trippi1432 Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 Good luck Nick....I do hate to say this...and it may be a negative, but I needed my exH to let go and get his addictions out of my life for me to change. Different dynamic, but I like my life now...I learned to let go of a lot..and I changed the dynamic including work balance. He hates that now...but is good with what he has. I see your posts and often wonder if that is what my exH was going through...those thoughts that he never shared with me...would it have changed if he had...who knows...he was lacking in emotional intelligence..thought I should read his mind. It may have changed it...but change was needed on both sides. I needed to know I could come home to someone who cared and he needed someone who cared to come home to him.
lovingwhatis Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 Hugs, Trippi... That post was very poignant. I am glad that you are doing much better and learned to let go. Hugs, Nick (forgot to say that).
Author NickFeek Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 Thanks, Nick! I appreciate the hugs! My situation isn't as complex as yours, but the principles at work are similar. Yes, letting go in relationships is difficult, and not as clear cut as in other life situations. It feels like we are carrying other people, and appears to be more difficult to let go. But, letting go doesn't mean giving up! It is awesome that you were able to trascend your fears in other aspects of your life. I like how you described that yes sometimes your gut feelings weren't correct, but overall have been getting better. I mean, our subconscoius mind is notoriously full of all kinds of info, doesn't it make more sense to find ways to tap that info? Again though, I am talking about the higher consciousness and I have the distinct feeling that you know what I mean, even though you are avoiding going there (i totally respect that, btw). For me, I have had such remarkable moments of surrender with great changes following that I just simply cannot ignore that, nor my mind can't explain it away like it has in the past. Keep us posted on your talk and have a good evening. I do sense what you're getting at, and have, and I'm only really avoiding going there because I'm more interested in hands-on solutions right now. But I don't discount the importance of that in my life. I'll definitely post an update. Thanks.
Author NickFeek Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 Good luck Nick....I do hate to say this...and it may be a negative, but I needed my exH to let go and get his addictions out of my life for me to change. Different dynamic, but I like my life now...I learned to let go of a lot..and I changed the dynamic including work balance. He hates that now...but is good with what he has. I see your posts and often wonder if that is what my exH was going through...those thoughts that he never shared with me...would it have changed if he had...who knows...he was lacking in emotional intelligence..thought I should read his mind. It may have changed it...but change was needed on both sides. I needed to know I could come home to someone who cared and he needed someone who cared to come home to him. I hear you, and it's okay that you said it. I've been sensing something like this for a while. I'm perfectly ready to grow & change WITH someone. I think it's even possible to be with someone who doesn't want to change & still be able to change yourself. BUT if the ways that person doesn't want to change are directly in conflict or in the way of the ways you do, it might be time to let go. Kind of what I'm grappling with now. What's really more important to me. By the way, it's so great to hear you went through it and you like your life now. I really admire that. I think it's very possible your exH was like that, though of course I don't know him or the whole story. And I agree completely that there are issues on both sides. We still have a chance, it just comes with a LOT of work and a LOT of creative thinking. Could be insurmountable, as I suspect your relationship might have been. But again, really great to hear you came through it.
2sunny Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 I hear you, and it's okay that you said it. I've been sensing something like this for a while. I'm perfectly ready to grow & change WITH someone. I think it's even possible to be with someone who doesn't want to change & still be able to change yourself. BUT if the ways that person doesn't want to change are directly in conflict or in the way of the ways you do, it might be time to let go. Kind of what I'm grappling with now. What's really more important to me. By the way, it's so great to hear you went through it and you like your life now. I really admire that. I think it's very possible your exH was like that, though of course I don't know him or the whole story. And I agree completely that there are issues on both sides. We still have a chance, it just comes with a LOT of work and a LOT of creative thinking. Could be insurmountable, as I suspect your relationship might have been. But again, really great to hear you came through it. it's definitely a battle and eats up so much energy to deal with someone's negative aspects that directly affect my life. a good, healthy boundary for keeping myself happy, healthy and safe is critical. when i get myself in a great energy field (which is my norm) - it tends to attract LIKE energy. since i seldom allow negative energy around me for any extended anount of time - i tend to understand what it's like to live each day like i'm already in heaven... it's effortless energy, it flows and takes on a cool, positive, life of it's own... any negative energy can suck the life out of me in a short amount of time - and i don't generally give a person that much power over my own happiness = unless their life is on the line. i usually walk away from those scenarios extremely exhausted... much like John Coffey in the green mile (a great movie). if we have a boundary that we adhere to - knowing our higher form of self depends on our connection to the positive - it becomes much more difficult to justify tossing aside the happy level experienced on a regular basis just because someone doesn't want to open up an honest channel of communication or intends to stay stuck on the dark side. negativity or even a closed mind is the same as death to me. each individual has the power to live in the light... it only depends on what you are willing to allow or not allow to be affecting how happy you were intended to be. for me - if i allow someone to take that from me- it's the same concept as betraying what God intends for us. God doesn't intend for us to live an unhappy life - quite the contrary... we all have choices - how free do you want to be? if it's not working... i was taught to quit trying to fight against the energy presented... it will always feel like a battle! surrender means to cease fighting - anyone and anything - it's much easier to go with the flow. i stay out of the path of negative energy! their is no losing in the surrender... just an acknowledgement that there must be an easier way to make use of the energy we notice and feel. go with what you DO know... and move forward from there... no one can tell you what that is supposed to be- you will know when you pay attention to the energy around you - and stay focused every day about how YOU can be happy.
