Positive evidence of gaslighting

[sruben]

So my sister calls me last night, I had emailed her earlier and mentioned my W's new job possibility and the travel (I did not go into how I felt about it, just a short msg. I preferred to talk to her on the phone. I'd do it in person, but she's OOT). She asked for details and my W was in the room, so I began telling her about it, the 75% travel. W pipes in and yells "It's only 50%, not 75%!" Everything W sent me in email says 75-80%. Mon-Thur is 4 days, and in elem school, I learned that 4/7 > .5 (or > 50%...actually it's 57%). If she has to fly out Sun afternoon, it's 4.5 days (64%)...and that's not counting those times when they'll want her to stay all weekend to "go live" or "for testing".

 

I let that one go, told her more details. W interrupted again, said whatever it was that I was saying wasn't right (although I was just repeating what W had told me). I told my sis "Here, I'll let you talk to her since I seem to be getting it all wrong". I never got the phone back, she left the room at one point. No big, I'll call sis later and find out what her take on it is.

 

Oh, before I forget: W did some googling, found a post by someone doing the same kind of job for the same co. which cited low morale and poor work/life balance. She showed it to me. I told her, "that's certainly something to think about, isn't it?"

 

Interesting that she's trying to minimize (to my sis at least, and perhaps to herself?) how much she'll be gone. This is such a habit for her! I wonder if she even realizes she's doing it?

[sruben]

Okay, so to those (including my IC) who think I'm obsessing too much, "going off the deep end..."

 

I triggered myself bad this morning. I was cooking breakfast for myself, W's cell phone was charging nearby. A TXT msg came in just before 7. I was curious, and although I haven't done this before, I clicked on "view". The msg said "Ok, just let me kno..." Nothing to that, really, except that the number it came from is not in her list of contacts. I guess she's not very efficient when it comes to managing her contact list. But I got curious, as people here say you should check the cell calls and TXT msgs (I do check the bill), so this time I thought I'd look at the TXT msgs on there. Not very many, but one was from or to a contact identified only as "2". Strange, okay, so I clicked on that one. It said "Luv u too. soooo bored n DD7 is burned out. glad to go3." sent yesterday at 2:49pm.

 

I thought "holy ****" (not a nice thought)! What in the world is this? So I took a pic of the screen, looked for any others, didn't find any. But wondering who she sent that to (it wasn't me) and why it was to this mysterious "2"?

 

. . . . . .

 

Okay, so check cell record on web site, find out it was to DSD16! Have to admit, I thought I was going to find it was to Coach studmuffin.

 

Guess I really do need to take a chill pill. I have some real ones, still haven't taken any, but I was speaking metaphorically. I need to step away from this for a few days and get some perspective...

[turnera]

sruben, I'm sorry if I offend you, but there's a real issue here, IMO, which is that for whatever reason, you take what she hands out, complain, get outvoted, and come some place like here to vent, while she still does whatever she wanted in the first place. Which only prolongs and solidifies her actions.

 

Maybe it's because you're the only guy in the house, IDK; I do know my husband often gets outvoted between me and DD19. I also know that, when that happens, and he gets grumpy about it, I get mad at him for giving in and then punishing me by being upset. If he doesn't want something, just freakin' say so and CHANGE something.

 

There's a lot of info available about what women need in their husband. The one thing that comes up most often is that, in today's immasculated society, women still need their men to lead. To run the family. To put their foot down when they're getting run over.

 

Im not suggesting you kick her to the curb. I'm suggesting you say "I am NOT happy any more and I need you to do something about it."

 

I'm not saying she's some monster. I know you love her, she's a competent mom, you have good times, all that. But you are not happy. And you deserve to be happy just as much as she does.

 

Hell, if nothing else, tell her that you two WILL be going to a marriage counselor so you can finally get all these issues out in the open and DO something about them.

[Church Bells]

Well, turnera, that's mighty generous of you. You don't know anything about my past, particularly before I was M'd since that hasn't come up.

 

A LOT of people are surprised at what I've put up with because I didn't use to put up with much. I was 38 and still single when I met my W for a reason: My average relationship time was five weeks. Sometimes they'd end it, sometimes I would, but if I saw something I didn't like and knew I couldn't live with, I just said so and didn't call them any more. Why waste time with someone you know you can't hang with.

