believe it or not do trust her, I just am suspicious...

[jmargel]

Anyway by small stuff, like buying her a card for no reason, or making a bath up for her when you know she'll be home, or just buying her a single red rose. If i'm out to the store or something and see like a rose i'll buy it for my girl, just really for no reason. Sometimes it works really well, but with me I don't think my fiancee appreciates it as much as she should. But I have to take that with a grain of salt.

 

Watching movies is cool, if you know of one of her favorite ones, go rent it without saying anything to her. I'm sure that'll put a smile on her face. Or even planning a picnic, or going for a walk (make sure you hold hands). Most women like that kind of sappy stuff. Just because you have a 'badboy' image doesn't mean you can't be a gentleman and a romantic at times.

 

If work is placing alot of stress on her, what can you do to cut back on some things so she doesn't have to work as much? Her carrying this load would place a big burden on her shoulders. She needs time for herself and time to do things she likes to do.

 

Threating to beat your boss's ass is only going to push her further away from you. If you continue to go that route all your fears will come true. You are only pushing her 'into' him. If you trust her (which I think you do have doubts about that) then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Have you two ever discussed 'boundaries'? Even though it may seem obvisous me & my fiancee had that talk. On what is acceptable and what is not. For example: Kissing, flirting, etc.. is cheating in my book and she agrees as well. If some chick comes upto me, my fiancee won't get jealous because she knows & trusts me to do the right thing. I do the same for her as well.

 

Her losing 30 lbs is not a sign that she is trying to attract other men. It's her wanting to feel good about herself, just like what you are doing. She trusts you that you are building yourself up because of your own personal goals. Not to attract chicks. If she wanted to she could have easily cheated on you with a number of men. Her boss isn't the only guy in the world that might think she is attractive. Even if she thought another guy was cute or hot, so what? We are human beings, and I would imagine you think other women out there are beautiful, yet you love & respect your wife enough not to pursue. That's where the difference lies.

 

Before you two got married, what did the both of you do during that first year together? I imagine you had common interests in which the two of you did things together. Try going back to those things. Even if it's reminicing about the younger days you two had together and the fun times you had. Any type of good memories that can be shared and talked about will put a smile on both your faces.

 

Take a day or so and totally stop analyzing her & the whole relationship. Take this weekend and think all positive thoughts and do something fun with her. Don't talk about the relationship. You both need to be able to enjoy time with each other.

[Poconobob]

Thanks, even if I don't see her in person, I'll ask her for a referral...or if I had my choice, once a week I could drive over. It shows slightly over an hour drive.

 

I've never been one for the "net" either, especially meeting anyone; matter of fact on Yahoo IM, I have chat and IM's turned off except for friends. BTW, I'm Poconobob64 on Yahoo....should ya happen to use it. It is on 99% of the time...

 

As far as buying her little tokens of appreciation, I have not tried lately to see how receptive she'd be. Here is truly the relationship status....think of us as very close roommates but nothing more. She doesn't say love ya ever, never a kiss, definitely no holding hands...THIS is where I'm having trouble knowing when or how to attempt a move in back into her space. I've given her such a long line per her request....as she called it, I was up her ass constantly. It pissed off my mom when I told her what she said in anger....she said, I love you but I'm not feeling anything when you kiss me good bye....my mom said no ****, that isn't a passionate kiss, it is a simple peck and it isn't as if we're making love. However, it must be noted she said that when REALLY pissed off at me, again, she only says that when mad. I will point out, my wife makes and extra, extra, extra overtly extra point of saying goodbye to our son and saying I love you to him. Same thing at bedtime, makes a point of doing this in front of me to seemingly make me jealous......which other than it being so friggen obvious, it doesn't bother me .... I am close to my mom, speak quite candidly... and she said she is sick of the "mind games" and all and what I did was bad but not to string me along like this as it is unhealthy. We have a problem on my side with heart attacks, etc....and the stress of HER constant games or true feelings(don't know)......is really, really stressful.

 

As for movies, we have a home theater room, over 500 movies and I always have the latest releases. It was a hobby that went to the 'nth degree...so getting a favorite movie is just a walk over to the collection. I'm kinda out as far as being able to pick up a movie. I did notice she never picks a love story movie OR especially a scary movie(because she used to grab onto me during those)....

I've tried the picnic approach...even so far as it being a simple one on the meadow back towards the clearing of our land which is a picture perfect overlook of the valley below by 1500 feet down and she has declined. I might add for some time now, it has been the three of us doing things, when in Florida, we used to go out as a couple but since moving and having a mtg which is 3X higher than the previous, we had decided to not go out as much though whenever I ask if she wants to go out and see a movie, dinner, etc.....she definitely wants and asks our 16 year old to go.

Mine used to be very, very appreciative of getting a flower/card....but in anger during a temper tantrum she said I keep trying to compensate by buying for example roses on valentines day....she said, I appreciate it but it does not change the way I feel....again, it is only when pissed off about another subject totally that she gets her digs in.... I said something like how can you all of a sudden be over me, when we moved, you put a big heart in the mud and wrote Cathy loves Bob......I told her that because she said she just "isn't happy" and has not been for the longest time and she has just now grown herself to stand up to me about it. NOBODY, I mean nobody can believe we're having problems, every friend we've ever known has said what a perfect couple we are.....we even up here have been affectionate, loving, and other than my "fatherly" role which you pointed out quite well, she still relies on me to do the things she would have to do. An example of this is when she wanted a divorce, she had said that......I said fine, go get one....and on top of that I said well, if you want a divorce, I have to teach you some things as I still care about you...i.e., how to check oil, when to change oil, what to do "IF's"....etc.

See how complicated this all is.....and on top of it all is all these mixed signals. Hence the reason my doctor told me to ONLY work on myself and don't say I love you, show it.....don't say I've changed, show it...all things act on as if we are best friends, not lovers. We have not been lovers since my accusation and subsequent hallucination and threats to beat up the boss.....By the way, I'm NOT a Bad Boy...really I'm not, just an extrovert. I'm honest, never have cheated, never even touched(literally) never literally touched another person, have always been home on time, showed love and admiration, helped her through periods of her life when she was down, helped her when she almost died of a mosquito infected bug which caused brain swelling and the loss of a fetus 10 years ago, and I can go on and on....She was the same way back EXCEPT for when I went off the Morphine which in that year I was on the patches essentially died emotionally. Month by month, she'd tell me I needed to have my meds fixed....and week by week I sought new doctors, had so so so many med changes, all the while nobody addressed that it could be the synthetic Morphine.... It was only after I learned the patches can cause hallucinations and never should have been prescribed did I learn that people with brain injuries never in the first place should have gotten them. I was on a dose equal to what a cancer patient got....and I was NUMB to life. The patches don't get you high but they cloud everything...call it mask everything over. On top of that, I might add during that period when I was so paranoid, she didn't tell me of her trip, etc.....she packed two pair of lace undies, and high heels for her trip with him. Now, the heels were white lace, and the month was Feb...who the heck would pack high heels in white during winter???? That was only the fuel and the ignition was my finding she was going with him, HENCE the outrage. Was it innocent??? Don't know, nobody will ever know, that is where trust comes in because I can't say either way since I was on drugs then....Believe me, I went WAY OVER THE TOP, I called her cell phone while she was en-route and said..."is he with you", NO NO NO she kept saying.....then I said I know he is....I called work. She says to this day it was because I was on the drugs....could she have wanted to get even for my saying the previous month, "why don't you take rubbers" on a trip she had and went by herself....did I push her to cheat? Those things are all paramount to your knowing just how bad "we" made it on each other......we were both wrong, however, her being an RN she said she told me never to take those patches in the first place. See, the patches on top of all this, they are called Duragesic, the patches were later found in MY LOT NUMBER to be defective and leaked extra meds into people's systems so on top of it all, I was also being switched ON OFF ON OFF of differing meds except for the Duragesic....the doctor kept trying different things. So the constant change of meds and withdrawal of one of 'em was going on, and I might add at the EXACT same time as the trip. I'll never know whether or not she did.....so all I can go by according to my Psychologist is proof, what actual proof do I have....ANSWER NONE, absolutely none....just paranoia/hallucination/skeptical....AND that since then and her loss of weight, wearing lacy undies which she NEVER did before, also I'd see her spray perfume under her clothes and down there if you know what I mean.....for the past few months, call and say she was working late, and what proof do I have she cheated or is cheating OR IS JUST improving her self image, NONE. Now I can say, she works in a meat packing plant, she is the Health Svcs Mgr...which by the way, I truly helped her get as I constructed a letter written to help her get the job and now it is biting me in the ass. So on top of just working as mgr, she is the RN for 1000 employees, mostly men.... I have checked up on her to see if her vehicle was in the lot, which it was always there. Sometimes after saying she'd be late, she wouldn't be at her desk....but, with that, again no proof. On the cell phone, NO odd calls, NO phone calls to he house, No nothing... Hence again, the reason my doctor gets so pissed at me when I say SHE SHE SHE, he doesn't want to hear what she is doing as he says, you've got no proof and stop trying to find proof.

