Is there hope?

[debtman]

Craig, give NO credence to what she says. My W said the same sort of stuff to me when she was trying to justify her affair to herself, to me, to the world and she said some amazingly painful, hurtful things about how bad our relationship always was and the fact that I just never saw it. All I have to do is look back through old emails, remember old conversations, look at old holiday cards, etc. to know what bs that is.

 

She's in the fog of the new relationship with OM. Stick to the 180, don't give her the satisfaction of arguing with her, that will just further convince her that she's doing the right thing. She's trying to push your buttons so that you will get upset and frustrated.

 

Stick to your guns!

 

Good luck and keep posting...

[willowthewisp]

Craig, I'm really tired tonight but wanted to respond so this will be brief, sorry. It's BS, she is lashing out because she is hurt. No one returns from begging, beleive me, I begged my ex and he stayed steadfast he would not try, despite NEVER having told me he was unhappy before walking, by his own admission. Anyway, that's a side point, sorry.

 

Just stay calm and get to MC as soon as you can.

[dreamingoftigers]

When she starts firing, you hold your own, you correct the behaviour by saying straight-up:

 

"We can talk about all of these feelings but not when I am being yelled at or vented at.

 

We need to discuss your concerns like adults or I have to walk away from this until we are both calm."

 

Hardest thing to do when someone is pushing every button at once. YOu hit her button with the bed thing. The thing that is confusing is that if you would have gotten in the bed with her or asked to get in the bed with her, she would have said "no." Trust me on this one, it isn't where you jumped or how you jumped, it is a trust/security trigger. She feels like she has no control over her own feelings so she blasts yours.

 

I will be blunt. It is not healthy. You need to look up all of the non-reactive communication patterns you can. One person sent me a link, I know that you are dealing with a woman but a lot of these apply.

 

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

 

Check into EMDR for yourself and her, I know I say it a lot, but it helps so much. Don't walk, yet. Don't accept abuse and venting.

 

She isn't here because you begged. She's here because she wants to lie in that bed next to you and it drives her nuts that you aren't all over that. But don't be either cause then you'll scare her.

 

Make it her choice: she says: are you going to lie in bed with me? you say: is that okay?

 

you might hit a trigger here but keep it at her choice.

[willowthewisp]

DOTs' right, its the push/pull thing, you can't do or saying anything right Craig, because she is wanting intimacy v not wanting intimacy. Fear. She could also be testing you subconsiously, pushing you to see if you will abadon her again, like DOT said in an earlier post. No one comes back unless they want to, no breaks up a great relationship with the BF unless they want to, not unless they were held to ransom in some way eg financial support etc but then she wouldn't be WANTING you in that bed ever would she? Do you see?

 

OK I have to go sleep, I hope things are going better for you today Craig?

[trippi1432]

This fuc---g sucks! We had a good time today, made dinner and had some wine then this bs right before bed.

 

Even more great news. She contented to

To try and blame me for everything and I calmly said I will not take full blame. Started with her i didn't want to really try so I told her that I

Was here ready to try but if she didn't want to then that was on her.'she said ok I can live with that.

Then goodnight.

Yay......

 

Craig - Just an observation since the posts came in around 3 am by my LS timestamp....about the wine (and not sure how much of that was involved), not a good time to try and have a serious discussion with someone no matter if one or both are under the influence. Just saying from my own experience in that, when someone is under the influence, nobody wins an argument or position.

[updown]

this is just my opinion. but, her wanting you to be there vs. not wanting you to be there..... is her just using you. wanting to do these things still, vacations and trips and what not. but, not wanting to do it alone and therefore asking you to go along. and then at the end, she's done. so, off you go again.

 

she wants you to go with her on a vacation to see her grandmother. when you don't answer the question correctly, to which there really is NO correct answer, she blows up and says ' another vacation ruined.' you are a means to an end for her to take these trips. that's MY opinion......

 

when a person looks at another with contempt, or speaks with contempt towards them, a productive relationship cannot continue. and marriages that include contempt from one partner to another cannot survive. they simply cannot. check out her behavior and comments towards you and see if they fall into the "contempt" category.......

