MM/OW Sex with BS...Dealbreaker???

[RecordProducer]

Do you think that if your mother had moved on to a happy, functional, non-abusive R/M that you would feel the same or would you still want your parents married (assuming their M wasn't happy or functional either)?

I would've definitely been happy had they both re-married other people and lived happily with them.

I don't know know what your reasons were for leaving either spouse

I didn't leave my husbands, they left me and I don't really know why. I have my theories, though.

 

Prioritizing one's ego might actually include leaving for the sake of the children instead of staying in the comfort of your home or lifestyle. Just sayin.

I doubt that any woman divorces a cheater for the sake of her children.

 

Cheating is a form of emotional abuse, and no woman (or man) should have to put up with it ...and no parent should ever show their children, by example , that they should have to endure it.

Agreed.

 

The latest studies in child psych, a field closely scrutinized by my industry is this: It is not how happy mom and dad are (kids could give a rat's patootie about your romantic happiness) as it is the degree of ACRIMONY in either the marriage or the divorce.

 

So if married and you treat each other with kindness and respect, regardless of an affair, the kids will be fine. No sarcasm. petty digs and arguments, power plays, etc.

 

If divorced, or heading to divorce, and you treat each other with kindness and respect, the kids will be okay.

 

Be sad, lonely, angry, vindictive, preoccupied, depressed about your marriage or your divorce, your kids are on their way to lifelong issues and messed up-ness. Kids love mommy and daddy equally!

 

We always have a choice on how we CHOOSE to respond to the actions of our SO. The damage is done when we do not act like a mature adult in control of our emotions in front of our children.

Thanks for sharing these study results!

[donnamaybe]

I doubt that any woman divorces a cheater for the sake of her children.

 

I divorced a selfish prick (is there any difference between that and a cheater?) for the sake of OUR child. When I saw the look on my son's face during yet another squabble between his father and I (acrimony), I knew it had to happen. I guess you think maybe I should just suck it up and accept his selfish, self serving behavior. What would that have taught my child? The biggest jackass wins? I wasn't having MY child grow up believing that?

[Elizabeth Southerns]

There is no assumption of fidelity in marriage. There was vows said before God, family, and friends that include "forsaking all others", until death do you part.

 

Sometimes. Other times there is a legal contract signed before a magistrate which makes no mention of "forsaking all others". And other times there are no vows at all, simply a long-term live-in arrangement which has become a de facto M over time.

 

Assuming that one size fits all simply because that is one's own experience is erroneous.

 

Essentially all the affairs we encounter on LS occur in locations where adultery has a legal meaning.

 

All? Every single one? You know this, how?

 

Approaching the issue just on a basic premise of logic and rationality: if a person is married and made vows in front of family, friends and even God (for those who did this type of symbolic ceremony). If they did ALL that....and are now having a SECRET affair, behind this other person's back...how and what gives you confidence or how can you be shocked should they betray you and your INFORMAL A agreement?

 

Why would an A agreement hold more weight than a formal, marriage agreement?

 

If the formal agreement did not include vows in front of friends and family, and was made for tax purposes, the MP's heart would not have been in it; whereas an informal agreement made for reasons of love or devotion would carry a great deal more psychic weight for them.

 

I'm not claiming that that is the case in every A. I am merely answering the question of "what would give you the confidence..." and why MPs and APs may attach greater weight to an "informal" agreement than a formal one.

 

Yes, so many times people make the mistake of thinking that a love interest will find them so wonderful that they will.see how great a future with them could be. The thing is, when dealing with some folks there is no level of wonderful good enough to turn them from a selfish cheating liar into someone with honesty and integrity.

 

And then again, when exposed to "wonderful", others have sufficient integrity to recognise the need to explore why a bad situation (the M) led them to behave with less than optimal integrity so that they do the necessary work to address such issues.

 

I feel rather sad that some people see only the dregs of humankind, and are only exposed to incorrigible liars, cheats and people of no integrity. There are so many wonderful people out there in the world, waiting to be discovered - people who may through unfortunate circumstance have made an error of judgment, or people whose circumstances precluded them acting with complete honesty toward an oppressive spouse, or people whose youth and naivete led to decisions made without the advantage of the wisdom and judgment that maturity and experience bring - but who nevertheless are fine, admirable people of honour and integrity. I feel sorry for those who know only the former and not the latter group.