Author NickFeek Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 2sunny, that was so well written. I totally agree that God wants us to be happy. In fact, if I were to be so bd as to define the purpose of life, I'd say it's to reach one's full potential in a way that takes others into account. And it's the ability to balance those two often conflicting goals that constitutes much of the struggle in life.
lovingwhatis Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 it's definitely a battle and eats up so much energy to deal with someone's negative aspects that directly affect my life. a good, healthy boundary for keeping myself happy, healthy and safe is critical. when i get myself in a great energy field (which is my norm) - it tends to attract LIKE energy. since i seldom allow negative energy around me for any extended anount of time - i tend to understand what it's like to live each day like i'm already in heaven... it's effortless energy, it flows and takes on a cool, positive, life of it's own... any negative energy can suck the life out of me in a short amount of time - and i don't generally give a person that much power over my own happiness = unless their life is on the line. i usually walk away from those scenarios extremely exhausted... much like John Coffey in the green mile (a great movie). if we have a boundary that we adhere to - knowing our higher form of self depends on our connection to the positive - it becomes much more difficult to justify tossing aside the happy level experienced on a regular basis just because someone doesn't want to open up an honest channel of communication or intends to stay stuck on the dark side. negativity or even a closed mind is the same as death to me. each individual has the power to live in the light... it only depends on what you are willing to allow or not allow to be affecting how happy you were intended to be. for me - if i allow someone to take that from me- it's the same concept as betraying what God intends for us. God doesn't intend for us to live an unhappy life - quite the contrary... we all have choices - how free do you want to be? if it's not working... i was taught to quit trying to fight against the energy presented... it will always feel like a battle! surrender means to cease fighting - anyone and anything - it's much easier to go with the flow. i stay out of the path of negative energy! their is no losing in the surrender... just an acknowledgement that there must be an easier way to make use of the energy we notice and feel. go with what you DO know... and move forward from there... no one can tell you what that is supposed to be- you will know when you pay attention to the energy around you - and stay focused every day about how YOU can be happy. Beautiful post, 2sunny! Especially love the bolded. Thanks for sharing.
soserious1 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) Nick, Just a thought here as you've said you intend to speak honestly with your wife this weekend. I tried the direct approach advocated by 2sunny with my now ex-husband, I thought that however the conversation went down that I was ready for it,could handle it emotionally. I was wrong, hearing my husband tell me that he wanted to stay married because I was a good person but that he no longer desired to have sex with me because my aging/face and body repulsed him,totally did me in as did the even harsher words that followed as the conversation escalated into an all out, no holds barred hurt fest. It has taken me many,many sessions of therapy to even talk about how my marriage finally ended without breaking into tears, I still cringe inwardly when I recall that conversation. If I had it to do over again, yes, I'd have still laid my cards out on the table to him but I would have done so in a mediator/ counselor's office. be careful of the truth you ask for, you just might get it & the weight of it can crush you if you aren't ready, get support in real time. Edited May 1, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 Nick, Just a thought here as you've said you intend to speak honestly with your wife this weekend. I tried the direct approach advocated by 2sunny with my now ex-husband, I thought that however the conversation went down that I was ready for it,could handle it emotionally. I was wrong, hearing my husband tell me that he wanted to stay married because I was a good person but that he no longer desired to have sex with me because my aging/face and body repulsed him,totally did me in as did the even harsher words that followed as the conversation escalated into an all out, no holds barred hurt fest. It has taken me many,many sessions of therapy to even talk about how my marriage finally ended without breaking into tears, I still cringe inwardly when I recall that conversation. If I had it to do over again, yes, I'd have still laid my cards out on the table to him but I would have done so in a mediator/ counselor's office. be careful of the truth you ask for, you just might get it & the weight of it can crush you if you aren't ready, get support in real time. Thank you for sharing that, soserious. That must have been horrible. I'm so sorry you had to go through that, and that it still hurts. I agree that having a counselor would help, and I do hope we eventually get there. But I'd rather take this risk now than wait for her to agree to see someone. Plus, we have been quite harsh to each other throughout the years, and have recently shed light on some difficult truths, so even though there's still a high probability that we're going to be hurt, there's very little else we can say that we haven't already heard. The hurt I think will come more from realizing what we've been unable to come to terms with. But I will definitely keep your story in mind, so that we can do our best to avoid a shouting match.