 

At one point, there was this one gal about 7 years younger than me, a single mom with whose D I had become very close. Although we were never officially "dating", I spent many an evening (not the night) over at her place...more for the D than for her -- she had been M'd to a drug addict, M'd him to "fix" him, I eventually had to quit hanging out with her because she ended up getting into the drug scene herself. I spent WAY too much time with her because of her D (who once, at 4 years of age, told me that she wished that I were her daddy -- because I treated her a lot better than he did and I was around!).

 

It's possible I'm doing the same thing now because of my own DD7. I have accepted a lot of crap from my W for my D's sake that I wouldn't have otherwise. If I could be assured of having full custody of DD7, I'd file D in a heartbeat, knowing what I do now.

 

Your idea that I should "grow a pair" and kick my W to the curb is short-sighted and completely neglects the consideration of my D and my relationship with her. So forgive me if I don't just carelessly destroy my home life that way that you would. I wonder, do you have children?

 

Back to why I picked my W -- she presented herself as being a very godly and virtuous person who'd made a couple of bad decisions regarding M. Should I have been more wary of signs that, in hindsight, I now know are glaring red flags? If I'd known then what I know now, I am certain I would not have M'd her. But I did M her, and I have religious convictions that those vows mean something, at least to me. I'm not going to "cut bait and run" at the first sign of trouble. If I were, then I should have done so prior to making the commitment. Do you know the meaning of the word?

 

If I knew for certain that she did have an A (and 99% is not conclusive, there is still room for reasonable doubt), I would totally confront her and, from her reaction, determine if there were a future for our M and act accordingly.

 

I'm going to try to get her out on a drive tonight and discuss the boundary issues, which will almost certainly lead to discussing last summer. Might be the last time, we'll see...

 

sruben,

 

Your "righteous indignation" would be better served directed at your WW, not at turnera, who was merely stating the OBVIOUS, based on your own actions (or really lack thereof), rather than your words.

[sruben]

sruben, I'm sorry if I offend you,

 

Not all of your posts offend me, and actually I do appreciate the brevity and frankness of your posts. Just please try not to make assumptions about my motivations or history. It's not a simple as "I think she's cheating, doesn't care about my needs or wishes, so I'm outta here!" First off, DD7 is a major consideration (IC says I shouldn't D, I pointed out that DD7 seeing W cheat and me "just taking it" sets a bad example for her, he hasn't really responded to that, says I should just love her like Christ loves the church).

 

but there's a real issue here, IMO, which is that for whatever reason, you take what she hands out, complain, get outvoted, and come some place like here to vent,

 

I'm not here just to vent. Yes, there's that, but it's also cathartic and also helps me to understand the situation better. Those of you who have walked this walk (on either side) and care to reply (and I appreciate that you care to take your valuable time to reply. Thank you!) have valuable input beyond just "kick her to the curb" and that's what I'm here for.

 

I do not intend to "do nothing" forever. I WILL be addressing this with her.

 

I am still fearful that I might not be right about my suspicions, even if I am 99% certain, and that I will destroy my M by pursuing this unjustly.

 

What I AM 100% certain about: She has violated boundaries that we agreed on. Last year from Feb-Jun she had lunch many times with this out of town vendor and told me about it only once -- what I believe was the second time she did so, and only because her ex-boss and boss saw her. I don't believe she would have told me at all, otherwise.

 

Our agreement was that, if either of us found it necessary to have lunch with someone of the opposite sex, we would tell each other BEFORE it happened, and would talk about it AFTER it happened (where we went, what we talked about, etc). She stated in that one email that "we have lunch maybe once a week while he's here" and that was the second week he was here, therefore what I said above. She never mentioned the guy again until after I started asking questions in July, and then she would minimize, conceal, and excuse "Well, Honey, if you want me to work, I will be working with men...there's nowhere I can work where that's not the case. If you don't want me to work with men, then I can't work!" Stuff like that. My guess is that she thinks she's conforming to the letter of the agreement by telling me once, and that she's free to have lunch with him as much as she wants -- violating the SPIRIT of that agreement. Why would I want to know? The accountability is there to prevent the formation of inappropriate emotional attachments to members of the opposite sex, so knowing when, how often and for how long she has lunch with a guy is, I think, appropriate. She obviously didn't agree, and I will be dealing with that with her.