[donnamaybe]

Sometimes. Other times there is a legal contract signed before a magistrate which makes no mention of "forsaking all others". And other times there are no vows at all, simply a long-term live-in arrangement which has become a de facto M over time.

 

Assuming that one size fits all simply because that is one's own experience is erroneous.

Uh, I think a spouse in THAT kind of M situation would have a clue that monogomy wasn't in the cards. Would a spouse whose heart wasn't involved in the M give a rat's arse anyway? I don't think that's what is being discussed in this thread. In fact, if the M was for money or some other issue that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the heart, I believe a spouse would be OVERJOYED that they didn't have to be the one to satisfy their partner's carnal needs.

 

I feel rather sad that some people see only the dregs of humankind, and are only exposed to incorrigible liars, cheats and people of no integrity.

Yeah. Many of us are sad about that too.

[frozensprouts]

Sometimes. Other times there is a legal contract signed before a magistrate which makes no mention of "forsaking all others". And other times there are no vows at all, simply a long-term live-in arrangement which has become a de facto M over time.

 

Assuming that one size fits all simply because that is one's own experience is erroneous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the formal agreement did not include vows in front of friends and family, and was made for tax purposes, the MP's heart would not have been in it; whereas an informal agreement made for reasons of love or devotion would carry a great deal more psychic weight for them.

 

to me, that would also demonstrate the value a person puts on their word...marrying just to obtain citizenship, to get a tax break, etc. all the while presenting to the "powers that be" that the relationship is a marriage based on commitment shows that the person has the ability to lie and deceive whenever it suits their purposes to do so...

 

I'm not claiming that that is the case in every A. I am merely answering the question of "what would give you the confidence..." and why MPs and APs may attach greater weight to an "informal" agreement than a formal one.

 

 

 

 

And then again, when exposed to "wonderful", others have sufficient integrity to recognise the need to explore why a bad situation (the M) led them to behave with less than optimal integrity so that they do the necessary work to address such issues.

 

 

I feel rather sad that some people see only the dregs of humankind, and are only exposed to incorrigible liars, cheats and people of no integrity. There are so many wonderful people out there in the world, waiting to be discovered - people who may through unfortunate circumstance have made an error of judgment, or people whose circumstances precluded them acting with complete honesty toward an oppressive spouse, or people whose youth and naivete led to decisions made without the advantage of the wisdom and judgment that maturity and experience bring - but who nevertheless are fine, admirable people of honour and integrity. I feel sorry for those who know only the former and not the latter group.

 

:laugh:I feel sorry for you, as you seem to have a very skewed definition of "honor' and "integrity"...

If one lies, cheats, etc. in order to get what they want, they are no person of" honor and integrity"...a person with honor and integrity is honest...they don't lie to others to get what they want, they do not consistently feel that the ends always justify the means, a person with honor and integrity tells the truth, owns their mistakes and learns from them, and doesn't treat people like cr@p just because it gets them what they want. A person of honor and integrity makes damn sure they are finished one relationship before starting another, and they recognize that other people have feelings that have value and should be respected simply because they exist and not because it brings them any benefit... they do not have one set of values abut how they should be treated and another set of values for how they treat others

a person can cheat, realize they are making a mistake, decide to stop ( whether that means staying in the marriage or ending the marriage) learn from their mistake and move forward...they don't keep hurting others just so they can feel good...that is not "integrity" it is being a jerk to a least two people ( and probably more)...there is no "honor" in that

 

as for people who feel differently than you seeing only the bad things in people or having experience with the dregs of society... well, I would argue that, in fact, we see most in society as being basically decent people who are worthy of good treatment and respect...this is why many of us view cheating as wrong...because it HURTS so many people

 

 

 

 

please find responses in bold

Edited February 8, 2012 by frozensprouts

[donnamaybe]

Actually, one should be able to expect their partner won't cheat unless an open R is agreed upon. If it is so silly to assume a partner in any LTR won't cheat, why is it that they don't just make known their want for "strange?" I can tell you why. Because the cheater knows their partner "assumes" they will be faithful.

 

So once again it comes down to a cheater sneaking around and lying instead of having a smidgen of integrity.

[donnamaybe]

as for people who feel differently than you seeing only the bad things in people or having experience with the dregs of society... well, I would argue that, in fact, we see most in society as being basically decent people who are worthy of good treatment and respect...this is why many of us view cheating as wrong...because it HURTS so many people

Yep. You nailed it.

