believe it or not do trust her, I just am suspicious...

June 21, 2004

Dating other people is not going to help the situation. Either she wants to work things out or not. If she wants time fine, but to say she wants time to date other people is wrong. Either she has someone in mind or something else is up.

Don't let her put you on the back burner. I've seen too many stories on here that the one spouse leaves the other one hanging by going back & forth. The ending is always the same, which isn't a good one. She has to deal with these problems, not run away from them.

June 21, 2004

My doc called this morning and said it looks like she is moving toward divorce and separation is just part of the process and I should get used to the idea of it. He said there is really nothing I can do except accept it, accept the facts...

As for dating others, she does NOT want to date others, I'd be the one to precipitate that. It is just that it has been months...I'm not saying sex, I'm saying someone to talk to. After all, my doc says I have to build confidence. However, it is an idle threat as I just can't bring myself to "cheat"....as long as we're married I don't believe in it. The very thought of it makes me cringe but at the same time, I am human and I don't know if I can cope for a long, long, long time.

It has been 17 years since I've touched no less done more with another woman and it was just a thought based on what I read in that "book" about wanting to stop a divorce. It says if you date others, it will show her I have the esteem and that she'd want me back....it plays on their emotions of being jealous. I know I can't do it...I just know me so don't think it is like 50% I would....it is more like 99.99999999999% I wouldn't. One of the things I've prided myself on is being a good husband; at least I thought I was....NOBODY, I mean nobody I've talked with who is long standing friends of ours thinks we're ready to divorce...they say NOOOO, no not you guys, you are like the perfect couple. And by all appearance we are so much alike.

Carolyn called me back, she ISN'T taking new clients, isn't that just great...I probably mentioned it already. I was going to seek her to help me deal with this, now I don't have someone...there are none here in this area, just these weirdo doctors.

Over the weekend, Saturday was fine, Sunday was okay until afternoon when she took to cleaning to prepare the house for sale...it peeved our son who wanted us all to spend the day together like we did on mother's day. They got entangled in a fight over it and she ended up yelling again that she can't stand it....it was the IDENTICAL YELLING in frustration she has been doing to me, I mean identical. Today, she left a note saying she took the paper to work....perhaps to look for an apartment??? Anyway, later, she called and I felt like she wanted to say something but didn't. I just know her and that was probably what she wanted to say is that she can't take it anymore. But, I had talked with my doc this a.m. and told him about the fight they had and he told me to punish him when he does this and to show her I'm understanding of her frustration as all it will do is make her feel backed into a corner so to speak.

Jim, you've helped me more than you could ever know, thank so much...

I understand and agree we need counseling but is there a way to get her to go without asking directly which I've done? I know time, time to heal and time to herself is what she wants....I just don't understand the separation thing, what good will it do? I remember what my doc says but then again, he is out for helping ME stay focused on myself and not on fixing my marriage which is kind of a catch 22 as I'm changed, nicer, happier, etc...BUT overwhelmingly, I need to feel needed, I so much want to grab her and knee down and beg and tell her how much I love her and how much she means to me and can't we just try counseling before we break up.

I have people coming at me from different angles: Some say to not move a muscle from the house as IF for instance I left for a trip to get away, she could file for separation and I'd be locked out of my house????? What is the validity of that? Though I think she wouldn't, my parents say it could happen....and are looking out for my best interests....which is to get my money out of it, to not lose my stuff that I want, and not to be closed from my own home. My doc says she won't do that......But my parents say don't come to them for help if it happens. So I'm stuck... The other opinion is yours, you say stay in the area, take a trip to get away. My doctor says come down and he'll help me to understand that it is over and keep me from depression. He said this is just the first steps toward it being over and he'll help me to accept it. Then there is her mother who says it is okay to divorce....then there is my grandmother who said she wasn't born yesterday and the "bitch" is cheating on me. grandma says in all her years she has seen it before and don't be so nieve that just because I'm not a cheater, don't believe in it, don't think twice that she couldn't do this.

Then there is my opinion....I think she is feeling she wants to escape from her problems that she has let fester and she has blinders on that being alone will make her happy....and that we've fought off and on for so long she is over it..heck, she told our son we fought on our wedding night. That is true but it was a spat and we made up afterward in a great way. She obviously is thinking back on the bad times and not thinking of the good....I don't know the meaning of telling him that. She feels backed into a corner, that isn't good....

She won't open up to you because she I KNOW thinks we're cyber buddies; if you told her you were on her side which you seemingly are, tell her so......eventually she'll email you back. Tell her where you picked up on the text and what you've told me to do and to trust her. I DO TRUST, it has just gone too far for her to trust me now not to distrust her. How can I get it across to her that I do trust her? As for her boss, I'm over that...I just want my life back and the chance to show her. Every single fight is when I won't do what she wants.....it is all about her. If I disagree, BOOM, she is mad....

We still have not listed the house, we're still getting appraisals....she says if we get out from under the house it will be a big stress reliever. I REALLY don't want to sell the house, she really wants it sold to be separated.

I need to talk.....man I wish Carolyn wasn't so backed up.

So should I accept that we're done? Move on with my life? This is torture...I know those two questions are hard as you don't have her side of it but I'm telling you....IF you told her you know all about the problems, distrust, and have been counceling me, she might reply back. She is stubborn, strong willed into thinking someone will tell her she needs counseling, she needs this and that and to do this and that.....which I tell you right now she isn't receptive to. She would have moved out had she had the funds to do so. THAT is how frustrated she is....

Oh, my parents think because people are giving her realtors to call that she is being coached by someone at work; that is bad, bad....often as you may know someone who has gone through a divorce will give advice....it would be bad advice because they didnt' work out their own marriage so they are of the opinion like one of my friends whom I don't take advice from that people grow apart and women today think at her age "is this all there is" is this all there will be? Am I going to be like this for the rest of my life? etc....

If you email her or call her, I'm telling you this, she is a very nice girl, not a bitch.....she is confused, I'm sure scared...but thinking this is what she wants and as long as someone initially says otherwise, she'll recoil.

bob

June 22, 2004

Hi Bob,

Read your post. I will continue to email her, I just don't want her to think I would be harassing her. I don't even know if she read the two emails I sent.

What I can suggest to you though is to stop 'assuming' things. Everyone who's giving you advice from your parents to your doctors are just 'assuming' things. They don't know what she is feeling or thinking, and going by what they say is dangerous. Stop analyzing everything and just listen to her. What she says is the truth in how she feels and thinks. When two people are breaking up or have broken up, the first advice I give them is to not let friends, family, etc.. interfere. If one party needs to say something to the other then it should be done directly between them two. Forget what all of those others have to say, they are making things more complicated.

I can't predict the future, life doesn't come with an instruction book so you have to take things as they come. If your wife is getting that upset because things don't go her way, then she is putting some of this stress on herself. Her feeling of 'control' is doing this. The more control you try to have over your life the more stress that comes with it.

Please don't punish your son, thinking that would side with your wife. He's going through alot right now and for your doctor to suggest that, really makes me think where he is coming from. Your son probably feels like he's in the middle being torn apart, and possibily blaming himself some. Realize that he's facing the same terror you are. He's about to lose his mom in some ways. Things won't be the same for him. Especially at his age it can really affect him.

My suggestion would be to let her do what she feels like she needs to. You never know, in a few months she could be back wanting to truly work on things. Right now her heart isn't into it. That doesn't mean she doesn't love you, it means she's tired of the same revolving door that she's stuck in. Don't assume that things won't work out. There's a good possibility they can. Goto the web site: <URL removed> It's a good site that might give you some insight to things.

You know your wife better than anyone else. Part of her is running away from the problem, but part of her is trying to give herself time to think & feel her way through things. As for dating others if she were to move out. You have every right to find a female companion to talk with. For your wife to move away and still have reigns on you is not right. During this time you also have to do alot of thinking, on whether you want someone in your life that you feel you have to please 24/7 otherwise you face her wrath. That's too much of a burden on anybody. A relationship is 50/50.

Talk to her tonight and tell her if she feels the need to leave, then to do so. That is not showing you don't love her, but actually the opposite. She also has to be totally honest with you about everything as well.

June 22, 2004

I saw a post where someone recommended marriagebuilders....insane how my posts mimic the things others are going through, i.e., space, lack of communication, etc...However I do know this, the lack of trust that I trust her is really bothering her, I know this by her actions....then again, she is doing things like hiding receipts for clothing which includes things I might question, and has been doing those things like that example to just HIDE; whether to hide for reasons of not trusting or for "other" reasons I don't know. I do know this, I cannot communicate I trust her, with that in mind, I'd wish it could be communicated without her lashing out. One thing which just furthers the "thinking" I don't trust her is that selling the house, I need the proceedes to go to me. As I mentioned before, it is my settlement money which I need to pay for future medical and should things get nasty later on, I need to know I'd get it all not half. She agrees with that but said "what you don't trust me"....and I said no, it is my dad who said he won't help me unless I get the security of having the proceedes come to me. She was told when we decided to build the house that I was investing the money for US....and since there is no US in the picture now, I just need that back. Besides, she was the one to offer to give me back the money....trouble is, I need it in writing..make sense? Hope so... Anyway, our lives must go on and I'm actually banking too much on getting back together, not staying split. She on the other hand has communicated to me that we're doing a trial separation and that she doubts we can get back together....then again, I know this is an emotion, not a heart felt desire since she has not yet been by herself. Someone, SOMEONE is definitely coaching her at work, don't know who but when home, she is civil, when at work she'll call me and tell me things and feelings which are totally distorted. Example was she agreed not to sell then I'd go for a trip with our son to florida for a month or so......she arrived home, said in the driveway that she wanted to sell, not do that....plus people give her all these real estate agents, people are giving her places to rent that other people at her work have rented, etc.....

My father has always been controlling, he is somewhat doing so now by saying do this or else I won't be there to help and I don't want to hear I told you so if I get screwed.

I wanted to know if I took a trip, can she file for separation and lock me out of the house? Just wondering....I don't worry about that but again my father and mother fear this "could" happen and don't count on my emotions to dictate what she would do. I rather doubt seriously if that would happen; after all, I'm more of a nice guy than she is nice girl...she has taken trips to her mother's house, etc...and have seen I wouldn't do that. But, once again, the pressure on me to not leave to give her space here for a while would be nice.....

She keeps taking the paper to work....see there I go wondering why she is doing this. I wonder, is she looking, or is she just reading the paper.... I do see in the paper places close to her work that are all inclusive for $265 per month, typical college student type housing.

The fighting even with our son is pushing her out.....she flew off the handle on him and like I said in the previous post, exploded like she does on me. Yesterday, we were all "fine"....no fighting, in fact after dinner she wanted to go get ice cream at the Dairy Queen then go to the park. She is like a light switch...literally!!!