 

But I digress. You had a point to make:

 

while she still does whatever she wanted in the first place. Which only prolongs and solidifies her actions.

 

I do see that. That alone may spell the end of the M.

 

Maybe it's because you're the only guy in the house, IDK; I do know my husband often gets outvoted between me and DD19. I also know that, when that happens, and he gets grumpy about it, I get mad at him for giving in and then punishing me by being upset. If he doesn't want something, just freakin' say so and CHANGE something.

 

I've identified a couple of passive-agressive behaviors in myself (and six in my W!), but that isn't one of them. I don't punish her for it. I may not like it, but I do say something about it. If she disregards it and insists on her way (and she does this w.r.t intimacy issues as much as anything else), where can I then go with that? There's nothing left to do but accept it, because I can not change it. She's made that very clear. I do not punish her for it, passively or actively.

 

There's a lot of info available about what women need in their husband. The one thing that comes up most often is that, in today's immasculated society, women still need their men to lead. To run the family. To put their foot down when they're getting run over.

 

I've heard that. However, my W has some "mannish" qualities and is not a typical woman. Submission of any kind is a dirty word to her. Re: "Well, I've never lived my life according to what any PASTOR thought!" Hmmm, we're Christians, pastors teach from the Bible (where we go to church, any way) and not their own opinion, so who is she really rebelling against?

 

Im not suggesting you kick her to the curb. I'm suggesting you say "I am NOT happy any more and I need you to do something about it."

 

Sounds so simple. We have issues upon issues and it's hard to get back to the root of it all. Maybe I should just start there?

 

I'm not saying she's some monster. I know you love her, she's a competent mom, you have good times, all that. But you are not happy. And you deserve to be happy just as much as she does.

 

I agree, but I don't think she does. Either that or she's in denial about the things she does which make me unhappy. She's convinced herself that she's "done everything [she] can to show [me] that she loves [me]", doesn't know what else to do. I've tried to tell her, there always seems to be some reason to her that I'm not being reasonable. She's worn me down, for sure. I got to where I wasn't fighting her at all before last summer...which is another reason why I suspect EA, because I wasn't really trying to meet her needs, either. We were just living in the same house.

 

Hell, if nothing else, tell her that you two WILL be going to a marriage counselor so you can finally get all these issues out in the open and DO something about them.

 

THAT I think is an excellent idea. As of last summer, I'd been telling her for 3 years that we needed to do so, she always had some reason why she didn't want to, thought we could/should be able to work our problems out ourselves (then wouldn't lift a finger to do so). Last summer after all this broke, I suggested it again. She screamed, "I don't need a counselor, YOU DO, so YOU go see one!" Nothing changed, and by Oct before she quit her job, I started going. She got all upset again that I had and hadn't told her. I had told her that I was GOING to go, and I went. I still don't know why she was upset about that. THEN she wanted to go. I told her I didnt' want to surprise MC with her, that I would go alone the next week and tell her that W wanted to come, too. The next two weeks she did go with me, but the EA wasn't addressed. MC didn't seem to think I had anything, and suggested I just "let the past be the past" and move forward. She did make one good suggestion to my W. W would often complain that when I corrected her on something, she felt I was condescending. When she'd repeat back what I said to her, she would add ", you stupid idiot!" to it. I never said that, nor did I intend to convey such -- I don't know why she's prone to add that. It's like nothing she does is wrong, and to suggest otherwise is to call her stupid.

 

Longer story shorter: I went a total of 4 times, twice with her, then she quit her job and we changed insurance.

 

I've got my insurance connected to another place now (that therapist quit the practice). The IC I'm seeing, I know she wouldn't see, but that's okay -- I'm sure there are others there. She doesn't trust him because he's D, suffered 8 years of his wife's PA's, so she thinks he's skewed. He may be. I want a woman for MC so that W doesn't feel "ganged up on" -- is this a good idea? Or would she respond better to a man? I definitely agree that we need it, and that our M will ultimately fail at some point without it.

[turnera]

Have you read Boundaries in Marriage yet? You really really need to read it. Because that's what this is all about - you WANT to have boundaries, you SAY you have boundaries, but she tramples all over them with a Mac truck because she knows you'll never leave.

