Author NickFeek Posted November 11, 2011 Author Posted November 11, 2011 You are both coming to the table...it's a screwed up world when that happens...because now you see how SHE sees you and how YOU see her...that is what you are both running from. When you say things like "You have never shown much remorse for what you did," it really hurts your credibility. A. You have no idea how much remorse I've shown; and B. I have nevertheless tried to convey to everyone here how horrible I feel about all this, how sorry & regretful I am. I have cried over it with my wife. I have said & felt all I can with her to let her know how sorry I am. So please don't go overboard trying to state your case. And really, you think because I call you biased & misinformed that I'm ignoring all advice I don't want to hear? Then once again I say you have not been reading this post. I take all advice to heart. I have tried so many things. I have made more of an effort than anyone here can understand. This is another example of you pushing the envelope of credibility, when in reality much of what you say is helpful & valid. Let me correct your last statement. I'm not running from anything. She is doing the running. I HAVE run in the past, for years & years. I ran so far I ended up cheating & lying. I own up to that. But I stopped running. I stopped being afraid to confront the real her/me/us. She is the only one running now, and based on this week I think she feels it's easier & safer & more likely to build a better future to run rather than stay & work.
Author NickFeek Posted November 11, 2011 Author Posted November 11, 2011 Nick - How much time would you say you and your wife spend together in an average week, just the two of you, no kids and nothing else to interrupt that time? I also want to thank you for sharing so much of this personal journey with us. This thread is now at 100 pages. I've been reading it since you started it months ago! We often hear marital counseling recommended for this problem or that and your posts here give us a glimpse of those people in the trenches fighting for their marriages. MC is not an easy fix to marital problems. That's very generous of you. I'm sure there are others who'd say Dear God I'm staying far away from anything that's 100+ pages! But this forum has been one of a very small handful of things that has helped me. So thank you all. In an average week, we spend 1-2 hours alone, and that's adding up all the snippets of time. There's rarely more than one large chunk.
2sunny Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 I don't see the door open - even IF it is open - I still see her road blocking any attempt to move forward. I told you early on in this thread - her inaction or actions are your best indicator. Yet here it is do or die time and she's absent from counseling - even though she knows she could make it happen if it were her TOP priority. Her actions - Sheez... You are too forgiving... In your "understanding her busy schedule" - you have become her lowest priority. Yet you stand there saying you understand... She's trained you well - you expect nothing from her and that's what she gives for effort. Even when she's faced with divorce! I know MANY CEO's and COO's that fly all over for business - when ANY problem or issue comes up at home they get their a$$ home so fast you wouldn't believe it! They cancel things to make the M and family top priority! Her value system is different than yours - she holds work higher than family. IF you can accept it- great.
Author NickFeek Posted November 11, 2011 Author Posted November 11, 2011 I don't see the door open - even IF it is open - I still see her road blocking any attempt to move forward. I told you early on in this thread - her inaction or actions are your best indicator. Yet here it is do or die time and she's absent from counseling - even though she knows she could make it happen if it were her TOP priority. Her actions - Sheez... You are too forgiving... In your "understanding her busy schedule" - you have become her lowest priority. Yet you stand there saying you understand... She's trained you well - you expect nothing from her and that's what she gives for effort. Even when she's faced with divorce! I know MANY CEO's and COO's that fly all over for business - when ANY problem or issue comes up at home they get their a$$ home so fast you wouldn't believe it! They cancel things to make the M and family top priority! Her value system is different than yours - she holds work higher than family. IF you can accept it- great. I think what's happened is that we've finally come to a point where there's literally nowhere else for her to go, and no other way for her to react than to jump in or jump off. I have spent the last few weeks giving her every courtesy & respect regarding her work, and for the most part she has come through by coming home earlier more often, attending our sessions until recently, and responding more frequently to emails & calls. But now that things have come to a head FOR HER, and things seem harder or even insurmountable, she is in the process of deciding if all this means enough for her to inconvenience her work schedule AND ESPECIALLY to put in the very difficult & painful emotional effort. As of Tuesday night & Wednesday, I would have said her answer was it's not worth it, just leave me alone. As of Wednesday night & Thursday, I would have said her answer was I'm struggling to hold on, and I'm sorry this is so hard, but I really want to give it a good try. As of last night & today, it seems like when push came to shove she was just too scared and/or too wrapped up in work to go the distance. It's up to HER now to come to me to talk, to make up for the missed session. It's up to HER now to respond to what I've said to her the last few days, and to validate or reject my intentions & love. If she comes through this weekend, and IF our conversation is fruitful - i.e. we agree on what needs work & set forth a plan of action that has an actual schedule - I will forge ahead with the work we're doing. If she avoids conversation or our talk goes in another direction, she has to accept the fact that THAT MEANS beyond a doubt she is choosing for this to be over.
