For those who think Jesus is a myth...

[KathyM]

 

 

 

First of all, this is blatantly untrue. NO historical (unless you count the Bible which is a religious text, not a purely historical text, and cannot be taken as any kind of fact) sources document "Christ." Some document a man named Jesus. Many suggest the Christian idea of Jesus was a composite of several men. And MANY other people in history were MUCH more well-documented by an array of sources. Even many people from the time Jesus lived in.

The name documented is not Christ, but Jesus. But we are referring to the same person. Jesus of Nasareth. And as I said, His existence is documented in a variety of places--both non-Christian and Christian. His existence is accepted to be true by many people, many scholars, both non-Christian and Christian. He is well documented. Whether he is the most documented person in ancient history or not is not the point I'm trying to make, since no one can realistically determine who that person who is most documented would be. But Jesus is well documented, both in historical, non-Christian sources, and in Christian sources. No one can claim otherwise, and still be truthful.

[zengirl]

The name documented is not Christ, but Jesus. But we are referring to the same person. Jesus of Nasareth. And as I said, His existence is documented in a variety of places--both non-Christian and Christian. His existence is accepted to be true by many people, many scholars, both non-Christian and Christian. He is well documented. Whether he is the most documented person in ancient history or not is not the point I'm trying to make, since no one can realistically determine who that person who is most documented would be. But Jesus is well documented, both in historical, non-Christian sources, and in Christian sources. No one can claim otherwise, and still be truthful.

 

So are many other people associated with myths. Again, myths are quite OFTEN amalgamation of historical people and supernatural tales. Odysseus was a real guy, too, according to plenty of reputable historians. That doesn't mean we take The Odyssey as a factual account.

 

Most people on the thread have said that Jesus was either a real person or a composite of several real figures, but that many of the stories in the Bible are stories (myths) associated with that figure that are not historically true or reasonably factual. That's. . . what a myth is.

 

When you say "Christ" is Jesus (in a historical sense), you are totally missing the point and completely wrong from a historical perspective. That's why I highlighted that error.

[TaraMaiden]

The name documented is not Christ, but Jesus. But we are referring to the same person. Jesus of Nasareth.

 

And here too, the point is moot....

 

Nazareth was created in the 3-4th century the bible was literalized during the same period, calling Jesus 'from Nazareth' was a mistake by scribes unfamiliar with the history of the region.

 

Nazareth is not mentioned even once in the entire Old Testament. The Book of Joshua (19.10,16) – in what it claims is the process of settlement by the tribe of Zebulon in the area – records twelve towns and six villages and yet omits any 'Nazareth' from its list.

 

• The Talmud, although it names 63 Galilean towns, knows nothing of Nazareth, nor does early rabbinic literature.

 

• St Paul knows nothing of 'Nazareth'. Rabbi Solly's epistles (real and fake) mention Jesus 221 times, Nazareth not at all.

 

• No ancient historian or geographer mentions Nazareth. It is first noted at the beginning of the 4th century.

 

 

see here for further information.

 

This is a perfect illustration of how myths are born, and heroes embellished upon.

[Feelin Frisky]

My post again with retarded errors corrected.

 

Christ's existence is well documented in history--probably moreso than anyone in history. Documented from many sources--not just Christian sources. People of many different faiths and even people of no faith believe Christ existed, but what people are not in agreement with is whether or not he was the messiah--the Son of God. Christians believe in the accounts of hundreds of people who testified as to Christ's appearance after resurrection, but many also believe they have proof in their own life and the lives of others that He exists. Many have witnessed miracles in their own lives and the lives of others as a result of prayer. Miracles that could only be explained by divine intervention. I know that is the case with me.

 

"Miracles" pollute the story and subvert the message bound up in Jesus humanity IMO. If one believes the miracle myths, then one objectifies Jesus as a god. If one discounts them but observes the human messages of Jesus life and death, it becomes clear that the message is one of emulation--of courage to stand in the face of adversity for what is right. The message seems to be about fellowship--definitely NOT worship and subjugation. Just my view of the value of Jesus message.

[Eve]

I was thinking about this thread today whilst happily driving in the sunshine and playing my 'Light House Family' CD. Good times.