[sruben]

Have you read Boundaries in Marriage yet? You really really need to read it. Because that's what this is all about - you WANT to have boundaries, you SAY you have boundaries, but she tramples all over them with a Mac truck because she knows you'll never leave.

 

Is that a book or an article? I'd like to read it.

[turnera]

It's a book, by Townsend and Cloud. It is highly recommended, by a lot of people. Another good one is The Dance of Anger, which is along the same lines, but really more about learning how to say no to people while still reassuring them that you still love them. Like, "No, mom, I won't give brother Billy any more money. He has to learn to stand on his own two feet to be truly happy, and I love him too much to keep on propping him up."

[sruben]

It's a book, by Townsend and Cloud. It is highly recommended, by a lot of people. Another good one is The Dance of Anger, which is along the same lines, but really more about learning how to say no to people while still reassuring them that you still love them. Like, "No, mom, I won't give brother Billy any more money. He has to learn to stand on his own two feet to be truly happy, and I love him too much to keep on propping him up."

 

Available for Kindle, downloaded and next on my reading list. Thank you!

[Darth Vader]

Available for Kindle, downloaded and next on my reading list. Thank you!

 

 

Remember, cheating spouses will rewrite marriage history, they'll even deny they said things when they really did. That just goes to show you that a cheaters lies become the truth to them, eventually she will slip up really badly! Then you call her on it! Don't let her blameshift it onto you and/or wiggle out of it! Don't forget, when you find out the truth, it will likely be the trickle truth and not the whole truth!

[sruben]

Remember, cheating spouses will rewrite marriage history, they'll even deny they said things when they really did. That just goes to show you that a cheaters lies become the truth to them, eventually she will slip up really badly! Then you call her on it! Don't let her blameshift it onto you and/or wiggle out of it! Don't forget, when you find out the truth, it will likely be the trickle truth and not the whole truth!

 

Yes, I've already seen evidence of her revising history and her answers to questions and denying what she said when I journalled it. I hope she DOES slip up really badly soon. Maybe when she starts travelling for work, thinks I'm not able to watch her or know her whereabouts/doings. If she's doing what I think she is, she'll probably be very careless about it when away. I fully plan on contacting a PI where she goes and setting that up within 3 weeks and repeating periodically until I get what I'm sure will be there.

 

I am aware of TT and fully expect her to engage in it. I will explain the harm of TT to her and hammer her with questions until she gets the idea I'm not going to give up. WWIII is coming...

[sruben]

Have you read Boundaries in Marriage yet? You really really need to read it. Because that's what this is all about - you WANT to have boundaries, you SAY you have boundaries, but she tramples all over them with a Mac truck because she knows you'll never leave.

 

Just to follow up -- I've been enjoying this book, some very good points in it. It helps that it is 1) Christian-based, and 2) written by the same authors as their previous "Boundaries" book which my W has read (I don't know if she finished it -- she never really talked about it).

 

BTW, if she finds a lover in her out of town job, I WILL find out pretty quickly...and will have her served THERE with D papers, along with copies of the photos showing why. How's that for a boundary?

[turnera]

AMAZING.

 

I would bet that, if you did that, she'd be back in town and at your front door so fast that the speed will turn you around in circles.

[Windsurf66]

How, exactly, would a PI do that? When I spoke with PI's last summer, it seemed like there was very little they could actually legally do. It's not like on the soap operas where they can sneak cameras into hotel rooms and stuff. They could get ahold of M & D records, but that's public record -- I could go to the County Clerk's office and probably get the same thing.

 

But I would be very interested in knowing what you believe they could find out, in case I need that for any future relationship (should I find myself single again and be so inclined...not sure right now I would be).

 

That's a nice thought, but how would you do that without destroying your relationship? My W already felt "interrogated" by our first date, and I can see why -- I did hit her pretty rapid-fire with the questions. She even started crying at one point, but did answer all my questions (which is why I thought she was worth a shot -- didn't seem to be defensive or hiding anything at that time, although I later learned things which should have been included). I told her I asked her those things because, here I was, dating a woman who'd been D'd 3 times and I really wanted to know whether she was just going to D me after a getting bored with me a few years later or something. She said she understood.

 

Hindsight is always 20-20. If you've managed to make better choices, I commend you. Are you M'd now?