2sunny Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 She's chosen with her action or lack of. You just aren't seeing her answer... Consider yourself working on this M on your own - all evidence shows she's not intending to participate as you want her to. Her INTENTIONS - that is what we talked of earlier in the week... Her answer is to"be absent" and have you live with it and be quiet!
Author NickFeek Posted November 11, 2011 Author Posted November 11, 2011 She's chosen with her action or lack of. You just aren't seeing her answer... Consider yourself working on this M on your own - all evidence shows she's not intending to participate as you want her to. Her INTENTIONS - that is what we talked of earlier in the week... Her answer is to"be absent" and have you live with it and be quiet! I do see her answer. I'm just hoping it's not her FINAL answer. She is in a place of deep anger/resentment/hurt, and struggling to see the light. I said on Tuesday night & I'll say again, if her answer this weekend is the same as it was that night - after a stretch of days when she's had time to reconsider - then I'll know it must be the final answer.
2sunny Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 I'd call your W and tell her - complete honesty will be given to the counselor today... Whether she likes it or not - hiding things from a professional trying to help you isn't working. Complete honesty! Not half, no omissions - it IS do or die time and since she chooses to be absent you are gonna do this session the right way = with your honesty.
Author NickFeek Posted November 11, 2011 Author Posted November 11, 2011 I'd call your W and tell her - complete honesty will be given to the counselor today... Whether she likes it or not - hiding things from a professional trying to help you isn't working. Complete honesty! Not half, no omissions - it IS do or die time and since she chooses to be absent you are gonna do this session the right way = with your honesty. I may very well do that. After this morning's brief argument, and a follow-up email I sent, and no response from her on either, I really feel like she's just checked out.
2sunny Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) Oh she answers Nick - you just don't see her answer! It's in her silence and avoiding! IF I were dating someone who did the ACTION part of a R the way your W does - I'd consider myself single. When one of the two doesn't intend to participate - the inactivity says it all. Open - your - eyes You expect her to be playing ball with you - but she won't even consider getting to the ball field... Much less throw the ball around. Edited November 11, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted November 11, 2011 Author Posted November 11, 2011 Oh she answers Nick - you just don't see her answer! It's in her silence and avoiding! IF I were dating someone who did the ACTION part of a R the way your W does - I'd consider myself single. When one of the two doesn't intend to participate - the inactivity says it all. Open - your - eyes You expect her to be playing ball with you - but she won't even consider getting to the ball field... Much less throw the ball around. I do see her answer. I've seen it time and again over the years. I know what her silence and inaction convey. I also know that our current circumstances are nothing like we've ever experienced, and she is in a state of depression she hasn't seen in 15 years or more. And I don't take lack of an answer for an answer. If when we talk this weekend she sticks to the answer she gave on Tuesday, then I will be satisfied.
2sunny Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 Those words Nick. Her empty words mean nothing when her actions show she isn't intending to participate - no matter how hard you force her to. Her actions are what you work from.
Author NickFeek Posted November 14, 2011 Author Posted November 14, 2011 What did the counselor suggest? We agreed that the main problem now is our inability to address anything that predates my infidelity, so our main objective should be to untangle the emotions associated with the infidelity so she's better able to process it & put it in context. As part of that, she suggested I approach her empathetically, acknowledge EVERYTHING she's feeling in relation to that, and then go on to explain why I did what I did in clearer terms than I ever have. From there, we should then discuss point by point what things we both feel need changing. And then we should set out a firm weekly schedule to change those things. I did Part One already, and for the first time it seemed like she was really listening to what I meant. I also know that it usually takes her a day or two to process hard info like that. So that was a couple of days ago. The weekend was surprisingly pleasant for all. Seems she is really rethinking things. But I also know she is going to bounce back & forth over & over, so the only true way to measure progress is to have accomplished actions & changes under our belt. That's the next talk we're having, based on that email list I sent out to her last week. And it should happen tonight or tomorrow.
2sunny Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 That's good to hear! I'm sending positive energy that she'll continue to participate and be honest with you.