 

There is a tid bit of "issues".... Now work IS very stressful, she says her boss has been a mentor....and I might add, she told me he is good looking which PISSED me off 6 months ago. He is married with multiple kids....his wife when I called his house looking for him said he was on a business trip and I said do you know who with.....she said no, I said MY WIFE....and to that she said she trusted her hubby and IF my wife is like that, he isn't. Ya, famous last words, huh..... As time has gone on, I've just been checking here and there but have come up with nothing except as my doc says finding nothing and is it real, NO unless you want here-say.

This has mostly all been since Feb.....and I've had to detox from Morphine for 3 months, it has been the single hardest thing I've had to do in my life and even though I was like an addict coming off, I did the day she returned from her trip with him as I want to be fully congnisent of my surroundings, pal, it was HELL, utter HELL coming off those patches. I was advised that you cannot just STOP, it is impossible to STOP them but I said I didn't give a **** about it and I have to detox. He advised me to go into a center which I didn't as I wanted to have it BURNED into my brain just how bad a feeling it was. I was so so so sick for weeks after Feb 23rd which was the day I went to my primary care doc and yanked off the patch in front of him and told him NO MORE.....over and over and over he said you have to taper them. I subsequently went through withdrawal.....OMG was it bad, I puked, had confusion, convulsions, jerking of limbs, sweats where I was cold yet sweating, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't even walk as I'd fall down. What did she do, NOTHING, completely ignored me.....as she was so pissed and hurt....It wasn't then that she said divorce, it was during that two week period she said she'd wanted a separation. What I did was fly to florida after a couple weeks and stay with a friend and seek help of my former Psychologist, Psychiatrist(DO), WHO together made me well again. I owe everything to those two who even though insurance paid only for one visit per week, had me in DAILY for 45 min, for two weeks......Upon my return, she said she didn't miss me, in fact she was happy I was gone.......said she didn't feel that feeling of having to answer to anyone about where she was, when she'd be home. Now I didn't check and ask constantly where or when she'd be home except for when it snowed. We as you may know get POUNDED worse than just about anywhere in Pa here.....there are twisty roads up to our house. Speaking of house, she said had it not been for our house, our son, she would have not even come home after the accusations and phone calls to her boss.

 

So I wasn't being a "bad boy"......I was a hurt, angry, pissed off husband fueled by being on defective drugs...

 

In the last 90 days, I've done a 360....literally. I can handle it if we break up, I can handle it ... or so I say but I'm in love with her. She says she has ZERO doubts that she loves me still and that is what is making her decisions so hard. See the confusion? When pissed, she'll say divorce.....after I said FINE, it removed the fuel she had for divorce. She said it is too complicated to divorce....then another day, she'd say she cannot stand it....then another day she would say something else. Again, only after I said or did something which she found to be my obsessing.......She is constantly looking for errors in my ways.......ALWAYS. Slowly but surely over the past I'd say month, she can find nothing, absolutely nothing to gripe at me about because I've been counseled on all this and learned how to deal with my problems.

 

I was told....write down all the good things about her, the honesty which has been displayed for 17 years and then compare to now......IF I do that, I find that I have no evidence, that I see a hurt individual who lashes out at me and someone who truly is confused. My doc says TIME....TIME has to pass and it may not work out....but he said, the longer you two are together, the more I show I'm opening up to her having space, the more things will go my way. I was told to take the emotion out of my decisions and just be myself......

 

We got married years ago VERY quickly....I met her and within two weeks asked her to marry me. I lived in Mississippi and worked for a certain part of the gov't.....she lived in Florida. I drove all the way there and she drove all the way up every weekend and we married two months after knowing each other. Since then we have been inseparable. During the first year, do the math, we had a child....our son at 16 so subtract the 3 months from the year and you'll see she got pregnant right about when we married. We were dirt poor as I quit my gov't job and she had no formal education......we lived on love. Being that my job in gov't had no civilian equivalent, I had to find something I was good at...and ended up finding one great job running two dealerships for a car dealer which I did for 12 years until my family and I were hit by an RV towing a stationwagon. I went from making 140K, her about to graduate as an RN to making only 66% of my former earnings as a mgr.

The fact she has a career, the fact she is secure, the fact she has the new found freedom all played into the entire picture....

 

I don't THREATEN to beat anyone up......however IF I find out it did happen or evidence someone will pay dearly. I know I 'm not supposed to say that but IF I went through hell and back and it was all true, there will be fury like no tomorrow. I have never inappropriately touched her, NEVER hit her, nothing and even so I wouldn't touch her as I don't believe in that. I don't believe in violence believe it or not.....just the angry husband hurt overwhelms.

 

 

 

So now, you see....it is complicated, hurt on both ends. I do trust her but I had been looking for suspicious things just as she was/is looking for errors in me.

 

I'm being brutally honest, I'm just one confused individual as she is a best friend, we talk about everything, talk in bed at night with all the lights off, giggle, etc.....but I don't know how to NOW or soon take the next step. Whether it be to try to hold hands, whether it be to buy her a flower, whether it be to let her make the first move, whether it be to attempt to kiss her when we're talking in bed.

 

SORRY THIS IS SO LONG...I just had to get this off my chest

 

bob

[jmargel]

Narrow your situation down a little bit:

 

- There was some sort of emotional mistreatment which has turned her away

- You are not trusting her with her boss which makes her feel even more turned away

- She is hurt bad and might feel the need to regain control of her life since she's not getting any of the benefits of being a devoted wife

- She's not happy, but yet doesn't know if it's all due to the marriage. She may also think if she could fall back into love with you that she may not want the divorce

- She could also be saying she wants a divorce because she wants to feel heard, and wants to know within herself she can regain control of her life

- She is trying to find faults with you now that you are changing to try to rationalize her behavior

 

Even though you two aren't divorced, you both aren't acting like a married couple emotionally. What she may need the most is to have her hand held or something small like that. In that situation, actions speak tons more than any words. Sounds like you both hurt each other pretty bad. You need to work through that and let it go in order for things to come back to normal again, which would take alot of time.

 

It's useless to get an answer from her on what she wants. She doesn't know, so asking her would only make things more frustrating to her. When she says she 'isn't happy' it could be because of the marriage, and it could also be a mix of other things as well. The only thing you can do is keep working on yourself, but also work on the relationship too. Do you two sleep together? If so, that would be the perfect time to curl upto her. Women like that security. If you act afraid to show her affection she is going to pick up on it. At some point in time that wall needs to be broken.

[Poconobob]

Emotional mistreatment DEFINITELY, hence the reason that I've had to make a major paradigm...which I knew for a long time needed to be made but I guess never came to a head as it has now...i.e., hit bottom. I had to hit bottom both with meds AND psychologically. Psychologically, I'd just thought all was "hunky dory"....missing each segment of her dislike for certain parts of my personality. They say, as couples live together you take on each other's personality traits. She used to be VERY insecure about thinking I was cheating, thinking I was looking at another girls butt.....and things of that sort. Over time, I became exactly like her, she on the other hand picked up my traits of being VERY self expressive, not only being extroverted but even overbearing with the mouth. This coming from a lady who was otherwise a quiet, yet mouthy Irish girl.

I do trust her with her boss...that has passed in time, there was a manifestation of a psychological dillusion or hallucination or OCD ... which by the way is part of my disability, rationalization, most people can rationalize where I on the other hand have to think deeply about decisions. I'll admit that rationalizing this situation NOW has me confused and I cannot shake certain elements. What I mean by that is that I'm truly in love with her yet the lack of affection has left me with a little "voice" for lack of a better word which casts doubt. That doubt is solely sexual as we aren't making love....We stopped that BEFORE the Feb 20ish episode because she was over it or so she said "over it" and not "happy" weeks before. Our last was Feb at the beginning and at that time, VERY passionate. In Jan, upon her return from a trip, she was mad, asking constantly WHAT WAS WRONG, what was wrong with me, why am I acting strange, why was I not excited to see her return home from the week long trip.....and over the weeks thereafter, we sank, plunged... In the beginning of Feb in her planner, she'd written "M share ride" which was her boss's last name and at the same time was on a site for those girly undies....for fashion, sexy undies, high heels. I forget the name, it is one very famous and in lots of malls... Anyway, the week before the trip, she bought high heel shoes....like I put before, lace up and were white. All this conjured up a HUGE hallucination. Paranoia, hallucination and combine that with a damn morphine patch that was leaking along with depression....and on her side WOULD YOU BLAME HER? I mean, here is a guy who is on these multiple drugs, low self esteem, acusitory anyway....perhaps, just perhaps I drove her to it? Nobody will ever know, and it is only TRUST which I now have, TRUST that because of her fury over my accusation that hurt has caused MONTHS of anger. So therefore, I cannot say that there is anything going on....What proof do I have??? NONE, I cannot see it, I cannot believe it because it is all in my mind and nowhere else. I've found no strange things that cheaters do, NONE, just feelings or former feelings I should say.

