donnamaybe Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I love someone for who they are, ... without judging them for imperfections, mistakes, indiscretions. One person I trust more than anyone I know, who I'd trust with my life... was convicted of murder and did time in prison. ... but then, I think it's likely overall, that I hang with a bit tougher crowd than you. Wow. What a person does, how they treat others (honesty vs. deceit) is absolutely who they are. The rest is just skin, bones, organs, and blood. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well, seems to me I do understand, and will just have to agree to disagree with you, SMO. For me...actions are always a far better indicator of a persons values/morals than what they say that those values/morals are. It's one thing to SAY you hate affairs...and another thing entirely to say that the one you're currently in is acceptable/justifiable for (insert whatever reason/justification you want to here) reason. Your words say one thing...your actions state something completely opposite about your values. There's a disconnect in there somewhere. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 i accept 1-6 except the sex part. i have been with my MM for 6 years now. the reason MM strayed is that he wasn't getting any at home for over 5 years. so our EMA was purely physical, on and off, for the 3 three years and now steady, loving relationship the last 3 years. i know ocassionally they do it since last summer because MM gave his BW an ultimatum, open marriage or he walks. well dumb broad said she would give him borin old sex. grrr. lol. it's so rare that we dont talk about it. Wow, way to bash his wife. Remember you're only hearing HIS side of things and of course he's going to paint the picture of how unhappy and how his sex life with his wife sucks, to keep YOU interested and happy, into HIM. 6 years is a very long time. I hope you have no expectations or hopes that he's going to divorce and be all yours one day because it seems he's perfectly happy having his cake (having you and his wife) fulfill all his needs. He gets to have the benefits of staying married, live the life and then he has you on the side. It's an affair. I highly doubt he's even had ONE conversation with his wife about an open marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
Stellar Wench Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I love someone for who they are, ... without judging them for imperfections, mistakes, indiscretions.SoMovinOn, What are you standards for determining who someone is? Link to post Share on other sites
Stellar Wench Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Wow. What a person does, how they treat others (honesty vs. deceit) is absolutely who they are. The rest is just skin, bones, organs, and blood.No one is perfect, and everyone has faults, but it's not healthy to be completely non-judgmental when choosing a life partner. I have learned that a lot of people in affairs or chronically difficult dating relationships love a person not for who they are, but how the other person makes them feel. They are able to ignore red flags because of the good feelings they get about themselves by being with that person. When asked what they love about another person, they usually respond with very superficial things such as he makes me feel good, he makes me feel pretty, he's hot, he's great in bed, he makes me happy. These things are nice, but they don't endure because they aren't the makings of a healthy lasting relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 SoMovinOn, What are you standards for determining who someone is? Looking at the whole person, all their actions and deeds, their mindset... *everything* about them - not just one single thing. I know a lot of people who've done bad things - far worse than having sex, or a relationship, with someone other than your spouse, sometimes, things they've gone to prison for. Yet, some of those people are the people whom I'd trust the most (and, yes, others are very bad people whom I wouldn't trust at all). The people I trust the least are those who work very hard to try to convince me how perfect and holy they are, who feel they can judge everyone else based on some perceived "honorable" standard. Generally, those people have the most skeletons in their closet. Unlike someone involved in an A, these people lie constantly - to themselves, and to everyone else. You never know what to expect from them, because they won't admit who they are, what they've done... Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Wow. What a person does, how they treat others (honesty vs. deceit) is absolutely who they are. The rest is just skin, bones, organs, and blood. But the way they treat others, the actions you see, may all be just a show, deliberately intended to hide from you who they really are. "Wow! I can't believe he did that. He seemed like such a nice guy. He was always helping everyone, he volunteered at the local homeless shelter, he saved puppies from drowning, he gave nuns ride to the doctor so they could get their pregnancy tests... I can't believe such an awesome guy could do such a terrible thing." I'd rather deal with someone who tells me ... "Just so you know, I did time for killing a guy. I screwed up bad, did my time. Prison sucked. I lost a lot of my life. I'm not going back there again." Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 "Wow! I can't believe he did that. He seemed like such a nice guy. He was always helping everyone, he volunteered at the local homeless shelter, he saved puppies from drowning, he gave nuns ride to the doctor so they could get their pregnancy tests... I can't believe such an awesome guy could do such a terrible thing." " So, I admit this is the only post I have read in this thread. Just wondering about the nuns and their pregnancy tests. Now to what I believe to be the topic of this thread. IMO, just the fact that there is a wife should be the deal breaker. Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well, seems to me I do understand, and will just have to agree to disagree with you, SMO. For me...actions are always a far better indicator of a persons values/morals than what they say that those values/morals are. It's one thing to SAY you hate affairs...and another thing entirely to say that the one you're currently in is acceptable/justifiable for (insert whatever reason/justification you want to here) reason. Your words say one thing...your actions state something completely opposite about your values. There's a disconnect in there somewhere. Funnily, in one of my classes we're learning how to conduct ethnographic research and our professor ( a renowned anthropologist for 40 years, might I add) was saying that when you're doing research in a culture not your own, you don't ask people things like "So tell me who you are and why you do what you do"....as it is ALWAYS an idealized version. We all will tell a story of the ideal morals and values we espouse and believe our culture represents...but the lived reality is often different from the story about it. So through experience he's learned that along with asking....you observe life as it is lived by the people and what they actually do. Thought this spoke very well to your point, as it is not some make-believe principle, but an actual realistic, pragmatic notion. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 But the way they treat others, the actions you see, may all be just a show, deliberately intended to hide from you who they really are. "Wow! I can't believe he did that. He seemed like such a nice guy. He was always helping everyone, he volunteered at the local homeless shelter, he saved puppies from drowning, he gave nuns ride to the doctor so they could get their pregnancy tests... I can't believe such an awesome guy could do such a terrible thing." I'd rather deal with someone who tells me ... "Just so you know, I did time for killing a guy. I screwed up bad, did my time. Prison sucked. I lost a lot of my life. I'm not going back there again."In other words, lowering your standards and accepting the unacceptable in order to not be hurt. Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 No one is perfect, and everyone has faults, but it's not healthy to be completely non-judgmental when choosing a life partner. I have learned that a lot of people in affairs or chronically difficult dating relationships love a person not for who they are, but how the other person makes them feel. They are able to ignore red flags because of the good feelings they get about themselves by being with that person. When asked what they love about another person, they usually respond with very superficial things such as he makes me feel good, he makes me feel pretty, he's hot, he's great in bed, he makes me happy. These things are nice, but they don't endure because they aren't the makings of a healthy lasting relationship. This is really true. My relationship with my ex was this way. At the time though, I swore I was deeply in love...when the fog dissipated and I started to consider what did I like about him, as a person, as a person in general, void of romance, feelings, sex, etc. NOTHING! None of what I appreciated about him were enduring character traits or anything of substance. I realized I liked how he made me feel and the romance and fantasy...yes you can be with a single person and still be in a fantasy relationship, where you're projecting and loving who you want them to be or their potential or simply love the feelings you get around them...which is not about them at all. Link to post Share on other sites
frozensprouts Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Does it really matter what someone says their beliefs/values are if they don't live up to these values/beliefs? Doesn't going against your own values and beliefs make one a hypocrite? some have said to me "you never know what you will do in a situation unless you are in it"...but in most cases, i don't agree. with respect to being in an affair, I do know I wouldn't be in one, as doing so would go against my values and beliefs, and I would end up being really unhappy. I don't see , from a purely pragmatic point, any value in that, so why do it? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Your summation and comparability is very odd SMO to me, anyway. I see that post as rationalization on your part. I believe that cutting someone some slack is an act of kindness because I want and expect them to do the same for me for I have made mistakes, more than one and I suppose it depends upon how someone viewed it but some might say I have some skeletons in my own closet........but YET, when someone illustrates a long definite patterns of undesirable behavior that isn't someone who I want to let into my life, nor have around my daughter. I can certainly forgive someone their past mistakes but depending upon their history and just how long of an undesirable (from my standpoint) it is, then it's not someone I want to be close to. Doesn't make me holier than thou, nor does it make me rigid or unforgiving, it's just means I'm looking out for myself. I agree! Reminds me of an article I read on BR, about how people who date clearly dubious people always have excuses about not being perfect, not judging etc...and often