For those who think Jesus is a myth...

[writergal]

I have always been a Christian but don't spend much time thinking about it any more. I don't know if I can rightly call myself a Christian now or not... I have such mixed feelings. I still believe in the basic teachings and message but have a real problem with organized religion and guilt mongering. And I know that many church pastors get into things they have no business discussing. To be blunt, I am terribly unimpressed with the people who tend to run religious organizations. I have also been through a gambit of religions and see how silly many religious arguments are.

 

I tend to see religion as man's feeble attempt to understand something greater than himself. Call it cosmic consciousness, or the universal mind, or God, or whatever you like. I tend like the idea that everything is part of a consciousness... that we and everything that exists are the mind of God. And this is suprisingly consistent with Christian teachings if you think it through. Whatever it might be, I believe we are all touched by it... I have felt it... and I had one life-changing religious experience in this sense. But I reject any definitive explanation of what it might be.

 

Could Jesus have been someone connected to this conciousness in a way that accounts for Biblical teachings? Maybe. It is all a matter of shifting one's perspective and being willing to shed the images from art that have molded our idea of God.

 

So now I trust my heart and ignore what others say. I still believe in right and wrong but I let my heart determine which is which.

 

Since you asked... So whaddaya think?

 

Very intelligent response Robert Z. I think the best part is where you write about how you trust your heart and ignore what others say. I think that's what is most important - as Shakespeare (and many others have said) "to thine own self be true."

[BetheButterfly]

Nice post, Beth. It makes a lot of sense....

 

I may not agree with or believe all you say, but I defend to the hilt your right to say it....

 

Thanks TaraMaiden,

 

As I you and I respect you. I have learned a lot from your posts, though yeah of course we don't agree on everything. However, we both are human beings and I think, though I don't know you, that you're a good person!

[TheFinalWord]

 

So now I trust my heart and ignore what others say. I still believe in right and wrong but I let my heart determine which is which.

 

Since you asked... So whaddaya think?

 

Hi Robert,

 

I understand your frustration with organized religion.

 

The problem is, it's made up of people. As long as people are involved, it will be like any other institution: flawed. That's why I look to Christ as my example, He is the only one that is perfect.

 

You say you trust your heart. The bible has a lot to say about that actually

 

"Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"

 

The heart will deceive us. We can easily justify anything we do, given enough time Heck, I've done it many times! Just look at all the relationship problems on this forum. Heck, look at how our bad decisions have gotten us into troubles again and again. What's the solution? God's wisdom. God knows we make foolish choices. To give us a standard, He has given us His Word. We can then check our hearts against His wisdom. If it doesn't line up, we then have to trust God's wisdom above our own; that's what faith is. When we start trusting ourselves over God, we risk idolatry, i.e. exalting our self over God. Many people do that today in Christianity. They create a God to suit their own desires. "Well I like to get drunk, Jesus drank wine, so I'm going to go with my heart". I'm not saying you do that, just an illustration If we compare that against the bible, we easily can see, the bible forbids drunkenness. Insert anything you want here, fornication, hate, etc.

 

So I would say if you are checking your heart against biblical standards, then you have solid ground. If not, you can be easily swayed by various doctrines. I for one have never agreed 100% with any pastor, heck I've never agreed 100% with anyone, even God! I for one do not always understand why God doesn't roast certain dictators or people that live to blaspheme Him, like He did King Herod. But I have come to learn, that it's not my call. God is way more merciful than me, and thank God for that!

 

But I have had enough experience to know, my perspective is limited. I trust God, and especially His Wisdom. It is a gift. We don't have to obey it, but when we do the fruit will be manifest. Will you still be saved if you trust in Jesus and reject God's wisdom? Yes. But will you be effective for the Kingdom? No, unfortunately.

[M30USA]

TheFinalWord,

 

Have you read any of Charles Spurgeon's writings?

 

"You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it."

-Spurgeon

[TheFinalWord]

Also mean to add...God's wisdom isn't like our wisdom. It can be hard to grasp sometimes. That's where trust comes in. For example, God used the poor and powerless to proclaim His message. Why? So no man could take credit. Completely the opposite of man's wisom, who worships and admire people with power and money.