 

DEFINITELY hurt bad, she does feel the need to regain control of her life....that is a very profound thing she is doing, showing independence, showing she CAN comp without me.

 

Yes, yes...she is not happy, yet I know for a fact in her mind's eye your saying she may think if she could fall back in love, she may not want divorce. You see, with her possible "change in life", it comes on the heel of a problem in marriage and VERY, VERY, VERY bad periods, mood swings, NASTY, hot/cold feeling, cannot sleep, and all the things associated with "the change".

 

She is trying to find faults with you now that you are changing to try to rationalize her behavior --------- enough said!! Again you've been very much on par.

 

Emotionally we aren't acting like a married couple.....she does not want that. She says or said weeks and weeks ago that she does not want to lose her "standard of living" and the afford-ability of divorce, the bull you have to go through to divorce. She doesn't want to go through the steps for divorce.....thus far, we've stagnated very much so in a holding pattern of being BEST FRIENDS. Over the past few weeks, I'm telling you she has been so so so so much nicer to me, calling me Robbie instead of Bob....Robbie is when she is happy with me.

When I am scared to touch her, she definitely feels it....I don't know whether the time is right NOW to attempt to hold hands??? I don't know, I just don't....before when I tried, she recoiled all limbs, made drastic attempts to sit as far away from me as possible whereas now, she sits on the opposite side of the couch with her feet only a few inches from me. She HAD started off and on sleeping in the spare bedroom because I'd snore....now she rocks me and says 'STOP SNORING' ..... or smacks me with a pillow in a laughing manner, even at 3am.... We now sleep together all the time, I mean all the time....platonic of course. Under so so so so much PUSH on my side in my mind, I want to cuddle. I want that so much, it would emotionally send me into orbit..... We used to be a couple which would cuddle but over the past year, a cuddle on my part mean sex....immediately she'd think sex was my motive so I don't know if that would be wise YET.

 

Again, I refer to the kitty cat example....I don't want to scare off the kitty right now as seemingly it is coming closer to me.

 

I know this is a weird thing to mention but she has this chart magnet where you put your feelings over the picture, i.e., happy, sad, frightened, leary, confident, cautious, hopeful..... It has been changed over months by her to differing things, confused was before, angry, leary, sad, and it went from that to hopeful, then cautious, and now she has it on confident. She makes sure I see it, it is next to the coffee maker on the fridge and she placed it right where I can see it and makes a point to change it when I'm right there.....then looks at me. I don't know what to make of it...it is one of those freebee magnets, quite neat actually...a How I feel today...magnet with a square overlay to set on the feeling. What do you make of "confident"???

 

She has not once MENTIONED, ALLUDED, NOTHING to divorce, separation, nothing since weeks ago...and after a week away at her mom's house, still no mention of anything, no actions of divorce.

What could be the reason she is doing nothing......She has made zero attempts to pack, or diss me, or even mention separation.

The weekend, she worked Sat/Sun and was off Monday... She was really, really cool to me; cool as in real nice.

 

My mother spoke with our son and then she told me what he told her; Mom and Dad all of a sudden seem to be normal, they don't fight, they don't push each other around fighting, all is calm.

 

--I know women like to cuddle....I know of how their intimacy is REALLY different from men's....I'd love to try it but I don't want to be pushy. She also LOVES a back rub but weeks ago and before declined. I've mad pat on the back touches lately, knee rub for a moment and she has not recoiled...but that is it. I'm confused when/where/how AS YOU KNOW...timing is almost everything.

 

"Do you two sleep together? If so, that would be the perfect time to curl up to her. Women like that security. If you act afraid to show her affection she is going to pick up on it. At some point in time that wall needs to be broken."

 

Again, yes we sleep together.....It is breaking the walls down that I cannot overcome!

 

I've tried and tried to rack my brain to do something for her where she won't have the notion that I'm trying to buy my way into her life as in have flowers sent to work, a plant, or buy her a card......If I bought a card, I don't know what to put other than "thinking of you"....but again I have this wall to climb.

 

I think before I react inappropriately again, I should continue to work on myself......BUT in my mind and correct me if I'm wrong, I "think" about waiting on her to make the first move.

 

Am I wrong to wait on her to make the first move??? Should I try to inch back??? If so, what? I have to tip toe through not being overbearing yet doing something.

 

I'd thought of having a song dedicated to her....on the radio yet I don't know if she is going to be listening...I've thought of many things BUT when I speak with my Psychologist, he gets pissed off when I mention anything except for things about me. I've thought of buying plane tickets to the Bahama's yet this in doing so would reset me to the restart phase as then I'd be discounting her thoughts and feelings by in essence saying...."I am not listening and have not listened to you and your feelings, here are some tickets for us to do WHAT I WANT"..

 

I'm so so so confused, however, again I want to say, I've talked with my Psychologist who isn't a marriage guy, just someone who deals with feelings. He said to me, Bob, this isn't the beginning of your problems, 3-4 months ago wasn't the problem, the problem has been around for years, I helped you last time when the two of you would come in and don't tell me this is all new. You need to work on yourself, stop trying, let go and understand it might not work.

 

I said the other day which I'm NOT supposed to do....I love you.....as she was leaving for work when she said to our son; I love you Bryan....and I spoke up, I love you...

 

--I had an idea-- Even though my parents are on the defensive side telling me DON'T LEAVE, DON'T do this/that....stay put, I think maybe leaving for a couple weeks might be helpful. I say might...because it would give her a chance to forgive upon my return. Dumb idea huh? But I don't want to leave and have her comfortable with my being gone and it being better here without me. My parents told me should I leave for a vacation to florida she could get a restraining order against me and I would not be able to come home?? They are VERY pessimistic not optimistic...

 

bob

[jmargel]

Nah, don't leave & don't plan the trip to the bahamas. Her using that little magnet is saying alot. It's apparent she has some pretty deep wounds, and with deep wounds you use stitches. It takes awhile for those stitches to do it's job & to heal the wound properly. Taking the stitches out (ie. moving too fast) can open the wound back up. Her showing you this magnet is her way of showing you her wound and seeing how it's getting better.

 

It must be hard living like that, day to day wanting to smother her with love but can't.

 

You need to let her come to you, but also bait her in showing little bits of affection here & there. You are right w/ that 'kitty cat' approach. One night this week while she is just about to fall asleep, just put your hand somewhere on her so it's touching her (I wouldn't recommend any private parts). Or while in bed, brushing her hair with your fingers might be nice. If she rejects you don't take it to heart, and you shouldn't take it as a step backwards either. If she's receptive to it, just keep doing it for awhile and don't pursue anything else. Going too fast would turn her off.

 

You can always ask her if she wants to do something 'special' with you, such as going out to a certain place to eat, etc.. I would stay away from buying her material things if she has that notion that her love can be bought. But there also comes a point in time where she needs to either accept what has happened in the past and willing to move on with you or not. This is both your decision, not just hers. You at any time can tell her you don't want to live this way & need to move on and that you regret what you have done to her. I don't think anyone can recommend a timeline when this should take place, only you can determine that. At some point all of this becomes a childish game. Not all of this is your fault either. I'm sure she might have some issues that a councilor would help her with.

 

Remember your psychologist isn't married. He probably has never experienced alot of what you two are going through, this is why he wants to focus only on you. Maybe his approach is if you constrate all about you, that things will either fall into place, or if your marriage doesn't last you'll be on a strong enough foundation to stand on your own.

 

I'd really suggest calling that councilor I goto. You have issues you need to deal with together. Your psychologist, in my opinion is only fixing one half of the problem.

 

Just remember if your wife really wanted to go, she would've left. That's the most important thing right now. She hasn't given up and it shows that she does love you. She needs to realize that saying it back to you, won't make her lose any control in her life.

[Poconobob]

My Psychologist is married but I guarantee he has not had to have the problem of rationalizing what is real and what isn't. He is working on just me....for fallout or whatever.

 

It is VERY hard not to be in the same seat I've been in for 17 years, VERY hard as I used to grab hands and walk the neighborhood, walk in the mall holding hands, joking, playing and now we still do the same things, it is just we don't hold each other. That is not natural for me.....I'm having major trouble dealing with that.

 

On the positive side, I'm finding communication easier so long as we don't broche the subject of our relationship....fore whenever we do, it always ends or should I say ended with her saying I am not listening and I'm doing all the talking because she'll point out a fault or something I did incorrectly and then I try to explain. My doc said RUN when she starts on that blame game.....to avoid those uncomfortable positions for now and continue to show her and IF the strength held for years comes through, she will come back.

 

I'll try to rub her back or hair.....I won't go any farther obviously....and see what happens. I guess the words for now is "news tomorrow".

 

I'm headed to the gym to put some stress out to pasture, you have a great day! I'll be back home around 3pm if not sooner.

 

I'm afraid to call....the counselor, I've been given so much poor advice that I'm kinda gun shy. I've got to say though the part of it that disturbs me is I'm willing to go to great lengths such as drive all that way but I know for a fact she isn't. She has way, way to heavy a work load to take a trip like that unless it was on a Sat/Sun when she is off. That is the impass....

