Refusal-Long time refused & considering leaving...

[Floridaman]

Floridaman,

 

You are desperately trying to get the love/intimacy/sexual life you want inside your marriage. You are working hard on this, it is consuming you. But what is she doing? How does she really express her love to you if it is not by the intimacy of sex?

 

Have you two been to marriage counseling? I think marriage counseling will open up a new realm of communication for you two. It will provide the safe environment for questions to be asked in regards to the sexual life inside your marriage. For example:

 

What are her reasons for denying you sex?

What is her view and her feelings in regard to sex?

Is she confident in her sexuality?

Does she understand the impact this has had on you?

What is her expression of love inside a marriage?

 

 

You would learn so much about your wife. Also, you could express yourself fully and be heard in real life.

 

The alternative to MC would be YOU taking a stand for yourself and initiating these conversations, asking the questions that need to be asked, listening to her every word, and expressing yourself fully. This would be great but I think working with a professional will have its advantages here.

 

Good luck to you. In my world, every problem is caused and solved with language aka communication. I see your situation no differently, and clearly there are some bold conversations to be had.

Ms. Joolie,

As I was mostly away from the laptop this weekend (she came to visit), I didn't have time to respond to your thoughtful post. Plan to later.

[Floridaman]

An update:

The three-day weekend went very well.

 

Like the other visit in Feb., it was like a great date. We did things together and with friends and didn't just remain in this empty house, though I would have relished just spending time with her on the couch, talking with her, holding her, touching her...

 

During our time together, I flirted with her, held her hand in public, and made it known to her that I was glad to be with her... Esp. during church.

She kept telling me to "pay attention (to the speaker)." I said, "I am -- to you...":laugh:

 

Whilst sleeping together during two of our three nights together, I found my hands caressing her in the middle of the night with little resistance.

 

Sunday afternoon, we got to holding and cuddling with each other.

During the longgggg kissing, I slowly began lightly touching her around the periphery of her chest on the outside of her shirt, and slowly went farther.

(I remembered the advice I was given to take it slowly and not put too much pressure on her).

 

It was kind of fun trying to unbutton her bra, and brought back memories of something that was often hard to do with one hand when we dated. She laughed as well and asked what I was "up to..."

 

It proceeded from there and the next thing you know, we were naked. I told her I wanted her to tell me when she wanted me as I wanted to give her maximum pleasure (didn't want to be a 5 min. man anymore), and how it's not all about me- but her pleasure.

 

We ML later that same eve. but was prematurely cut short bec. of pain she experiences. She told me it hasn't been enjoyable for her bec. LM brings pain in her. I'm going to recommend she visit a gyno.

 

So I'm pleased and think we can ramp this up, as I told her I wanted. Told her I didn't want this to be a one-time thing, like a birthday present.

[Floridaman]

She flew her this weekend and we had a 3-day weekend together.

It was a wonderful weekend.

 

We spent one of the days at the beach, sitting in the sun and talking. Had a nice meal that night in the resort city.

 

It was like a great date. God, I'm so glad I "wised up" and decided to begin to "date" her again.

 

Back in the room before bed time, we were holding each other and kissing on the bed. Said all the nice things like how much I love and need her, and am so lonely without her, and glad I married her and how none of the other women I dated in my 20s can hold a candle to her love....

 

........ I proceeded to caress her and didn't get deflected.

 

After a while, my hands went somewhere else, just for some outside the covers caressing (honestly). Tried to go inside the covers but got deflected. "Not yet....." was told.

 

No problem, as heading there was kind of fast... Was planning to take things slow, but got a green signal...

 

Learned later why I was deflected: she wasn't wearing ANYTHING... usually she has shorts and panties on...

 

So we were able to express our love that way, a way I want to express it much more often...

 

 

Took a lot of advice I've received about taking things slowly and letting the LM happen "naturally..." and in its time.

Tried not to make "plans...."

 

Did want to express my love sexually (I'm a guy, after all), but wasn't "planning" how it would go this way and that way. That was good bec. could have gotten my hopes crushed if the plan didn't go according to script.

 

Was planning for a long period of cuddling and see if it would "naturally" flow from there.

 

 

So things appear to be better on the physical end, so that's good.

 

Darn !! Forgot to tell her in the afterglow how I want to do this at least once a week, if not on work nights, maybe a couple of times a weekend, when she returns home.

Figured it would be easier to bring that kind of thing up after we've "enjoyed" each other rather than just out of the blue when she may put up some resistance.... Oh, well. Need to work on that next time....

[StoneCold]

and then she will have sex with him not because she wants to, but because of the fear of losing him... nice!

 

Bottom line is if things dont change in the sex dept the future is grim. So when pink says the following...