[BetheButterfly]

I have always been a Christian but don't spend much time thinking about it any more. I don't know if I can rightly call myself a Christian now or not... I have such mixed feelings. I still believe in the basic teachings and message but have a real problem with organized religion and guilt mongering.

 

Hello RobertZ,

 

There are many Christians who have issues with organized religion, as well as guilt mongering. My hubby has issues with organized religion and many traditions Christians practice today, including celebrating Christmas. I personally have no problem celebrating Christmas, but maybe you are not referring to that.

 

And I know that many church pastors get into things they have no business discussing. To be blunt, I am terribly unimpressed with the people who tend to run religious organizations. I have also been through a gambit of religions and see how silly many religious arguments are.

 

I know some pastors who I don't agree with, but I also know some who I very much admire and respect, who practice what they preach (as far as I know) and who I learn from in my relationship with God.

 

 

 

I tend to see religion as man's feeble attempt to understand something greater than himself. Call it cosmic consciousness, or the universal mind, or God, or whatever you like. I tend like the idea that everything is part of a consciousness... that we and everything that exists are the mind of God. And this is suprisingly consistent with Christian teachings if you think it through. Whatever it might be, I believe we are all touched by it... I have felt it... and I had one life-changing religious experience in this sense. But I reject any definitive explanation of what it might be.

 

 

Could Jesus have been someone connected to this conciousness in a way that accounts for Biblical teachings? Maybe. It is all a matter of shifting one's perspective and being willing to shed the images from art that have molded our idea of God.

 

That is cool that you have felt this. I have felt it to, through Jesus. Being a Christian however is not just a belief in a "cosmic consciousness, or the universal mind, or God, or whatever you like". Rather, it includes believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God who God promised King David would be on his throne forever. Please see 2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, and Psalm 89. Christians = people who follow Christ = Messiah = Anointed One. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah. However, many Jewish people who believe in G-d and the Tanakh do not believe he is the Messiah. That is their right and their beliefs should be respected as well. They have valid reasons for their beliefs too.

 

 

So now I trust my heart and ignore what others say. I still believe in right and wrong but I let my heart determine which is which.

 

I am curious what you think of the following section of a prayer of David:

 

Psalm 141

Psalm 141 NIVUK - A psalm of David. I call to you, LORD, - Bible Gateway

 

"I call to you, Lord, come quickly to me;

hear me when I call to you.

2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;

may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. 3 Set a guard over my mouth, Lord;

keep watch over the door of my lips.

4 Do not let my heart be drawn to what is evil

so that I take part in wicked deeds

along with those who are evildoers;

do not let me eat their delicacies.

 

 

 

 

 

Since you asked... So whaddaya think?

 

Thanks for answering.

 

I am curious as to if you pray and ask God to to not let your heart "be drawn to what is evil", like David's prayer? It is great that you believe in right or wrong. However, do you believe your heart knows the answer, or God?

 

It is late and even though I couldn't sleep, I am feeling much more sleepy now.

 

Peace and God bless you, and I hope you understand that I know nobody is perfect and am not judging you. I'm not perfect at all, and I personally learn a lot from the Bible. King David, for example, was not perfect either. I am thankful for God's love and forgiveness, and believe that He saves me through Jesus, and I want to live in obedience to Jesus' teachings!!! I appreciate the records of King David's passionate prayers/songs to God, though I don't agree with everything he asked for. He was violent in some of them actually, but I am not his judge. I believe God is the Judge, not people.

[TheFinalWord]

Hello RobertZ,

 

There are many Christians who have issues with organized religion, as well as guilt mongering. My hubby has issues with organized religion and many traditions Christians practice today, including celebrating Christmas. I personally have no problem celebrating Christmas, but maybe you are not referring to that.

 

Hi BetheButterfly,

 

That is so true. Although I believe in organized religion, I have left two churches in my lifetime. However, I never abandoned my faith: I have made it a practice to never put any preacher or man on a pedestal above God.