 

The people I routinely associate with are SO far removed from the type of people who sneak around and lie and hurt others just to get away with what they already know is wrong, which is why it is SUCH an anomaly to find there are people running amok who just don't seem to give a damn about anyone but themselves.

[frozensprouts]

Actually, one should be able to expect their partner won't cheat unless an open R is agreed upon. If it is so silly to assume a partner in any LTR won't cheat, why is it that they don't just make known their want for "strange?" I can tell you why. Because the cheater knows their partner "assumes" they will be faithful.

 

So once again it comes down to a cheater sneaking around and lying instead of having a smidgen of integrity.

 

 

or, better yet, why even get into a long term relationship anyway? what's the point? If one feels that they want a long term relationship but that they can't be monogamous, then why not tell the other person that, and let them decide for themselves what they want to do? Maybe they'd decide that was okay,or they may choose not to stay with you, which would hurt, but at least you'd have been honest and treated them with respect and dignity.

 

why is that such a hard thing for some people?

 

the very fact that they don't tell their spouses that they are cheating would lend credence to the idea that the spouse, in fact, most certainly doesn't think that seeing other people is okay...if it was, why not tell them that they are seeing someone else? why hide it?

Edited February 8, 2012 by frozensprouts

[donnamaybe]

or, better yet, why even get into a long term relationship anyway? what's the point? If one feels that they want a long term relationship but that they can't be monogamous, then why not tell the other person that, and let them decide for themselves what they want to do? Maybe they'd decide that was okay,or they may choose not to stay with you, which would hurt, but at least you'd have been honest and treated them with respect and dignity.

 

why is that such a hard thing for some people?

 

the very fact that they don't tell their spouses that they are cheating would lend credence to the idea that the spouse, in fact, most certainly doesn't think that seeing other people is okay...if it was, why not tell them that they are seeing someone else? why hide it?

Exactly. And what I REALLY don't get is this need for some folks to make lying and sneaking okay. I mean, seriously, when is that kind of behavior EVER okay? Oh, wait. I know. When it somehow benefits them.

[Spark1111]

I see what you are saying, but I wonder how many women or men could consonantly look the other way and show no emotional reaction to their spouses long term affair...

 

How many people could continue, for years and years, to never show any kind of emotional response to their spouses cheating? I would expect it would be really hard, as most kids, as they get older, will know when something is bothering mom or dad. No matter how much we lie to protect them, they find out the truth anyway. i know more than a few adults who knew dad was cheating on mom or who found out when they were an adult, and it bothers them a lot...but at least now they know what was going on all those years.

 

If the children do find out one day that dad was cheating on mom for years and years and mom just put up with it and lied to hide it, what has this taught the kids?

 

 

 

that women should have to put up with being treated badly by their husbands ( or men by their wives, if the situation is reversed)

 

that dishonesty is okay and an acceptable way to solve a problem

 

that emotions need to be suppressed and a happy "facade" be kept n place , no matter how bad you are feeling

 

I'm not saying that the parents should drag out their dirty laundry and air it in front of the kids, rather i am saying that if a husband ( or wife) wants to continue their extra marital relationship after their spouse finds out, then their spouse should never feel obligated to stay " for the sake of the children" when they are miserable. Rather, they should end the marriage on the best terms possible...if the children need to know why, then all they need to be told is something along the lines of mom and dad still love you, but aren't happy living together anymore, and it's best for all of us if mom and dad to live apart...we will still all be a family and we still love you just as much and will do everything we can to make you happy.

 

FS, I agree with you as I would think most of the posters here as LS would as they are trying to heal from the pain of betrayal.

 

Betrayal that causes pain is in direct proportion to how much to loved your spouse and valued fidelity.

 

Many marriages are NOT like that. Many marriages are like a contract; he pays the bills, I care for the kids, we have a nice enough life.

 

As long as the implied contract, or status quo is not terribly disrupted by infidelity, than I believe many can/do look the other way and carry on.

 

If you cannot do that, not even for the sake of the kids, no one is advising anyone to do that.

 

The kids will feel a parent's pain or anger at a very, very young age. It would defeat the purpose.

[MissBee]

 

 

If the formal agreement did not include vows in front of friends and family, and was made for tax purposes, the MP's heart would not have been in it; whereas an informal agreement made for reasons of love or devotion would carry a great deal more psychic weight for them.

 

I'm not claiming that that is the case in every A. I am merely answering the question of "what would give you the confidence..." and why MPs and APs may attach greater weight to an "informal" agreement than a formal one.