[Craig2425]

The disneyland trip I felt used. We always said we wanted to be there for her first time so when we got home and she said she didn't want to try(after telling me twice she did while we were there) I felt like she fold me just so we could be there for our daughter.

This trip was to her grandmas house. It was just our daughter myself and her. Grandma was out of town and she has a house near yosemite so we used the house instead of a hotel.

This was a last minute thing after her saying fine let's just try and get this over with.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong because sometimes I feel like I'm being used.

 

So this morning she woke up like nothing was wrong. Talked to me and for the most part the drive home was pretty good. She offered to rub my neck and was talkative.

Them we get close to her house and she's starting to get quite and not even look at me.

I don't get her. Last night she kissed me them today barley look at me.

 

She asked me if I want to hang out for a bit(dunno how long that will be).

 

This is really hard. Harder then wanting her. So many games it seems like. Why not just try if you want to? Why say ok let's try then say I dunno?

 

Anybody have a time machine?

[dreamingoftigers]

The disneyland trip I felt used. We always said we wanted to be there for her first time so when we got home and she said she didn't want to try(after telling me twice she did while we were there) I felt like she fold me just so we could be there for our daughter.

This trip was to her grandmas house. It was just our daughter myself and her. Grandma was out of town and she has a house near yosemite so we used the house instead of a hotel.

This was a last minute thing after her saying fine let's just try and get this over with.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong because sometimes I feel like I'm being used.

 

So this morning she woke up like nothing was wrong. Talked to me and for the most part the drive home was pretty good. She offered to rub my neck and was talkative.

Them we get close to her house and she's starting to get quite and not even look at me.

I don't get her. Last night she kissed me them today barley look at me.

 

She asked me if I want to hang out for a bit(dunno how long that will be).

 

This is really hard. Harder then wanting her. So many games it seems like. Why not just try if you want to? Why say ok let's try then say I dunno?

 

Anybody have a time machine?

 

Listen,

 

I find that it is almost a total male perspective for women to be "using" them for money etc.

 

Clearly she is having some blowup abandonment issues. There is also something big that I didn't notice before that has been graciously pointed out. It comes at the 'end' of activities where things are coming to a close. I know this exact moment and feeling (and trust me so does my husband much more then he would like to).

 

Did you ever notice on dates etc. when you guys were younger that you tried to pack it in and she would try to hang on longer, like talk more or come up with 'just one more thing?'

 

Or on the phone if you have to be away just hang on forever, that kind of thing?

 

I have been nightmarishly bad with those things for awhile.

 

It also makes me wonder because usually when couples try to get back together they don't dive in head first and spend time away together. Not logically anyways. They go reaaaalllllyyyy slow on little dates.

 

The point I am getting at is this. She is on this side of the fence:

 

 

 

 

|

|

O | O

|

|

 

or that side. And she isn't going to see the middle between the two because of abandonment, you are either 'in' or 'out' and she is either 'in' or 'out.'

 

You need to sit on that middle non-reactive only 'in' as long as the circusmstance is healthy line. You need to hold that line. Do not take abuse, do not take threats and make her words mean something.

 

If she throws you out a loaded question, ask her 'if that is what she really wants' because you have already made your stance perfectly clear and your stance is: "I want this marriage as long as it is stable, healthy and loving."

 

Everytime she throws out an insecurity you respond with, "as long as it is stable, healthy and loving I want to be here and I am willing to do my part."

 

The more non-reactive you remain, the less reactive she will become over time. Your marriage didn't get this bad overnight. It isn't going to unmake itself in the blink of an eye.

 

Stay steady, build your self-esteem and 180 until she comes back around and makes some sense.

 

Craig, this woman has abandonment issues, she isn't going anywhere until she either feels pretty much completely abandoned, or smothered so that she has to abandon you. She may want to abandon you periodically to hurt you simply because of that wounded animal lashing out stuff. What you do when she says that she doesn't want to try anymore is this:

 

"If you don't want to try anymore and you aren't seeing yourself being happy then that is your choice and I respect it. I want you to be happy either way. I love you and I think that we can be happy together and healthy together. I am not willing to settle for not being happy and in an unhealthy relationship."

 

She will test you. I cornered my husband in a hotel room and yelled at him "in or out" and he said "only if it is healthy." I said "you pick now" he said "I be committing until it is healthy but I am willing to try."