 

bob

[jmargel]

My councilor is also available Saturdays too. For him to say 'walk away' when she starts talking about what you did, that is very poor advice. All that is telling her is that she can't talk about what is/ has bothered her about the situation. Instead of running away, tell her you understand, and make her feelings feel validated. Don't go into reasons on why you did 'this' or 'that' or don't try to explain away the disappointment you gave to her in the past.

 

When you talk about the relationship and she goes off on you, just acknowledge what she says, even though it may be very hard not to want to argue back, resist the tempation. She will in the long run then be more acceptable to your reasonings.

 

Look at it this way, taking his advice, everytime you talk about the relationship you walk away from her when she wants to tell you what's really causing all of this. In that area you aren't making any progress. Just try this once and see what happens. I'm sure she'll be dumbfounded and not be ready for your new reaction.

[Poconobob]

I guess I should expound a bit. What he meant was to agree with her but when she is in a fury, agree then listen, don't argue and avoid conflict. Exit the situation....

 

Oh, last night she fell asleep on the couch and I rubbed her hair back and said why don't ya go to bed. Once in bed, I brushed back her hair and rubbed her shoulder for a 20 second time and said nighty night. She didn't say a word except night, see ya in the a.m....oh and said if I snore she is going to beat me with a pillow.

 

I don't wanna go to quickly on this....

 

I'm telling ya, you are really helping me! Thus far I have not been able to cope as well and I've not been able to cover as much ground as I have since posting back and forth. Wish there was a way to emphasize how much I appreciate the GOOD advice!

 

Very few people have understood, I mean very few.....either they say to stay the course or tell me to confront the situation.

 

You'd mentioned something to the effect that it is tough, well it is VERY tough......especially with her new chassis...lol, she looks REAL good.

 

One thing she does in the a.m. is driving me nuts, I think she does it on purpose.....She'll make a point to say to our son "I love you, bye" and sometimes hug him.....then kinda look over at me and say a flat BYE.......today I said, love ya, c ya, bye...quickly which she responded by saying have a good day.

 

Man, she looks so cute.....I swear I'm going to get a mutt ugly chick if this doesn't work out, lol. I'd said before if we broke up I'd get the very type she hates, a big breasted blonde...lol....I NEVER told her that, I told a friend that. BTW, my friend's wife is a counselor...marriage, drug, child...she won't counsel me because of the relationship BUT she does tell the husband. He tells me constantly to not worry that she is dealing with me and watching me and that I need to chill out and don't rock the boat. He tells me and I've listened to LET IT GO....let the cheat idea go and that she didn't cheat, she isn't that type....and IF she were, she would have left and said the hell with bills, the hell with everything to have her own pad to continue a relationship. Lastly, he said that his wife said TYPICALLY, if there is another person, especially a single man, he'll PRESS her to leave her husband and the more he PRESSES and she doesn't it will cause a rift in between. However, he adamently states over and over based on his wife's advice that nothing shows she is a cheater. They came over here on Memorial Day for a cook out...I saw the two kinda sneak off outside and talk. Unfortunately as you know it poured rain, we were supposed to go to Hickory Run State Park...(my wife's idea)....and his wife told him that though she wouldn't state what they talked about, they "had a good conversation".

 

So I can say, I've lived and loved her for 17 years and I can wait out the situation because I love her. Not one of those love things like a relative, I LOVE HER deeply and not in an obsessive way. Short of her coming to me and saying she has another man, there is NOTHING I'd say I'm over it to. If she did that, some dude is in for it....which I DO FEAR....man if I found I went through hell, utter HELL only to find my concerns were well founded, I just know myself and would end up in jail.... Stupid I know! I know how stupid that would be to do that but I won't even go there as I'm really thinking positive.

 

BTW, she stopped wearing the new wares of T backs....I'm wondering all along if she wasn't doing that on purpose to get a reaction. It IS odd she wore them in the first place as she always said she hated a string up her butt.....I mean always!

 

Well, better not type another novel...

 

Thanks,

 

bob

[jmargel]

Any non-negative reaction is a postive reaction. In the morning, don't say 'Love ya, or I love you'. She's expecting that. Just say 'Have a good day', and let it go at that. It might be hard to not do that but right now she may still think there are no meaning behind those words. Just try to smile when you see her, but still act like yourself.

 

If she has another man (which I doubt) going after him or her won't do you any good. Try not to act on emotion, usually it gets you into more trouble than good.

[Poconobob]

When I type my feelings, I'm not saying I'd act or re-act out the way I was before.....It is that thought elimination that my doctor has pounded into my head.

 

My doc-Psychologist did save my marriage last time but this time, he says to work on myself as it may not work out. My friend said it is a scare tactic to get me to CHANGE and finally CHANGE for the better....IMO, I tend to agree with you though, I mentioned to him the possibility of his calling my wife and he told me to not tell him what to do. He is VERY much a hard head....his method of YELLING at me sometimes is the only way to get through my barrier. Put it this way, since going to see him and having counseling, he has helped ME to change....says not to say I LOVE YOU.....

 

I was told to buy the book "Boundries in Marriage" by Townsend and Cloud by my other psychologist...Ya, I have two, one who works for the insurance company and then my regular Psychologist. The one who works for the insurance company usually doesn't counsel, he usually is the one to approve or decline a patient for counseling.....but we've gotten to be friends and he has talked to me. My primary Psychologist YELLED at me to not worry about anything else but ME, to live each day as it comes and STOP obsessing on her, on my relationship because the root of the problem is my clingy nature and that is what he wants stopped. His name is Dr. Boutin....his background is from Yale, Ohio State, and Berk insitute of Cognitive thinking.... I do agree with you that I also need to work on my relationship but I can't have two therapists and I feel I need Dr. Boutin. It was initially my wife's idea to have me speak with Dr. Boutin again after our falling out.

 

I have a question....How would she get my wife to agree to come IN? My wife is so stead fast hard headed and has said NO to therapy that it isn't something she'd entertain......YET, she has gone when we were down in Florida a couple times within the past 90 days to Dr Boutin's office because she knew he'd tear my ass out and agree with her. She doesn't want to hear that SHE is the problem.....however, she does admit that it isn't all me....and that she has had these feelings for a long time.

 

That above paragraph is kind of the impass I'd have to overcome....She trusts Dr. Boutin so much, even though Dr. Boutin has told me she is doing some things not appropriate yet he won't call her. He says because she isn't receptive, he feels the timing isn't right OR simply tells me not to tell him what to do.

 

My last episode where I became similar was years ago, likely 4 years ago when I was on a med called Risperadol and it caused me to hallucinate. She "almost" left then....and he had the two of us come in and he convinced me it wasn't real....then she gave me another chance.

 

The worst part of the entire thing is I cannot go back in time and change my decision to go on meds that cause such traumatic things. It is THIS reason of a few that my wife said she doesn't want to try again....she once a long time back (3 months ago) said that "sure, you'll be fine for 2 years, then all the bull**** will start again"...

 

 

I sure hope she is on my insurance, I'm gonna call at 9am to see.....what county is Seilinsgrove in?

 

bob

[jmargel]

Selinsgrove is in Snyder County, I don't believe the councilor will try to persuade her into coming to counciling with you. Not sure what she might do in that case, maybe perhaps see you first. Our first session was 1 1/2 hours, now it's down to about an hour. It's good that she trusts a councilor, the only problem there is he is so far away. When you only go there once in a great while, it doesn't do much help (for her). She has to realize counciling isn't suppose to be a 'bitch' session about the other. Its about finding out where you misunderstand, and miscommunicating between each other and find ways to solve it.

 

It really sounds like she does need someone to talk to. She probably has no one that is objective. I believe she has alot of issues and alot she needs to talk about. Try to remember, you have a councilor she has no one.

[Poconobob]

Originally posted by jmargel

Selinsgrove is in Snyder County, I don't believe the councilor will try to persuade her into coming to counciling with you. Not sure what she might do in that case, maybe perhaps see you first. Our first session was 1 1/2 hours, now it's down to about an hour. It's good that she trusts a councilor, the only problem there is he is so far away. When you only go there once in a great while, it doesn't do much help (for her). She has to realize counciling isn't suppose to be a 'bitch' session about the other. Its about finding out where you misunderstand, and miscommunicating between each other and find ways to solve it.

 

It really sounds like she does need someone to talk to. She probably has no one that is objective. I believe she has alot of issues and alot she needs to talk about. Try to remember, you have a councilor she has no one.

 

Thanks, I'll see if they are in "network" and I've already left her a message on her answering machine as well as I've called the local Catholic Social Services as they do have therapy as well.

 

I know she has nobody to talk about her issues to.....she is the "typical" person in the medical field, often they are the last to have things checked for themselves. Even after our car accident she didn't go to physical therapy even though she was in some pain and had headaches.

