When is a cheater no longer a cheater?

[Snowflower]

I am a "recovering" alcoholic / drug addict. I have been clean and sober for 23 years. I still KNOW that I am an addict. I have to do what needs to be done for that part of me to NOT get power again.

 

In my years as an active substance abuser and a recovering one, I have NEVER experienced being introduced as one. That is a really weird concept.

 

When is a cheater no longer a cheater? IMO, when they have been fully accountable for having been A CHEATER, in all its negative connotations. Not justifying it, not romanticizing it ("all's fair in love and war, for example), not minimizing it, taking personal responsibility for it and, like I do with dangerous (to me) substances, steering clear of the slippery slopes that can take them back to cheaterville again.

 

My SO cheated on his ex wife, and it destroyed their marriage. It went like this: They had a pretty miserable marriage; it had been so for over ten years. He allowed his ego to get puffed up by the attentions of another woman (his secretary). He slept with her once. He was immediately crushed by self loathing and guilt (raised really religious, so his upbringing was working on his conscience) and felt he had to confess to his wife, which he did. She was devastated and kicked him out. He tried everything to win her back but she could not ever forgive him, and she divorced him.

 

This man spent the next 10 years living a lonely and pretty pathetic existence, in my opinion as a form of penance.

 

Truly, he and his wife had a bad marriage and they really needed to be apart. Both of them believe that at this time of their lives (their relationship is very amicable). Due to cowardice and his inability to face the idea of divorce, which he did not believe in, he "passive aggressively" f***ed his marriage over and made his wife make all the really hard moves, plus, feel the pain of betrayal and rejection.

 

He told me all of this on our first date. He had been warning me that he had something to share that might be a deal breaker for me (we met online and had quite a bit of conversation before meeting). He was pretty sure I would walk out of the restaurant in disgust.

 

He still carries a LOT of shame about it.

 

I think that this man would rather shoot himself in the head than ever go through anything remotely like that again.

 

In real life, I have experienced a lot of different aspects of cheating, and I was involved with a chronic liar/ cheater for years. That man is still cheating today.

 

I have never, in real adult life, known of a successful marriage between a cheating spouse and his / her affair partner (I think it did happen a couple of times with peers of my father's but that was a different time of history), but since I've come here to LS I understand that it can happen. Personally, I'm not sure I would be capable of trusting a man that I had seen functioning with deceit at close range.

 

MMe. Chaucer, thank you for writing this post and displaying such honesty about your own experiences and those of your SO. I think your words will offer solace to many who read them.

[bentnotbroken]

I think its unfair to tag a person for his or her wrong doing in the past. Normal human do make mistakes and has the ability to correct them the moment they realized they were wrong and want to redeem themselves of that wrong doing. If you want that tag to remain forever, then why should a man change for good anyway? Are you yourself free from wrongdoings?

 

There are a lot of reasons why mistake is committed. In the case of infidelity, the other party should examine yourself closely too. You could be the one who push your partner to do that.

 

 

If I couldn't keep him from cheating, I sure as hell couldn't push him to do. That is as smart as saying I pushed you into being a decent human being. Yeah right!

 

I think a person is no longer a person who cheats when they no longer cheat.

[fooled once]

MMe. Chaucer, thank you for writing this post and displaying such honesty about your own experiences and those of your SO. I think your words will offer solace to many who read them.

 

Ditto Snowflower.

[trinity1]

An alcoholic is NEVER an ex-alcoholic. Might be a RECOVERING alcoholic, but never an ex.

Soooooo, by your analogy, a cheater is always a cheater. Maybe a recovering cheater, but who in their right mind would take that risk?

Let me guess? You??

 

Not everyone who consumes alcohol is an alcoholic. Nor is everyone who cheats a sex addict.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Not everyone who consumes alcohol is an alcoholic. Nor is everyone who cheats a sex addict.

 

That was a little random (the bolded part). Has anyone on this thread claimed that they are?

 

One thing we don't have to argue: everyone who cheats IS a cheater.

[Silly_Girl]

An alcoholic is NEVER an ex-alcoholic. Might be a RECOVERING alcoholic, but never an ex.