 

You should tell her: "Either you have sex with me or I leave this marriage.".

 

thats pretty much what will happen....like it or not.....I word it differently but the jist would be the same

 

 

OP....you need to get to the bottom of this fast because right now you are walking on eggshells in your own marriage....not good.

 

But I know how you feel....I've been there but I handled it differently

Edited April 25, 2011 by StoneCold

[Kristi can't sleep]

OPB StoneCold:

Bottom line is if things dont change in the sex dept the future is grim.

 

OPB PinkInTheLimo:

You should tell her: "Either you have sex with me or I leave this marriage.".

 

Hi FloridaMan,

 

Sorry you're having such a hard time. I'm having some problems in my own marriage that involves no sex, so I can sympathize with you - but, IMHO, the quoted posts were the best advice on this thread: no more asking! If it helps your own piece of mind, maybe one more shot - as a statement. Ie., "darling, it's seems like we've been taking about this problem forever, but nothings changed. I don't think there's anything more I can say besides I can't live like this. You know how much I love you, so I hope you give this some thought, but as far as I'm concerned, the ball is in your court" - period.

 

Sex is a tricky subject. Personally, I've asked my husband why he's become distant, if he was depressed, if he's having an affair, told him he could talk to me about ANYTHING and finally, if he wants a separation (next step is to tell him I want one). BUT, I'd stick my hand in the garbage disposal before I'd push him to sleep with me; it's a lose/lose proposition. If he didn't, I'd feel humiliated, if he did, it'd be hard to enjoy it knowing I nagged him into it. The only thing worse than getting pity sex is giving it.

 

Bottom line is, this is HER problem. All you can do is let her know that she can talk to you about what's going on, WHILE taking a stand that you're done guessing and bending over backwards. Either she will or she won't. But you have to decide if you can live this way. Also, was she like this when you met her? If so, the odds are slim she's going to change. She may just not be a sexual person and thought she found someone willing to accept that.

 

Last, and I'm just throwing this out there, is it possible your overwhelming her? You mentioned telling her before she arrived how you planned on handling the visit regarding this, sharing advice that you've gotten and things you had planned to say during the "afterglow" - I don't think that many people could handle that much emotional intensity: if the entire time you spend with her revolves around the lack of sex, that can be a LOT of pressure, and people have a knee-jerk reaction to balk when they feel pushed, besides, it's the exact OPPOSITE of the flow and spontaneity you want to find.

 

OPB FloridaMan:

She kept telling me to "pay attention (to the speaker)." I said, "I am -- to you..."

This shouldn't have gotten that far. Body language and cues from your partner are extremely important - I know you described this as a sweet flirty moment, but all I could picture was being groped in the movies at 16 when the guy kept trying to put his arm around you until you had to yell, "knock it the F** off!" lol. I'm NOT saying it WASN'T a sweet moment, you would know obviously, all I'm saying goes back to overwhelming someone: if it's not mutual, it's not fun.

 

I really hope this eventually works out for you! I really think if you started to pull away things would change - fast

[StoneCold]

OPB StoneCold:

 

 

OPB PinkInTheLimo:

 

 

Hi FloridaMan,

 

Sorry you're having such a hard time. I'm having some problems in my own marriage that involves no sex, so I can sympathize with you - but, IMHO, the quoted posts were the best advice on this thread: no more asking! If it helps your own piece of mind, maybe one more shot - as a statement. Ie., "darling, it's seems like we've been taking about this problem forever, but nothings changed. I don't think there's anything more I can say besides I can't live like this. You know how much I love you, so I hope you give this some thought, but as far as I'm concerned, the ball is in your court" - period.

 

Sex is a tricky subject. Personally, I've asked my husband why he's become distant, if he was depressed, if he's having an affair, told him he could talk to me about ANYTHING and finally, if he wants a separation (next step is to tell him I want one). BUT, I'd stick my hand in the garbage disposal before I'd push him to sleep with me; it's a lose/lose proposition. If he didn't, I'd feel humiliated, if he did, it'd be hard to enjoy it knowing I nagged him into it. The only thing worse than getting pity sex is giving it.

 

Bottom line is, this is HER problem. All you can do is let her know that she can talk to you about what's going on, WHILE taking a stand that you're done guessing and bending over backwards. Either she will or she won't. But you have to decide if you can live this way. Also, was she like this when you met her? If so, the odds are slim she's going to change. She may just not be a sexual person and thought she found someone willing to accept that.