 

I could not say that I have ever really been surprised either way .. you know, whether a person tells me they are a believer or not. I can usually tell before they even open their mouths. It's on them and can't be faked or bought. There's something there (deeply) which says it all; whether they are confused, sure, or adamant about their beliefs. I think this speaks volumes and so I choose people by their ability to believe in life and their willingness to be one of the ones who enable a new feeling or a new sense or find new evidence! I can also listen to those who are unsure or unwilling to a large extent; everyone has a story. The uniting essence is that when something comes from a place of really wanting truth it is very real and evident - not just info. This is my love story with things of the spirit. I will follow it all the days of my life.

 

Methinks this is the real challenge; what do you do once you know who a person is?

 

Bottom line? I stay away from those who just want to be right. Often they know **** about people or life, never mind spirituality, lol. They are in my mind the myth as they don't add up to owt!

 

I am so grateful that I can love freely and have prayer to bridge the times when I fall short of all the above and want to punch someone in the face.. or generally don't know where to turn*.

 

 

I also accept that some people are just readers. Nowt else going on. What the majority (in their direct circle) say, they do.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

* Due to being quite anal these times are not often.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Eve

[TaraMaiden]

.. you know, whether a person tells me they are a believer or not. I can usually tell before they even open their mouths. It's on them and can't be faked or bought. There's something there (deeply) which says it all; (...)

Bottom line? I stay away from those who just want to be right. Often they know **** about people or life, never mind spirituality, lol. They are in my mind the myth as they don't add up to owt!

 

I am so grateful that I can love freely and have prayer to bridge the times when I fall short of all the above and want to punch someone in the face.. or generally don't know where to turn*.

 

I also accept that some people are just readers. Nowt else going on. What the majority (in their direct circle) say, they do.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

* Due to being quite anal these times are not often.

 

If ever a post came over as completely patronising, this was it.

[zengirl]

If ever a post came over as completely patronising, this was it.

 

Seriously, the part about people just wanting to be right? People in glass houses. . . was my first thought.

[xxoo]

I'm confused by that post, Eve. Are you under the impression that prayer, critical thought, love, and spirituality are limited to Christianity?

[Nohbody]

Jesus is a modern rendering of a Latin Transliteration of a Greek transcription of a Semitic name. There was no historical Jesus, no one would have answered if they were called by that name. There was probably a carpenter named Yeshua who thought people should treat each other less terribly than they do and judge others less, he may or may not have claimed to be the son of god - we don't really know because the best sources we had were written by people who claimed to follow him decades after the depicted events actually occurred.

 

There is no Gospel of Yeshua, or "Jesus", so we don't know what he himself thought about any of it - we only know how a few other people interpreted a very brief period in his life.

 

Divine guidance or not, there is still room for human error - as evidenced by the fact that the Gospels don't agree on what Yeshua's LAST WORDS were. You would think that would be important enough to remember and record accurately - but accounts differ.

 

So believe whatever stupid thing you want. You are probably as far off as everyone else, myself not least.

[TaraMaiden]

Seriously, the part about people just wanting to be right? People in glass houses. . . was my first thought.

 

I think you mean -

 

"Let he who has no sin cast the first stone..."

[Nohbody]

or generally don't know where to turn*

 

* Due to being quite anal these times are not often.

 

Always turn the other cheek.

[Eve]

I'm confused by that post, Eve. Are you under the impression that prayer, critical thought, love, and spirituality are limited to Christianity?

 

I would say that it is silly to think that without any of the above one can find God. What I am objecting to is that I don't believe that one must have a well defined faith in order to have faith. Even those with a well defined faith will find it difficult to share or define their faith... and this is ok.

 

I just don't buy the false ideal being set up here that a persons unbelief comes from a place of actually caring what others believe. No evidence of that. It's is just info to them that they have rejected.

 

I would put money on this also being representative of how they treat people generally.

 

Many recognise this in themselves and for this reason come to faith.

 

So, I see this as a human question more than a history lesson. I mean, who knows what will be found or discovered next in terms of archaeology etc? No, this is clearly a question that bets have been hedged rather than experiences shared.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[zengirl]

I would say that it is silly to think that without any of the above one can find God.

 

Well, this makes no sense to me. Of course people can worship without critical thought. I'm not suggesting no one who has critical thought can be religious, but of course someone with little developed critical thinking skills can follow a religion. Historically, religion has flourished in periods of diminished critical thought, such as the Middle Ages. Many with all 4 of the things you cite will find that they don't believe in God or that they believe in a different spirituality or God or gods than you do.

 

I just don't buy the false ideal being set up here that a persons unbelief comes from a place of actually caring what others believe. No evidence of that. It's is just info to them that they have rejected.