Soooooo, by your analogy, a cheater is always a cheater. Maybe a recovering cheater, but who in their right mind would take that risk?

Let me guess? You??

 

As I said, it's subjective but I find it really interesting. As for the concept of risk, I'm satisfied I'm not taking any additional risk over and above other relationships I've had. In fact, my personal opinion is that there is less risk than in other relationships I've had. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that rationale because you won't want to, and because you're not me and haven't lived through my experiences.

[trinity1]

That was a little random (the bolded part). Has anyone on this thread claimed that they are?

 

One thing we don't have to argue: everyone who cheats IS a cheater.

 

It's the proper comparison. Alcoholism and sex addiction are both addictions. Cheating in general is not an addiction. I'm just correcting what I see as a flaw in the original post.

 

An alcoholic can never become an ex-alcoholic, only a recovering alcoholic. The same is true of a sex addict. A cheater however does not necessarily have a sex addiction, and can therefore lay off his earlier behavioral pattern and become an ex-cheater. With the exception of course of the cheaters who have an addiction to sex, they become recovering sex addicts.

Edited March 2, 2011 by trinity1

[OWoman]

what about people who cheat on their taxes every year, faithfully? They are lying to get something in return, and that is what many people think a person in a relationship/marriage is doing when they cheat. Wouldn't the person who fibs on their taxes be considered a "cheater", too? And, if so, why don't we call them cheaters as well?

 

 

I consider cheating on taxes a far worse "crime" than cheating on a spouse.

[OWoman]

....Not a Christmas cracker riddle, but a question based on SidLyon's comment that those who begin a new permanent relationship out of an affair are equally at risk of being the victim of cheating as those who have been cheated on and elect to reconcile. She said 'we're both married to cheaters'.

 

Just curious as to whether a cheater can ever be an ex-cheater in the way an alcoholic may become an ex-alcoholic or whether the consensus of the board is simply the old leopard/spots issue and even if someone has been faithful and true for 30, 40 or 50 years, if they once cheated they shall be spoken of as a cheater for the rest of their life.

 

When does a cheater become an ex-cheater... to whom?

 

To themselves? I'd say that would be when they took ownership of their choices, examined why they took the decisions they'd taken, and addressed and resolved any underlying issues that contributed to that behaviour. For some, that would be through IC; through others, MC or some other form of R counselling; for others, a period of hard reflection and active behaviour challenging and changing may do it. But, they'd certainly have addressed the issues consciously, and would certainly have decided not to repeat that behaviour in the future, and would be consciously avoiding both the triggers that led to that behaviour and the responses within themselves, being more mindful of how they behave in Rs and how they deal with difficult situations, generally.

 

To others? That would depend on the others, how deep their prejudices run and how big a deal marital fidelity is in their environment, among other things. For the hard core reactionary types, they'll never forgive or forget; for more laid-back easy-going types, once they behaviour shifts, they'll move on and change their opinions, too. And for those with personal experience of As - it would depend on the outcomes of their own situations, IMO: Those who view their outcomes positively, will be more inclined to be positive and celebrate change and renewal; while those who view their outcomes negatively will be more inclined to cling to negative typecasting and deny change, seeking the security of stasis.

[OpenBook]

Most people expect honesty from someone they married. Most people expect someone to honor promises made. Most people expect if someone can't honor a promise or a vow, that they speak up and either try to FIX the situation or DIVORCE before dropping their pants. What is so hard about that logic?

 

Apparently it's hard for those who think it only applies to their spouse and not to themselves. There are many ways that those vows can be (and most certainly are) broken on a daily basis in most M's that I've witnessed. And I only see the public side of it, God knows how much worse it is behind closed doors.

[neveragain1]

Interesting. That's why I love hearing others' views.

 

Actually, my uncle is an ex-alcoholic. He abused alcohol for a long time, lost jobs and relationships etc; he drinks socially now, but doesn't abuse alcohol or suffer through drinking. Must be getting on for 25 years now.

 

if he drinks socially and doesn't abuse it, then he was never an alcoholic to begin with.