 

 

 

I specifically cited the cases that weren't what you mentioned i.e. the avg marriage in which the couple came together, were inlove, someone proposed, they both went in happy and content of their own freewill, based on love/romance etc.I do not really see what purpose it serves, beside a superficial rhetorical strategy, to bring up some wayward cases that in no way represent the scope of the discussion. In those average cases, how does one rationalize the breaking of that formal and informal agreement and somehow feel your informal A agreement will fare better? On what do you base that belief?

 

And if one is married for tax reasons, which I know 2 people who have done business marriages for immigration purposes, why would they expect a real commitment in a sham marriage? The two business marriages I know of don't expect commitment from the other person. They went to a court house to do it, one of the "couples' doesn't even live together and the other, they live together sometimes as roommates, but there is no pretense that it is a real relationship. They both have other partners and separate lives but are friends for the business marriage purpose. They both know that it is a business marriage. I don't see why one would need to have an affair in a business marriage

 

Also: would you consider someone who has claimed to be a part of multiple As (exhibiting not a lapse of judgment once, but a conscientious decision, time and again) as someone who is part of that group of honest people with superb integrity of which you wish more people knew?

Edited February 8, 2012 by MissBee

[Mimolicious]

EEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Who'd want someone else's backwash?

That's soooooooo GROOOOOOOOOSSSSS!

 

 

The irony of this post Daisy. :lmao: Hello Ladies, long time don't read you.

 

To the OP. Bebe, you're one person living in reality. The other people who think different, not so much. Yes, a MM will sleep with his W and will do all you mentioned, it's more typical than it is not. That is all. Some choose to live in denial to justify their role in the A or their reason for tagging along.

Not all though. You know, there is always the ultimate "love story" type A, where he sleeps in the basement.

 

Bye bye!

[SoMovinOn]

Actually, one should be able to expect their partner won't cheat unless an open R is agreed upon. If it is so silly to assume a partner in any LTR won't cheat, why is it that they don't just make known their want for "strange?" I can tell you why. Because the cheater knows their partner "assumes" they will be faithful.

 

So once again it comes down to a cheater sneaking around and lying instead of having a smidgen of integrity.

 

Perhaps some part of the problem then is people making assumptions, or having expectations, which defy reality.

 

If it is true that somewhere around 50% of all married people cheat at some point in their marriage, any married person should logically think it likely either they or their spouse will be unfaithful at some point.

 

Disappointment is based on unmet expectations. Perhaps infidelity would be less devastating if people had more realistic expectations.

[SoMovinOn]

The people I routinely associate with are SO far removed from the type of people who sneak around and lie and hurt others just to get away with what they already know is wrong, which is why it is SUCH an anomaly to find there are people running amok who just don't seem to give a damn about anyone but themselves.

 

What comes to mind when you say that is the people interviewed on the evening news as one of the friends who says "But I've know him for years! He was the nicest, most wonderful guy! No one could ever possibly have imagined he'd do THIS!" ...

 

You think you know people, but ... I can assure you, they don't tell you everything, even if you think they do ... especially if they are doing something wrong or something they think you will not approve of.

[SoMovinOn]

i have never understood why it is so hard for some people to separate/divorce prior to sleeping around.

 

There are as many variables and factors as there are people. It is often difficult to understand a situation beyond your own experiences.

 

I never understood why some men kill their wives rather than divorce them. Then I watched a friend of mine go through one of the most brutal divorces *ever*. His psycho bitch wife made any horror movie I've ever seen look like a Disney classic. If she had "disappeared" at some point, I would have completely understood why. ... not that it's right to kill someone - my point being it was something I couldn't understand until I was provided a completely different perspective.

 

Likewise with people not getting divorced. It's easy to say "Get divorced, THEN you can go out and date whomever you want", but it isn't always that simple. There are a million reasons why people can't easily get divorced. Sometimes, it's as simple as them not being able to afford it, especially in today's economy and job market.

 

However, having said that, in some instances where divorce is not possible, I don't see why those people don't just agree to live together "separated" and be honest about dating other people. *I* can understand that easily, because that's how STBXW and I did it.

[donnamaybe]

What comes to mind when you say that is the people interviewed on the evening news as one of the friends who says "But I've know him for years! He was the nicest, most wonderful guy! No one could ever possibly have imagined he'd do THIS!" ...