 

Last, and I'm just throwing this out there, is it possible your overwhelming her? You mentioned telling her before she arrived how you planned on handling the visit regarding this, sharing advice that you've gotten and things you had planned to say during the "afterglow" - I don't think that many people could handle that much emotional intensity: if the entire time you spend with her revolves around the lack of sex, that can be a LOT of pressure, and people have a knee-jerk reaction to balk when they feel pushed, besides, it's the exact OPPOSITE of the flow and spontaneity you want to find.

 

OPB FloridaMan:

This shouldn't have gotten that far. Body language and cues from your partner are extremely important - I know you described this as a sweet flirty moment, but all I could picture was being groped in the movies at 16 when the guy kept trying to put his arm around you until you had to yell, "knock it the F** off!" lol. I'm NOT saying it WASN'T a sweet moment, you would know obviously, all I'm saying goes back to overwhelming someone: if it's not mutual, it's not fun.

 

I really hope this eventually works out for you! I really think if you started to pull away things would change - fast

 

 

I get the overwhelming part and figured that that may be part of it...

 

BUT

 

Its a nasty cycle where you dont know where it begins and where it ends...he's sexually straved so he beleives he has done/doing something wrong...so he does all this "crap" thinking it will fix it....but it just pushes her away...and he thinks "its not working do more"...and then she goes further.....and so on and so forth.... its a sh*t strategy but I understand where it comes from....again, speaking from experience.

 

Which is what led me to my orignal point defending pink...it ultimately gets down to the OP telling her "what time it is" and being prepared to walk. Because:

 

A) its not going to fix itself,

B) he cant leave his sex life entirely in her hands as its not hers to "own" and...

C) if he cant walk now it will only be a matter of time before he cheats later (likely).....you can only take so much and everybody has a breaking point (the question is where exactly does that point lie)

Edited April 25, 2011 by StoneCold

[giotto]

I think that when it comes to the point that you actually have to "ask" for sex (when you are married), the relationship is over. Or that part of it. Or all of it, if, for you, it's a deal breaker. Of course sometimes it's more complicated than that, but the result is still the same. Good luck! You are very patient man. I can tell she means the world to you.

[Kristi can't sleep]

StoneCold

...it ultimately gets down to the OP telling her "what time it is" and being prepared to walk. Because:

 

A) its not going to fix itself,

B) he cant leave his sex life entirely in her hands as its not hers to "own" and...

C) if he cant walk now it will only be a matter of time before he cheats later (likely).....you can only take so much and everybody has a breaking point (the question is where exactly does that point lie)

 

I agree. I also agree that the cause of her problem probably isn't that he's overwhelming her or she would've told him so. Skimming through his thread, the amount of time and energy he's invested in this amazed me. I guess I'd just like to see all that effort pay off for him, but unless the problem is under his control, what are the odds she'll change on her own?

 

It bothers me that he should feel grateful for affection. It makes you wonder if this woman grasps what she's doing to this guy. I think she's horrible. (sorry, FloridaMan, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think after not seeing you for so long, knowing that this is a problem for you, she needs to do a little better than 'I'm tired')

 

...and I do understand how it makes you feel - I'm going through it myself, and for a woman, humiliation is tacked on. I'm on this forum to admit what's going on to someone, even if it's to strangers, because I cant admit it to anyone in my actual life. BUT - even typing it makes me feel like I should change my signature to: "I haven't gained weight, let myself go, look like a troll, etc.,".

 

Then again, I haven't found a loophole for age, so maybe it IS me.

 

FloridaMan: I truly hope you find happiness with her or without her, but if she can't see how sweet it is that you'd go to such lengths to be with her, well, I think you deserve better.

[StoneCold]

StoneCold

It makes you wonder if this woman grasps what she's doing to this guy..

 

 

I'm pretty sure she knows...how could she not...what we dont know is what her MO is

[StoneCold]

I think that when it comes to the point that you actually have to "ask" for sex (when you are married), the relationship is over. Or that part of it. Or all of it, if, for you, it's a deal breaker. Of course sometimes it's more complicated than that, but the result is still the same. Good luck! You are very patient man. I can tell she means the world to you.

 

I agree with this..

 

but hes going to have to say something to her because its only a matter of time before this comes to a head....he either leaves, cheats or cheats and then leaves....but one way or another the sh*t is going to hit the fan and when that happens at least she cant say she wasnt warned. Plus, depending on what state he lives in sexual neglect is grounds for divorce and hes going to have to document this stuff.

[dreamingoftigers]

I'm pretty sure she knows...how could she not...what we dont know is what her MO is

 

FM has PMed with me way back, my guess is anxiety caused by strict religious conditioning. A tough nut to crack, but not impossible.

[dreamingoftigers]

FM. I personally think that you are one of those guys who will keep trying to turn the combination at the safe until you crack it open and it will turn out that the treasure in there is a double-portion of what you expected.