I'm trying to stop assuming things...there isn't just assuming going on, there are indications of actions and I'm too much playing psychologist. I'm venting here, not showing that I assume this and that.....I do this to both have you understand her action but also to help you to know my inner most thoughts which cannot be totally ignored...again, I'm venting....

On marriagebuilders, for like 185 they do 50 minute sessions....is that something I could do? I don't see it as helping yet but they profess to be able to help save a separation, divorce. This would come from their panel of experts. I'd rather find a face to face person but as you know here in the boonies, there isn't much if anything other than psychologists who will do nothing more than help me to cope, not come with ideas to help save it. I'm trying to be myself, I know that is one thing they'll say.....be yourself, be happy, cooperate, don't get in fights, and most of all listen and if you listen hard enough you'll find the objections she has inside. I did this naturally from being in sales....in that, people will tell you if you listen with your two ears and close your big mouth....listening helps farther than speaking.

As for emailing, I am absolutely sure she would read them...that is her....her interest is always there to read things, it is her personality and I wouldn't think she'd just see and delete....no way! That I know about her....

But when the switch would shut off is if it is to try to change her thinking about counseling, if a suggestion of doing everything I WANT.....giving her an email to give empathy goes farther....i.e., saying you understand she feels backed into a corner, etc. You must tell her that you aren't trying to wedge yourself in between as a moderator but more of a person to help ME to understand her feelings and that my perception is just that MY perception and you wanted to get her take on it....UNDERSTAND? She is stubborn....you know that but she feels right now that she is backed into a corner, has emotions she can't get over, and is optomistic about the future.

She has the little emotion magnet on the fridge and has it at HOPEFUL--last week it was HAPPY--before selling, she was on CONFIDENT-- When she had it on confident, she was bold, was outspoken telling me this and that but this was before the car accident, since then, things have spiralled more in those days than it did in recent months let alone weeks.

When the accident happened, I knew she seemed distant...as if in another world...she thought I actually did it on purpose, couple that with what her boss said that he saw me flying all over the road like a nut case spinning tires, etc....BTW, first of all, I was with the neighbor, secondly, the car has traction control and you CAN'T SPIN TIRES NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY...sheesh. Anyway, I was pissed off at him and told her so...she went off when I said it pissed me off so bad I wanted to get him back.

bob

June 24, 2004

Yesterday she called me and said EVERYONE at work is asking her why she seems so down.....She thinks that she is just tired but THEY said she looks like crap. I bet ya it is because she is placing added stress because deep down inside she doesn't want to sell the house yet she is so damn stubborn she won't back off because of her ego. What I mean by that is she has already told our son, since then, including the weekend she wasn't really happy and smiling which normally even with our relationship problems as such she smiled. I cannot imagine being so backed into a corner that you'd let your emotions be as they are and not let your ego get in the way of it.

By the way, I've backed off soooooooo much more, I realize I still was nagging...With her moving into the bedroom adjacent the master, she is all alone and I leave her alone as much as possible in so far as I'm hard pressed to even know where she is in the house let alone spend time with her except dinner.

Over the weekend, I'd thought I was sinking into depression, Monday came and I switched back from Depakote to Zyprexa and within a matter of days I'm back to feeling excellent again....I was on Depakote which is a very old drug to help with urges/clear thinking....but the side effect of it seems to be a big downer feeling....whereas with Zyprexa, the only side effect I had was weight control. The switch was only because of the complication of weight gain so I'm really, really watching what I eat and back on Zyprexa by my own doing. Don't know if you are familiar with those two drugs, anyway, FYI, the other two I take are Effexor XR an SSRI seratonin reuptake inhibitor, and xanax....It seems this combo works best for me with zyprexa....So I'm done with the trial and error as I HAD felt wonderful prior to the switch but again was changed only due to weight control.

"Typically" by the way, it is her nature to not tell me if she reads emails regarding ME.....I know this because my doctor had emailed her and she didn't tell me but he did. He said she wasn't asked questions, just given advice to deal with me months ago.....so don't think she doesn't read your email(s). She mentioned nothing about the second email nor if you did a third. You can tell her you didn't tell me that you are emailing her and that it is all in confidence. Truly, I don't wanna know what she would write you, I only want her to be happy, not have me get into her head and know what she is up to...(so to speak).

Once again, I know I've told you before and I'll say it again, you've helped me more than my doctor has about dealing with this situation, I've implimented the advice you've said and if nothing else you've helped me. Don't think just because we sank to the next level toward separation that it is done for, it will take MONTHS to sell the house, in fact I've decided "to hell with the disability" and am seeking employment full time at a place. I've yet to interview but I sent my resume and got immediate replies telling me they want me. The problem is my doctors say NO, you can't work full time, I say I MUST for my own sanity.

I'll give you a quick reason I was disabled in the first place....long ago, in '99, I was getting treatment from several doctors, surgery, etc....it came to the point I was only working 20 hours per week yet still selling more cars than anyone after going from management to sales voluntarily. The "other" salespeople bitched that I didn't work the shifts they did so it wasn't a matter of ability, it was a matter of them telling me I had to work long shifts in order to retain the job, hence, with the fact I couldn't, I was placed on disability. Now, I go once a month at the most unless I'm ill.....and since I'm no longer taking narcotics for pain, I'm dealing with them with Yoga, exercise, and stretching...and for pain, only ibuprophen 800mg twice a day. Therefore, I'm able to be completely independent of treatments, i.e., massage, adjustment chiropractic wise, TMJ therapy, etc....none of those are getting done now, even after this second accident.....I feel better than I have in a long time...

Question is, I know you seem to know me, do I sound as if I can do it?

As for disability, they still will pay up to 60% of my former full pay until an elimination period so IF I try and fail, I'll still get paid. If I can cope and work the longer hours, it will show HER I'm serious about not being "Mr. Poor Bob"....the disabled little boy who cries boo hoo.... I told you once, she likes the bad boy type cocky attitude...that was me before put out to pasture. FYI, I was literally one of the top 10% salespeople in the USA when I was in sales because I cared, because I was different in so far as I was on the consumer side...I'd felt you could always replace the car but not the customer and that philosophy kept me at the same dealership for 15 years and propelled me to General Manager in which Cathy and I used to travel on the company to VERY, VERY, VERY exclusive car shows, product launches, etc.......In fact just before being asked to step down from management as I had surgery, we'd gone to Vegas on the company for a Mazda sponsored new product launch, they kissed the asses of the wive's of managers with flowers, special things for them to do, had HUGE parties....

Those were the things she was used to as well as going to very expensive restaurants with me on weekends.......WHICH ALL ENDED when my career dove into nothingness. I'd become MAJORYLY depressed over that and sure I was still getting and still get close to 50K (NOT BRAGGING) in disability income which is 66% of my former income payable for life unless I return to work....If I work, my only concern is being able to make MORE working than not. The national average for salespeople in the industry is 35K but I'm not average but by the same token, I was in a major market BUT was selling a low volume car, Mazda.... Check out that dealership link I put, it seems like a major company and has a 500 car inventory so they must move some units.

Just thought I'd share with you our "happy times"......off and on we were happy since disability...and bythe way, all the stuff with taking pain meds, narcotics, injections of steroids(which cause anger), and the self doubt of not being a high functioning individual played into my psychosis of it all.

You see, our plan was simple....I paid for her to go to college, after college we'd live like upper middle class and have new cars, etc....but the lack of the avg 100K makes me ill just thinking about it. Not a bad income for a guy who otherwise had little more than college in business administration who could work for 20K at 7/11 or Kmart....

So what do ya think? IF I can get the disability company, social security to allow me to trial work for a period I'd know if I can do it....I KNOW I can if the ability of the pay scale allows for this, otherwise I'm going to find something. Don't you think this would show her a MAJOR, MAJOR change has come? If she is tired of the current bob, how about the bob she married? When we married, we were poor, I mean poor, poor, poor....I had a low paying job doing turf management, I found I could sell and hated doing treatments....hence I took a stab at a small car dealership and was taught what NOT to do to piss people off....I was lucky I was taught good habits, not bad. Anyway, when we were poor, poor, we had some problems but once we bought a house in '88 after 2 years of marriage and I became stable in '92 to let her school, we had the best of times....

Jim, what she is dwelling on is all the bad things I did.......she told our son that we fought on our wedding night..lol, it is a funny story but put it this way, we made up in a good way.....but nonetheless, she obviously is recanting negative things over the past, not thinking positive about the good times. I read once, get out a book of old pictures of good times....we never really took tons of pictures but I do remember some pics.

I was told by her that she remembers when I was working my ANGER issues before the accident.....Jim, that was when I worked 70 hours just like she is now....and you tend to be grumpy. Before, we used to go skiing, boating, water skiing, party, party life was one big party.

Here is my goal, to attain a high income again, to SHOW her I am worth keeping and not living life day to day dwelling on my yesteryear....and to offer her a chance if she wants to go back to college for her Master's Degree....but her current employer will pay for it so I have to think of another angle. Furthermore, I'll put the house on the market and HOPE nobody wants it. There is a very, very, very limited number of folks who could afford this house so I'm lucky in that regard.....But, if I don't work, the only "out" we'd have to reduce stress is to sell the house so our comfort level is less the 1550.00 per month mortgage.

Comments welcomed and appreciated by all.....

Am I grasping to hold on to her? Does it sound like this is all I'm after? I need to show in a big way I'm not worth leaving.....I need to show I'm thinking with good cognitive sense.....BUT frankly I fear the unknown...but I fear losing her MUCH more than I do working. Here is where my apprehension comes in, IF I did go back to work, then she'd be able to leave....so therefore there is a kickback. But then again, I'd be able to payoff debts other than mortgage without selling the house......Confused? I am......

Why would my doc say I can't work, go volunteer? I don't know, perhaps because of the attitude and constant depression type actions but deep deep inside, the depression is two fold, one is I like working, two is the poor me syndrome, three is the fact she has a career...yes, it bothers me inside that she is blossoming and I'm stagnant.

THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP

By the way, I never got a phone call back from Carolyn's office to speak with someone else....guess they think because of the drive I would'nt do it. I would.....BUT, if I went to work in Wilkes-Barre, I could go to a psychologist up there.

I don't know the "type" counselor I need, i.e., psychologist, marriage counselor(whatever they call them), or what? I seem to know what to do since you've helped me identify the problems and work on solutions and BACK THE F' OFF.....and to listen not run my mouth.

Sorry for the long post......

bob

June 24, 2004

Hi Bob,

When she called, and when she said she is tired, you should've asked her 'why' do you feel tired? It could be about all of the stress about this, but you can't assume. She may be stubborn, but when it comes to stubborness vs. reconciliation I believe the latter would always win. It's good not to nag her, she needs her space even though she is living in the house with you. Maybe you can talk to her about having the weekend to herself, if that's what she wants. That means if she says yes, not to call her or check up on her. She has alot she needs to sort out.