 

You think you know people, but ... I can assure you, they don't tell you everything, even if you think they do ... especially if they are doing something wrong or something they think you will not approve of.

 

You think I don't know plenty of cheaters?!

 

One used to brag how he had the "perfect wife," and it was true. He was arrogant enough to think she wouldn't find out. She dumped his lying arse. There are others who are easy to spot. Some of whom have had the mistaken notion they had a shot with me.

 

Like I said, I don't associate with that type. Doesn't mean they don't exist. We live in a small town. Someone's sneaky ways aren't easily absorbed into the community here.

[donnamaybe]

Perhaps some part of the problem then is people making assumptions, or having expectations, which defy reality.

 

If it is true that somewhere around 50% of all married people cheat at some point in their marriage, any married person should logically think it likely either they or their spouse will be unfaithful at some point.

 

Disappointment is based on unmet expectations. Perhaps infidelity would be less devastating if people had more realistic expectations.

 

So go ahead and finalize that R you have going since you have kept such low expectations and have no care whether she cheats on you too.

 

Know why my sweety and I won't cheat on each other? Because we hold ourselves to the same standard we expect in each other. I understand it takes strength of character to follow through on that.

 

But what a sad existence having to start off every R expecting to be betrayed.

Edited February 9, 2012 by donnamaybe

[LifesontheUp]

Perhaps infidelity would be less devastating if people had more realistic expectations.

 

 

So the woman whose husband abused their kids behind her back, should just lower her expectations and be realistic?

 

Wow, just wow

 

Realistc expectations apply to everything surely? So I take it you would be okay with the example above cause after all, just be more realistic eh?

Edited February 10, 2012 by LifesontheUp

[SoMovinOn]

So the woman whose husband abused their kids behind her back, should just lower her expectations and be realistic?

 

Wow, just wow

 

Realistc expectations apply to everything surely? So I take it you would be okay with the example above cause after all, just be more realistic eh?

 

Yeah... seriously Wow!! ... that anyone would be unable to grasp the simple application of realistic expectations. Mind boggling, isn't it?

 

If we need to go ridiculous, why not ask if someone being murdered shouldn't simply lower their expectations to accept the reality they are being murdered?

[SoMovinOn]

Like I said, I don't associate with that type. Doesn't mean they don't exist. We live in a small town. Someone's sneaky ways aren't easily absorbed into the community here.

 

Unfortunate for you then, leaving you limited to people who *will* hang out with that type - assuming, in your small town, everyone knows you're a former cheater.

[Gentlegirl]

LMAO! You mean lower our standards? No thanks. There are too many other people doing that already.

 

 

That's where I went wrong and I admit it. I did something I have never and will never do again.

 

Good one Glinda.

 

GG

[donnamaybe]

Unfortunate for you then, leaving you limited to people who *will* hang out with that type - assuming, in your small town, everyone knows you're a former cheater.

 

Hah! So not true, but continue blathering on. It is SO entertaining!

 

I told the ex we were through before I started seeing other guys. I just didn't have the heart to kick him out of my home immediately as he had nowhere to go, and I didn't want to rub his nose in the fact that I was dating. Sound familiar?

[donnamaybe]

That's where I went wrong and I admit it. I did something I have never and will never do again.

 

Good one Glinda.

 

GG

 

I used to lower my standards as well, trying to hang onto a R with a man who wasn't worthy of me. Thank goodness those days are behind me and I have the best man ever!

[SoMovinOn]

Hah! So not true, but continue blathering on. It is SO entertaining!

 

I guess I misunderstood your history. I was under the impression your reason for being here was you felt you had been involved in cheating in some manner.

 

If that is not true, then I have to wonder, if you've never been a BS, WS or OW, what attracts you to this particular forum? Do you have feel having zero experience in the topic being discussed allows you to offer a unique perspective which may benefit others?

[donnamaybe]

I guess I misunderstood your history. I was under the impression your reason for being here was you felt you had been involved in cheating in some manner.

 

If that is not true, then I have to wonder, if you've never been a BS, WS or OW, what attracts you to this particular forum? Do you have feel having zero experience in the topic being discussed allows you to offer a unique perspective which may benefit others?

 

I post where I choose. I have had people thank me for telling them some truths which are valid across any number of situations. One being that lying and sneaking is a lousy character trait whether it be in an A situation or elsewhere. You don't have to have been in a years long A to know that.

 

Perhaps being in a years long A makes some want to forget it though.