2sunny Posted May 3, 2011 Posted May 3, 2011 so now - almost two weeks has passed since the inception of your thread. what progress has been made? what has changed? i'm not referring to more discussions with your wife - we can all see that talking is your usual operating method...and that doesn't bring the change needed when things are tough. what ACTION has been taken? what are you DOING that is different... different enough to invoke change? every day is an opportunity for change - if it's not = then you can expect that everything just remains the same.
Author NickFeek Posted May 3, 2011 Author Posted May 3, 2011 Thanks for checking in, 2sunny. Part of this process has been me discovering where I am now and what I'm willing to live with. I needed to do that before approaching my wife so I understood where I was coming from. I appreciate all the help and insight with that. Despite your question, I'm going to update on the talk. My wife and I had most of the talk I wanted to have, and we both shared some hard truths. The hardest for me was something I suspected anyway, which is that, when I confronted her directly with the questions of what she needs, what can we do to work on this, can she imagine us getting to a better place together, and does she see how our difficult issues warrant us going to counseling, her answer was, in short, she's not sure there's anything I could do to make her feel differently about me because she's not sure who I am anymore, and that she doesn't want to get into the details of all this because she doesn't think I'll like the answers she gives. I told her anything is better than being in limbo, and she said maybe I deserve to be in limbo. I said that may be true to a point, but that it takes two to limbo, that a person can't be in limbo without their own consent, and that if she really does not want to go to counseling and/or talk all this through (something I still think is essential before action is taken), then there's no reason to be in limbo and we should just end it. I said there are only two outcomes we should live with: success ranking better than what we used to have, or failure and an end. There can be no in between. And that if she's determined not to talk or WORK with me, then we should just separate. I said a bunch of other things too. We both did. On her end, she said it pisses her off that it seems like I think I did something heroic by cheating and so bringing to a head our issues. I told her I feel horrible every day, not at all a hero. We BOTH felt the other person has always taken us for granted. From me, I told her how sorry I am about not only my recent mistakes, but about how many things we've both screwed up over the years. And that I hate to see her hurt and still want her to be happy and fulfilled. But I think she was so shocked by my directness WITHOUT anger or aggression that she needed to let it all sink in before responding. So our conversation ended there. While there was no ACTION by your definition, I feel like this was a very successful and forward moving exchange. Lots of new info and insight exchanged, and I hope I've brought us closer to an inevitable decision. Because I do agree that talking about talking is frustrating and ultimately fruitless. My gut tells me that unless she has a giant change of heart, a separation is imminent.
lovingwhatis Posted May 3, 2011 Posted May 3, 2011 Nick, Good for you for being honest and forthright with your W. I agree that this is action, you acted within that conversation in a way that was uncustomary for you, and were willing to face some hard truths. I admire your courage. Though I've been an advocate of really shifting your perspective on this, I can see in this post that you have shifted, and that shift has shown you how it is that you want to proceed. I will write more later, but wanted to come and give you support. Hugs!
Author NickFeek Posted May 3, 2011 Author Posted May 3, 2011 Thanks for the encouraging words (and hugs!), lovingwhatis. There's more heartache to come, I know. But as long as it's in the context of forward motion, I will eventually be okay.