We had a counciling session with Carolyn last night that was very deep, my fiancee is finally letting her into her past. I can tell my fiancee was totally emotionally exhausted and we only covered part of it. The only thing with marriage councilors is that they aren't psychologists, they can't prescribed medication. She told me before that when someone approaches her for counciling, she likes to see the couple together for the first session. I know she has a big schedule. Have you brought this issue up again with your wife? Carolyn might be more inclined to see the both of you together. We just had our eigth session, and just finally now we are getting to the root of some of the problems.

What I gathered from counciling was that at first we were talking about the stuff between us, the little things that bothered us & trying to figure out how to change the way we were. That has gotten better, so now we are going and exploring the roots on 'why' this was happening. My fiancee had a rough life in the past. She was been pushing it down for years because she didn't know how to deal with them. Now she's getting insight on how to.

As for your job, if you decide to go back to work you have to make that decision for YOURSELF ONLY. Don't do it to try to win her back. Nothing you can magically do can change the way she is thinking or what she is going to do. The only thing that will help the process is to communicate better, let her know that you are there when she wants to talk. Like Carolyn told me, there are times where my fiancee will want to be just let alone and just want to think things through, while other times she'll want to talk to me. Brandy (my finacee) knows I am always there for her whenever she wants to talk. Let your wife know that you are giving her space, and the reason is not to be spiteful. Let her know that when she wants to talk you'll be there to listen.

Working 70 hours a week would provide stress on the marriage, just like she is working so many hours as well. That's the price you pay to have expensive things. Brandy's brother is the same way. His wife is into the expensive house, car, etc.. She's a nurse, works 35 hours a week, while he runs a used car dealership, 6 days a week. His salary is all on commission. Imagine the stress he's under?

Myself, I'm in the Information Technology field, and jobs around here pay nothing. Even as a Network Admin, i'm only pulling in 35k and my fiancee with a 4 year degree is only making 23k. We have a modest 1200 sq. ft. house and not alot of luxuries, and though it would be nice to have more we know what is truly important in life. Material things won't make one happy. It's about WANTING what you HAVE. Not wanting what you don't have.

Sounds like you were a guinea pig for awhile with the medication. I know that can really alter a person's mindset. Your wife needs to show some sort of compassion of what you went through. I surely hope she doesn't think the accident was your fault. No one would put their life into jeopardy like that. She needs to see reality when dealing with that issue. She also needs to deal with issues that are confrontational. How does she act when she disagrees with a co-worker? She could be taking alot of the anger & upsetment at work, out on you. That is common unfortunetly. Perhaps she feels she has taken the burden of the fiancial things now and doesn't know how to cope with it. If she wants to sell the house, it perhaps sounds like she isn't into material things. I think she realizes that money can't buy happiness. I'm worried for her in how she is dealing with all of this as well.

And it does sound like you are grasping to hold onto her, which is normal. Don't read into every word she says. Otherwise you'll be on a roller coaster of emotions, where one day is good between you too, so you get the hope she might be changing her mind, whereas the next day you have a petty argument and she gets upset and reminds you about wanting to sell the house. You can't live that way. Hope for the best, but expect the worse. You are trying, which is more than what most men would do. If this is to truly work out, she needs to sit down & say 'Bob, I really want to give this a chance and will do what we both think is necessary'. She has to do this with an open mind, that not everything is your fault but a combination of both and the mixture of some situations that has led to how are things today.

BTW, my name is Jeff

June 24, 2004

Sorry about calling you Jim, don't know how I mixed that one up, I'll say it was because of stress, ya that's it...lol.

Anyway, what I'm doing now is taking each day as it comes, trying VERY hard not to look to far into the future as it is so cloudy. You are right in so far as I want to work BUT it is to show her I'm serious about our relationship, not because I want to. Dealing with uncertainty, especially money wise is driving me on the decision.....Understand, we didn't intend on having a big mortgage, it just worked out that way because of building costs....THIS was supposed to be our dream house. before, we lived in a 2br 1 bath 980 sq foot home for 15 years and as she and I put it, that was a home, this is a house...we don't have fond memories here as there has not been tons of good times had here, especially of late. She told me she loved the house and it is stupid to stay here for materialistic reasons...and now finally she said she wanted to sell the house to get out from under the financial burden. I would work, it enables incomes of what we make combined now as a single income....but with that goes long(er) hours, stress, and weekends ....well, most Saturdays, no sundays...My life and hers are so intertwined, just sleeping in separate rooms is bad enough let alone being apart...We were inseperable, literally for years and years, best buddies but now all she does is dwell on ALL the negative aspects of ME, not the good in me. She tells me she is sleeping well but is constantly tired but doesn't know why....She is now out of her element somewhat sleeping elsewhere, we never EVER slept apart, we never have had a mounting problem like this before. Fights, well, they were usually over stupid things like which restaurant to go eat at when we'd both say I don't care.....but not, I repeat NOT over our relationship. There was once she lost weight and was acting different and I accused her of basically the same thing about 4 years ago and we did go to counseling with my doctor, he did save us....but, I don't know how much was him and how much was her venting.

You know how she ended her desire last time she was stubborn like this? She said to me, I'm changing jobs and I can't change too many things at once so I think I'll keep ya......just like that it was over. She'd remind me when I was doing badly and we'd talk about it....but not this time, it seems over time, things have not improved. When they did improve, they'd fall back worse than before everytime she got pissed. Now we come to today, she obviously wants to sell the house....but something inside is causing her grief. Once she gets her way of listing it, I hope she will do something smart, not pushy. I'm not pushing back when she pushes anymore.

Carolyn called today, she said she is still checking to get another counselor for me. I don't want another one, I've already had and have a psychologist, I need her type expertise. I told her today when it came up about insurance that I didn't care, I'll pay cash. Man I sure wish she'd see me, it sucks, boy does it suck because she sounds like such a good person and is easy to talk to, has decent advice and I'm stuck on wanting her. Oh well, that is just my luck lately, huh.

I hope I don't sound crass by my post telling you of our situation financially, it isn't like we're over our heads and live like kings....on the contrary, it is just the law suit I had for being disabled, for a brain injury settled and as I put it to my wife, I wanted to build EXACTLY her DREAM, she listed what her dream was and I had it built. Ya, I'm a softie...act bad but inside I'm not. I'm somewhat the product of my environment which was my father, he was a nasty, mean, hitting, hurting, punching, belt whipping, man....he used to hit mom, he beat us, namely me mostly and would call me a **** up if I did something wrong, would tell my two brothers who were younger to stay away from me. My problem, I was hyperactive....and the fact I was so wired made him mad. So some of my problems are that nature/nurture thing....I adopted some of his bad habits, hence my wife will tell me I'm like my father. She has adopted the stubborn attitude of my mom in law...

Wow, I'm sorry I digressed from what I wanted to say....Here it is, my wife truly was the one thing I could say was something I didn't screw up, I was faithful, trustworthy, and worshiped her....and now look at me, look at what a mess I've caused and I feel like LITERALLY---like a child being dropped off at an orphanage. If I had to put it to terms of how I felt, that is exactly it!! I want to grasp her and tell her I'm sorry for everything I've done and ask for another chance SO SO SO BAD....but she doesn't care, I just know it. It is evident, it is true...

I have really racked my brain for things for her to remember good things about, for her to remind her of when I did all that stuff for her like leave work, drive and pick up our son, bring him to work, watch him while doing management stuff, OFTEN leaving work to go home to cook dinner and return to work, often picking her up and taking her to lunch if she called in between classes and forgot to bring lunch....on and on and on I can go.....but what is the use, she can't be reminded by me of that....that Jeff is the true Bob, all b.s. aside, that is the true me. Hence the reason I want to get back into the business I loved for so many years. By the way, it is a very rewarding career if you are not some a hole car salesman....people appreciate it, I was nice and people loved me. I'm just not happy with this chapter of my life, and a great deal of it comes from my living in state....idle, unproductive, HATE housework, and heartbroken.

I'm heartbroken.....I gotta stop now, I'm beginning to cry, sorry pal...

bob

June 25, 2004

Hi Bob,

Trying reminicing about good things you two had in the past, tonight. Just bring it up casually. I really wish she would talk somehow to see what is really going on inside of her. It's hard to tell and it's basically a guessing game otherwise.

Perhaps her 'dream house' wasn't as she expected. Sometimes people get these thoughts in their heads that things are going to be a certain way if 'this & that' happens. Unfortunetly that's not always the case. Or it's not as one hoped, or hyped up to be.

Carolyn is very good, but in order to help you both, both of you should attend her sessions if she's open. I can't stress the importance & how valueable it would be to both of you. I know you want to go, but your wife has to want to go as well. Even if she goes with a closed mind, at least she would be going. I think she owes it to you & the relationship to try this. Otherwise you two will be on the same path as you are now.

In the time you do have with her, try to make it pleasant. Go out & do something fun together. Pretend she is the same woman you met 15 years ago. She is still in there somewhere underneath all that confusion & hurt. Remember to communicate with her. When she says something to you and you felt like you let her down, don't try to rationalized the disappointment you feel. Agree with what she feels. This is the healing process. Otherwise you'll be fighting it, which is counter-productive.

June 25, 2004

I'm thinking (dangerous huh)....anyway thinking of what I did yesterday. My son has been venting to me all the things I already know but still he is complaining....well, while talking about what was happening with the house, I told her she was wrong to site all the problems we've had over the years, including her sharing with him we even fought on our wedding night. I said how dare you tell him we fought on our wedding night because you cannot even remember what it was about and besides we made up....I also pointed out things he said like "what do I tell my friends, only 4 are separated, what do I tell my friend when he wants to sleep over, what am I going to do about this and that.......she said to me, OH WELL......that is tough, he'll have to deal with it. I said that isn't fair, that is very cold. I even told her what Dr. Boutin in florida said which was we need to ALL come down and sit and explain to him all this. She said WHY, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE...I said so he can understand it isn't about him and that needs to be done.....She said I'm not going to sit here and listen to you berate me. I said I'm not, I don't know what to answer him. I also said that because I don't know your feelings, I cannot express a proper answer to him. Then, I got back to the topic of selling the house....She said what did the atty say, I said well, he said all we need to do is have you sign over the house to me and you are done. She told me NASTY, well, you cannot afford the house. I said, OH YES I CAN, all I have to do is go back into the car business....She said no I can't because splitting up the bills evenly would not allow you to afford the house car and bills like propane, etc....I said well, honestly, it isn't up to you and I.....the court will look at who paid more over the years and then determine current incomes and split it fairly, that is what they do. I said that possibly, if you want divorce, they told me that I could more than likely stay in the house and you'd have to pay alimony because you left doesn't change the status of the household, you'd have to pay possibly. I said that is an outside chance because I'm wanting to work so you might not even have to worry about it. She said, OH so I'm supposed to live in a cardboard box....I said NO, I won't hurt you, I feel different about you than you do me, I couldn't let that happen.........and honestly Jeff, I couldn't. She said well it sure sounds like it....I said no, why do you think I want to work .... to prevent this. And furthermore I said that would only come into play if we divorce, otherwise, it is done mutually. I tried to be respectful, WE didn't fight...we were just talking....I told her I respect the fact she feels backed into a corner but so do I. I said you are the one who whats to be alone yet, if I don't work, I'm going to be the one alone, not you. She said, well, you said you wanted to work anyway.....I said YA, because I don't want to hurt you and have you suffer and so I'm not alone. I said you can afford a place, have bryan, have the cats and dog....whereas I on the other hand will have to be alone as I cannot afford to do this unless I work so I'm backed into a corner as well. I said besides, you told our son that I'm staying in the area......and see Jeff, the problem with that is HE wants to live with me, not her....so on top of it all, knowing darn well I cannot afford to live in a 1000 a month rental like she can, I'm backed up because I can't have him.