the reality is that they themselves feel inadequate, so they don't feel worthy of standards and feel like they have no right to have standards so they give anyone a chance no matter the red flag. They also feel like they don't want anyone to judge them, so they hope if they accept everyone, they too will be accepted and they mask it under a veneer of being very open and empathetic, but obviously it is a dangerous and unfiltered openness to even clearly dangerous people or situations, fueled by one's issues and not any deep sense of love. People like this also find it hard to love themselves and put themselves first, so usually try to love dubious people a lot and seem self-sacrificing, because they throw themselves into "helping", "fixing" a string of people with issues and then point to their sacrificial scars as a marker for how caring they are....but they lack the most fundamental care, that of self. Reminds me of the safety instructions on airplanes, where they instruct you that in case of emergency you must put YOUR OWN oxygen mask on before trying to assist others. The people described do the opposite, they try to help everyone else before themselves, and usually they help no one...as without their own mask, they are too weak and disoriented anyway. It is a strange dichotomy that is exaggerated i.e. they believe having standards is akin to being holier-than-thou or perfect and so swing to the opposite end where all is excusable if you squint really hard and all is grey. Some of us exhibit this trait in lesser degrees, then some, their whole life, from the friends they keep to who they date exhibit this pattern. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Stellar Wench Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Looking at the whole person, all their actions and deeds, their mindset... *everything* about them - not just one single thing. I know a lot of people who've done bad things - far worse than having sex, or a relationship, with someone other than your spouse, sometimes, things they've gone to prison for. Yet, some of those people are the people whom I'd trust the most (and, yes, others are very bad people whom I wouldn't trust at all). The people I trust the least are those who work very hard to try to convince me how perfect and holy they are, who feel they can judge everyone else based on some perceived "honorable" standard. Generally, those people have the most skeletons in their closet. Unlike someone involved in an A, these people lie constantly - to themselves, and to everyone else. You never know what to expect from them, because they won't admit who they are, what they've done...Everyone makes mistakes, and no one wants to be around someone that's fake. You seem to value people that won't scrutinize you or tell you that you could be making better choices, so I can see where befriending a murderer would work for you. There's a difference between having standards and being non-judgmental, and I'm not sure people having affairs know the difference. Link to post Share on other sites
jaloka Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 no expectations at all. we have a mutually beneficial EMR. i have dated others and went NC for months at a time. and for the open marriage, we have had many discussions on that topic. MM brought up the open marriage conversation with his wife when l i got engaged last year. he flipped out and tried to get out of his marriage, never seen him do that. i told MM i couldn't be with him. the engagement ended, long story but came down to my finance not wanting kids. so went back to MM. it works for us, doesn't for others but i don't judge. i never thought i would be the OW but here i am 6 yrs later. Wow, way to bash his wife. Remember you're only hearing HIS side of things and of course he's going to paint the picture of how unhappy and how his sex life with his wife sucks, to keep YOU interested and happy, into HIM. 6 years is a very long time. I hope you have no expectations or hopes that he's going to divorce and be all yours one day because it seems he's perfectly happy having his cake (having you and his wife) fulfill all his needs. He gets to have the benefits of staying married, live the life and then he has you on the side. It's an affair. I highly doubt he's even had ONE conversation with his wife about an open marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 In other words, lowering your standards and accepting the unacceptable in order to not be hurt. Wow. No. Especially not from the post you were responding to. ... but, it does seem very important to you to have me saying that somehow, so ... sure Donna ... just for you ... no matter what I say, what I truly mean is you should lower your standards and accept the unacceptable in order to not be hurt. Now that we have that out of the way, lets move on, eh? Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Does it really matter what someone says their beliefs/values are if they don't live up to these values/beliefs? It is *extremely* important! If there weren't millions of people willing to claim to follow one set of beliefs/values while living something completely different, organized religions would crumble, politicians would cease to exist and internet forum postings would go down significantly! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 You seem to value people that won't scrutinize you or tell you that you could be making better choices, so I can see where befriending a murderer would work for you. LOL! Uh ... no. The crowd I hang with will tell me, or anyone, exactly what they think, especially if they think you're screwing up. Why would you assume I befriended a murderer, as opposed to having a friend who murdered someone, and we remained friends? What were the details of his murder conviction? What were the details of the incident? (certainly you know, as you've read the label and clearly understand all there is to know.