 

In one church, my mom and dad were volunteering and cleaning the church offices. As she was cleaning, my mom overheard the pastor talking to one of the asst. pastors and saying to reject membership of this one couple because they couldn't donate enough. My mom and dad exposed the preacher to the elders. It was not pretty. Before joining any church, I really advise any Christian to pray about it. The bible predicts there will be a lot of snakes that falsely use the name of Christ to make a deceitful living. Wolf in sheeps clothing as it were. God will show you, if you are open and pray about it. The main thing is to never idolize any preacher or church. One thing to look at is the church organizational structure. Make sure the pastor is accountable to either a larger denominational body or to a group of elders. Rouge pastors should not be trusted.

 

On the other hand, the church I was involved in before I moved was so amazing. It was like an extended family. We built a community center and helped give kids tutoring, and help to single moms and the homeless. So there are good and bad. Church is so helpful, if you find a good one All the best to anyone searching. Seek God and pray, He will separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

True and False Disciples “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Edited July 4, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[TheFinalWord]

TheFinalWord,

 

Have you read any of Charles Spurgeon's writings?

 

"You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it."

-Spurgeon

 

Some of them! I read a bunch of his commentaries years ago. haha that is funny! Too true!

[Robert Z]

I know some pastors who I don't agree with, but I also know some who I very much admire and respect, who practice what they preach (as far as I know) and who I learn from in my relationship with God.

 

I am not talking about opinions. I mean, for example, when they get into matters of science that they don't understand. There is no better way to create an atheist than to argue matters of science, with faith.

 

That is cool that you have felt this. I have felt it to, through Jesus. Being a Christian however is not just a belief in a "cosmic consciousness, or the universal mind, or God, or whatever you like". Rather, it includes believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God who God promised King David would be on his throne forever. Please see 2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, and Psalm 89. Christians = people who follow Christ = Messiah = Anointed One. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah. However, many Jewish people who believe in G-d and the Tanakh do not believe he is the Messiah. That is their right and their beliefs should be respected as well. They have valid reasons for their beliefs too.

 

Oh yes, I can cite verse and chapter.

 

I am curious what you think of the following section of a prayer of David:

 

Psalm 141

Psalm 141 NIVUK - A psalm of David. I call to you, LORD, - Bible Gateway

 

"I call to you, Lord, come quickly to me;

hear me when I call to you.

2 May my prayer be set before you like incense;

may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. 3 Set a guard over my mouth, Lord;

keep watch over the door of my lips.

4 Do not let my heart be drawn to what is evil

so that I take part in wicked deeds

along with those who are evildoers;

do not let me eat their delicacies.

 

I think it sounds like many other prayers. You need to understand that I was raised with this stuff. I have been very religious.

 

Thanks for answering.

 

Thanks for asking.

 

I am curious as to if you pray and ask God to to not let your heart "be drawn to what is evil", like David's prayer? It is great that you believe in right or wrong. However, do you believe your heart knows the answer, or God?

 

No. I understand and appreciate you're perspective here, but I don't look to ancient texts for life's answers any more. We are supposed to know God how, through the little voice in our head, through our hearts, through the Holy Spirit? Do you realize how many holy men disagree based on what God told them? It is like chasing rainbows to look to religion or old books for the truth. I see religion more as a philosophy than a place for real answers.

 

I don't worry about shaving sending me to hell, or eating animals with a cloven hoof, either.

[Robert Z]

Hi Robert,

 

I understand your frustration with organized religion.

 

The problem is, it's made up of people. As long as people are involved, it will be like any other institution: flawed. That's why I look to Christ as my example, He is the only one that is perfect.

 

You say you trust your heart. The bible has a lot to say about that actually

 

So you say look to God but quote something that was passed along by word of mouth for a century or two, and then voted in as a credible passage based on politics and the opinions of men.

 

How is that looking to God for answers? You are looking to men for answers, not God. Men who wrote the Bible say they were inspired by God. Okay, so men say.