A note: Here on the edge of the Pocono's, if you want say 500 a month rent, it is no pets OR it is a MESSY crap hole in downtown Hazleton which by the way is now kind of dangerous, high crime, etc.....The "valley" is where regular normal average people live. I can't stick him in a double or half double in a Latino section, he'd have trouble as not necessarily him but his peers would not accept him. Don't know if you know but Hazleton has become very highly intergrated. Though we lived in florida amongst all races, up here they are territorial because OLD TIMEY Hazleton people don't like this influx and so there is a constant rift.....likewise, homes in West Hazleton, and the valley are the only place where mixed races get along. By the way, WE'RE NOT PREDJUDICE....ON THE CONTRARY. I don't care personally what color someone is, it is the kids that surround you that do care.

I can afford to BUY a house if we sellthis one, it isn't that... It is something I'm considering, perhaps building a rancher, 1200 sq feet or so...

bob

June 25, 2004

With the whole issue regarding the son, she got very defensive. Why? She might feel guilt for something. Now don't assume that she cheated or is cheating. Though her feeling guilty for something shouldn't be a reason to want to stay. Talk to her tonight and ask what is the main reason why she wants to leave so bad. What is it that is causing her to be driven away? Ask her those exact questions.

June 25, 2004

Originally posted by jmargel
Hi Bob,

Trying reminicing about good things you two had in the past, tonight. Just bring it up casually. I really wish she would talk somehow to see what is really going on inside of her. It's hard to tell and it's basically a guessing game otherwise.

Perhaps her 'dream house' wasn't as she expected. Sometimes people get these thoughts in their heads that things are going to be a certain way if 'this & that' happens. Unfortunetly that's not always the case. Or it's not as one hoped, or hyped up to be.

Carolyn is very good, but in order to help you both, both of you should attend her sessions if she's open. I can't stress the importance & how valueable it would be to both of you. I know you want to go, but your wife has to want to go as well. Even if she goes with a closed mind, at least she would be going. I think she owes it to you & the relationship to try this. Otherwise you two will be on the same path as you are now.

In the time you do have with her, try to make it pleasant. Go out & do something fun together. Pretend she is the same woman you met 15 years ago. She is still in there somewhere underneath all that confusion & hurt. Remember to communicate with her. When she says something to you and you felt like you let her down, don't try to rationalized the disappointment you feel. Agree with what she feels. This is the healing process. Otherwise you'll be fighting it, which is counter-productive.

I will.....but Carolyn has NO openings at all.......I can't even speak of trying to get her to go unless Carolyn would see us. I once was told by my doctor in florida to go over old pictures in our scrap books.....it brings back visual memories which stay in your head.

After you read my last post you'll understand more of what is going on, we need FAMILY counseling, my doc in florida even said so....My doc in florida said WE need to explain things to our son.....he is concerned about him. As am I ....I feel she is neglecting his feelings as well as mine. There is SOMETHING she doesn't want to address....I don't know what is in her head, I just don't know.

I was cleaning this a.m. and was in the bathroom, it is that time of the month and by evidence of it loaded full, I assume it was all week. THAT must be why she is acting really odd...All week and a couple days prior, she was acting oddly, lashing out at coworkers, and explains why she flew off the handle. All years prior, she was mean during this "period"....no punn intended. But now she is much worse....family on both sides say she may be going through the 'change'....

So anyway, I have an interview at 3:30 for a job, I'm doing this for self preservation......besides, for years I've dreamed about getting back.

By the way, on a side note, I build computers, high end graphics and sold some to a company that does weather over your way. I'm also almost up to MCSE....yepper, Cisco...as I wanted to be an independent contractor which I understand makes huge bucks. LOL, not in Pa... It is funny, of the things you've told me about yourself, we have very similar ideals and hobbies. I was an AMD distributor too, I would buy lots of 1000 and sell them when I lived in florida on an e-commerce business site we had. I also used to buy URL's...but that was back in the day before the internet was popular. I only sold two names in the .com.......I tried and failed at many other sites...mainly because I didn't get the REAL potential back then of names like http://www.coke.com or the like....I was making up weird names not fully understanding how the explosion was taking place .... I'd gone to a seminar but it was not sunk into my brain just how much there was to make. Oh well, just a tid bit of history..... My son wants to be in the IT field, thinking of computer degree at PSU.....IMO, a very good idea, he contemplated ITT tech but I don't know....do you?

I took e courses from Smart Certify when we lived in Florida as it was based in Clearwater, only 10 miles away...and have not done any more Cisco since they almost folded in bankruptcy. My self taught online freebee courses in MicroSHAFT were good, I still do beta testing like I'm doing Direct X 9C right now, and no it isn't very good now....and doing WIFI beta for 802.11G's next level. Lots of encription....but Microsoft now is forum based for beta and I don't find it as useful as it used to be.

bob

June 25, 2004

Originally posted by jmargel
With the whole issue regarding the son, she got very defensive. Why? She might feel guilt for something. Now don't assume that she cheated or is cheating. Though her feeling guilty for something shouldn't be a reason to want to stay. Talk to her tonight and ask what is the main reason why she wants to leave so bad. What is it that is causing her to be driven away? Ask her those exact questions.

Here was her reply....She says because she can't take it anymore, because this has not been months of unhappiness, it has been years....then said no it hasn't been all bad but not all good either....and she said she should have left years ago. What is driving her is exactly this, she has not felt happy with the marriage, has not felt comfortable and can sight many things over the years to make her this way. She is like a BOOK when it comes to telling each and every bad thing I've done in 17 years. She can throw up times when we had an arguement from YEARS AND YEARS ago....which she has done over the course of years but it seems now she is at a "I'm over it"....type feeling. A feeling she can't go on, no hope, and wants to try it out on her own. I said to her that I thought she felt like at this point in her life being close to middle age....."is this all there is to life, is this all there will be, will I have to feel this way forever"....and she said nothing.

I can't get to speak of the good times.....I LOST being able to remember chunks of my life since the accident. I have some brain damage, the brain matter is like a sponge. It caused a personality change... If you've ever read about people who got Mad Cow, their brain slowly deteriorates to ALL sponge, they have a personality change BUT in their case, they continue to degrade where as I don't ..... I can remember stupid stuff like conversations, numbers, things I've done BUT forget things like movies, if I watch a movie for example, two days later I can't look at the cover and remember if I've seen it unless I put in the DVD and watch a clip then I remember it all. She doesn't want to live like that, I can't change the fact I have problems dealing with rationalization....EVERYONE I know says she is a nurse and should know this and understand....for better, for worse, in sickness, in health.....but she says she cannot live like this anymore. When pressed lightly, she'll say....OK, FINE, I'LL LIVE UNHAPPY, WE'LL STAY TOGETHER AND I'LL BE MISERABLE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.......BUT YOU'LL BE HAPPY SO SCREW IT. I try and try and try to explain it isn't that, it was a change in me I have no control over and she says....so again, I'm supposed to live unhappy forever because of this?

Most men would say screw it.....leave, give up....etc....I've known her for all these years and it just never got to this point before, before, she'd find a way to forgive, to go on.....and we'd be perfect for years, literally! Like the last time she was unhappy was 4 years ago, YA, it was that long ago....afterward, she says now here we are again and this time I don't wanna go on .... I'm over it.... Before, she said this, said she wasn't IN LOVE WITH ME....then, one day, she decided to change jobs (her excuse), and we made love, and she later said she has fallen in love with me all over again.

Arggggggggg, anyway, it is going to have to be something substantial to change in order for her to take me back...THAT is why I have not lost hope, that is why I want to do something major like take a good paying job, it will then give her space HERE as I'll work until 8pm some days. See, the way I see it, with her stubborn attitude, she can't just STOP and continue with marriage, something has to give her a reason......this best explains why I want to work. Look, I'll be not here quite a bit whereas now, we're all here when she gets home so she has very little ME time.

This a.m.......I called her and told her I was wrong for unloading in conversation what our son is telling me, my angst, and all I put in that post. The appology was for doing that, and I said I was wrong for that but our son is on my a$$ 24 hours a day asking questions and I said I'm trying to adopt the same feeling of love you have for me but I can't get over you like youi are of me and I can't just turn it off like you can.....I said you are right, I understand you feel backed into a corner and I won't do that again. Then I said that WE need to talk to our son together....

She happily changed her tune then and was very nice......but when I first called she was COLD, quiet......etc.

She wouldn't do counseling because it isn't her idea.....she feels that someone will try to change her mind, and that she doesn't want to change her mind again because in the past she has and look at us now!

Oh well....such is life.

bob

June 25, 2004

Counciling isn't about changing your mind. It's about what is the true problem and how to get over it. If that means splitting up, then sometimes that happens. She should have compassion on your accident & how it's changed you. People with alzheimer's, such as Reagan. He became a totally different person who didn't even know his wife of 50 years anymore. She stayed by his side. No marriage is going to be happy 24/7. That's impossible, even if the other person 'lives' to make the other happy.

As for her just being there I know that doesn't make you happy. You want your old wife back. For her to say she's been unhappy for 'years', it could be that she's been unhappy in life for 'years'. She needs to becareful that it isn't just you. Living alone in itself won't make her happy, unfortunetly she may have to go through that to realize it.

When you talk to her, such things about your son & stuff in general try not to say things such as 'I think we should do this..', rephrase it so it's less demanding. To such things as 'Maybe we might want to talk to our son together about this'. This gives her the option then to decide. As the way you were putting things before you were making the decision and felt threatening to her. That you were going to lay blame on her in front of your son.

Little things like that make a huge difference. I didn't know that myself until reading quite a bit. It still sounds like she needs space. Time to miss you. If you can, try to go back to work and see how it works out. Between her work & home, the only time she has to herself is the drive home. Alot of women like private time, my fiancee even though we are truly in love, every once in a great while likes to sleep in the bed alone. Personally I don't truly understand it, but women are different. I guess they take comfort sometimes being by themselves.

I can see both of you are frustrated, and need to be a little easier on each other. Try doing something with her that she wants to do. Even if it's just shopping and you may not like doing that. It's something most women would appreciate.