2sunny Posted May 3, 2011 Posted May 3, 2011 she finds power and usefulness in having a reason to be angry at you. that is not a solution = that is the problem. she's giving you no choice. hugs :-(
Author NickFeek Posted May 3, 2011 Author Posted May 3, 2011 That's a deceptively simple statement, and when I untie it a well of sadness comes pouring out. I know where I hurt, but in a way I hurt infinitely more for her. And knowing there's a high chance I can't help her anymore just crushes me. But it does seem to indicate the writing is on the wall. More later. Thx.
lovingwhatis Posted May 3, 2011 Posted May 3, 2011 Yes, it is very sad... I can feel the sadness that you are experiencing, and more is to come most probably. Be strong. Today I asked a friend who has been happily married for more than 60 years what he thinks is the solution to someone who becomes chronically ill and cannot have sex with their partner. He said that the two people need to adapt, find other ways for showing affection, cuddle. He immediately said that to ignore the healthy person's needs would be insulting. Not my words, his. I thought of you and your M. I completely understand your empathy towards her, but in your circumstance what's missing is empathy towards you...
2sunny Posted May 4, 2011 Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) Yes, it is very sad... I can feel the sadness that you are experiencing, and more is to come most probably. Be strong. Today I asked a friend who has been happily married for more than 60 years what he thinks is the solution to someone who becomes chronically ill and cannot have sex with their partner. He said that the two people need to adapt, find other ways for showing affection, cuddle. He immediately said that to ignore the healthy person's needs would be insulting. Not my words, his. I thought of you and your M. I completely understand your empathy towards her, but in your circumstance what's missing is empathy towards you... i agree. and great post. when loving another - it's key to show loving behavior towards them. healthy couples tend to consider their spouse/partner more than themselves. you show that trademark, but she doesn't. she's avoiding something. since she isn't willing to spend her time and energy making the M better - she hides away at work. that is not a solution to what is at home... that is complete avoidance. i'd bet money this isn't NEW behavior. she doesn't intend to connect. why? only she knows - but since she won't move forward and then = past it - there is no way to possibly help her - and subsequently - the M. she acts like she's not affecting anyone else by doing nothing about the problem. that is a victim's role. she can blame herself then - for being unwilling to change. if she doesn't want to - you can't make her. she has left no options for every time you offer up solutions or suggestions. get busy finding great ways to be happy... knowing she doesn't intend to participate. have you yet read:? the four agreements the voice of knowledge co-dependent no more time to take care of you - since she exited the scene a while ago. learn what happy looks like for you my friend. everyone deserves that - whether or not you have a gal by your side is completely beside the point. Edited May 4, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 Lovingwhatis: Yes, still so sad and scared.* Other than our first two years of marriage, there were periods of depression she (and I) went through that made it very hard for us to gain any momentum with intimacy. We have been good cuddlers, but of course not in recent months. And as you can guess that's just not enough, though it really does seem like it might be enough for her. And yes, for some reason her empathy level has never been enough to compel her to take action.* 2sunny: I have said for years to her that what you hold in your heart doesn't mean a damn thing if it's not manifest in some kind of action. I know she loves me. I can feel it. But the only actions she's willing to take are things that mean love to her. One key thing I learned in reading 5 Languages is that you have to be willing to give love in the ways the other person needs it.* No I haven't read those yet, though they are in my Amazon cart!* I've been finding ways to be happy. But in so many ways they are coupled with sadness: because in finding them myself I'm conceding that I can't get them from her. It would be impossible to convey how much I still love her and how much she means to me. So as excited as I get at times thinking I might actually find things I've been missing forever, it's killing me killing me.* I can't tell you how much I appreciate you asking me how I'm feeling. And other than all of the above, I guess the answer is resigned. Sad and scared, but resigned that this is it. That she just doesn't have it in her to take the next steps with me. My kids are so wonderful and we love being with each other so much, and it pains me every day to think I may have to drop a bomb in their lives. But I'm not seeing another acceptable option.* I don't think it's going to be an overnight shift to a new life, but for the first time I can really see it on the horizon. It feels like a rebirth and a major death, and the death part is overpowering everything right now.* Thanks as always. More later.*
2sunny Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 letting go of the part that doesn't work - is the death part. it must be don't first in order to get to the next step= the rebirth- or new life as i like to call it. knowing you have a God given right to be in this world to be happy - this new life gives you the chance to have that. hanging on to something that isn't working, negative energy, or if it's dragging us down is like swimming against the current - it only wastes a ton of energy and you're stuck in the same damn place - at best. it's simply exhausting for no good reason other than to survive = and THAT is NOT living. you may as well kill the spirit of you now if you keep attempting to swim against the current. there's no joy in it. you could be splashing in the waves and riding a surfboard too. swim around, chat with people, dig for sand crab, collect sea glass! anything but swimming against the current. it's time to live again!