 

May I look to the Book of Enoch for answers? If not, why not, because a bunch of men decided it isn't the word of God? Okay, for something a bit more mainstream, how about the Book of Ruth? And since they don't agree, which religion should I listen to when they tell me which books I should believe? Or is this a matter of me KNOWING the truth through prayer even though countless theologeans who pray every day can't agree on much of anything.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

It gets even better because we don't even know who wrote some of this stuff. So some script from some person written centuries ago and voted in as favorable by men, are the word of God? Yeah, right! Why are my insights to truth any less valid than theirs?

 

Why should I believe some ancient strangers who remain nameless? Oh yes, the holy spirit, right? What if my holy spirit says ENOUGH - don't be a fool! In the end you aren't basing your beliefs on the word of God. You are basing them on the little voice in your head and what other people tell you.

[M30USA]

It gets even better because we don't even know who wrote some of this stuff. So some script from some person written centuries ago and voted in as favorable by men, are the word of God? Yeah, right! Why are my insights to truth any less valid than theirs?

 

Why should I believe some ancient strangers who remain nameless? Oh yes, the holy spirit, right? What if my holy spirit says ENOUGH - don't be a fool! In the end you aren't basing your beliefs on the word of God. You are basing them on the little voice in your head and what other people tell you.

 

So then pray. Pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal truth to you. If you pray earnestly and seek earnestly, then it is the Holy Spirit's responsibility (not yours) to reveal the truth. When you begin to receive truth (and it may be a slow process), examine what is revealed to you on a daily basis with a critical mind to see where it comes from. If it comes from the Holy Spirit it will glorify God and produce good fruit in your life. If it comes from an evil spirit, it will glorify yourself and produce bad fruit in your life. But pray. Because the truth is known by God, not man.

[Robert Z]

So then pray. Pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal truth to you. If you pray earnestly and seek earnestly, then it is the Holy Spirit's responsibility (not yours) to reveal the truth. When you begin to receive truth (and it may be a slow process), examine what is revealed to you on a daily basis with a critical mind to see where it comes from. If it comes from the Holy Spirit it will glorify God and produce good fruit in your life. If it comes from an evil spirit, it will glorify yourself and produce bad fruit in your life. But pray. Because the truth is known by God, not man.

 

And you think you are the first to make this claim? I have been though this all before several times in my life. Finally I grew up.

 

Religion offers a great basis for morality and for being a good person in general. For that I applaud religion. And I applaud those who dedicate their lives to doing good deeds. I also appreciate what you are trying to do. So I will be honest. If I hadn't finally abandoned the constraints religion places on a person, there is very little doubt in my mind that I would have committed suicide. In order to find some real joy in life I had to let it all go. It was like an anchor dragging down the the ocean floor. It didn't free me. It nearly killed me. And it caused me to throw away half of my life on a bad marriage. If you think you have some grand insight that I lacked, you are only kidding yourself. You are no different than me and I've been where you are before.

 

I have probably prayed more than you have. You are preaching to the choir but the choir is about ten steps ahead of you. Sorry, I admire the life you chose to live [for now], but don't even try to preach to me. I have heard it all too many times before.

[M30USA]

And you think you are the first to make this claim? I have been though this all before several times in my life. Finally I grew up.

 

Religion offers a great basis for morality and for being a good person in general. For that I applaud religion. And I applaud those who dedicate their lives to doing good deeds. I also appreciate what you are trying to do. So I will be honest. If I hadn't finally abandoned the constraints religion places on a person, there is very little doubt in my mind that I would have committed suicide. In order to find some real joy in life I had to let it all go. It was like an anchor dragging down the the ocean floor. It didn't free me. It nearly killed me. And it caused me to throw away half of my life on a bad marriage. If you think you have some grand insight that I lacked, you are only kidding yourself. You are no different than me and I've been where you are before.

 

I have probably prayed more than you have. You are preaching to the choir but the choir is about ten steps ahead of you. Sorry, I admire the life you chose to live [for now], but don't even try to preach to me. I have heard it all too many times before.

 

In what way has former belief in God dragged you down to the ocean floor and killed your joy?

[TheFinalWord]

So you say look to God but quote something that was passed along by word of mouth for a century or two, and then voted in as a credible passage based on politics and the opinions of men.