 

a true alcoholic will stay drunk if they don't stay away from alcohol completely. Since your uncle can drink occasionally, then he never had the problem of alcoholism.

[neveragain1]

Not everyone who consumes alcohol is an alcoholic. Nor is everyone who cheats a sex addict.

 

true about the alcohol.

 

and no, not everyone who cheats is a sex addict.

 

but cheating IS part of their character. I get tired of hearing the "this is so out of character for me". no, it IS in character, it just lied dormant before.

 

you either have it in you or you don't.

[Art_Critic]

It doesn't erase it, but if someone hasn't drunk alcohol for 20 years, let's say, and most or all of their friends only know them as teetotal, it would seem odd to me if they were to be described amongst their peers, or introduced as an alcoholic.

 

Once an Alcoholic, always an Alcoholic.

 

I can be a sober alcoholic though.. but I'm still and Alcoholic and will be the rest of my life.

I am powerless over Alcohol.

 

Once a Cheater, always a Cheater.

 

They can be a non practicing Cheater though.. but they will always be a cheater, the rest of their lives.

 

My father was a serial cheater so he took the once a cheater always a cheater too far and never saw the errors of his ways..

[Silly_Girl]

I find it fascinating. If you behaved a certain way you retain that label for EVER.

 

So someone who was very promiscuous in their youth but grows up, settles down, and learns the error of their ways remains a Slut. But a 'non-practicing' slut!!

[silktricks]

Cheaters don't cheat for the excitement? Believe what you want, there are serial cheaters out there. A lot of them. Cheaters cheat to get their rocks off, and to hurt their spouses.

 

 

D78, you seem to have an incredibly narrow vision of the world, and I'm not too sure if your reading comprehension is poor or if you simply ignore the portions of a post you don't agree with. I said: except for serial cheaters. Yes, those I do believe cheat for excitement. For the most part, however, I do not believe that people who cheat are serial.

 

The one things you've said, however, that I do agree with is that often, IMHO the underlying reason for cheating is anger - therefore, yes, I would agree that it is to hurt their spouses. But, simply because I do agree with that little part of your statement doesn't mean that it is accurate, it simply means that I happen to agree. It would be nice if you would be a little less dogmatic in your statements, though I don't expect you will .

[neveragain1]

I find it fascinating. If you behaved a certain way you retain that label for EVER.

 

thats because one behaved that way because its part of their character.

 

if a sex offender moved in next door to you for an offense committed 20 years ago, but has been rehabilitated, that would sit fine with you?

[Silly_Girl]

neveragain1 said:

 

thats because one behaved that way because its part of their character.

 

Is it, or was it a part of their character THEN?

 

if a sex offender moved in next door to you for an offense committed 20 years ago, but has been rehabilitated, that would sit fine with you?

 

Yes.

[neveragain1]

Yes.

 

ya, I bet you would.

 

ok, make sure if you have a registered sex offender living next door to you if you have a child to bake him/her some cookies.

 

and no, with cheaters, its always part of their character.

[silktricks]

thats because one behaved that way because its part of their character.

 

if a sex offender moved in next door to you for an offense committed 20 years ago, but has been rehabilitated, that would sit fine with you?

 

It would be with me as well.

 

And since you brought up that particular subject, the fact is that the label "sex offender" has been so loosely described in the US that it is ridiculous. For example, if a 21 year old has consensual sex with a 15 year old, they are labeled a sex offender. Do you truly believe that is someone to be concerned about for the rest of their life???? Truly???

[neveragain1]

It would be with me as well.

 

And since you brought up that particular subject, the fact is that the label "sex offender" has been so loosely described in the US that it is ridiculous. For example, if a 21 year old has consensual sex with a 15 year old, they are labeled a sex offender. Do you truly believe that is someone to be concerned about for the rest of their life???? Truly???

 

well we are talking principles here.

 

how about a 21 year old that had sex with a 10 year old girl. but he is now rehabilitated. surely he doesn't deserve the title sex offender any longer, no?

 

Because that was his character at 21, not 41.

[Spark1111]

I think a cheater would have the propensity to cheat again unless they alone undertook the necessary steps to fix what was broken within themselves.

