Positive evidence of gaslighting

[sruben]

He got banned and all his posts removed from various threads. He's a troll, I expect he'll be back with a new username pretty soon frothing at the mouth about cheaters usually.

 

Well, that's good, he was pretty irritating... ;-)

[Owl]

So....I'd like to ask a "bottomline" question.

 

How, specifically, has your situation changed since you've first started posting here?

 

It's awesome that she's working through TFL with you...but even you feel that this could all be a ploy.

 

Beyond that...what has CHANGED in these months? (and please don't respond with "my attitude" or "my feelings"...I want to know what has changed IN THE RELATIONSHIP ITSELF...that's the key here)

[turnera]

sruben, have you ever read Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend? I think your biggest problem is you don't have any. So you can't truly put your foot down, because she knows you don't have any. You might want to read it.

[sruben]

So....I'd like to ask a "bottomline" question.

 

How, specifically, has your situation changed since you've first started posting here?

 

Very good question! This is a good time for me to take a look at that.

 

1) We're communicating. Not completely, open and honest, but when I started here, we were not communicating much at all. Easy to make assumptions (including wrong ones) when we're both doing that.

 

2) I'm no longer avoiding conflict. She still is, but that doesn't really matter.

 

3) I'm no longer allowing her to manipulate me with her tears (something MC last year told me, but I didn't internalize yet). Also, I began IC even after she manipulated me into cancelling the first appt. In addition, I did eventually tell her that I was seeing IC, which is something people here thought that I should do, and I agreed.

 

4) I'm working on not allowing her rage to manipulate me.

 

5) I'm standing up to her when she's wrong, even when she's raging or crying (like, when we had the budget fight awhile back -- I stood firm on not spending more than we make, no matter how justifiable you think the expenses are. As a result, she is no longer trying to find ways to stay home and is very actively looking for work which pays what she's used to making...and spending, and she even asknowledges that she needs to help pay off the debt we racked up last year.

 

6) She is actively doing things to work on the M -- trying to meet my needs, initiating ILY's (when she hadn't been at all the last 4 years), doing more around the house. She's even trying to rage at the girls less (far as I can tell -- at least hasn't done it any more when I'm around, and they haven't told me otherwise).

 

7) We resolved that she will NOT be taking any out of town jobs or jobs requiring lots of travel.

 

8) We resolved that we will maintain joint finances (this is what triggered me back into suspicion mode in the first place -- that she set up her automatic deposit into a separate account "because it didn't exactly work out well last time").

 

What HASN'T happened, yet? No truth about last summer (not even TT). She'll tell me what (she wants me to believe) DIDN'T happen, but is silent after that. I know that SOMEthing happened, WAY too many red flags and bizarre behavior, but she won't say what DID happen. Will I ever find out? Who knows? At this point, I think probably not, but I will say this -- I'm not clueless about it like I was last year. I WILL recognize any bizarre behavior, even things she DIDN'T do last year but that WW's typically do, if she begins to do them in the future. And I have told her that if that happens, D will be the next step.

 

It's awesome that she's working through TFL with you...but even you feel that this could all be a ploy.

 

Yep, could be. Actions speak louder than words. We'll see what actions she follows up with. Also, whether she ever admits having a primary LL or telling me what her EN's in the M are. If she doesn't, I can only conclude that either a) she is so self-unaware that she has no idea, or b) she knows but doesn't want ME to be the one to meet them, as some here have suggested.

 

Beyond that...what has CHANGED in these months? (and please don't respond with "my attitude" or "my feelings"...I want to know what has changed IN THE RELATIONSHIP ITSELF...that's the key here)

 

She is visibly trying. Things she says and does give me (and friends who know and have been watching) the idea that she WANTS to be in the relationship. She hasn't "checked out".

 

When I first arrived here, I was convinced that she was pursuing that travelling job as a prelude to checking out of the M, or at least stepping out. We weren't communicating. Once we started, she told me that she assumed I wanted her out of the picture because I didn't object to her taking the job. I told her we're both adults, we need to make our decisions based on what we think is best for our M and family, and I assumed her enthusiasm for the job meant that she didn't WANT to be here, and why should I try to force her to stay?

 

Oh, I also have come to the conclusion that my W is BPD -- which would explain a lot. What I wonder (but haven't yet asked) is why, if she reallly didn't want that job and was "praying against it", she didn't just tell them, no, she's not interested? I think she sees herself as one big victim of life, someone who doesn't act but who is acted upon by life/the world/others, and that if she'd gotten the job and we'd gotten D because of it (or because of what it enabled), that it wouldn't be her fault, life just happened to her.

 

Am I totally off-base, here?

 

And have I answered your question to your satisfaction? Or did I manage to avoid the issue you were trying to raise? Thanks for your question!