 

My wife I KNOW has issues that she is working out all on her own OR talking with her mother. Her mom does not believe in divorce YET of all her 4 elder brothers, all except one have divorced multiple times....and so her mom is like saying to her it isn't what she believes but if it makes her happier to divorce, go ahead and do so. That is like a dagger in the back from her mother whom I've HELPED and SUPPORTED in more ways than any of her brother's have ever done. Through the loss of her leg to diabetes, and heart problems, and even helping fix her house, I've been there for her mom and this is the way she returns the favor?? Her mother says I'm like a son more than a son in law....I know, I know....she has to support her daughter but she should keep her trap shut unless it is something that is her business and it isn't. I don't go having my mother tell me it is okay to do this and that, I leave it up to the doctor/therapist/Psychologist....Sure, my mother, like her's is there for her .... but MINE says "save the marriage"....and literally other than telling me that she is kind of pissed at how my wife is treating me says that I have to let change happen.

 

I guess the hardest part of change is realizing that our marriage will never be the same even if we worked things out....that the old marriage has died and I'll tell you a couple things she has said to me. My wife said we're like her mother with diabetes, she lost her leg and IT CANNOT grow back and she feels like it can never be a marriage that can grow back a leg. Something else she said when she was venting was that she feels a part of her has been in mourning the death as in mourning the death of a loved one.....that she feels like that is our marriage, the mourning of the death. Again, that was a few weeks ago....

 

The very reason my doctor won't call her is the same reason I have a counselor....because he says she can contact him ANYTIME via email and phone. I tell you, she is one stubborn person my wife.....

Once she gets something or a feeling in her head, there is no changing it....

 

 

So, the brushing her hair back and rubbing her shoulder works, I'll once in a while do that for a while.....and see how it goes.

 

Next week, my wife has a business trip to Harrisburg....I've had some small off and on thoughts of whether her boss is going or not and IF this whole thing of her not telling me will replay again. I know she tells me she didn't tell me because I was not thinking clearly but NOW there would be no excuse at all. Her business trip this time is to learn how to run the hearing tests done on a machine and there is no reason the Human Resources Mgr would have to go to that.

(should I "ask" if she is going by herself? before, she said no she was going all by herself but for good reason and this time, there would be no reason for her not to tell me)

 

She did take a trip in between this one and the last and I did check to see if her boss was at work and he was....However it was for an audit, not a "trip" of training. See, it isn't HER necessarily which I have distain for, it is the fact I guess I'm insecure myself..., right? I'm hurt still about her telling me a lie, then packing lacy undies and high white heels. You cannot imagine the fury I had... I just cannot think of anything I'd do if she replays the same identical circumstance. I hope that made sense?...? The whole thing before while I was on Morphine was like a nightmare come true.

 

It is all about trust and in my opinion HONESTY, I've never nor would I ever lie but then again, she has never been on morphine, huh. The episode where I found out only after she hit the road to Annapolis with him pissed me off so so so bad, it did place doubt for months on her fidelity yet again I have no proof. Did I tell you I called her cell phone like 20 times and left messages. I also called her hotel room and voice mail was on at 4 am....and I have very cloudy rememberances of the messages I left. She said they were like, WHERE ARE YOU, WITH HIM, WE'RE DONE, ETC... The one thing I cannot handle is infidelity, no way, no how....

 

Next week, the plan is to NOT even call her boss's work # to check whether or not he is working and to trust her and not call her cell phone and trust she'll make a competent decision and to TELL me in advance. I hope she knows better this time that the last time it was better to tell me than what happened before.

 

bob

[jmargel]

Bob,

 

First off, with her and the lacy underwear and the high heels doesn't mean she's cheating. Women like to just 'feel' sexy even though no man might even see their underwear. My fiancee dresses up to the nine's for work, yet everyone else just wears normal business attire. She loves dressing up and sure it'll attract the men, but she's not doing it for that. She does it because it makes her feel good. That's it. Just like when you do certain things that make you feel good.

 

Calling her at 4am, she was probably asleep. Calling her 20 times would annoy anybody and she probably turned the ringer off. How would you feel is someone kept harassing you for no apparent reason? Usually when one mate feels like the relationship is ending or something is wrong, they grab onto their mate harder. Like you did. Remember that song from .38 special 'Hold on loosely, but don't let go'. Listen to it. Of course that would drive her away. You calling, you not trusting, you telling her it's over.

 

When my relationship was going sour with my ex-fiancee I would become controlling in some ways. She was going to college at the time but lived with me. Towards the end I would say stuff like 'How come so much makeup? Or why are you wearing such a tight shirt?' Now for us men, those comments from a woman wouldn't bother us much, but to women it does a great deal. Insecurity can manifest itself very fast into a controlling behavior. You really need to think about things before acting. Doing so after the fact won't do you much good.

 

As for her mom, you have to keep her out of the picture. This issue is between the two of you. She is going to side with her, because she wants the best for her. Whether that be working it out with you, or divorcing. Getting other people into the mix besides the councilor will only make things worse. When people come to me for advice on broken relationships, one thing I do tell them is to never bring their friends into it. Everything that should be said should only be said by the couple involved, directly to each other.

 

I'm glad you called Carolyn, there are never any guarantees in anything, and she won't tell you to either keep the marriage or divorce. What she will do is get to the root of the problems and make both of you deal with them. She'll take what you say and rehash it so your wife understands what you are trying to get at without her getting defensive. She'll also be able over time, to get her to open up to you more. Sounds like she hasn't been doing that.

 

You won't get this settled in a week, so it is a long process. And to say your marriage in the past can never come back, isn't necessarily true. You both can very well overcome this, and years later laugh about some of things, but more importantly learn what was done right and wrong. If you two have a love strong enough, you two will overcome this.

[Poconobob]

I called and left word this morning for Carolyn to call and nothing yet...perhaps she is off or busy.

 

And I totally agree with you on the cheating thing; I was way way out there because we'd already had some problems as with my prescription morphine. I know she was so so so pissed because she let me go through some serious withdrawals all alone. I cannot emphasize how bad the withdrawals were and the jerking, shaking, and all was exactly like drug addicts go through BUT I stopped not because of any other reason than I knew that if I didn't I'd be DONE for good.

 

Since then, I have pulled back to my ole' self...except for being very open to her criticism and me taking it then not saying something back. If only I could have another chance.....

 

I like the way you put things with how women are and the observation(s) you've made, quite accurate. We do both agree that we love each other deeply. She told me so....she said that is the ONLY thing keeping her is that it is so hard to do it. I know I've done some bad things.....I want to take the rest of my life to make it up to her. She and I were way too codependent on each other for one thing....secondly, we still are "best friends" oddly enough...and we're still communicating as far as she tells me her stuff such as how her day was, how she feels, how messed up her periods were, and right now, the only thing "missing" is TLC .... we don't touch. Neither of us knows what to do at this point. I can actually see her looking at me as if she is wanting to but doesn't.....and I on the other hand am the same way. She is stubborn, I mean stubborn and ya know how couples communicate....openly, fairly, understandingly, well I WAS that way and she with me. We told each other such intimate details of ourselves that nobody else knows.....and it was common to do so. Hence, we are like fish out of water right now....

By the way, her hormones are good, she says she feels much better, much much better.....I'd like to think that in the coming weeks especially after I don't obsess on her trip which I'm not, that things will improve.

 

I know things aren't all my fault nor hers.....it is a life lesson for me and not knowing on her side that has me so f'd up. You cannot imagine, well perhaps you can....you can imagine KNOWING now what I did and how pissed off she was that caused such a rift.

I wonder why she weeks ago was saying divorce then I said okay....then she changed it to separation, then changed it to me leaving for a few weeks again then now nothing??? She has not said a peep about any separation, about anything and has again talked to me once again like we used to chat....the aformentioned about how her day was, what is going on in her life, etc......but no mention, nothing of a hint or anything more about divorce or separation. Like I said, she HAD been sleeping off and on in the spare bedroom and would hide when I walked in the bedroom and she was changing but now undresses right in front of me.....ARGGGG

THAT drives me nuts....but in a good way.

 

With that calling crap, I realized the next day what I'd done and that was the exact day I pulled off the patch of morphine at the doctor's office. I was out of touch with reality AND with everything...even my own life, I concluded that at that point all I knew was I wanted to live and nothing more....IT was that bad. However, I must once again accept what I did because for her, it was all too real.....for me a nightmare come true. And I reiterate she let me sit and die in agony for 2 weeks of utter hell coming off those patches. I knew then that I was screwed....

 

Well, it is pouring rain and I had better do finish my housework and prep the kitchen for dinner and fold laundry before she gets home. I've made every effort to make home life as comfy as it can be.

 

You take care, and once again, thank you from the depths of my heart. I can't thank you enough....Also, I know you said you aren't a doctor nor a counselor but you've missed your calling.

 

bob

[Poconobob]

This a.m....our son had a bad headache and my wife walked into the kitchen where I was talking about him, he was whining....(he uses a headache excuse LOTS on Friday mornings to get out of school), anyway, I made a pucker as if awww and she took it as my wanting a kiss. She said ''DON'T'' and I said "what?", she said "you know what" and I said I wasn't trying to kiss you...