 

The marriage may have been broken, but they could have left it or tried to fix it before cheating. They could have educated themself to better relationship skills, and told their spouse of their unhappiness and demanded it be a joint effort or they were walking.

 

What did they do? Complain to strangers, feel more miserable and more trapped, frustrated, but never created any goals or shared them.

 

Why didn't they? Because they lacked coping and communication skills to do so, have been taught since childhood to avoid confrontation and solved the issues by finding another, unless we are talking about that really rare exit affair.

 

If they wind up with the other, what has changed? What do they bring to the new relationship? The same inability to express their true needs or fix issues,institute strong relational boundaries, and lack in self-introspection once the romantic phase ends. So what happens if they grown unhappy in the new relationship?

 

I would venture more of the same.

 

Once a cheater, always a cheater?

 

Could be unless dire consequences force the cheater to change their way of coping with the world, stop blaming others for their own unhappiness, and learn to take responsibility for the state of their relationships and the state of their happiness.

[Silly_Girl]

ya, I bet you would.

 

ok, make sure if you have a registered sex offender living next door to you if you have a child to bake him/her some cookies.

 

and no, with cheaters, its always part of their character.

 

Right, you know NOTHING about my private life, but I can stand by that statement of mine a hundred times over.

 

Don't ask someone a straight question then just deem their honest answer a lie.

[Silly_Girl]

I think a cheater would have the propensity to cheat again unless they alone undertook the necessary steps to fix what was broken within themselves.

 

The marriage may have been broken, but they could have left it or tried to fix it before cheating. They could have educated themself to better relationship skills, and told their spouse of their unhappiness and demanded it be a joint effort or they were walking.

 

What did they do? Complain to strangers, feel more miserable and more trapped, frustrated, but never created any goals or shared them.

 

Why didn't they? Because they lacked coping and communication skills to do so, have been taught since childhood to avoid confrontation and solved the issues by finding another, unless we are talking about that really rare exit affair.

 

If they wind up with the other, what has changed? What do they bring to the new relationship? The same inability to express their true needs or fix issues,institute strong relational boundaries, and lack in self-introspection once the romantic phase ends. So what happens if they grown unhappy in the new relationship?

 

I would venture more of the same.

 

Once a cheater, always a cheater?

 

Could be unless dire consequences force the cheater to change their way of coping with the world, stop blaming others for their own unhappiness, and learn to take responsibility for the state of their relationships and the state of their happiness.

 

And now, they have learned and demonstrated those skills.

[neveragain1]

Right, you know NOTHING about my private life, but I can stand by that statement of mine a hundred times over.

 

Don't ask someone a straight question then just deem their honest answer a lie.

 

ok then, I'll assume you are being truthful. and if someone that molests children moves in next door to you, I know you'll be fine with that person........because that was their character "then".

[silktricks]

well we are talking principles here.

 

how about a 21 year old that had sex with a 10 year old girl. but he is now rehabilitated. surely he doesn't deserve the title sex offender any longer, no?

 

Because that was his character at 21, not 41.

 

I guess I'm not sure how this is responsive to what I said. I was talking about the fact that in the US the label sex offender doesn't really differentiate between predatory dangerous offenders and someone who 30 years ago would have had a "statutory rape" clause. Statutory rape meant something. It defined what happened. People knew what it meant. Sex offender sounds dangerous and often is not.

 

But, since you said this is about principles, then just what principles are we talking? Whether or not someone can change? I believe wholeheartedly that they can. So, if your question is do I think that someone should wear a label for their entire life in regards to something they did when they were young and have never done since, my answer is no, I do not. And would I care if a 41 year old who had sex at 21 with a child but had been rehabilitated moved in next door to me, no I wouldn't.

 

It seems to me unutterably ridiculous that there is a "registry" for sex offenders, but not for murderers, burglars, drug dealers or anything else. Once they get out of jail, (and through parole or whatever) their punishment is pretty much over. But sex??? Never. Puritan roots anyone???

 

And since this thread is about cheaters and how long should they wear the label. My answer is, as I stated before, when they no longer cheat.

Edited March 2, 2011 by silktricks