I walked out and told him I was going to find someone that really loves me. I drove about 10 minutes away. I turned back got sheepish and we went to sleep.

I do not endorse my previous actions.

But I will tell you that abandonment issues keep her on a string until she deals with them. Part of why she lashes at you is that the trap that has wounded her is you. She knows that she is caught and cannot leave and be happy and cannot stay caught in the trap and be happy. What you need to do is show her that you release her from the trap and that you will be right nearby for her. It is her decision but you aren't going to hunt her down and trap her again.

 

All of this is completely dependent on how much emotional stability you can give to yourself and how much patience you have to deal with this.

 

No one said it would be easy.

[Craig2425]

Last night she asked if I was staying. I Said do you want me to? Her response

I don't care either way. Then she said she's confused again. Part of her wants to try for our kid them she says the other part doesn't think she will or ever could be happy.

She asked if I was staying again and I got the same response from her. I stayed and she kissed me goodnight. Now It's morning and I'm getting the cold

Shoulder.

[dreamingoftigers]

Last night she asked if I was staying. I Said do you want me to? Her response

I don't care either way. Then she said she's confused again. Part of her wants to try for our kid them she says the other part doesn't think she will or ever could be happy.

She asked if I was staying again and I got the same response from her. I stayed and she kissed me goodnight. Now It's morning and I'm getting the cold

Shoulder.

 

Better results then before. Not perfect, not glorious but better.

Slow improvement is what you are looking at. I know it is painful. I think that to heal a far-gone marriage you end up facing every demon in your closet and becoming stronger for it.

[worldgonewrong]

I think that to heal a far-gone marriage you end up facing every demon in your closet and becoming stronger for it.

 

That is the absolute f*cking gospel-truth right there, sister.

[Craig2425]

Well she's done it again. Told me that she's only trying because we have a kid. That she's forcing herself to try and she doesn't think she could ever be happy with me. She doesn't want to try again...

I made it clear that I wanted to and this was her decision but I want her to be happy.

I can't keep doing this. Being yanked in and out every couple days.

[marqueemoon4]

Well she's done it again. Told me that she's only trying because we have a kid. That she's forcing herself to try and she doesn't think she could ever be happy with me. She doesn't want to try again...

I made it clear that I wanted to and this was her decision but I want her to be happy.

I can't keep doing this. Being yanked in and out every couple days.

 

Craig, buddy.. time to put space in between you two. LC all the way only to discuss things about the kids. This torture will continue as long as you're always there for her. Step back, now... I know it sucks but you gotta do it.

[Craig2425]

Her response to me

Thank you!

[debtman]

That's tough Craig. I agree with marqueemoon4, if she can't make a decision just tell her that you can't ride the emotional roller coaster anymore and that if she decides she wants to make a real effort to work on things, you're open to that, but you have to move on with your life and then stick to LC and 180 as much as you can.

 

Hardest thing initially, but it will get you off of this yo-yo that you're riding.

 

Good luck and keep posting...

[Craig2425]

So she just text me saying she got tickets to the circus tonight and asked if I want to go.

I told her that I would really like to but can't due to all the back and forth. I really want her to want to try and this camt be good for our daughter to see us sleeping together(she slept with us at her grandmas house).

I don't get her at all.

[What_Next]

Craig, that is awful. I am sure she might be fighting her own internal demons in terms of deciding what she really wants, but she cannot do that at your expense. I agree with those that are suggesting LC.

 

She cannot miss what is right in front of her so to speak.

[Craig2425]

Yeah it's sucks. It's not fair to me or to our daughter.

That's why I said I can't go.

Thanks everyone for the support.

Had to get out by myself for a bit so I went for a hike.

[dreamingoftigers]

So she just text me saying she got tickets to the circus tonight and asked if I want to go.

I told her that I would really like to but can't due to all the back and forth. I really want her to want to try and this camt be good for our daughter to see us sleeping together(she slept with us at her grandmas house).

I don't get her at all.

 

 

Craig, these are the blow smoke up your ass tests. Have you looked into the 180?

 

The back and forth will settle if you hold the middle line. I personally think that if she says that she is only "trying for the kid" then I would back right off and just say that the door "may be open" if she chooses to change her mind but that you can't guarantee it.