 

Man, talk about touchy.....anyway, should I just blow that off or what? Is that something I need to infer as it will NEVER work out? Or is she just not to the point of kissing me and is still stand offish as in I need to still back off. I've backed off and this was innocent, totally innocent!

 

I know I tend to take things the wrong way when it may have been something like it is too soon OR should I take it any other way???

 

Again, other than that like I said, there is nothing we're "fighting" over....

 

IF there is something to work towards, I'm able to cope forever if need be.

 

BTW, I spoke to my Psychologist, he and I had a very candid talk on his "only" counseling me. My insurance will only pay for one therapist and I either have to change to Carolyn or keep him. He REALLY helps me Psychologically....but not with my marriage thus far. Anyway, the conversation included my asking "when" should I put or should I say pose the question of where our marriage is and his response was "give it time Bob, give it time...STOP worrying what is going on and be yourself" and to the question I posed about having a marriage counselor, his reply was "BOB, what did I tell you"....I said NOW isn't the time, that all has to go on the "wait and see" and so long as things are tranquil, "she is not prepared to discuss things yet"....I told you it will be at LEAST 6 months and I know what I'm doing so don't question my method.

 

So here I sit, I'm wanting to make a decision....however, Psychologically speaking, I need him for making me stay on track for ME, not her.

 

Thanks in advance....and by the way, she called but I was out on my first day as a volunteer at a local place where advocates for the disabled are and I did some work for them yesterday.

 

bob

[jmargel]

Hi Bob,

 

As to where you should go, do you see yourself progressing with your psychologist? I think perhaps you and Carolyn need to discuss this. She'll give you an honest answer.

 

As for the kiss thing, don't worry about it. It was just her way of saying 'not yet'. If her reaction was that strong, then you know that you still have awhile to go yet. You also have to determine how much energy you want to put into this, knowing that there are other women out there that will give you the affection, the attention without having to fight for it. At some point she needs to realize that 'Yes, I was hurt, he's changing, I need to forgive and move on with him the right way'. You know as well as I do that this continuing on for years will not happen. It some ways she is hurt, but some ways it may feel like she is paying you back. That could be a case for both.

 

This is going to be a day-to-day thing and you have to realize that. You also have to realize that you can't look too much into everything she says and does. That will drive you nuts. You just need to continue to be yourself. But I still highly recommend that she gets the help and advice she needs.

[Poconobob]

Well, she called me.....and by the way REALLY wanted to know who referred her as she was honored! So you might wanna give her a call at home and tell her. Anyway, her advice was: Sounds like your doctor is giving you good advice and that I should stay with his advice, it has only been 3 months and THAT is a very short period of time even though it may not seem like it, it is. Furthermore, she could see me on an individual basis yet feels since I am already established and also that he is giving VERY good advice to follow the path of "showing change" and not saying change that she doesn't know if she could be of further help. (perhaps you could enlighten her??) anyway, IF she decides to have counseling together, then and only then would she be able to see me/her....as she won't do individual AND marriage as it is too one sided and biased based. She said OFTEN, things have to be good for a long, long time before the beginning of repair begins.....in other words, she has to first be pissed, then when being actively pissed off ends, only then does the "timer" start on repair. She very well could be in the phase of still being hurt and pissed off since I told her the last fight so to speak was a month ago....to that, she said again, time has to pass, showing her I'm back to being a trust worthy and worthy person for her to live with on an ongoing basis will only then allow her mind to open for "other" ideas.

 

She was pretty much on par with your saying don't let things bother you.......and stay the course of being normal, of being the person she wants me to be, not what I want, I want, I want type situation, give her the space to open up. She may never open up and talk about it as she has said her piece.....and she and I both know the situation so why would she ever want to talk once again about a moot subject other than when she is ready to perhaps talk about the future.

 

I think I'd really like to see her individually IF she thinks I can benefit. Not necessarily for marriage counseling as she said, unless my wife is "into it" you cannot trick her into coming in to talk about ME and then backdoor her with talking about the marriage. Again, the marriage and all her cards were already left laying on the table and I know what her shared feelings are already, and again, she was not "shocked" by my saying it has been 3 months because OFTEN it takes a long, long time in delicate situations.

 

So here I am, as much as I wanna admit it, I have issues.....which I must accept based on both her and my Psychologist tell me, WORK ON MYSELF, work on self improvement, and let the cards on the table fall where they do.

 

---In reply to what you advised, YOU once again are right now that I think about it. I am not over the "let it go" part yet, I think things too deeply and it is a fault I have to work on. Sure, we all know it won't go on and on for years but I also know that I can stay in it for the long haul so long as she doesn't break up the marriage, I certainly won't either. I placed the situation in her lap at my Psychologist's advice by telling her to move out, divorce, do whatever SHE WANTS....and he said last night when he called me that the only way she will come back into the marriage is once she sorts things out and nobody is going to "tell her" at this point what to do and therefore, his advice is to stop obsessing on my hard headed bull**** and instead make myself "look good" to her.....He said, he wants me to change everything over time, not just my social outlook on our marriage but also change my looks, get a different hair style, wear and appear somewhat different, take a new outlook on life, and I'd be surprised how losing weight, looking "good" to her would bring back the "heat" of why she married me in the first place other than my "wonderful" personality, lol. He said last night that Psychology is his venue, not mine and don't take things so literally.....but, if one of my goals is to take off 30 lbs which I gained because of (Zyprexa---weight gain is a HUGE side effect which slows metabolism GREATLY)..which I just got a new drug instead of Zyprexa so I won't gain weight and can burn more as my metabolism gets back to normal.

I got a lecture last evening from him on self improvement stratedgy....He said, even changing glasses, changing the picture she has in her mind of the "old" bob can be important...Stop wearing the "given up on myself clothes like sweats, stretchie pants/shorts, wear Izod shorts, look handsome.....

 

So what do ya think? Once again, you've pegged me....I need to find your hourly rates! I appreciate it, I really do, sometimes just venting here and seeing your replies has helped me to stay on track. By the way, with the one drug I was on stopped and this new one started, I'm ironically feeling outstanding, it not only is for mood but also helps with pain .... headache pain... The med also is for irrational thoughts....for making clear decisions and to stop scattered thinking.

 

Any ideas? I see why you speak so highly of Carolyn, SHE is really, really a nice person, and knows her stuff....

 

bob

[jmargel]

Hi Bob,

 

Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad I have been a help to you. Carolyn has been a godsent to us and I personally find it easier talking to a female (so does my fiancee) than a male. She's made me understand my fiancee better, and what I should and should not do. It's amazing how the little things that are said and done can make such a difference.

 

And no you don't want to trick your wife into seeing a councilor. When she is ready to goto one she needs to go with a 'wanting' to go. Because you have to prepare yourself to hear things that you might not agree with or get upset over. But to know that this advice is going to help you in the long run with your relationship.

 

As for changing your looks, yea a nice outfit or two would be catching to her eye. I mean you like when she dresses up & looks good, so why not do it for her? Also you do feel better about yourself when you do that. I wouldn't change everything at once, since that would probably be a little weird to her.

 

You have to remember, a person can only be mad or angry for so long. Right now she is still confused and obviously hurt. I just wish her stuborness wasn't so great that she's not willing to see a councilor. Have you asked her about seeing a marriage councilor? Just ask her the question, if she gets upset just let it drop & don't take it to heart. Have you mentioned that you now have a new outlook on life? That you are changing not only for yourself but for the both of you. It wouldn't hurt to say that the next time you have a heart to heart with her. But it's all about timing, you have to find the right time to say something like that. Saying it out of the blue won't mean much.

 

Another thing I thought of about the physical thing. A couple can talk and talk forever, but sometimes the one can say most without speaking a word. Playing with her hair is fine, but if you want some interaction without being obivious, while she is sleeping or going to sleep, just have your foot touching hers. It's a way of you saying 'Im here' without having to say it, or make her feel guarded if you are going to pursue something more than she is ready for.

 

Glad the new medication is working, sounds like things have been going pretty good.

[Poconobob]

I've asked her to see a counselor before and it was a definite NO, as was the reply followed by I'm over it...and I don't know if I want to try anymore. That was both months and months ago as well as about a month ago when she'd said she wanted a divorce, then after further discussion after she brought up the question of if I've thought about it, and my subsequent reply, YES, then came my reply .. That reply consisted of telling her it isn't as simple as the bills, there is the issue of my not having insurance anymore, my not being able to have my doc anymore, and my having to stop medication as I would not be able to afford it. On and on I went about those things as well as things she would not have .... she cried then said she wanted a separation as I've said before, then said she wanted ME to move out as in see relatives a couple weeks at a time ....

Over the past weeks, I can tell she is frightened and confused, she definitely is in a struggle with her feelings versus her heart yet she "says" it isn't that, but rather her "lifestyle" change.....obviously our combined incomes equate to a very comfortable lifestyle but her single income wouldn't. Again, I reiterate, her last "wishes" were to have me see various relatives for a time....to leave because she doesn't want to have to go get an apartment, sign a lease, obtain all the security deposits, etc. What baffles me is she ISN'T wanting to do the apartment yet she wanted a separation?? If someone truly truly wants out, they'll find a way, or so I'm told and IF someone wants a divorce, I've assumed, they don't care about anything but being out.