June 25, 2004

Bob,

I've been keeping up with your situation but haven't posted much. The doctor you talk about all the time, is his field medicine or psychiatrics? Because I'm wondering if you've ever been diagnosed with being Co-Dependent? You can do a search on the condition to learn more about it but a psychologist or psychiatrist are the only one's that can give you a proper diagnosis.

If you are Co-Dependent, it most certainly could have been brought on from the accident. You went from being independent and in control of all aspects of your life, to being out of control.

However, I think before the accident and after, you have always been a controlling person. The way you describe things even though you don't mean it or aren't aware of it, you have controlled every aspect of your environment. You saw it as being there for your son and wife but perhaps your wife didn't feel she had a choice.

When you had the accident and lost control of things, your wife being independent of you, had a successful career and had to/was able to make the decisions around the household. Especially when you were at your worse physically from the wreck.

The tables turned and you couldn't control any aspect of your life and between that and the morphine, you became suspicious of what you couldn't control plus you apparently let outside influences cloud your judgment. I understand the dependence on the doctor you refer to except the man doesn't live with you and your family so he can only give you so much dead on advice. I don't understand your listening to your parent's and grandparent's? This may sound mean but "how old are you?" I mean when you get married, it should be about you and your wife. You have no business getting your ideas or allowing them to say such things about your wife. You and your wife belong to each other, you don't belong to your parent's. Bob, your Daddy beat you and your Mama, your parent's have had a dysfunctional marriage, why in the world would you get their advice??

You can't imagine what suffocation and anxiety your wife has felt dealing with your insecurities, your suspicions, jealousies and then your listening to outsiders instead of her. You seem to have spent a good part of your time (at least since the accident) obsessing on what her every thought and move has been or going to be. That is abuse within itself. As much as she loves you, she probably wants to just breathe without it being questioned or analyzed. She may come across cold but more than likely she's just numb. She's tired of all the drama she's having to deal with so she just doesn't want to discuss it anymore or she just doesn't have an answer for you anymore.

You can't make her want to stay or control how she is handling this. You nor she is 100 percent of the blame. However, you need to clear your head and figure out what part of the blame lies with you, instead of thinking there's going to be a quick fix you need to just get through one day at a time. Get control of yourself and stop trying to control her feelings and thoughts. Just giving her some room to breathe without analyzing why she needs it would be such a good start. Stop making her feel guilty for being unhappy. Let her handle things as she sees fit and don't put down or question what she does. If you want to be remotely attractive to her, stop badgering and whining about everything and just take care of yourself. Getting a job will allow you to get a life and give you something to focus on rather than focusing on her all the time. Then she will have the breathing room (without being backed into a corner) to see what she can do to change.

As a woman I will say, it infuriates me that men assume we are only angry and emotional when we are PMsing, on our period or going through menopause. We can actually get angry, aggravated or hurt when not one hormone is involved....Give her the benefit of being a person that is frustrated and has had enough. If she feels back into a corner, she is probably angry at the world!!

If you can't see the counselor that you want to see.....or if she doesn't want to go. Then do some site searches, buy some books, there are alot of other resources out there. If she wants to get counseling, then she can decide for herself.

I can tell you truly love her, want her to be happy and want this marriage to work. Maybe when she feels less pressure, she can sit back and realize it and remember the good times!

I'm praying for y'all!! I would love a happy ending!

June 25, 2004

Originally posted by jmargel
Counciling isn't about changing your mind. It's about what is the true problem and how to get over it. If that means splitting up, then sometimes that happens. She should have compassion on your accident & how it's changed you. People with alzheimer's, such as Reagan. He became a totally different person who didn't even know his wife of 50 years anymore. She stayed by his side. No marriage is going to be happy 24/7. That's impossible, even if the other person 'lives' to make the other happy.

As for her just being there I know that doesn't make you happy. You want your old wife back. For her to say she's been unhappy for 'years', it could be that she's been unhappy in life for 'years'. She needs to becareful that it isn't just you. Living alone in itself won't make her happy, unfortunetly she may have to go through that to realize it.

When you talk to her, such things about your son & stuff in general try not to say things such as 'I think we should do this..', rephrase it so it's less demanding. To such things as 'Maybe we might want to talk to our son together about this'. This gives her the option then to decide. As the way you were putting things before you were making the decision and felt threatening to her. That you were going to lay blame on her in front of your son.

Little things like that make a huge difference. I didn't know that myself until reading quite a bit. It still sounds like she needs space. Time to miss you. If you can, try to go back to work and see how it works out. Between her work & home, the only time she has to herself is the drive home. Alot of women like private time, my fiancee even though we are truly in love, every once in a great while likes to sleep in the bed alone. Personally I don't truly understand it, but women are different. I guess they take comfort sometimes being by themselves.

I can see both of you are frustrated, and need to be a little easier on each other. Try doing something with her that she wants to do. Even if it's just shopping and you may not like doing that. It's something most women would appreciate.

I can't seem to get the idea of counseling out of my head that she will see the light.....HARD, HARD....But I know from talking with my doctor that before it worked. She had a way to get me into trouble when I obsessed.....what she would do is drop a dime on me to my doc who would YELL AND YELL at me. He is a really good doctor, it gets through the thick membrane of my skull.....I'd hoped when I went away the last time, he would do just that. I know having a doctor 1/2 a continent apart is part of the problem; BUT, remember this, I've had tons of doctors up here, none have helped me like he has. Even though our sessions once per week are like 15 min, believe me, it helps....however, I need a good ole' doctor like I had in florida UP HERE, not one like the one's I've had. One doc I went to was in a run down old piece of junk office, he was like an antique himself, very antiquated in thinking...and all he did was give me these stupid papers to read that had poems and crap. Another was hindu, he changed my meds and was FIRED by me and my insurance company as he screwed up my meds. Another was Korean, she yelled at me because I was coming off being addicted to morphine....she didn't listen to me saying I needed counseling, not med changes......that my scattered thinking was because of the morphine. So what did she do? She took me off this med called effexor which YOU CAN'T JUST STOP BECAUSE IT HAS WITHDRAWAL.....so what is that??? Couple two problems, now I'm not only coming off morphine but have a script that is totally different than before!!! Wow, nice huh....Really good doctoring... Oh and she made the next appointment not the following week but the following month!!!!!! So you see, after all that, I reached out to my doc in florida who told me to jump on a plane and come see him....I did and he helped me. He saw me daily, I can't explain how he turned me around...sure, he yelled, said I screwed up big time, and I'd have to suffer with the withdrawal.....

Now....look at me, I have a doc in florida to talk with once a month, I'm reading as much as I possibly can BUT kind of obsessing on my relationship. I've kind of stopped working on myself....I've GOT to have a counselor, one that is good, one that can dig through my mess with me.

Can I ask a dumb question? I'll ask anyway, are all the doctor's offices here like really junky? The one's I've had here all are nasty, my doc in florida has a leather office, all real nice clean quiet, and he plays music like pink floyd music REALLY low....and it is relaxing. But here, the docs had like plastic model airplanes, paper pictures in old frames, and junk like that and you sat in a plastic chair like when I was in high school.......and his desk was a friggen mess, paper scattered all over, just JUNK all over.

As for the rest of your post, you are right on as usual.....

I'm thinking work would show two things, one is my desire to succeed again, secondly give her space.....sure perhaps she needs to be alone.

I am wanting to do something to say I'm sorry for yesterday, was thinking of buying a rose and putting it on her bed......just wanting to say without saying again I'm sorry, to validate, to just be nice.

bob

June 25, 2004

Originally posted by VivianLee
Bob,
I've been keeping up with your situation but haven't posted much. The doctor you talk about all the time, is his field medicine or psychiatrics? Because I'm wondering if you've ever been diagnosed with being Co-Dependent? You can do a search on the condition to learn more about it but a psychologist or psychiatrist are the only one's that can give you a proper diagnosis.

If you are Co-Dependent, it most certainly could have been brought on from the accident. You went from being independent and in control of all aspects of your life, to being out of control.

However, I think before the accident and after, you have always been a controlling person. The way you describe things even though you don't mean it or aren't aware of it, you have controlled every aspect of your environment. You saw it as being there for your son and wife but perhaps your wife didn't feel she had a choice.

When you had the accident and lost control of things, your wife being independent of you, had a successful career and had to/was able to make the decisions around the household. Especially when you were at your worse physically from the wreck.

The tables turned and you couldn't control any aspect of your life and between that and the morphine, you became suspicious of what you couldn't control plus you apparently let outside influences cloud your judgment. I understand the dependence on the doctor you refer to except the man doesn't live with you and your family so he can only give you so much dead on advice. I don't understand your listening to your parent's and grandparent's? This may sound mean but "how old are you?" I mean when you get married, it should be about you and your wife. You have no business getting your ideas or allowing them to say such things about your wife. You and your wife belong to each other, you don't belong to your parent's. Bob, your Daddy beat you and your Mama, your parent's have had a dysfunctional marriage, why in the world would you get their advice??

You can't imagine what suffocation and anxiety your wife has felt dealing with your insecurities, your suspicions, jealousies and then your listening to outsiders instead of her. You seem to have spent a good part of your time (at least since the accident) obsessing on what her every thought and move has been or going to be. That is abuse within itself. As much as she loves you, she probably wants to just breathe without it being questioned or analyzed. She may come across cold but more than likely she's just numb. She's tired of all the drama she's having to deal with so she just doesn't want to discuss it anymore or she just doesn't have an answer for you anymore.

You can't make her want to stay or control how she is handling this. You nor she is 100 percent of the blame. However, you need to clear your head and figure out what part of the blame lies with you, instead of thinking there's going to be a quick fix you need to just get through one day at a time. Get control of yourself and stop trying to control her feelings and thoughts. Just giving her some room to breathe without analyzing why she needs it would be such a good start. Stop making her feel guilty for being unhappy. Let her handle things as she sees fit and don't put down or question what she does. If you want to be remotely attractive to her, stop badgering and whining about everything and just take care of yourself. Getting a job will allow you to get a life and give you something to focus on rather than focusing on her all the time. Then she will have the breathing room (without being backed into a corner) to see what she can do to change.

As a woman I will say, it infuriates me that men assume we are only angry and emotional when we are PMsing, on our period or going through menopause. We can actually get angry, aggravated or hurt when not one hormone is involved....Give her the benefit of being a person that is frustrated and has had enough. If she feels back into a corner, she is probably angry at the world!!

If you can't see the counselor that you want to see.....or if she doesn't want to go. Then do some site searches, buy some books, there are alot of other resources out there. If she wants to get counseling, then she can decide for herself.

I can tell you truly love her, want her to be happy and want this marriage to work. Maybe when she feels less pressure, she can sit back and realize it and remember the good times!

I'm praying for y'all!! I would love a happy ending!

