do wickedness, as well/in addition as people who say they believe in God, yet do wickedness. This sad to say is the case... war is still continuing, and has gotten worse. I encourage you to study the statistics of all the people blown to bits and subjected to horrible weaponry in the modern time. It is staggeringly shameful what human beings do to other human beings. This includes what happens in countries where belief in God is highly discouraged, including China and the former Soviet Union. It also includes countries where there are different beliefs in God.

 

Slavery still exists. Although it is illegal in most countries, trafficking and slavery still happens around the world, including in "modern" countries.

 

Many people nowadays turn to drugs and alcohol for comfort, which in turn kills other people. Life in the modern times, although more comfortable for many people, is not without its vices and horrible crimes, done by both people who don't believe in God and people who say they do, yet don't obey God.

 

So, although it is definitely possible that more and more people will no longer believe in God, it is also extremely possible (and many scientists who don't believe in God will confirm) that the earth will experience horrible catastrophes. Sad to say, the vices of hatred, lust, and greed continue today like they have since people first started writing down history.

 

In order not to end on a negative note, regardless of if a person believes in God or not, the positive thing is to focus on similar goals. The goals of loving and helping people can be found in both Theists and Atheists, and in order to make the world a better place, it is great for them to work together for the good of the earth!

[fallenheart]

(pssssssst.........Jesus IS a myth!)

[Gulf-Delta]

Hello,

 

For those who think Jesus is a myth, could you please provide references as to why you think so? Thanks

 

Also, what exactly about Jesus do you think is a myth?

 

His existence?

The miracles of healing?

The Messianic prophesies in the Tanakh that Christians associate with Jesus?

All of the above?

 

Could you please post links with solid references that support your claim?

 

Since we are for the most part all adults, the objective of any interfaith discussion or discussion concerning beliefs is best and most enjoyable when done without insults and with concrete references as to why one believes what one believes. Thanks.

 

Peace and God bless

 

Look up "Christianity Before Christ". An incredible read.

 

It explains how Jesus' story and well as many other Bible stories like Genesis, were around THOUSANDS of years before Christ was "born". It also explains the origins of the big 3 monotheistic religions, and how they're all connected.

 

You should know that there are several other demigods that pre-date Jesus that follow the same exact life. Wisemen, virgin birth, carpentry, starting a ministry at age 30, last supper, crucifixion/execution at age 33, resurrection.

 

As for Jesus historically existing, that is true. But what seems to have happened is, someone took myths and Holy Stories that already existed, and applied them to a Jewish minister and made him into a prophet/demigod.

 

Some people even speculate that the Jesus in the Bible is a composite character (make sense as the stories were written decades or centuries apart) of a few contemporary historical figure (kings, etc), as Jesus' life shares many events with the life of King Tut, for example. This also explains Jesus' self-contradictory nature in different parts of the Bible.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gulf-Delta

[Krytie TV]

I feel pretty convinced that the man coined as "Jesus" probably existed and was a severely delusional/mentally ill individual who happened to have great charisma and public speaking skills.

[Gulf-Delta]

I feel pretty convinced that the man coined as "Jesus" probably existed and was a severely delusional/mentally ill individual who happened to have great charisma and public speaking skills.

 

As I said above, "Jesus" was just a minister that the Jews/Christians/Muslims elevated and applied their own ideas too.

 

He was a canvas, of sorts. And the big 3 all painted a picture of a prophet/demigod upon him. In reality, the CHARACTER of Jesus probably didn't exist. On one page you have him commanding people to steal. A few later he's giving the Sermon on the Mount. In which he teaches us to kill, if we must. The next he's outraged at the desecration of a temple.

 

He was just a man that various events/actions/myths were applied to.

 

The Jesus in the Bible is the fictionalized version of a real man. Much like George Washington and the cherry tree

[M30USA]

The existence of Jesus, the man, is so firmly established that even the scholars who are critics of him cannot deny it. In addition to him merely existing as a man, the following are also agreed upon by all scholars--again, even his critics : 1) Jesus was crucified under the order of Ponchus Pilate in ~33 AD, 2) He was buried in a tomb, the owner of which we have record of, 3) The tomb was empty three days later.

 

Now, you can argue the REASON for point number 3. But you cannot argue that he WAS buried AND the tomb was empty three days later. Secular historians tell us that the tomb was guarded by a Roman soldier whose punishment for allowing the tomb to be trespassed was DEATH. I doubt the soldier would allow that if he had ANY control over it. Additionally, if Jesus did not rise from the dead then how do you explain that ALL of his disciples went from the sad state of hiding out like cowards in their houses and denying they ever knew him...to three days later, after seeing him physically resurrected, being willing to die for him (11 of the 12 were martyred by choice).

 

Don't listen or even argue with anyone who has not thoroughly investiaged their claims about Jesus. I can just as easily say that Napoleon Bonaparte didn't exist or fight in any wars.

 

For anyone who has serious interest in the truth, I would recommend the writings and speeches of William Lane Craig.

 

Peace.