 

As for the circus, turn down this one but if you do still want the marriage ( and trust me I know it gets harder with each blow) turn down that one but don't push an 'in or out' choice no matter how light.

 

Think of it as really really early dating. Coffee is just coffee until you test the waters out a bit more. If you can only see her for 15 mins at a time then that is the way it goes.

 

You are getting nowhere by being too available to have your chain yanked and by trying to get her to be 'in' or 'out.' I know that that is a very natural desire and it makes sense because you have a family and you are willing to work through it, but probably every conversation revolves around that choice, and she is way too triggered to make it.

 

Plus (I know this from stupid personal experience) everytime she deals a blow that she will reach out back partly because she doesn't want to lose you and partly because she is apologizing and showing that she is open. She won't admit it.

 

There is something going on in her head that makes her feel rejected or pressured and she can't enter back into the marriage like that. She needs to be accountable for her choices but by pressuring her in the slightest way, that will influence her choices. I cannot say this enough: do not ask or talk about the relationship. Stick to the 180 last resort. Become like Teflon and let the BS slide off of you. If she is saying that she is never ever going to work it out and then she invites you to the circus, DUH clearly she isn't sure.

 

Plus it has been said that it is really hard to leave a happy confident spouse.

Craig, I know that bullriding with a vice grip on your balks would be easier. But you don't have to stop and give up until you decide it isn't worth it and/or you see papers coming from her, and everything is final.

 

Your case isn't the worst ever. Your wife might have more issues then the UN but a lot if those triggers (especially likeability and abandonment) can be minimized with a few months of consistent behaviour.

 

You need to resist talking about the relationship if she brings it up too. If she asks "are you still open to trying?" you tell her that you have been thinking about it. If she asks "what does that mean?" you tell her that " there's a lot to consider and that you'd rather not talk about it now and focus on having a nice time." do not let her push you. Do not let her ultimatum you.

 

If she says "up or down, right now !" you go left. And stay left.

 

You don't give her security by giving into every request that she has, not by turning them all down. You show security by what you are willing to have as a boundary and sticking with it. You become a fixed point of consistency for her to refer to, not the hunter with the trap.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I am pushing you to keep going and you don't wish to. I tend to view support in this type of situation as go until the individual says "stop" and not out if exasperation, frustration or because they feel beaten at the moment. When they say "stop" because they plain-out don't want it anymore.

 

As long as you are not going in a sure direction "out" I will tend to give advice in how to stay in the game. Everyone knows how to get "out." Staying in is tougher and in the long run often more rewarding (completely depending on circumstance.)

 

So let me know if anything I post is offensive in any way. Thanks.

[Craig2425]

No one is offending me at all.

I'm here for advise and open to hear all views.

I told her I'm not going to the circus and as of right now I can't be there for her. She just yanks me around and that's not good for me.

I'm still open but only if she is ready so I'll just leave her be.

Again thanks everyone.

[worldgonewrong]

You should have asked her, "Do you mean LITERAL circus or FIGURATIVE circus like the one inside your head?"

[dreamingoftigers]

:lmao:

You should have asked her, "Do you mean LITERAL circus or FIGURATIVE circus like the one inside your head?"

[Craig2425]

Lol.

Gotta say that I'm pretty bummed about this.

[worldgonewrong]

Lol.

Gotta say that I'm pretty bummed about this.

 

In all seriousness, I understand.

But DOT's lengthy response on this seems really spot-on. Right now your wife has your nervous system in the palm of her hands. I mean this. It's unhealthy for you. So - as much as it hurts (and I know it does!), you need to give space. You're taking the right step, and I wholeheartedly support you.

 

Further: As this relates to my experience - I love my wife like mad. But I know that if I jump at everything, it'll just wear me down. So I'm giving her space and fighting my own basic natural reactions to try and "fix" everything. It hurts me to the *core* to do 180/LC/NC. but I have to. (hope this illustrates what I mean.)

Edited April 5, 2011 by worldgonewrong

[Craig2425]

So she wrote me back from my response to not wanting to go tomorrow.

I completely understand. I'm really sorry. I wanted to try for Daughter but I just can't. It's just too hard.