 

I guess, the PIs, will have their trade secrets and connections to dig up things abt the person, assuming there are some nasty things to be dug out.

 

I would be interested to know about the divorces with as much info as possible; the reasons, how she behaved, what the exHusbands have to say abt her.

 

I guess the tests are meant to subtly test her actions, not verbal interrogations, verbal stuff are never really accurate. And if the r/s is destroyed in the process, well at least you know it wasn't strong enough to be her fourth marriage. You know, you can still test her actions even now to assess her sincerity towards the marriage like asking her to give up the travelling job that you are not comfortable with, and see how defensive she is

[Chrome Barracuda]

Dude, why are you doing any of this???

 

She filed for divorce 3 times, cannot have a stable relationship, has probably cheated on you, is rewriting the marriage?

 

Goddamn why torture yourself! just give one last boundary, if she does leave it's over!

 

Is that do F-ing hard, Your only putting yourself through unnecessary pain. why prolong this joke of a marriage, you guys dont have a true partnership, She does what she wants with little consideration for your feelings, there is no joint agreements, Shoot you guys arent even on the same page.

 

How much are you going to take? Are you EVER gonna take action, all this talking is frankly making me sick. Action talks. BS walks!

[turnera]

but how would you do that without destroying your relationship?

sruben, honestly, don't you think that this is the crux of your relationship, AND the crux of your problem?

 

A typical husband would be furious at the way she treats you. Would probably have divorced her by now, because he respects himself too much to accept such shoddy treatment. You have a bit more compassion, or patience, or just plain fear of abandonment. I don't know which it is, but I think that everyone here would agree that it is NOT working, to be the nice guy. The woman you married does not, CAN not, respect a nice guy.

 

If I had to be honest, I would tell you that she is the spitting image of my old best friend's mother. By the time I met my friend, in 7th grade, her mother was on her 7th husband. SEVENTH. Because she kept picking guys who she walked all over, and they finally got fed up. I remember, in all my 7th grade wisdom, looking at her husband and thinking "what an idiot!" When she got what she wanted, she was an AMAZING wife, each guy couldn't believe how lucky he was to catch her. When her husband started balking at what she wanted - which was basically to have the safety and security and money of a marriage (through a guy dumb enough to pay for it) while still being single - she ditched him. And never saw anything wrong with it.

 

When you finally man up and tell her enough's enough, she will leave you. And look for the next sucker.

 

Sorry, but that's what I see.

[Windsurf66]

sruben, honestly, don't you think that this is the crux of your relationship, AND the crux of your problem?

 

A typical husband would be furious at the way she treats you. Would probably have divorced her by now, because he respects himself too much to accept such shoddy treatment. You have a bit more compassion, or patience, or just plain fear of abandonment. I don't know which it is, but I think that everyone here would agree that it is NOT working, to be the nice guy. The woman you married does not, CAN not, respect a nice guy.

 

If I had to be honest, I would tell you that she is the spitting image of my old best friend's mother. By the time I met my friend, in 7th grade, her mother was on her 7th husband. SEVENTH. Because she kept picking guys who she walked all over, and they finally got fed up. I remember, in all my 7th grade wisdom, looking at her husband and thinking "what an idiot!" When she got what she wanted, she was an AMAZING wife, each guy couldn't believe how lucky he was to catch her. When her husband started balking at what she wanted - which was basically to have the safety and security and money of a marriage (through a guy dumb enough to pay for it) while still being single - she ditched him. And never saw anything wrong with it.

 

When you finally man up and tell her enough's enough, she will leave you. And look for the next sucker.

 

Sorry, but that's what I see.

 

Gee, 7 husbands. I guess she must have accummulated quite alot when she divorced each time and get half the assets what a good way to make money!!

[turnera]

Gee, 7 husbands. I guess she must have accummulated quite alot when she divorced each time and get half the assets what a good way to make money!!

You would think. All I knew was my friend had enormous buck teeth, but it was her mother who had braces. Hated that woman.

[Windsurf66]

You would think. All I knew was my friend had enormous buck teeth, but it was her mother who had braces. Hated that woman.