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It is *extremely* important! If there weren't millions of people willing to claim to follow one set of beliefs/values while living something completely different, organized religions would crumble, politicians would cease to exist and internet forum postings would go down significantly! Yes, postings would indeed drop, as well as the number of false personae created for the purpose of further deceit. Everyone fails from time to time, but there really are people who raise it to an art form. I'll gladly take someone who strives to do their best, but I will never accept someone who blithely wanders through life without a thought for who ends up as collateral damage via their selfish actions. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
frozensprouts Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Yes, postings would indeed drop, as well as the number of false personae created for the purpose of further deceit. Everyone fails from time to time, but there really are people who raise it to an art form. I'll gladly take someone who strives to do their best, but I will never accept someone who blithely wanders through life without a thought for who ends up as collateral damage via their selfish actions. I don't understand people like that. they rationalize the things that they do by saying that "nothing is ever black and white" , but then throw a fit if someone treats them the same way....maybe things are only "shades of grey" when it applies to them, I guess. I thinks it's worse when someone hurts people without realizing it or because they didn't consider it than when they realize it but they simply don't care...anyone who stands between them and what they want is likely to be steamrolled over by them all the while being told " things aren't always black and white" Link to post Share on other sites
TinaniT Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 don't feel worthy of standards and feel like they have no right to have standards so they give anyone a chance no matter the red flag. They also feel like they don't want anyone to judge them, so they hope if they accept everyone, they too will be accepted and they mask it under a veneer of being very open and empathetic, but obviously it is a dangerous and unfiltered openness to even clearly dangerous people or situations, fueled by one's issues and not any deep sense of love. People like this also find it hard to love themselves and put themselves first, so usually try to love dubious people a lot and seem self-sacrificing, because they throw themselves into "helping", "fixing" a string of people with issues and then point to their sacrificial scars as a marker for how caring they are....but they lack the most fundamental care, that of self. . I have had several people say this to me and have been working hard on this because it's not what I want my son to learn and I realize how vitally important "me" is to a good him now. So, well I haven't read the whole thread to know where this got here- but it is familiar, and I had to quote it because it bears repeating. Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I have had several people say this to me and have been working hard on this because it's not what I want my son to learn and I realize how vitally important "me" is to a good him now. So, well I haven't read the whole thread to know where this got here- but it is familiar, and I had to quote it because it bears repeating. Great for you TinaniT! Isn't that the truth. It's a hard thing to do if you for most of your life you've done the opposite....but at least you have the desire to do better esp so that your son can see that. I think that desire is the beginning to eventually making changes. Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Yes, postings would indeed drop, as well as the number of false personae created for the purpose of further deceit. Everyone fails from time to time, but there really are people who raise it to an art form. I'll gladly take someone who strives to do their best, but I will never accept someone who blithely wanders through life without a thought for who ends up as collateral damage via their selfish actions. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 no expectations at all. we have a mutually beneficial EMR. i have dated others and went NC for months at a time. and for the open marriage, we have had many discussions on that topic. MM brought up the open marriage conversation with his wife when l i got engaged last year. he flipped out and tried to get out of his marriage, never seen him do that. i told MM i couldn't be with him. the engagement ended, long story but came down to my finance not wanting kids. so went back to MM. it works for us, doesn't for others but i don't judge. i never thought i would be the OW but here i am 6 yrs later. So what happens if you get pregnant and MM demands an abortion? Isn't that the same as your "fiancé" not wanting kids? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
beenburned Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 jaloka, Your MM could get a divorce any time he wants!(nobodys stopping him) I'm sure he never ask his wife for an open marriage. He is using you and stringing you along with all his lies. Not to mention his BW! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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