 

How is that looking to God for answers? You are looking to men for answers, not God. Men who wrote the Bible say they were inspired by God. Okay, so men say.

 

May I look to the Book of Enoch for answers? If not, why not, because a bunch of men decided it isn't the word of God? Okay, for something a bit more mainstream, how about the Book of Ruth? And since they don't agree, which religion should I listen to when they tell me which books I should believe? Or is this a matter of me KNOWING the truth through prayer even though countless theologeans who pray every day can't agree on much of anything.

 

We both know that the New Testament wasn't passed down orally for centuries before being transcribed. Neither was the Torah. As far as the book of Enoch, I do believe it is possible that it is inspired. I don't know that much about that book. I do know it pretty much demolishes young earth creationism

 

In terms of it being the word of man and not the Word of God, there is a simple way to test it. Ask Jesus to come into your heart. That's what I did! I was also an atheist, heavily into drug use.

 

When I hit rock bottom, I cried out to God in desperation. He saved me and set me free from drugs instantly.

 

The great thing about God, He doesn't just say trust Him. We can test it. I have tested the Word of God by applying the principles in my life. Each and every time, God's wisdom prevails. Even when man is against me and the odds are stacked against me. That is how I know it is the Word of God, and not just the words of man. I put it to the direct test.

 

For example, man's heart says to hate your enemy. God says to love them and pray for them. Completely counter-intuitive. I applied the principle, and I was delivered from the hands of my enemy, supernaturally. Why? Because I had no power on my own to change the situation. God was the only explanation, and my enemy even admitted it. I have seen countless examples of directly applying God's wisdom to a circumstance and watched God prevail.

 

So, we can both go back and forth here arguing the historicity of the bible. Are you a scholar in this area? Have you conducted original research yourself? If so, please link us to your publications so us laymen can rip them to shreds lol Because if not, you are just applying your pre-supposition to a belief you have to forward a particular line of evidence (quotes and facts from scholars that support your claim). Unless you have done the scholarship yourself, don't just link me to sites about dates and authors. Because you know I can do the same thing. I have about 10 books on shelf on the historicity of the bible. I'm sure you've heard of Josh McDowell.

 

Or, you can apply it for yourself and see the evidence first hand.

Edited July 4, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[TaraMaiden]

My religion says exactly the same, it's just that it's not 'God' saying it...

 

Works for me... just as well as yours does for you.

no middle-man, though.....

[TheFinalWord]

My religion says exactly the same, it's just that it's not 'God' saying it...

 

Works for me... just as well as yours does for you.

no middle-man, though.....

 

Does your religion say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? That our works are like filthy rags and we only recieve salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

 

My guess is your religion does not claim that, or you would be a Christian.

 

If not, then it is false. That's another sliver of wisdom that God's Word gives.

 

4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

Okay that's the claim, how can we test it?

 

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

If we are in the truth and applying God's wisdom, we will supernatural manifestation of God's victory in our lives. The spirit in us is greater than the spirit of the world (i.e. man's system of power, greed, and corruption).

[TaraMaiden]

Well, having been a practising Christian for 40 years, I have my on opinion on that. You naturally are entitled to yours, but you'll understand me if I say I heartily disagree with it.

 

[TheFinalWord]

Well, having been a practising Christian for 40 years, I have my on opinion on that. You naturally are entitled to yours, but you'll understand me if I say I heartily disagree with it.

 

 

No problem Tara Definitely, you are entitled to yours!

 

I like you actually; I think you're funny and witty. It's good to have a devil's advocate Keeps me on my toes.

 

Have a good day! Gotta jet out.

[Janesays]

In order to find some real joy in life I had to let it all go. It was like an anchor dragging down the the ocean floor. It didn't free me. It nearly killed me.

 

Me too. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[fortyninethousand322]

And you think you are the first to make this claim? I have been though this all before several times in my life. Finally I grew up.