 

Since your friend's mother wants the safety, security and money in a marriage, but still remaining single in her behaviour, she is probably more suited for an open marriage. I guess we have all kinds of humans in this world

[Church Bells]

How much are you going to take? Are you EVER gonna take action, all this talking is frankly making me sick. Action talks. BS walks!

 

My sentiments EXACTLY ... sruben is all about the book reading, hand wringing and belly button gazing, and damn near NOTHING about ACTION.

 

He is just ANOTHER aimless BH who won't set appropriate boundaries, and wouldn't enforce them if he did. He just wants to come here, start multiple threads to commiserate about his problems, but the one thing we know for sure, is he IS NOT going to DO anything about it.

[turnera]

I don't think that's true. Some people take longer to reach a change than others. And he still doesn't have a smoking gun, so it's understandable to not move without it. Tons of inappropriate behavior that pushes the boundaries, but no getting caught in the act. But I think that's the point he's at now...maybe even hoping to get evidence, so he can move on it.

[sruben]

I'm sorry, Ruben, I have been a bit confused about your situation. I think I may have missed a thread or two.. but I have to ask: Do you have absolute, irrefutable positive evidence that she is cheating on you or has cheated on you in the past?

 

No, and hence, my hesitation to act.

 

Because of things going on in my family, I missed the opportunity last Fri to take her on a drive to address some of these issues. I also hadn't started taking my AA meds. I started that today (was having trouble getting focused at work, wild mood swings, don't know why), and it seems to have levelled me out. Not noticing any bad side effects.

 

This latest book, Boundaries in Marriage, has some very helpful insights. I hope to finish within a couple of days. I think the concepts will come in handy when I talk to her this weekend, and I'm determined to do so at some point then because it will be the 1-year anniversary of the day she came home in mourning over whatever "didn't happen" at work up to that point. She's had a year to process and heal. I've had a year to obsess and congeal. Time to catch up...

[sruben]

I don't think that's true. Some people take longer to reach a change than others. And he still doesn't have a smoking gun, so it's understandable to not move without it. Tons of inappropriate behavior that pushes the boundaries, but no getting caught in the act. But I think that's the point he's at now...maybe even hoping to get evidence, so he can move on it.

 

Exactly! Oh, for the want of a smoking gun (or penis, as some have put it)!

 

I am trying to be patient and give this M every chance it deserves (and I made the commitment to do so 8 years ago), but sometimes I think it would be easier to just let her go without any protest, send a PI, get what I need and file. Then again, there's a part of me that says, "if you're going to do that, you should hold off long enough for her to pay off the debt she rang up second half of last year!" Evil, I know.

 

I still feel the need to make one last-ditch effort to communicate and attempt to repair what we have. if she's willing, maybe we can still make it work, if she'll come clean and we can work together to fix this. If she's NOT willing, well...then I'll have my answer.

 

Don't know why the other posters seem to think I should have solved this a day or two after I showed up here!

[turnera]

There's one thing I don't think I've seen with you yet, and that is point blank letting her KNOW that you will NOT stay with her if things don't improve. Sometimes, that's all you need to get a half-a$$ spouse to wake up and realize what she's about to lose.

[sruben]

There's one thing I don't think I've seen with you yet, and that is point blank letting her KNOW that you will NOT stay with her if things don't improve. Sometimes, that's all you need to get a half-a$$ spouse to wake up and realize what she's about to lose.

 

That's coming soon, hopefully Fri. I need to get some documentation in place in case I need to show her. She thinks that I suspected her of infidelity because of having had lunch with certain friends who were D! She doesn't seem to understand that I reached out to those particular friends at that particular time last year BECAUSE I suspected and hoped one of them could tell me I was nuts, going crazy jealous, needed to get a grip. To a man, they all said, "Dude! I'm so sorry." One suggested PI (which I did, nothing, it was over by then), another "Just love her like Christ loves the church, if she's worth it, she'll come around", lots of encouragement. Some could understand if I chose to D, but said they hoped it didn't come to that. And this was when I had only 3 circumstantial pieces of evidence plus her behavior in trying to conceal, deny and gaslight.

 

I need to be able to show her the timeline and how the various things fit into it as to WHY I believe what I believe. May not make a difference to her, but maybe it'll move her to come clean. Hope rings eternal, but if she doesn't, well... this M isn't going to last long. Some days I barely feel any love for her at all...