 

Well, if you mean "unbelief" in Jesus. . . I agree that I haven't found many non-Christians who seem to mind what I believe. I've found some that care in an, "That's interesting" way, but none who were bothered by it. Nor have I found many people who sincerely mind if others believe in Jesus; what they tend to mind is when Jesus and Christianity are proselytized or claimed as truth or used as tools in discrimination and bigotry. I've no care about what anyone personally chooses to believe or not believe -- if someone worshiped the Greek gods or the FSM or whatnot, I wouldn't care either. Everyone has a right to their own worship. What they don't have is a right to claim it is factual when it is not or to force it upon others.

 

Many recognise this in themselves and for this reason come to faith.

 

What is "this" in this sentence?

 

So, I see this as a human question more than a history lesson. I mean, who knows what will be found or discovered next in terms of archaeology etc? No, this is clearly a question that bets have been hedged rather than experiences shared.

 

The thing with facts is you go with the ones that already exist. You don't "bet" on facts that may come to exist, generally. That is why this "disprove" thing is silly.

[xxoo]

I just don't buy the false ideal being set up here that a persons unbelief comes from a place of actually caring what others believe. No evidence of that. It's is just info to them that they have rejected.

 

I would put money on this also being representative of how they treat people generally.

 

Many recognise this in themselves and for this reason come to faith.

 

Have you not rejected the beliefs of others?

 

Does that reflect on how you treat people?

 

Faith is not exclusive to Christianity.

[Nohbody]

Dear Eve,

Your posts come off as passive aggressive.

 

I forgive you.

[KathyM]

"Miracles" pollute the story and subvert the message bound up in Jesus humanity. If one believes the miracle myths then one objectifies Jesus as a god. If one discounts them but observes the human messages of Jesus live and death, it becomes clear that the message in one of emulation--of courage to stand in the face of adversity for what is right. The message seems to be about fellowship--and definitely NOT worship and subjugation. Just my view of the value of Jesus message.

Miracles are a part of the story--you can't separate that out of Jesus' historical life on earth. Jesus was both God and man. Born of a human, but conceived through divine intervention, and acknowledged by God as being His Son. Jesus emulated the principles and values that God the Father teaches us--caring for others, being kind to others, showing compassion for others, forgiving others, and serving others. Those are values that God teaches us that we are to have, and they were taught and emulated by His Son as well. We are to worship Him, God the Father as our creator, and Christ as our redeemer, whose purpose was to reconnect us to a relationship with God that our sin had separated us from. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, and are to be worshipped as such.

[betterdeal]

JESUS IS NO MYTH!!!

 

He is a mythter, as any fule know.

 

Mythter Jesus to you, actually.

[TaraMaiden]

Miracles are a part of the story--you can't separate that out of Jesus' historical life on earth. Jesus was both God and man. Born of a human, but conceived through divine intervention, and acknowledged by God as being His Son. ...... We are to worship Him, God the Father as our creator, and Christ as our redeemer, whose purpose was to reconnect us to a relationship with God that our sin had separated us from. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, and are to be worshipped as such.

 

....In your opinion......

[KathyM]

....In your opinion......

Fact and truth are absolute, not opinion. No matter what people believe to be true doesn't change what IS true. You don't believe Christian teachings to be true. Millions of people believe them to be true. We will all know the truth one day. I only hope you will have a change of heart before that day comes. I'll be praying for you.

[zengirl]

Fact and truth are absolute, not opinion. No matter what people believe to be true doesn't change what IS true. You don't believe Christian teachings to be true. Millions of people believe them to be true. We will all know the truth one day. I only hope you will have a change of heart before that day comes. I'll be praying for you.

 

Your truth doesn't have the evidence behind it to call it a truth in the here and now. More people believe your religion to be false, in the world, than believe it to be true. That's an actual fact. I don't ask that people stop believing whatever it is that they believe --- I merely ask that no one pretend their religion has a monopoly on truth.

 

Additionally, even the bolded is a false assumption that only applies to your particular religion. You believe we'll all know the truth someday because of what your religion believes about the end of life. Personally, I don't believe that, nor does my religion.

[TaraMaiden]

Fact and truth are absolute, not opinion.

 

when you are able to irrefutably prove your facts as truth, I'll amend my phraseology.

until then, as far as i am concerned, it's purely speculative opinion.

 

No matter what people believe to be true doesn't change what IS true.

and no matter how much you protest it's true - you can't prove it, so it may be "YOUR" Truth, but it's not universal truth, and as such, objective.