 

Religion offers a great basis for morality and for being a good person in general. For that I applaud religion. And I applaud those who dedicate their lives to doing good deeds. I also appreciate what you are trying to do. So I will be honest. If I hadn't finally abandoned the constraints religion places on a person, there is very little doubt in my mind that I would have committed suicide. In order to find some real joy in life I had to let it all go. It was like an anchor dragging down the the ocean floor. It didn't free me. It nearly killed me. And it caused me to throw away half of my life on a bad marriage. If you think you have some grand insight that I lacked, you are only kidding yourself. You are no different than me and I've been where you are before.

 

I have probably prayed more than you have. You are preaching to the choir but the choir is about ten steps ahead of you. Sorry, I admire the life you chose to live [for now], but don't even try to preach to me. I have heard it all too many times before.

 

I've never understood this part. In what way do you think religion inherently limits a person? I can understand how some religions or religious philosophies can be limiting, but not religion in and of itself.

[josie54]

I know this thread has evolved a bit past the original question, but I still thought I'd add my thoughts. I believe Jesus lived (just like Mohammad and other sources of religious faith), because history bears that out. However,as I have no other evidence that miracles happened or that God exists, I have to take that part of it with skepticism. The Bible is no more a historical record than are Shakespeare's plays or the Greek tragedies. It references history, but because it was written by men, there is no way to separate factfrom fiction.

 

In my view, life is too complex to have sprung at the whim of a single entity. No truly omnipotent God would have any use for us, nor would such an omnipotent being need or want our blind devotion. And if such an entity took it on himself to punish those who didn't believe in him, even though they are otherwise good people with good hearts, with eternal damnation and the horrors of hell--well, that sounds cruel and tyrannical, not holy or uplifting. Certainly not something I want to believe in.

 

As a child, I tried to believe in the God my church described to me, and it only scared the heck out of me when I was very young, and made me very, very sad as I got older. I simply couldn't believe that God would do any such thing. I stopped going to church because I simply couldn't believe that such a vengeful system was "good." I wholly support and respect those who do believe, but I simply have not been able to do so myself.

 

That's not to say I'm not a spiritual person--I sense that we're all connected in some way. Just not in the simplified "heaven-and-hell" way that my church described to me.

 

But the Bible and the belief in Jesus and God also give many comfort, and while a small fraction of people use them as a justification for hatred, they serve far more people as models for civil behavior. They're also a source of great poetry and inspiration. For these reasons, I recognize their power.

 

I don't believe Jesus is a myth, but I believe the descriptions of his actions are "mythical," for the reasons above.

Edited July 9, 2012 by josie54

[M30USA]

I know this thread has evolved a bit past the original question, but I still thought I'd add my thoughts. I believe Jesus lived (just like Mohammad and other sources of religious faith), because history bears that out. However,as I have no other evidence that miracles happened or that God exists, I have to take that part of it with skepticism. The Bible is no more a historical record than are Shakespeare's plays or the Greek tragedies. It references history, but because it was written by men, there is no way to separate factfrom fiction.

 

In my view, life is too complex to have sprung at the whim of a single entity. No truly omnipotent God would have any use for us, nor would such an omnipotent being need or want our blind devotion. And if such an entity took it on himself to punish those who didn't believe in him, even though they are otherwise good people with good hearts, with eternal damnation and the horrors of hell--well, that sounds cruel and tyrannical, not holy or uplifting. Certainly not something I want to believe in.

 

As a child, I tried to believe in the God my church described to me, and it only scared the heck out of me when I was very young, and made me very, very sad as I got older. I simply couldn't believe that God would do any such thing. I stopped going to church because I simply couldn't believe that such a vengeful system was "good." I wholly support and respect those who do believe, but I simply have not been able to do so myself.

 

That's not to say I'm not a spiritual person--I sense that we're all connected in some way. Just not in the simplified "heaven-and-hell" way that my church described to me.

 

But the Bible and the belief in Jesus and God also give many comfort, and while a small fraction of people use them as a justification for hatred, they serve far more people as models for civil behavior. They're also a source of great poetry and inspiration. For these reasons, I recognize their power.

 

I don't believe Jesus is a myth, but I believe the descriptions of his actions are "mythical," for the reasons above.