 

I tell you, I was a not thinking as an optimist before, I was very much the opposite, the poor me, poor me.....and I found it didn't get me anywhere. Now, even if I'm unhappy, I smile, try to joke around....by heart I am a prankster and have not been my ole' self. I was told that that crap I was on would leave you with the very empty hole as if a loved one passed... She had once said in a deep talk that our marriage is like the mourning of a loved one and something died between us....it isn't easy to describe.

 

Last time we had marriage problems, the "excuse" to have us stay together was she changed jobs and couldn't make too many changes at once.

 

I realize a person can only stay mad for so long.....I also realize she is stubborn beyond imagination, and that she has told me she has the newly found "freedom" of the fact she can do anything, call it independent.

Obviously she is still mad.....but it isn't just the last incident, she has not been happy for a while....

 

When we spoke at length about divorce, I told her I needed to teach her some things that I always have done such as I wanted to show her where to check oil, how often, and things like that and she began to cry and I almost saw her reach to me. Instead she recoiled and said that this isn't easy.....(break up) and I said then don't .... and her reply was "but I'm just not happy and I have not been happy for a long time and if you do think so then you are living in a dream.... Yet, I'd love to email you a picture I took when we built our house where in the mud she wrote Cathy loves Bob. And in some 1000 pictures on our digital camera, all show her smiling, in fact at XMAS, she said this was the best Xmas ever.... You see, she is in love right now with emotions, not me...My doctor told me that and as long as she is in that state, there is no barrier I can break down. That there is really noting I can do but show I'm understanding, will cooperate, will not tell her she is wrong, don't interrupt, and let her have space. EVERYBODY says don't you dare leave the house right now for a vacation/trip/visit.....stay put, let her continue to see Bob as he is now because perhaps she is thinking that if I leave she can cut the mixed up self....and to turn back again to recall the reason she wants space as in divorce. That she is seeing but doesn't want to believe it...that I'm not fussing, not complaining, not any of the things that she held as merit to say that I have certain faults. I know everybody has faults but she no longer is able to even find them as one by one, issue by issue, I've adapted to her thinking, to her every objection and her every gripe.

 

bob

[jmargel]

Bob from your post, it could be that she also has a form of depression. Is she not happy with life in general as well? Even in good relationships people can become depressed. It could be a mixture of the marriage and life in general. Maybe what she needs is for some space. A couple of days/weeks without seeing you. It might show her how important you really are to her. I wouldn't say go on a vacation somewhere, but goto your mom's place for a week and not have any contact with her. Only do this if she wants this. By giving her this time what you really are showing is respect, and she'll appreciate you more for that.

 

When she asked for a divorced, it sounded like she said it in anger, but then you also tried to scare her into not divorcing. That isn't right. You have to think to yourself, is it more important for her to be happy and not with you, or to be with you & not happy? I'm not saying it's either or, but if this possibility comes up. When you talk to her about these issues, be direct. Keep the questions short & to the point. Ask her what you can do to help heal this relationship. If she says the relationship 'died', then ask what can you do to revive it?

 

I know it's hard to give space to someone who's pulling away emotionally. Your natural instincts are to chase & try to fix the hurt. Until she gets the help she needs, I don't know how far this is going to go just by you 'changing'. She needs some sort of an outlet so she can feel understood & validated. That's why I've been hoping she would goto a councilor or at least talk to me about it.

[Poconobob]

Originally posted by jmargel

Bob from your post, it could be that she also has a form of depression. Is she not happy with life in general as well? Even in good relationships people can become depressed. It could be a mixture of the marriage and life in general. Maybe what she needs is for some space. A couple of days/weeks without seeing you. It might show her how important you really are to her. I wouldn't say go on a vacation somewhere, but goto your mom's place for a week and not have any contact with her. Only do this if she wants this. By giving her this time what you really are showing is respect, and she'll appreciate you more for that.

 

When she asked for a divorced, it sounded like she said it in anger, but then you also tried to scare her into not divorcing. That isn't right. You have to think to yourself, is it more important for her to be happy and not with you, or to be with you & not happy? I'm not saying it's either or, but if this possibility comes up. When you talk to her about these issues, be direct. Keep the questions short & to the point. Ask her what you can do to help heal this relationship. If she says the relationship 'died', then ask what can you do to revive it?

 

I know it's hard to give space to someone who's pulling away emotionally. Your natural instincts are to chase & try to fix the hurt. Until she gets the help she needs, I don't know how far this is going to go just by you 'changing'. She needs some sort of an outlet so she can feel understood & validated. That's why I've been hoping she would goto a councilor or at least talk to me about it.

 

Hi...

No, she is not seemingly happy with life itself....She has no friends outside work, we moved and before this tiresome job, she was hating the jobs and has admitted it to be a mistake moving away from friends in Florida where she had MANY, many friends as did I. Up here where I essentially grew up was supposed to be a move for us to build our dream house, to have 4 seasons (yes, florida does get old with 1 season) and to be out of the city. My doctor told us BOTH that moving up here would be a mistake but we "thought" that was what we wanted, THOUGHT. Now here we are, her only friends are MY friends, she has only made friends at this management job she has. I believe DEEPLY that there is a root element to this problem right here. Imagine your only friend and confidant is your hubby who got hooked on prescription pain meds which you said in the first place never to take, then...saw a decline in his entire social structure in that I didn't venture out, I stayed at home, I did NOTHING, I was totally numb to life....meanwhile you are burdened with being the bill payer, housekeeper, everything.....and couldn't do anything but go "shop" for enjoyment.

I would sell this house, move to anywhere, even back to Florida....ANYTHING but I believe she is all caught up in her making great strides in her professional life which she never has experienced before and now totally devotes all to work.....and I might add, does not sufficiently care for our son. As "he" puts it, mom is just a mom now and works all the time and isn't my friend anymore. I lecture and lecture and lecture until blue in the face that she has a career and that he needs to be supportive of her and HE isn't a parent so don't try to wedge himself in between us or take sides no matter what OR ELSE....

Now, I mentioned she had to go back on birth control pills due to her hormones and periods being WAY OUT of wack....which by the way, I feel she is less emotional now than before. Could be "the change" as her mom did at 38 just similar to how she is now.

I cannot leave once again, I left once while she was pissed, I left the second week after the fall out...that was months ago. She said she enjoyed it when I was gone and she appreciated being able to go to the store without having to tell anyone what time she'd be home...THAT was one thing I stopped completely, I don't even ask....BEFORE, I would ask if the weather was bad or if she was at work what time she would be home....not controlling, more concerned than anything. I took her to work in storms, I was asked to by the way....

As for leaving again, I was advised not to by all....my doctor, by Carolyn, by my parents.........they said I won't do any good leaving again. I know it is a respect thing but I don't want to go to serve her, I found out what it is like alone as I was alone for two weeks, she rather would be in her comfort zone so it would be easy not to miss me as it would to be in a room all by herself and away from home. Again, I would go but not right now, besides, she has not mentioned it in 3 weeks....and especially I want to point out that it was before a trip she took within the past 3 weeks to her mom's house in Ohio. She during that time CALLED AND CALLED AND CALLED me....see, weird huh....she'd call with nothing to say except what am I doing....

 

The divorce thing, DEFINITELY in anger, hence the reason my doctor told me to steer clear of arguements or when she is in a foul mood....but she has not been this way since going on the pill.....and she has been nicer.

As a matter of fact, she called just a while ago and asked if we were going to my friend's house for us to have some beer and of course pizza....then Sunday, she is going with me to Philly as I'm going to be in a car race event sponsored by Mazda...and she is going shopping with my friend's wife which she NEVER has done at all so that should be a good bonding experience. FYI, his wife works nights and has a rigorous schedule also...

 

Now I'm advised to sit tight on bringing up relationship questions and continue to work on myself......I agree with you that it has to be discussed but my doc says her emotions are steering her right now and it would only have her tell me things which are hurtful as if she is still angry then that will be her focus, not repair. I'd asked what I could do to change, what I could do to better our relationship and she said....."I don't know".

 

My telling her things additionally in divorce was what I was told to do by my doc.....it came out as harsh one sided ploys by me because to type it out would have been a MAJOR post and you know I can make some doozie long posts..lol.. but seriously, it wasn't like the bang, bang, bang...here is what else would go down, they were in the midst of a couple conversations, not a rapid fire, let me tell you something type thing. And again, that was weeks and weeks and weeks ago.

Yep, my instincts "were exactly that" chasing and try to fix......to say constantly "but I love you" ...."gimme another chance" etc...and what that does is exactly as you say, it causes them to pull away farther, it was when I stopped that ...exactly then that I stopped giving her a kiss on the lips because she didn't like that and felt comfortable not doing so as she was/is pissed or emotionally drained.