I'm sure I've become co-dependent.....My doctor is a Psychologist, the best I've ever encountered but then again, I've not had a professional here either..... His job is to work on ME, not her.....He says don't worry about her, you can't change her, just focus on myself, being a better person and STOP agonizing....

As for myparents, well, hell I don't have anyone to talk to about my problems, initially, they helped me by way of only my mom whom I leaned on when I was coming off morphine. We talked for hours..... And you see, we never stopped talking. As for my father, I get "info" from my mother who talks to him..... I'm 39 and I know they aren't helping my situation....BUT, they are looking out for my interests such as if we divorce, etc. My mom is a great, great person.....My dad an a hole....but smart. I have to say I agree they are unique in so far as HE cheated on HER and they worked things out, they're as dysfunctional as they come. My father is Mr. Money......money, money, is really, really wealthy beyond the comprehension of most. Even I wonder sometimes..... I might add, my brother committed suicide from a drug overdose, my other brother lives in Thailand, far away from them on purpose. That is just the tip of the iceberg.....anyway, there ya go.

Why do I communicate this stuff to my mom....because she wants us to work things out but also wants to help me.....I just have nobody to talk to. Talking often takes the stress away..... My relationship with my mom is VERY, VERY good......with dad, it is off and on, more off than on.....and he does care, if we divorce he wants me to come work for him in his store. I couldn't even contemplate that but IF I don't do something, I'll be forced to live with them...

It is a tough position, she wants to be separated.....however, as I stated before, I WILL be the one alone, not her....so selling the house is in order, once that takes place, I'm then homeless....LITERALLY. I can't pay 1/2 the bills, my car payment, and live even in a decent apartment....unless she helped. She wants to split the bills evenly....and with that, I'm screwed like really bad. I can't have my son....nothing. I think of our stuff and because she is working and I"m not, she can afford to rent a nice place which I can't. Therefore, IF I'm to live somewhere it has to be alone.....BUT, here this, my son doesn't wanna live with mom, he wants to live with ME, so this complicates things further because I can't afford to live up here by myself with our son.....BUT, he wants to graduate from high school next year from this school.... Just look at that mess and understand why I have to keep in contact with my mom on this.....besides, her mother tells her it is okay to separate if that makes her happy....she has listened to her mom's advice. By the way, her mother has had 5 children, 4 boys, and my wife.....of them, one has kept the same marriage, the other three boys have divorced and remarried like literally 5 times each!!!

None found happiness with remarrying......not one, in fact one is going through another divorce/separation and living with her right now. So even though she says she doesn't believe in divorce, she was married 50 years and stayed with her hubby through cancer and death, she still tellls my wife it is okay to do this IF it will make her happy.

You are right about how the tables turned....I couldn't have said it better myself. Would you not mind posting more? I just don't know how to deal with all this.... I won't go so far into detail anymore with my mom.....I'll stop as of now. Jeff said the same thing...

I want MY LIFE BACK, I have a problem with that also which is if I work, I lose disability and I'm afraid to try somewhat because if I fail, it will be just another poor decision. The car business is so so so up and down.....not to mention I don't have my old customer base which I had before. I don't have anything but the desire to change more than I have already.......

You know that she moved out of the bedroom, it f%ucked me up....I can't sleep, can't eat, and feel like crap. My wife has been always the solid pillar for me since being disabled.

I know for a fact.....FOR A FACT she wasn't thinking of divorce before Jan '04 because we bought ME a new car in November....she cosigned as with all our debts....and at Xmas when her mom was in, she said it was the best Xmas she has ever had. I have pictures of Xmas, her smiling, etc...... In Jan when I said "why don't you take rubbers" got her pissed....then when she got lost in San Francisco, she called ME from her cell phone to have me navigate her......and we got into it when I had a panic attack thinking she would be hurt by a thug because she was crying saying she was in a nasty part of town. It was then that I said IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO YOU, I'LL BEAT YOUR BOSSES ASS ....... I said that in panic..... reason is simple, he MADE HER fly into San Francisco and drive 3 hours toward Sacramento when for $200 more she could have flown into Sacramento but no, a**h*** made her fly into San Francisco. Upon her return, she used this thing as an excuse not to tell me she was going to go on a trip with him to Maryland.....she says I already threatened him before and she withheld telling me because of that.

I saw in her planner that it was HER idea to share a ride to this seminar.... I also know she has said she thinks he is really good looking.

She may have a crush on another man who is married.....whatever the hell it is, I don't know. You may recall, he does things to piss me off like the day of the accident, she ran to his office to tell him she had to leave to come to the hospital when I was in the accident earlier this month. HE TOLD HER A LIE, HE SAID HE SAW A CAR JUST LIKE OURS spinning tires just days before and she concluded he was right because it was memorial weekend and she drove the xterra that day to work, and I had the car. Truth be told again, I did go out, I was with my neighbor, we went to friggen Staples, and he is like so so so laid back, besides, I DIDN'T DO THAT.....but in her mind it just added to her thinking I was acting oddly again. And you know what, she has been far, far, far, far worse on me since the accident. And she listened to her mom telling her that I'd said I would end my life in a car.....so she put two and two together and actually thought I did the accident on purpose to try to kill myself. Truth is, I was talking to her mom and said I was too chicken to end my life......see, when I was on morphine, I was thinking of suicide because of the guilt I had towards what I'd done by accusing her of cheating. I actually left the night I did the accusation on the phone to my wife and drove into the woods and fell asleep in my truck.......in actuality I was thinking of suicide but was screwed up on medication, but wanted to escape from what I'd done, not kill myself in that episode. That was how messed up I was!!!! I was overmedicated, was on patches that were defective, were on drugs that leaked morphine so I was getting double doses AND on a med change which I was also DEEP into a fog because I was off my effexor which you can't just stop.

See......I'm really messed up......and now, everything is clear, everything is hopeful, and I'm trying to piece together my life again bit by bit....

I cannot go back into the past yet it haunts me....

I bet you can see now why I told my mom about the entire incident... and she has been trying to help me to get back to living life without thinking her son will kill himself. I am in no way shape or form thinking of killing myself.....

I don't think irrationally, and I'm clearer than I have been in all the years since Dec 1997 when we were involved in a major accident.

By the way, what happened was we were on vacation, I had NEVER seen a psychiatrist, psychologist, nothing, never needed one, life was good, we had been skiing and were on the way home. Traffic was extra heavy as it was the holidays......and we came over a hill, I saw traffic stopped and stopping abruptly and piling up accident after accident. Knowing how to drive really well, I was keeping good space between me and the car in front so I was almost stopped.....behind me, I saw this RV, a 76 FULL size old one towing a taurus wagon, I swerved into the median and then began to stop once more.....HE followed us and hit us at estimated speed in excess of 40mph which exploded the rear end of our Mazda 626. My son was injured with neck injuries, my wife was unharmed and I got my jaw locked by the impact as I clinched my teeth and tightened up when I knew he was about to hit us. So think of it this way, he was stopped by our car's brakes since I was stomping on the brakes trying to stop myself and he hit us. There was $15,000 damage to our car and he had one of those bumpers like semi trucks have and it only put a dent in it but bent it all back on the other side and ripped the cab of his RV to where it was all twisted. Incidently, RV's are made of wood with aluminum, all the wood inside crumbled in his rv and it was ll from the force of impact.

I got a settlement of $130,000 and I had $80K in surgeries......I was diagnosed as having a personality change. I had been the manager of two dealerships, my wife wanted for nothing...I mean nothing, we went out to expensive restaurants, we flew all over the country on the company to various new product launches where you stay in the best of the best places, and I was so successful. ALL or most of our problems were behind us. Or so I thought....

We had a rocky start in marriage, I had just gotten out of the military, I was making 15K a year in '86-'87 and got into the car business as it was one way to make money....and in the years up to say '92 when my wife almost DIED from an illness, I stayed with her, stopped working, lived on savings, and had to file bankruptcy. From '93 to '97 we were GREAT.....I became more aware of life, she had everything she wanted....including after the loss of a fetus and her illness in '92 she wanted to go to college and I supported her, sure she had student loans but I paid for everything else. She graduated after all this...got a job at a hospital, I was progressing through the ranks and making more and more.....then came the accident. Then came the first accusation while on medication of cheating....which we got over, then came HER being unhappy. We got over it.... By the way, she used to be SUPER SUPER SUPER SUPER jealous of me, she would accuse me of looking at girls asses, accused me of cheating, accused me of flerting which I didn't. In one instance there was a receiptionist who was HOT on me.....I told my wife about it and told the girl to stop---by the way, she was a 20 year old blonde and beautiful....I wanted my wife to know because I didn't want this girl to say something to my wife. The reason was because the girl would answer phones and was so hot after me that she'd say to my wife that I was out when I was in, would say I'm at lunch with some girl, stuff like that. Anyway, this girl would really not let up, would say come on just once....do me.....arggg, we'd been married 8 years at that point and I loved my wife. Once even the girl grabbed my crotch which I told my wife about....once the girl pulled up her dress and showed her goods....stuff like that. Anyway, even after telling her about it, I was talking with my wife in the back of the dealership a couple years later and another receiptionist who was "liking" me came running out saying "Bobby, you have a phone call".....My wife said .... GO AHEAD "BOBBY"....go get your phone call. I said stop, I don't know why she called me Bobby......my wife said ya sure and spun tires away.....then another time, I got a HUGE arrangement of flowers and a plant from a customer, two elderly people I helped.....they also had brought me cookies, anyway, MY wife thought it was from some girl and wouldn't let it go.....

So I after the accident adopted HER thinking and as they say when you are married so long, you take on each other's traits.....so I did! I was insecure so I've accused her TWICE in our lifetime together....BUT I would have never not told her I had to take a trip with my boss if she were female....heck, I would have tried to get her to go so she wouldn't be suspicious.

I have to say since I'm airing my laundry here today.....when she took her trip and didn't tell me, I was suspicious probably because of the meds but she was secretly putting in her planner after I falsely said take some rubbers to california.....REASON I said that was because she had told me about this good looking boss, everytime I'd call her work she wasn't at her desk, often he'd hang out in her department, often he'd be playing nurf basketball with her and she'd stay at work until 8pm....shall I expound more? Well, I will, anyway, she also would be missing from work...went to lunch with him...and a part time nurse had told me she was in the hall with him and she was supposed to be at home. Ya, she was at work, she said when I asked that he was confiding in her.....asking her opinion as he was having troubles at home. She said he was her mentor....that he was teaching her the ropes of her new management job. One time, she went into work...on a day off because HE was working and she had a fight with him and she wore VERY tight jeans, was in his office because this same part time nurse said "they have been locked in there for hours".....and I said is that so huh....and she said, yep, I don't know about those two. I said what do you mean by that...."she indicated without saying it that they liked each other".....