[sruben]

sruben, have you ever read Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend? I think your biggest problem is you don't have any. So you can't truly put your foot down, because she knows you don't have any. You might want to read it.

 

Yes, I did read that, at your suggestion! I finished it a couple of weeks ago. It was very good, and I even made mention of that to my W in our last discussion. I told her that if she decided to go outside the M that it would end in D. I don't recall, but I think I even told her that I had a couple of referrals from last year.

 

I was going to get into the boundary about having lunches (or other things) with MOTOS, but she effectively short-circuited that and I haven't figured out how to get back on track with that. Maybe you can help?

 

Okay, so when we got M'd we both agreed that if we ever found it necessary to have lunch with someone of the opposite sex that we would tell each other, BEFORE it happened, WHY we were doing so (business) and that we'd tell each other what transpired afterward. I've always held myself to that agreement even though I have one female friend who my W at one time said she gave me permission to have lunch with any time I wanted, and that I didn't even have to tell her about it. I've never done so because I wanted to "avoid any appearance of evil", but there it was. I've only had lunch twice with a woman who was my immediate supervisor (whom my W knows from another context) for business purposed and I told my W ahead of time, and I told her what we talked about afterward.

 

Last year, my W had lunch with that vendor OM from out of state "maybe once a week while he's here" but never followed up, never told me that she actually had lunch with him except that one time (which I have good reason to believe was not the first). When I confronted her with this, do you know what her reaction was? "I don't remember making that agreement." So she didn't tell me when she went with a male coworker to a hotel pool he has a membership at, either, until she let that slip recently. Guess if she had remembered our agreement, it wouldn't have applied since this wasn't "lunch"? I would say she doesn't seem to understand the spirit vs. the letter of the agreement, but since she says she doesn't remember the agreement at all...

 

Hmmm, okay, so I've been holding myself to a standard which she doesn't even remember was set. Does that mean I'm free to have lunch with my female friends again? And do I need to tell her? These are women I've never had romantic relationships with, BTW, so not suggesting RA's or anything. But this is a side issue.

 

My main question that I'd like your input on: What the heck do I do with this?

[Owl]

You answered my questions, and did demonstrate some good things that I don't think I'd realized.

 

My one thought after reading your reply would be to suggest to you that you sit her down, look her dead in the eye, and tell her that you're no longer going to accept hearing "what didn't happen" last summer. Tell her point blank that you know that something DID happen...you'll no longer sit and accept silence...and that she needs to tell you NOW exactly what happened, and what it is that she's been hiding from you. Point blank...no dodging or not answering questions, and no more evasions.

 

Tell her that you need the truth...the FULL truth...in order to move forward in fixing things in the marriage. Anything less=not being able to reconcile.

 

Good steps...just don't be afraid of INSISTING on what you need. Make sure that you have consequences for not meeting those needs, and that you're willing to enforce them if needed.

[turnera]

I was going to get into the boundary about having lunches (or other things) with MOTOS, but she effectively short-circuited that and I haven't figured out how to get back on track with that. Maybe you can help?

Just be honest and bring it up with her. "I've been thinking a lot about XYZ; this is how it feels to me. Tell me if you see it differently"

 

When I confronted her with this, do you know what her reaction was? "I don't remember making that agreement." So she didn't tell me when she went with a male coworker to a hotel pool he has a membership at, either, until she let that slip recently. Guess if she had remembered our agreement, it wouldn't have applied since this wasn't "lunch"? I would say she doesn't seem to understand the spirit vs. the letter of the agreement, but since she says she doesn't remember the agreement at all.

That's because she feels GOOD to do these things. You are telling her that, to choose you, she has to feel BAD. It's your job to make being with you feel GOOD. Ok?

 

My main question that I'd like your input on: What the heck do I do with this?

Communicate! Have you set up one hour each week to discuss the relationship? A good place to start.

[turnera]

You answered my questions, and did demonstrate some good things that I don't think I'd realized.

 

My one thought after reading your reply would be to suggest to you that you sit her down, look her dead in the eye, and tell her that you're no longer going to accept hearing "what didn't happen" last summer. Tell her point blank that you know that something DID happen...you'll no longer sit and accept silence...and that she needs to tell you NOW exactly what happened, and what it is that she's been hiding from you. Point blank...no dodging or not answering questions, and no more evasions.

 

Tell her that you need the truth...the FULL truth...in order to move forward in fixing things in the marriage. Anything less=not being able to reconcile.

 

Good steps...just don't be afraid of INSISTING on what you need. Make sure that you have consequences for not meeting those needs, and that you're willing to enforce them if needed.

I would only add that, before you do this, you institute a VERY STRONG Plan A - so that she has a reason to invest in the marriage. You know she is a selfish person. You just have to accept that. Therefore, you have to give her a REASON to want to please you by being honest. Do your homework first.