Author NickFeek Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 letting go of the part that doesn't work - is the death part. it must be don't first in order to get to the next step= the rebirth- or new life as i like to call it. knowing you have a God given right to be in this world to be happy - this new life gives you the chance to have that. hanging on to something that isn't working, negative energy, or if it's dragging us down is like swimming against the current - it only wastes a ton of energy and you're stuck in the same damn place - at best. it's simply exhausting for no good reason other than to survive = and THAT is NOT living. you may as well kill the spirit of you now if you keep attempting to swim against the current. there's no joy in it. you could be splashing in the waves and riding a surfboard too. swim around, chat with people, dig for sand crab, collect sea glass! anything but swimming against the current. it's time to live again! What a coincidence - I just bought some sea glass for my daughter's school project! Love the metaphors. Do you think part of the death is letting go of the parts that DO work too? I can stomach letting go of what doesn't work, but that's almost assuredly going to mean we'll have to let go of all the good things we shared. And that's what's hurting. And yet, I'm still ready for the rebirth.
2sunny Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 What a coincidence - I just bought some sea glass for my daughter's school project! Love the metaphors. Do you think part of the death is letting go of the parts that DO work too? I can stomach letting go of what doesn't work, but that's almost assuredly going to mean we'll have to let go of all the good things we shared. And that's what's hurting. And yet, I'm still ready for the rebirth. no... i like to refer to it as weeding the garden. in order to keep the blooms coming - you need to remove the weeds. the weeds will take over. leave the flowers or clear the field so new life can grow. plant new seeds... the negative influences have to be removed so the positive parts can be nurtured and fertilized... then the good part starts taking on new life and it grows bigger. to continue feeding it now - just allows for more weeds (negativity) to grow bigger. must get a firm, healthy boundary that removes the weeds and any negativity - so the flowers (positive energy) and get bigger. What a coincidence - I just bought some sea glass for my daughter's school project! Love the metaphors. there are NO coincidences... i collect sea glass every day! ;-) it makes for beautiful projects and jewelry...
Author NickFeek Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 no... i like to refer to it as weeding the garden. in order to keep the blooms coming - you need to remove the weeds. the weeds will take over. leave the flowers or clear the field so new life can grow. plant new seeds... the negative influences have to be removed so the positive parts can be nurtured and fertilized... then the good part starts taking on new life and it grows bigger. to continue feeding it now - just allows for more weeds (negativity) to grow bigger. must get a firm, healthy boundary that removes the weeds and any negativity - so the flowers (positive energy) and get bigger. there are NO coincidences... i collect sea glass every day! ;-) it makes for beautiful projects and jewelry... Sea glass really is beautiful stuff, even if we bought it at Michael's! So you mean that the positive parts of our relationship still may exist after the weeds are pulled? I'd have to guess some of that will be pulled up too.
2sunny Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Sea glass really is beautiful stuff, even if we bought it at Michael's! So you mean that the positive parts of our relationship still may exist after the weeds are pulled? I'd have to guess some of that will be pulled up too. we need to eliminate the stuff that stifles us and our growth in order to see what can be grown. to actually look at what is there is critical. denial doesn't help it to be pretty. when it's not pretty - it's time to change it all up. accept that there are weeds... eliminate the weeds - assess what is left - and start growing a new and improved garden. feed what is there - water it - nurture it - show it love - and watch it give you happiness. and if there is nothing there after removing the weeds... start fresh with what YOU have. do you have dirt? do you have water? find new seeds to plant! give it some sunshine! talking about planting the garden won't get rid of the weeds- won't grow new flowers. there is no action in talking of the garden. it's still a bunch of weeds at the end of the day - and you had a choice to go work it and remove the weeds... pretending like the weeds are full of beauty doesn't make it a beautiful blooming flower garden that will bring you joy! start dealing with what you know is real. start moving towards getting rid of the weeds. start planting the garden you want. to get what you intend to have- one must remove what isn't working.
Author NickFeek Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 Well it's comforting to think there may be things we can salvage, even if we don't stay together. And at this point I can't live with the weeds anymore, so there's no going back for me.
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