Then, on her trip to california, she was supposed to go with me.....WE WERE TO REMARRY......that was the plan as we married quickly and all of a sudden wanted to go alone to california. I couldn't understand why, I thought the worst then......and by the way, HE was gone that week also. Then in her planner she put notes to see if he wanted to share a ride....BUT at the time, I didn't know this note stuff was going on because I was just suspicious not anymore. Two weeks before the trip to maryland that involved the boss, she worked LONG LONG HOURS, had all of a sudden started wearing T back undies which she never wore, all of a sudden was losing TONS of weight....and was on Victoria Secret's site then the evening before her trip, she got red faced when I asked if she were going alone.....she lied......only later to recant back on what I said about telling me that I said I'd beat his ass if I found out she got in an accident .... bla bla bla....anyway, the night before, I was worried because a huge snow storm was coming.....she kept saying don't worry about it. I said do you have a map....she said no so at 11pm, I went to walmart in a snowstorm to get her a map. AND SHE LET ME....instead of saying no I don't need one, she let me go....and I checked her luggage. Now this is FEB.... in it was two pair of IDENTICAL t back undies, a pair of TALL, TALL white laced high heel shoes like what you wear with lacy undies and sexy bra for SHOW....not the kind you wear in WINTER....Upon return, the suitcase only had one pair of dirty undies as I unpacked her to do the wash.....one pair was missing and never returned for a week, then when it did, it magically showed up in the hamper... the following weeks, she was mad at me....I MEAN MAD because she says I embarrassed her because I called her boss's wife....who by the way didn't know they were riding together.....

So to this day, did something happen OR was this all a hallucination???? It seems so surreal and real.......

Since then, I'd contemplated IF something did happen, or didn't it.....and if it did happen, is she thinking that since she cheated, I PUSHED her to cheat so she was so over it and that cheating symbolized that she can't live with me and is putting it all on me to rationalize. If she didn't, then she is so so so so hurt...

So there, all laundry is aired...sorry for the long post.

Our son by the way came to me out of the blue and said during that time that she seems to be distancing herself from us like work is now more important than us.

PLEASE don't say she cheated....I have no proof. As for the missing undies, perhaps she wore them the next day to work and I missed them as she wore them home??? See there is no proof....NONE....hence the initial post I put.....I trust her, I'm just suspicious...

I've eliminated the thought of whether or not she cheated as I cannot change it....But I can't take back what I said....and I got off morphine....so now everything is about trying to fix the broken links....problem is, there are just so many broken links and not enough links in the chain to solder them all.

bob

June 25, 2004

Remember I spoke of the duragesic (morphine) patches.....an atty just called me, they want to sue the manufacturer. He checked out the evidence I gave him and indeed it was said that I was one involved...duh, I knew that. Anyway, just thought I'd share with you that I was THAT messed up. Included in my diagnosis was that I hallucinated.....my doctor notes stated that.

bob

June 25, 2004

Bob,

Even though it might be suspecious, you don't have proof. Both of you acted that way towards each other so the accusing you did shouldn't be enough to set her off. I still believe something else is going on. I don't know what it is, but you need to talk to her.

I would consider the stuff she wore on that business trip to be inappropriate, but so was the snooping you did. Either way, that's in the past. Both need to realize that. If she didn't cheat she has no reason to hide anything. Try to follow my adivce what I posted before and hope for the best.

Actually what might be best is for both of you to write down (in private) on what is bothering you about the relationship, then exchange. Go through each item & discuss it. Try and do that tonight or this weekend. By writing things down (as you have) you find out better what is bothering you.

June 25, 2004

I've got a job interview up in Wilkes-Barre....I'll try to do that.

If you have questions you think I should ask since you've known of my plight, please do so. Perhaps your asking what you emailed her would get you more familiar with what she thinks!

I'm afraid to ask some burning questions like did she cheat....I too took it as inappropriate, HENCE the reason I went the F off... but like you said that was in the past. I'm telling you though, she was beet read when I asked if she were going alone to MD that night before. Perhaps SHE wanted to get me back for accusing or inferring she take rubbers, that too is VERY inappropriate and so was my actions. All the while in the company van on the way to maryland I called and called and would ask if she were alone and she would say YES, and I'd push saying I know you are with him and I'm coming down to Maryland ...

She never would tell me.....She arrived with HIM at 3:30 and said she was going to take a nap. Jeff, I called the room and there was no answer...cell was off....I WENT BONKERS.....I "almost" went down, I called my doc and he'd told me to double up on the dose of my meds and it only FURTHER enhanced my rage. I ended up calling the hotel and asking what rooms they were in and they were adjoining rooms, both KING beds, and they were asked by me to call his room and the lady at the desk said; I didn't tell you this but I could hear her talking and asking if that were her husband. Then she said she could hear her laughing..

Man, talk about PISSED. It was then that I drove myself into a deep sleep...woke up after she'd called to say good night at 9pm and I awoke t w o hours later and was enraged again. I was out of control according to my son....I left in the car leavinghim at home and drove to a secluded place to think....I woke up in the truck at 3 a.m......and started calling her room as soon as I got home. There was NO ANSWER in the room. I phoned and phoned and phoned like 15 times over and over then called the front desk around 5 am and told the person this was an emergency and could someone knock on the door. They did and no answer.....

Then, I was told there was nobody answering the door either. I then called the room again and low and behold she answered....This was as if she'd heard the knocking on the door and went into her room, it was NOT like she just woke up.

FYI also, in 17 years, you know if yoiur wife is a hard sleeper which she isn't....NEVER EVER EVER EVER the tv will wake her, the cat meow will wake her, if I turn on the light in the bathroom literally 40 feet away and pee, it wakes her....if I don't turn on the light and walk in LATE from say falling asleep at the computer or on the couch, if I do anything that makes the slightest noise it wakes her, even if I open a window quietly it wakes her.

Sorry Jeff, things aren't cloudy anymore....those are burning questions....

HOWEVER, I want to forget as I don't have proof, only that I was suspicious of suspicious activity.

So instead of me asking questions, how about you tell me some to ask?

PLEASE...pretty please?

Well wish me luck...oh and by the way, it doesn't piss me off anymore about the incident.....IF I did drive her to cheat, I paved the road and all she did was drive on it. But think of this, say someone inferrs something and yoiu did nothing to deserve it......and yoiu wanted vengence, isn't this plausable! So I cannot regard this as something she did 110% for no reason BUT, perhaps in her mind things got so bad that she resorted to cheating and feels bad but doesn't wanna go to therapy because she can't look someone in the eye and say it is all me. Perhaps she used my addiction and hallucination as just that, blaming me for what I did and telling me I was crazed....and on top of that, SHE SAID that she never knew I'd get off the drugs. So I did and IMO, deep deep down I think something went on OR would have gone on had I not called his wife. Then again like you say, I have no proof....but also, perhaps I put a bug in his wife's ear and stopped something that was starting.

All I know is he has tried numerous times which I won't mention to start trouble between us. f man, he gave her the name of a real estate agent....and I called the guy and said I was referred to him by shawn....immediately he said ya, I sold shawn and his wife a house. SHE told me someone completley different referred him. I'm not stupid.... And another time, she said she wanted to sell the house and I called and said a month ago if you remember that you'd said try asking if I leave for a while if that will surfice. At work, she said okay, in the driveway she couldn't even wait to get out of the car to say NO, I think we should sell the house.

If we split up.....I'll admit to you right now that I've got pent up anger for this man. He is a big boy 6'2" and from what I heard is athletic....poor wittle me is only 5'6".... I would be compelled after we split to check up on her at home and IF I caught something, GOD FORGIVE ME....I know I'm a sane man but the least of which would be certainly a 911 call needing an ambulance for one of us. I don't condone fighting, I NEVER believed in gun violence and I wouldn't resort to that but a good ole PLANNED fight would be asked of him. I would ask him to fight me ... phew, would he be sorry or I'd be dead from trying. See I'm venting, not actually planning.....I just have this sheet that is inside that IF I HAVE PROOF, I'd hurt him for destroying my family.

All that above is a pissed off husband scenario, now here is what would happen...I'd probably take pictures of his car there....I'd then divorce her and DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY not want that woman again. To me, like you, I'm one that is totally committed to my commitments, I follow the ten commandments too....sure my dad hit me but I still honor him. I also believe what comes around goes around too.

However, I have to look at the facts, she would have kept up this crap for a few months and guilt would have probably gotten the best of her and she would have forgiven me. With that said, I've let it go and won't mention it again.....

We've come this far with it, I have to look at tomorrow and not today.

bob

June 28, 2004

Bob,

If those questions are bothering you, then you need to talk to her about it in a civil way. Tell her what you told me. Let her know she needs to come clean about everything. Her getting this upset is sometimes a defense mechanism. What her boss is doing is also illegal if this is being done. Sexual harrassment. You need to have a true answer on what happened, for the peace of you & the relationship. Just asking her isn't accusing her. Did you ask her right out? What was her answer? Or did you just seem like you were accusing her?

If she wants any chance of this relationship working out, she needs to come clean if she did cheat on you. She did lie to you which is very hard on the trust issue. Trust just doesn't deal with if one is cheating or not, but also trust deals with the honesty of your mate in general. She lied to you several times, which isn't right. Has she ever apologized for it?

How did the weekend go? Did you ask her the things I mentioned that you should? Did you do the writing thing as I suggested?

Bob, it takes two to make a relationship work. You can give her all the love in the world. But if she doesn't love or respect you back, then there is nothing that can be done. It's like oil & gas to run an engine. You need both to keep it going. You need both people to have the love, even if there is hurt in the relationship to keep it going. Love is a very powerful thing. Alot of people have fought & died for that emotion & feeling. She needs to realize this takes presendence over everything else. If she loves you, then she will be honest about that night. You should be able to ask her what happened that night in details without her getting upset. You really have to follow your heart on things. She still hasn't replied to me.

June 28, 2004

Originally posted by jmargel
Bob,

If those questions are bothering you, then you need to talk to her about it in a civil way. Tell her what you told me. Let her know she needs to come clean about everything. Her getting this upset is sometimes a defense mechanism. What her boss is doing is also illegal if this is being done. Sexual harrassment. You need to have a true answer on what happened, for the peace of you & the relationship. Just asking her isn't accusing her. Did you ask her right out? What was her answer? Or did you just seem like you were accusing her?

If she wants any chance of this relationship working out, she needs to come clean if she did cheat on you. She did lie to you which is very hard on the trust issue. Trust just doesn't deal with if one is cheating or not, but also trust deals with the honesty of your mate in general. She lied to you several times, which isn't right. Has she ever apologized for it?

How did the weekend go? Did you ask her the things I mentioned that you should? Did you do the writing thing as I suggested?