 

You don't believe Christian teachings to be true. Millions of people believe them to be true.

That doesn't make them any truer.

And quite rightly, you quantify it by using the term 'believe' as opposed to 'know'.

which makes it a matter of opinion, not fact.

 

We will all know the truth one day.

i already know 4 indisputable truths, so i'm fine with those.

 

I only hope you will have a change of heart before that day comes.

 

honey, if it ain't happened now - and bear in mind my upbringing - it sure as eggs won't happen any time soon.

don't hold your breath.

 

I'll be praying for you.

and I will recite my Metta chant for you at the Buddhist temple, this weekend, for you.

it's the least i can do!

[xxoo]

Christian "truth" varies by denomination and church. Different Christian leaders interpret the Bible different ways, currently and historically. So even within Christianity, which Christian teachings are the truth?

[KathyM]

Your truth doesn't have the evidence behind it to call it a truth in the here and now. More people believe your religion to be false, in the world, than believe it to be true. That's an actual fact. I don't ask that people stop believing whatever it is that they believe --- I merely ask that no one pretend their religion has a monopoly on truth.

 

Additionally, even the bolded is a false assumption that only applies to your particular religion. You believe we'll all know the truth someday because of what your religion believes about the end of life. Personally, I don't believe that, nor does my religion.

Christianity is the world's most prolific religion, with 2.1 billion people worldwide identifying themselves as Christian. The next largest is Islam, which is 1.5 billion people. The Jewish faith has 14 million people worldwide. That means that over 54% of all people in the world, the majority, believe in the same God. All Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in the same God. 33% of the people in the world are Christians. 6% of the world's population are Buddists. 94% of the world's population believe your religion (Buddism) to be false. I'm not sure why you brought this up. :confused:As I said, truth is absolute. The fact that it is my religion doesn't make it any more or less of the truth. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. You don't believe we will all know the truth one day? That's your belief. I believe we will.

[zengirl]

Christianity is the world's most prolific religion, with 2.1 billion people worldwide identifying themselves as Christian. The next largest is Islam, which is 1.5 billion people. The Jewish faith has 14 million people worldwide. That means that over 54% of all people in the world, the majority, believe in the same God. All Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in the same God. 33% of the people in the world are Christians. 6% of the world's population are Buddists. 94% of the world's population believe your religion (Buddism) to be false. I'm not sure why you brought this up. :confused:As I said, truth is absolute. The fact that it is my religion doesn't make it any more or less of the truth. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. You don't believe we will all know the truth one day? That's your belief. I believe we will.

 

Truth is absolute, in theory, but the idea that your "truth" is true and that you can push that at other people and ask them to agree to it is arrogant since you have no proof.

 

And, fwiw, actually 1.9 billion people are Buddhists -- it's at 27% of the global population, just shy of Christianity and that's from a religion that discourages proselytizing, ironically. At any rate, the numbers weren't my point. My point was none of us have the truth.

 

I've never claimed to know the mechanisms to the Universe 100%. I've claimed a personal belief in it. You claim your personal belief as "truth." I find that offensive.

 

As for Muslims, Christians, and Jews . . . I've studied those religions thoroughly and disagree there as well. Most Islamic people I know and Jewish people I know don't follow the religious traditions you do and often feel annoyed at statements like the one you just made. They're all monotheistic, but that doesn't mean it's the same God or religion.

Edited April 19, 2012 by zengirl

[TaraMaiden]

....All Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in the same God.

 

Bull.

Try telling them that.

If Christians alone cannot decide on any one even description or definition of god, you really think these three religions believe they believev in the same god?

Most of them would argue that point.

 

6% of the world's population are Buddists.

That's 'Buddhists'

94% of the world's population believe your religion (Buddism) to be false.

Oh stop being melodramatic and at least get something factually right....

No they don't.

Many of them do not consider it to be a religion because it has no singular omnipotent god.

But many Christians follow Buddhism consciously, (I know of at least 30 personally) and all of them do so unconsciously, because everything /Buddhism taught was then picked up by Christianity, as Buddhism precedes it by over 500 years.... so basically, you're treading in the Buddha's footsteps...

 

 

As I said, truth is absolute.

no, actually,it isn't.

with regard to a belief in a deity, there is no such thing as absolute truth. There can't be, because even the belief system you ascribe to, asks that you have faith.

 

The fact that it is my religion doesn't make it any more or less of the truth.

..."in my mind"....

 

 

You don't believe we will all know the truth one day? That's your belief. I believe we will.

Belief does not imply fact.