[giotto]

FM has PMed with me way back, my guess is anxiety caused by strict religious conditioning. A tough nut to crack, but not impossible.

 

In that case, she needs some serious therapy... FM is not going to crack the nut on his own.

[dreamingoftigers]

In that case, she needs some serious therapy... FM is not going to crack the nut on his own.

 

There are many ways to skin a cat....

 

(Not that I have experimented or anything.

[giotto]

There are many ways to skin a cat....

 

(Not that I have experimented or anything.

 

sure, but she needs to be compliant... is she even aware of her problems?

[dreamingoftigers]

My telepathy is a little fuzzy at this distance.

 

I have no idea.

[giotto]

My telepathy is a little fuzzy at this distance.

 

I have no idea.

 

sorry, since you were in contact with FA, I assumed you knew a little more... I have to stop assuming things... it's bad for my health...

[dreamingoftigers]

sorry, since you were in contact with FA, I assumed you knew a little more... I have to stop assuming things... it's bad for my health...

 

FA is my twelve step group LOL:laugh:

 

I don't know too much about her awareness of his side of the issue.

[giotto]

FA is my twelve step group LOL:laugh:

 

I don't know too much about her awareness of his side of the issue.

 

Quite funny (?) as an unintentional joke... I meant FM, obviously, although it sounds () like a radio...

[xxoo]

FM has PMed with me way back, my guess is anxiety caused by strict religious conditioning.

 

Floridaman--

 

If this is the case, why are you flirting with her and touching her in church? Especially when she is showing discomfort?

 

Also, while your wife probably doesn't know about your posts here--why do you have her pictures in your profile? You have been discussing your sexual life with her in detail. You are having problems, and seeking help, so that part is understandable. But it seems like an unnecessary invasion of her privacy to then post her pictures publicly. How do you think she'd feel if she discovered how exposed she is here? How would that set her back, with regards to her feelings for you?

 

I think the best thing you can do is focus elsewhere and stop pursuing her altogether. Be kind, but uninvested. Invest your energies and interests elsewhere (not in another woman). Give it a set amount of time (maybe a year), and see what happens. Some possibilities:

 

1. She misses the attention, and pursues you.

2. She barely notices, but you've moved on emotionally and are in a healthier place to make a decision about this relationship and the rest of your life.

3. She notices and gets angry, or depressed, or something else....but now SHE also has a problem, and she will be more motivated to work on the relationship.

4. ????? But at least there will be some change from the dynamic of You making Her the center of your life, while She barely tolerates your touch

[dreamingoftigers]

I personally think that the situation is a little mucky with them being in two places as well.

 

He goes for awhile in between seeing her and that can't help her foster an intimate connection as effectively either.

[giotto]

3. She notices and gets angry, or depressed, or something else....but now SHE also has a problem, and she will be more motivated to work on the relationship.

 

she's already got a problem, and a big one at that. Sorry, but I don't think all this stuff you mention will ever work if she doesn't solve her issues first.

[xxoo]

she's already got a problem, and a big one at that. Sorry, but I don't think all this stuff you mention will ever work if she doesn't solve her issues first.

 

From her perception, she doesn't have a problem. She's comfortable with the status quo. Of course I agree that she has a big problem! But us agreeing doesn't motivate her to change. She will only be motivated if she feels uncomfortable with the status quo.

 

I agree that nothing may "work" if "work" means she changes and wants sex with him. But I also see possibility #2 as a success, if Floridaman gets some distance from the situation and can see how unhealthy it is for him--and can walk away.

[soserious1]

Floridaman, you've mentioned more than once that intercourse actually physically hurts your wife due to her having completed menopause. Most women don't take HRT these days due to the very real, serious health risks associated with it but it would seem to me that some investigation into remedies that help your wife might be in order here.

 

You guys end up together for brief spurts of time, even women who don't suffer from hormonal issues end up sore and/or with UTI's from intense bouts of "honeymoon sex" I'd imagine that being in pain everytime you have intercourse would not be a turn on for her.

[giotto]

From her perception, she doesn't have a problem. She's comfortable with the status quo. Of course I agree that she has a big problem! But us agreeing doesn't motivate her to change. She will only be motivated if she feels uncomfortable with the status quo.

 

I agree that nothing may "work" if "work" means she changes and wants sex with him. But I also see possibility #2 as a success, if Floridaman gets some distance from the situation and can see how unhealthy it is for him--and can walk away.

 

xxoo, I'm an expert on women who know they have a problem but they pretend everything's fine... Jokes (?) apart, we don't really know whether she is aware of the problem or not... if she is not, then obviously FM distancing himself might do the trick, but if you really want my opinion, she will be happy she doesn't have to endure the constant nagging about sex...