Author NickFeek Posted November 14, 2011 Author Posted November 14, 2011 That's good to hear! I'm sending positive energy that she'll continue to participate and be honest with you. Thanks! I have to say even the positive stuff like this still hurts, and I think it's for two reasons. One: so much murky water under the bridge, and it makes everything feel icky. Two: I'm still not able to trust or believe that she'll go the distance, and/or what "the distance" means in terms of what will satisfy us both. But I guess that's part of the process.
2sunny Posted November 14, 2011 Posted November 14, 2011 It at hurt because you are putting yourself - once again - at the total mercy of what she IS or ISN'T going to do. But you agreed to it - so now you need to go with THAT plan. The counselor is gonna see IF she's gonna participate - with her actions - instead of running away and avoiding. Change is what we are hoping to see here. Hopefully she doesn't just stay holed up inher comfort zone = cave (work). That's the place she uses to hide away to feel safe and purposeful - but avoid what's real in her life.
Author NickFeek Posted November 14, 2011 Author Posted November 14, 2011 It at hurt because you are putting yourself - once again - at the total mercy of what she IS or ISN'T going to do. But you agreed to it - so now you need to go with THAT plan. The counselor is gonna see IF she's gonna participate - with her actions - instead of running away and avoiding. Change is what we are hoping to see here. Hopefully she doesn't just stay holed up inher comfort zone = cave (work). That's the place she uses to hide away to feel safe and purposeful - but avoid what's real in her life. That's true. I think she is good at finding a way to control the situation by keeping the ball in her court, and I enable that by throwing it back to her repeatedly. I think that second to last paragraph is the crux of everything right now. I was just telling someone that I see this as finding the answers to two questions: 1. Will she/we find a way to process & move beyond the infidelity; and 2. Once we are beyond it, will she be able to or want to do the work we need to do? At this point, as hard as it's been for her, I still think the answer to the first question is the easier one. If/when we get to a place where she can fully answer the second question, that's when it's do or die - nothing else to focus on or hide behind. And that scares me more.
2sunny Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 I think it's obvious, but necessary, to say - it doesn't seem likely she's to DO any of the change without her accountability to the counselor. Now she's missed two weeks - has she made the commitment to be sure and be present for all future appointments? This is where you'll find if she's participating - or just leaving it to you to deal with... Then finding another thing to resent you for. Either she participates (intent) or she doesn't. Which has she stated?
Author NickFeek Posted November 15, 2011 Author Posted November 15, 2011 I think it's obvious, but necessary, to say - it doesn't seem likely she's to DO any of the change without her accountability to the counselor. Now she's missed two weeks - has she made the commitment to be sure and be present for all future appointments? This is where you'll find if she's participating - or just leaving it to you to deal with... Then finding another thing to resent you for. Either she participates (intent) or she doesn't. Which has she stated? You're right, and that's why I insisted on counseling. She needs that accountability, no matter how uncomfortable. ESPECIALLY if it's uncomfortable. And that's a big do or die. She has not yet stated anything. I can't imagine after the week+ we've had that she'd ever consider ditching for a third week unless she intends to send a clear message. I have mentioned to her once that the doctor has no other open slots this week. And I mentioned to her once that we should talk again before Friday. So she is well aware I'm expecting her to go. But I'm not going to beg or push. She will have to make this decision herself. And then we'll see.
2sunny Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 No need to beg or push - its a simple yes or no answer to a basic question: counseling is this Friday at ____ time - are you planning to attend? Why wouldn't you know by now what her INTENTIONS are? She knows her schedule... Another power play. That's the way I see it - and a negative one at that. It really sucks that she can't simply allow you to understand if she intends to work at this or just plain avoid you and expect you to like things that way. Yes, I understand you have grown accustomed to her approach - but most married folks would have found this completely inadequate many years ago. If she resists now - it seems you will have your answer that she never wants to tell you.