 

That's a reasonable position for a non-Christian. I will say that, from a Christian standpoint, the proof (or lack of proof) of the events in Jesus' life really isn't the central issue. Hypothetically, if the Bible is true in it's account, then Jesus' life 2000 years ago was primarily a means to satisfy God's plan in his sight--not our sight. There is, in all honesty, a very undercover aspect to who Jesus was during his first coming. There were times when he even told the recipients of his healing to NOT tell anyone what happened when they went back into town. Isn't that strange? Why wouldn't Jesus make a huge public display of everything he did? Even at the peak of his ministry during the last 3 years of his life, he still maintained a rather elusive identity for such an allegedly divine person. This suggests, at the very least, that he did not need to prove anything to man. There is even a verse in one of the Gospels which said that Jesus did not need the testimony of man, for he knew what was in man. The proof that people are awaiting, unfortunately, will not come until his return, at which point he will be seen by all, "just as lightning flashes in the east and is seen in the west". My point in saying all this is that when he came 2000 years ago, even if a single human being didn't see him, it still wouldn't change the result of what he did by satisfying God's justice for man's redemption.

Edited July 9, 2012 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

But the Bible and the belief in Jesus and God also give many comfort, and while a small fraction of people use them as a justification for hatred, they serve far more people as models for civil behavior. They're also a source of great poetry and inspiration. For these reasons, I recognize their power.

 

That was nice of you to say I wish more agnostic/atheists were this tolerant.

[BetheButterfly]

I know this thread has evolved a bit past the original question, but I still thought I'd add my thoughts. I believe Jesus lived (just like Mohammad and other sources of religious faith), because history bears that out. However,as I have no other evidence that miracles happened or that God exists, I have to take that part of it with skepticism. The Bible is no more a historical record than are Shakespeare's plays or the Greek tragedies. It references history, but because it was written by men, there is no way to separate factfrom fiction.

 

In my view, life is too complex to have sprung at the whim of a single entity. No truly omnipotent God would have any use for us, nor would such an omnipotent being need or want our blind devotion. And if such an entity took it on himself to punish those who didn't believe in him, even though they are otherwise good people with good hearts, with eternal damnation and the horrors of hell--well, that sounds cruel and tyrannical, not holy or uplifting. Certainly not something I want to believe in.

 

As a child, I tried to believe in the God my church described to me, and it only scared the heck out of me when I was very young, and made me very, very sad as I got older. I simply couldn't believe that God would do any such thing. I stopped going to church because I simply couldn't believe that such a vengeful system was "good." I wholly support and respect those who do believe, but I simply have not been able to do so myself.

 

That's not to say I'm not a spiritual person--I sense that we're all connected in some way. Just not in the simplified "heaven-and-hell" way that my church described to me.

 

But the Bible and the belief in Jesus and God also give many comfort, and while a small fraction of people use them as a justification for hatred, they serve far more people as models for civil behavior. They're also a source of great poetry and inspiration. For these reasons, I recognize their power.

 

I don't believe Jesus is a myth, but I believe the descriptions of his actions are "mythical," for the reasons above.

 

Hello Josie,

 

I liked your post because even though I don't agree with everything you believe (for example, I do believe Jesus' actions are true, not mythical), I do respect and understand what you believe concerning Jesus. Thanks so much for sharing!

 

I understand as well about how what your church taught you made you scared as a child and sad as you grew. One of my questions is concerning the idea of hell. It seems that hell has a different meaning in Jewish beliefs than it does in Greco-Roman Gentile beliefs. For example, in the Jewish Tanakh, hell being an eternal torture chamber is not taught, as far as I know. So, sometimes I wonder what is the deal here about that issue.

 

However, regardless of which view of hell is correct, I personally believe that God is good and just, even when I cannot see it. I liken our difference from God to be similar to the differences between a grasshopper to a human being. God sees the whole picture, whereas we are limited.

 

However, I understand if you do not believe in God or are agnostic. It would most definitely help if God showed himself to everybody. However, if He did so, there would be no need for faith. It seems that faith is a part of what God wants from people at the moment. I am glad there is freedom of religion in many countries. It is the right of every person to decide whether to believe in God or not.