Bob, it takes two to make a relationship work. You can give her all the love in the world. But if she doesn't love or respect you back, then there is nothing that can be done. It's like oil & gas to run an engine. You need both to keep it going. You need both people to have the love, even if there is hurt in the relationship to keep it going. Love is a very powerful thing. Alot of people have fought & died for that emotion & feeling. She needs to realize this takes presendence over everything else. If she loves you, then she will be honest about that night. You should be able to ask her what happened that night in details without her getting upset. You really have to follow your heart on things. She still hasn't replied to me.

Hi, hope the weekend was good for you.......Friday, we went out to dinner....she'd been pissed from the day before and had her ring off--as she does when she is pissed. Saturday came after I called her Friday a.m. and said I was sorry, sounded and was sincere, expressed how much pressure it is living with our son constatnly asking questions and complaining, etc. Anyway, Saturday, she was an angel, nice, sweet....we had a nice day. Saturday evening I cooked steaks and we all kinda fell out and went to bed early. Sunday, she went with me to buy dress clothes, we again went out to eat, and then she was relaxed and we watched a movie that evening... Nothing was mentioned abot selling the house over the entire weekend but she is cleaning as if we're selling.

I did an interview with a major dealer up in Wilkes-Barre, Sunday she wanted to see where I am thinking of working and was quite impressed, it is an awesome facility. Today, I got up EARLY and dressed and she saw me off as I went to the dealership for my 3rd interview in as many days.

Jeff, I can work, I just know it...sitting here now, I realize that coming home and sitting isn't for me, when I'm up there even thinking of working, I get excited. I don't like sitting and dwelling.... a--it isn't healthy, b--it does no good, c--idle minds wander and wonder.

As for the distrust, she has given me no reason to suspect anything of late....I CAN'T hold on to a suspicion, at some point IF there is to be a future, you've just got to let it go, work on myself, and let the cards fall where they are ment to fall. Trying to fight or talk(same thing) about the trip is useless....utterly useless. I'm NOT going to bring it up, she damn well knows how pissed I was----likewise, I know what she said back to me which was that she didn't cheat, that she couldn't rightly tell me based on my actions and being all screwed up. (so no matter what, she has my being screwed up to fall back on)...and also, I did threaten him, I called his wife, I embarrassed her and no she didn't say sorry because she screams that I would have been the same way had she told me......which honestly in that frame of mind, I would have. It is just the damn clothing she took which bugs the $hit out of me. I mean before, not now....for now, I see holding onto her IF she doesn't want me is futile, her emotions are ahead of her feelings so when she gets mad, she gets mad at the entire marriage, not just at me.

I miss the part you mention about sexual harrassment??? explain? However, there is no way she would look at it that way, she said he is a mentor and that is why she spent so much time with him. I cannot dispute that, he is the HR mgr, he is her direct boss, and all I can do is be myself, work on my future and go on. Stooping to her level IMO at this point does nothing but cause fights....fights I don't want, fights I won't do anymore. I'm going to nice her to death...there is only so long you can be mad at someone who is being nice to yoiu always. And if ultimately we divorce, so be it.....

Look, I'm a good guy, I don't believe in hitting or abuse, I don't go out to bars, I don't cheat, I have always been a provider, and I have no reservations telling you that I'm worth investing a marriage in. If she wants the bread buttered on both sides, she'll have to leave. If she wants a place of her own, she'll have to deal with it. I'm about to leave and go do my pee pee test for my job.....They called in between this post.

I'm offered to be with Acura, Lexus, or Mercedes....I'm leaning toward Acura since they also have Honda and by the way, they also have hyundai, chrysler, cadillac, GMC, so I have quite a selection!!

Look, questioning gets me nowhere, she'll REMEMBER the hell and all we went through. Let us not forget the exact words she said to me when she got home from that trip. "I"m so mad that had it not been for our son and the fact we have bills, she would have been outta here"....she is over it, over all the things...

Will it work? Donno....(don't know)....

What questions should I write down? Pretaining to wanting to get past the past? I don't want to ask about the shoes again, her reply was that she took them to go shopping that she wanted to take them to see if she could find an outfit. I already accused her.....I already said who the hell would take white shoes in Feb....and who the hell would this and that. I told her the scenario I had in my head that made me mad. I said, what furvered the rage was that I was thinking....why the hell is she going to put on high heels and lacy undies for someone else and not me, I should be the one to get that fantacy. To that, she said IT WAS STUPID .......actually she said WHAT, WHAT THE F ARE YOU THINKING? ......those are exact words used.

Anyway, I better scoot....

bob

June 28, 2004

Hi Bob,

Congrats! Good to see that something good has come your way. As for your wife, I guess her explation for the clothes would be sufficent. I would be more concerned about them not being able to get to her that night you called.

Honestly I think you two will only get so far unless counciling is done. You need a councilor who is certified in Marriage counciling. If you look for any, make sure they have that certification. Also make sure during your first visit, the councilor has a wedding ring on.

As for the things to write down. Write down things that bother you, and have her do the same. Then each of you go through each one, one by one. One on her list, then yours, etc.. You can also ask her to write down what she is feeling. This will allow her to write out to her heart's content and give her a chance to tell what's bothering her without any interruptions.

She's still not getting to the root of the problems. She can't go on pretending on what is about to happen isn't going to make a severe impact on the both of you. She can't go on pretending like she hasn't been a part of the problem. It just seems like you two are avoiding the issues to keep peace. You need to approach them, but in a non-threating way.

But again, congrats on the job. I'm sure you'll do great

June 28, 2004

I got to thinking about her waking up at the slightest movement, occasionally, I say not often, she does sleep like a rock. I had resigned myself to think she was not in the room. Another thing she started doing about that time was buy gum by the truckload.....never did that before either....My doc said perhaps the phone was an odd ring, she swears she was sleeping and says that looking at me but with a screechy yell. Then again, it was a long time ago. AAAAh, I can dwell on it until I'm nuts so what is the use.

Man, I agree about the counselor but HOW....won't be able to resolve "it" until we do. For some reason she either doesn't think it will help or doesn't care to do that. I think it is a mix....

I have to wait on the writing down issues...we're just friends and she is still sleeping in the other room. Honestly, I'm more of the one who has issues of distrust, she has already yelled her objections....I did this and that...you kinda know the deal. I wouldn't even know how to broach the subject.

She is in pretend land....nuff said. Hence the reason I want to show MAJOR independence by working. Not for her but for me to show myself I'm independent of HER. You see I used to be a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY good salesman and people liked me. I had to do something...perhaps IF truly she is feeling like the walls are closing in around her because she has taken on the burden of money maker then she'll feel a bit more lax....WHY oh WHY do I care what feelings she has?

Thanks for the advice as usual....

bob

June 29, 2004

You care because you love her. Yelling her objections isn't communicating very well. Defense mode kicks in, and whatever she yells at you to the reasons why, your reaction & feeling is that you disappointed her. Men hate that feeling, so in our defense we try to counter that feeling by giving reasons why we did those things, or try to make them think they aren't right in how they should feel.

What that does then, is for the woman not to feel validated or understood. That gets her upset because she thinks whatever she is trying to say to you, you are denying or that it's not much of a big deal to you.

For example, if a woman wants to go out and asks 'I'm going out, do you mind?' and your answer is 'I dont care', most women will take that as a negative view. Men on the other hand don't perceive that as one, when we say those words. Instead of 'I dont care', using 'Go ahead, have a nice time' is the world of difference to a woman.

It's hard because we are so different. Miscommunication on that level is hard to see, even when it's happening. If you want to work this out, she has to be willing. If not, then no amount of counciling in the world will help. Even if she has one little inkling that perhaps she might give things another chance, then there's the possiblity of things coming together. But living day to day without discussing the issues in the right way, nothing will happen. Like I said before, the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over & over, expecting different results.

It's good that you are getting this job for YOU. You need to regain your pride & confidence back. You self-esteem is pretty low right now, which is understandable. Once you gain those back, your old-self will be coming back more & more. It will be something that you don't have to 'work' on. It's something that will come back naturally. Except this time all the negative traits won't be there.

June 29, 2004

Well, to be blunt, yesterday she was not at her desk all day, I was up in W-Barre but our son had a question for mom and tried calling most of the day and she wasn't at work. Long story short, today, I decided NOT THINKING OF ANYTHING....to do laundry as I start tomorrow at my job. Sunday, she had bought two pair of black undies, or should I say I did when I bought some dress slacks and those were amongst the purchase, when I checked out, there was no hiding them. Anyway, once again, I didn't give it a second thought until today when I was doing laundry and as usual I spray stains on shirts, underwear, etc....and this black pair had a white streak that was like semen when we used to have sex. Sorry for being so blunt, trust me, I did laundry so I would know the difference. Then again, I don't have proof.....and it could be natural discharge.

The term "could" be....is the key, you've said, eventually things do come out if someone is having an affair. Is she in love with someone else? These are all natural questions....However, I'm inclined to tell you that until we divorce, I'm NOT going to have sex, sure it is natural but I don't NEED guilt on top of being confused. Understand? I guess it is one of those 10 commandment things I cherish as well as the fact I took a vow.

Is she stupid or what? Or am I stupid? If she is cheating, I don't want any part of her EVER again, no love, no nothing. I'd say that would be the pinacle in my eyes to end all ties except that I'd never want our son to know why. See, this time, I'm not paranoid, not in the least.....I'm only putting two and two together. As a matter of fact, I initially just discounted them as being "the way it is"....thinking females have discharge. This time however, on black it is ez to see it is white and shiney identical to when we used to have sex and trust me, we have not had sex. But, and this is a big but...there is no proof it is semen OR vaginal discharge. By the way, yesterday, immediately after coming home, she did a load of darks...including her uniform....unusual no, occasionally she'll do a load or two. You would have thought she would have put a semen laiden pair in the load of darks yesterday had it been from you know what. God I hate typing this as I don't want you to think I'm paranoid or stupid. I know if I were the one who cheated yesterday and they had stains, I would want to rid myself of the evidence, huh.

I hate, hate, hate talking/writing about this.....I don't know if I'm wrong, I don't know if there is something.

Again, as you say for proof, none except evidence....IMO, underwear isn't proof positive. Anyway, I put back the second hamper with the underwear and that is that.

I learned in sales, it isn't what you say, it is how you say it when it comes to addressing people, and I had a drug addict friend who used the insanity definition from 12 step program.

She KEEPS stating that she wants time alone, not a divorce now and that she does NOT want to date others; if I want I can but she won't.....that was after I said, what do I put my life on hold while you decide...that was when she said I could date if I wanted. I'm tired of her dictating my future, I obviously have a statement to make by working, I have a BIT of a problem today dealing with what to do.

Things would be so much easier if we aired our laundry.....pun intended. I'm not pissed off, not paranoid, not all flustered like I would have been before. If anything, just the fact knowing IF she is having an affair, she must have an enormous amount of guilt to bare along with knowing what she is doing to her family.

To me, that wouldn't be worth any woman, not even the most beautiful, perfect lady who was after me, my ideals prevent ALL.

bob

believe it or not do trust her, I just am suspicious...

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