Validating....I agree totally, I should shut up and put up with her voice telling things such as her feelings, not interrupting her with a "but" in the midst of her statements, listening, and understanding. I've done so....I've seen it help.

Things are about as good as they have been thus far, we have not retrogressed as far as I can see...there are positives. She now sleeps in bed 100%, she smacks me on the behind if I walk passed, she really likes the way I'm acting, she likes that I'm volunteering, we talk again about her work, about lots of things, even talk again about her personal stuff like her periods, intimate yet delicate conversations about other stuff....and I've become a better listener.

 

If you ever want to know more on the "therapy" I'm getting, look up Alan Beck, Beck Institute...it is called Cognitive Therapy, that is what I'm being taught and more by my doctor.

 

I've hoped she would go to a counselor.....it is hard, hard..and she has no idea I'm using the internet because she isn't into the net like me. I've really found it to be a good tool, especially since meeting you, once again, thanks! However, tell me, what could I do to have her at least talk to you about it? I have her work email and phone....I just don't know how to even broche the subject or if calling her would be a good idea or emailing or what.... I know she trusts opinions of friends of mine as believe it or not, I'm articulate to a point, we're well educated, I'm just faced with the hardest period of my life after making a mistake or two or ten.

Perhaps she is getting bad advice from someone at work? My doctor played devils advocate and said that....but he said he won't call her because of obvious reasons I've said before. She would talk to friends of mine who call to be concerned about me but that is in my opinion about it. I don't know like I said how to even get a counselor involved or you contacted. ANY ideas??? I'd be up for anything...

 

Respectfully,

 

bob

[jmargel]

Hi Bob,

 

Sounds like things have progressed for a 3 month period. So when you get discouraged or frustrated, look back on where things were 3 months ago, and where it's at today. If you wanted me to talk to her, I would email her. I think by talking to her on the phone would freak her out, plus my fiancee might think something was up.. lol..

 

Anyway, I would suggest to her that you have a friend who's been in a similar situation and if she wanted to hear my story & talk about things to contact me. Or if she would like for me to contact her, I would.

 

I'm not a doctor and won't pretend to be one, but what I could do is let her talk to me, who's not directly or indirectly in your situation.

[Poconobob]

Ya, I have yet another line to tow...a very long line at that. I won't go into details but I was in the hospital...and ya it sucked. The airbag caught me on the chin and I was blacked out for about 10 seconds therefore, I was immediatly made to stay a couple days in the hospital, aka IMO, the clink. I felt like I was in prison... And ya know what, my wife "thought" I did it on purpose to get pity or attempt to kill myself as I'd said something about ending my life a while back by vehicle. However, do note, I did not, do not, will not stoop to such a level as I'm not cloudy anymore, not stupid, and stronger than that!

Oh, also note, her friggen boss told her, "ya, I saw your car racing all over town once"...damn, I don't do that! Sure it is a sports car, sure it is a damn car able to do that BUT, I'm way, way, way too picky about maintenance, keeping it PERFECT to go run the ass out of it. Besides, there are other cars of the same color! All "he" was doing was putting that seed in her head, and damn did it make me angry. My wife even told the doctor that I "might have" wanted to end my life this way. Man....first, I was taking my son to school so (a)--I wouldn't involve him, (b)--there was another car involved and I'd NEVER engage in such a low act as to not only mess up my family but another innocent party! ©--well, I had my gym bag in the car with the intent to go to the gym after the drop off of our son so the "intent" was never there. I wouldn't have packed a gym bag, put it in the car, etc...had I wanted to do that!

 

Ok, fast foreward ... She had to take a trip, this trip was to Harrisburg, SHE wouldn't tell our son where she was, wouldn't tell US anything. Not that I care as I understood the reason why but man....there is no trust on her part.

 

Last evening, we all went out, all was fine, all was happy until we were in bed, I was brushing my teeth and went into the closet to find my belt as our friend is having their baby baptised Sunday, on the way, vigorously brushing my teeth...(I walk around while I brush, this is normal, I don't stand at the sink as I brush for a long time)...anyway, I elbowed her stupid rack where she dries her clothes (undergarments that were washed)...and she said really pissy; did you find what you were looking for? I said ya, I wanted to find my belt...then she said no I mean what underwear I have drying. Sheesh, wtf would I care what she has drying...??? I was angry, I was still pissed about her accusing me of attempting to kill myself, pissed at the very notion she'd think all that....and I unloaded a few of my own. I told her she has attacked me, tried to push and push and push me all around and I'm not up for it. I no longer feel like the weak little lamb that she can pick on.

She said, I want to separate....(here we go again)....whenever pissed, she does this!

 

I know I should have walked away but I had some things which had me in lots of toil that I held inside for months...and I spoke, told how I felt like she cannot let anything go, how she is now untrusting of me, and how I'm under the constant thumbnail.

 

She was then saying, "I'll wait until our son goes to florida"...then said so who goes, you or me....I said YOU, I'm not leaving. She said all I want is a bed and dresser and tv....

 

I'll send you her email at work....the one here would be far less personal. I'll tell you now, she is stubborn, bad stubborn...

 

I'll leave it up to you telling her how you know me; I don't want to lie, nor deepen my predicament. How you broche the subject is up to you. You can tell her you are acquainted with my doctor's philosophy, that is Dr. Boutin, or know of him from me and we've discussed helping me deal with this chapter of my life.

Make sure you tell her that you aren't there to change her mind but to maybe help her.

The association we have is you are a mentor that we've chatted and I was told to make friends. she knows I volunteer recently at the disabled folks place and that I've seeked out therapy from an institute and honestly that is how I found this site was while searching for a therapist in Pa.

 

Again, I'll message you the work email....

 

bob

[Poconobob]

That evening came, my wife came home in a fairly good mood, we went out to dinner, came home, got dressed for bed, and I was brushing my teeth.....normal, huh....anyway, my "habit" is to walk around while brushing and I went to the walkin closet to find a belt which I couldn't find for a baptism as I put in the previous post...

Anyway, Sunday rolls around and she was painting the bathroom and said.....I'm going to rent a condo perhaps for like 800.00 a month and I need to know if we can afford that. I said, honestly NO....by the time you add that and all utilities and essentially separate our income, we're both screwed. She cried and said, "I can't take it"....I'll have to live like this forever....To that I replied that I already contacted a real estate agent and we'd sell the house and until then she'd either have to lower her standards or wait it out here...BOOM, she exploded and said she should have left my ass ever so long ago. I escaped the conversation, let her paint and cry....Later on, she said we can cope until then and sell the house and split up for an undetermined amount of time. Undetermined amount of time is the key...Anyway, long story short, she later said.......I don't want a divorce, I want to separate for a while and see how we both feel.

 

My parents say, STAY PUT, my psychologist says, come to florida, give her a month without me and work on myself. That would be "good" for the both of us for me to be gone OUT of the picture at this point. I just spoke with him this morning before posting this. Prior to this new event, he had said to stay the course and don't leave but now he feels she needs space and putting the house on the market will not necessarily mean an end to a relationship but it could give her time to think about not having her home, uncertainty, etc....

 

I told her a mentor would be emailing her, don't know if she listened but I'd told her. She says NOW, to the question of a counselor, "I don't know"....I said, I knew you'd say that and she said; "I didn't say NO", "I said I don't know."

 

Our lives are so so so intertwined after all these years, we both agree we don't want to date anyone else, just have time apart.

 

I sent you the email address via personal message...

 

I feel that she is gunshy of me, still not trusting that I actually have changed from being paranoid, from being controlling, from all that stuff......I have, that is the truth, I allowed myself while on pain meds to dive into a real mess, to only be happy when she is happy, to only worry about my family and ignore the rest.

She also said that she never has liked the big mtg payment, that getting out from under it would be a good start, and being able to relax....

 

I'm so confused....bad confused....

 

bob

[jmargel]

Hi Bob,

 

I emailed her. But I told her in the email, if she were to reply to me that it would only be between me & her. I know you probably would want to read what she wrote but you have to give me a chance to see what she is really going through.

 

Sounds like she still has alot of anger in her and nowhere to vent. Maybe she can vent to me which might make things easier for you. As for defusing this bomb that was created this weekend. Don't bring it up anymore. Pretend like she didn't say anything. If she brings it up, tell her you just don't feel like talking about it now. How long has she been feeling neglected? Either she is over-reacting or really hurt. I'm hoping she'll write back to figure out what's going on.

 

I'm sorry about your accident, and I believe you that it was just that. Your wife can't assume that who-ever your boss saw was you driving at a fast speed. That's something I will talk to her about. You also have to realize anytime you explode in front of her, it puts you back to the spot you were before. To her you take huge steps back when this happens. Trying to improve your image to her is a very long process. Each step forward takes weeks or months, yet to take a step back could be as easy as yelling once or twice. I would think that would be very frustrating for you. And not to look bad on any of the other women here, but it could be that time of the month for her. I know my fiancee can get pretty touchy the week before.

 

Hang in there..