Author NickFeek Posted November 15, 2011 Author Posted November 15, 2011 No need to beg or push - its a simple yes or no answer to a basic question: counseling is this Friday at ____ time - are you planning to attend? Why wouldn't you know by now what her INTENTIONS are? She knows her schedule... Another power play. That's the way I see it - and a negative one at that. It really sucks that she can't simply allow you to understand if she intends to work at this or just plain avoid you and expect you to like things that way. Yes, I understand you have grown accustomed to her approach - but most married folks would have found this completely inadequate many years ago. If she resists now - it seems you will have your answer that she never wants to tell you. It's definitely a passive-aggressive avoidance. I really really want to believe that the meeting that popped up last Friday was truly scheduled late on Thursday, but based on her past behavior I have to wonder if it was always on the calendar & she just couldn't bring herself to reschedule it for us. So now I've given her every opportunity to say she's not going or needs to reschedule, and she has not yet responded. That either means she's going but hates the idea, or she's not going & is afraid to tell me that. Neither one is great, but of course the first is at least workable. And if it's the second, then I will have two questions for her: 1. Why are you canceling this time? 2. What do you intend to do NOW that is a firm commitment I can count on to make up for the missed session. My guess is that answer 1 will be inadequate or disappointing, and the answer to 2 will not be nearly firm enough for me to believe it'll actually happen. And if that's the case then I am going to tell her we are officially separated until she can come back to the table ready to work. Even a patient man has a limit.
2sunny Posted November 15, 2011 Posted November 15, 2011 she won't answer? this is the crux of ALL your problems! she KNOWS if she going or not going! she knows today! yet she won't answer? that's just terribly controlling and mean that she won't say one way or the other. tell her to answer within an hour - seeing that she has an idea of how her week looks. IF she won't answer - you have your answer - she LOOKS for reasons NOT to work on this... and pretends like it's supposed to go away - that is called DENIAL! denial isn't one bit helpful to issues at hand. either she's committed to DOING this work - or she's not... but if she misses appointments - it only serves as evidence that she holds other things as more important. ANY meeting CAN and SHOULD be moved to accommodate the counseling! pin her down - at this point - at EVERY turn - she looks for ways NOT to participate in this so called marriage. and YOU allow it - by not recognizing it for what it is... she doesn't want to participate - yet you keep expecting her to - and she knows she doesn't want to... finding EVERY excuse she thinks you will believe. start giving her one hour answer times. anyone knows what they can or can't do... and when i have someone who needs me - i CHANGE my schedule to make room for them! she can change hers too! IF she wants to!
Author NickFeek Posted November 15, 2011 Author Posted November 15, 2011 she won't answer? this is the crux of ALL your problems! she KNOWS if she going or not going! she knows today! yet she won't answer? that's just terribly controlling and mean that she won't say one way or the other. tell her to answer within an hour - seeing that she has an idea of how her week looks. IF she won't answer - you have your answer - she LOOKS for reasons NOT to work on this... and pretends like it's supposed to go away - that is called DENIAL! denial isn't one bit helpful to issues at hand. either she's committed to DOING this work - or she's not... but if she misses appointments - it only serves as evidence that she holds other things as more important. ANY meeting CAN and SHOULD be moved to accommodate the counseling! pin her down - at this point - at EVERY turn - she looks for ways NOT to participate in this so called marriage. and YOU allow it - by not recognizing it for what it is... she doesn't want to participate - yet you keep expecting her to - and she knows she doesn't want to... finding EVERY excuse she thinks you will believe. start giving her one hour answer times. anyone knows what they can or can't do... and when i have someone who needs me - i CHANGE my schedule to make room for them! she can change hers too! IF she wants to! I'm not sure it's the crux, but it certainly speaks volumes about how she feels. Really though, she has multiple versions of silence. It's not so much a matter of recognizing it as interpreting it. Often it's the standard "silent treatment", but in this case I think it's more a point of pride. Meaning she knows she needs to go and WILL go, but can't bring herself to say it out loud. It's not fun or ideal, but I can live with it if she does come. I don't need to set forth a one-hour time limit or anything like that. The proof will be on the day of, and since I personally get a benefit from the session either way, I'll use it however I have to, and take her participation or lack thereof as a clear message. I agree she'd probably much rather bring us back to status quo, rather than help to move us forward into something more satisfying & sustainable. AND she knows I can't live with that. SO she is resisting in odd ways. As long and drawn out as this process has been, it's given her time to sort through much of her feelings, and in the end we'll come out with an answer based on her actions/willingness to act.
2sunny Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 You - and your ability to NOT expect decency from her - doesn't help her to grow. She should be capable of letting you know what to expect ahead of time.
Author NickFeek Posted November 16, 2011 Author Posted November 16, 2011 You - and your ability to NOT expect decency from her - doesn't help her to grow. She should be capable of letting you know what to expect ahead of time. I've been so used to it for so long, and from such an early age, that I've only recently begun to realize what the difference is. I have now point blank told her I'm hoping we can talk before Friday. She responded with a smile, which I'm taking to mean yes. But again, non-verbal.
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