Positive evidence of gaslighting

[sruben]

Well, I would never take a job that took me for most of the week away from my husband. It would be sooo painful to be away from him that long because I love him so much. I would be miserable. That she is eager to do that speaks volumes in my opinion..

 

Um, yeah, kind of hard not to see that, although she has asked me a couple of times if she should take the job. Because she accused me that one time last year about being a "control freak" (and she later took it back, saying she was the control freak), I am careful about "telling" her what to do. I told her that it would be hard on me, both because I'd miss her and logistically, taking care of 3 kids and getting them where they need to go. But DSD16 gets her provisional license soon and could probably handle getting herself and DSD14 to and from [separate] schools. W even said she could use HER car, since she won't be here to need it herself. I also told both DSDs that I would need to rely HEAVILY on their help if their mom works out of town (housework, keeping schedules straight, etc).

 

But now that you mention it, I don't recall seeing any reaction to the part about it being hard on me missing her. Am I so wrapped up in my own thoughts that I didn't notice? Or did she just not react?

[Doing it Since '78]

Sruben,

 

I have tried to hang in there with you, but is it possible that you ae the one who is crazy? These last few rants of yours defy logicial thinking bro, no offense

 

I'm not going to call you crazy today, but bro, you WILL be crazier than a $ hithouse rat if you keep overanalyzing all of this stuff your folks is doing (or not doing??), take a step back, and chill

 

Refocus, and get your $ hit together, it's for your own good bro-YOU ARE TOO OBSESSED WITH THIS-STOP NOW!!!!!

[turnera]

What am I afraid of? Truly? I am afraid that I might be wrong, that I might be destroying my marriage and my family for something that's not true, regardless of how it looks.

 

Has my W helped me to find the truth? No, she has engaged in concealment, minimizing, misdirection and some outright lies, but has never been open to dealing with this. I agree, that makes it look not too good.

The point I'm trying unsuccessfully to make is that this 'quality' of a marriage may be beneficial for her, but it's tearing you apart. So you have to ask yourself if such a marriage is worth it, even with kids involved. If you end up hospitalized because of her selfishness and indifference, how does that help the kids?

 

Yes, have you not been following along? I have seen IC three times, now (including yesterday), plus a couple of long phone calls.

I'm sorry, I have a hard time following everyone and remembering all the details. I'm glad you're getting help.

 

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but you seem so stuck, that it seems like something has to change, so I guess I'm trying to push your buttons to get you see that crossing point. I've seen a lot of husbands just give up and accept they have a 'promiscuous' wife for a lot of reasons; and spend the rest of their lives completely miserable because they erred in judgment in marriage. Honestly, I'm not sure I believe that Jesus meant for that to happen.

 

T/J, I'm currently reading a phenomenal book called The History of Christianity. I really think you'd enjoy it.

[sruben]

Sruben,

 

I have tried to hang in there with you, but is it possible that you ae the one who is crazy? These last few rants of yours defy logicial thinking bro, no offense

 

I'm not going to call you crazy today, but bro, you WILL be crazier than a $ hithouse rat if you keep overanalyzing all of this stuff your folks is doing (or not doing??), take a step back, and chill

 

Refocus, and get your $ hit together, it's for your own good bro-YOU ARE TOO OBSESSED WITH THIS-STOP NOW!!!!!

 

It's entirely possible! Why do you think I'm going to IC? His focus is on dealing with my emotional state, not the poss EA/PA, and yes, first time I went he said I need to stop obsessing. I'm working on it. Doesn't evaporate overnight...

[Windsurf66]

The out of town job sounds weird. The wife knows that OP is already highly suspicious and yet she is willing to risk her marriage by deepening the issues with an out of town job. I just dun see a good reason for her to do so, unless the whole family is in great financial difficulties.

 

But it might be a good opportunity to hire a PI to investigate her during this period like what the OP is planning to do.

 

How is the OP's relationship with the wife now? Is she emotionally distant, easily irritated, quarrelsome, lack of sex, not spending enough time with family?

 

But even if there is no affair during the job, she might just be preparing financially for a divorce. Some woman are calculating and cold-hearted when they have decided to end a marriage. They planned years in advance and drop the bomb when it is most unexpected

[ufo8mycat]

Well, I would never take a job that took me for most of the week away from my husband. It would be sooo painful to be away from him that long because I love him so much. I would be miserable. That she is eager to do that speaks volumes in my opinion..

 

Volumes about what? Everyone who works away doesn't love their partner as much as those that work close to home?

 

I would be curious if the OP's wife is using the job as an escape but you can't draw conclusions from the fact that someone travels a lot for a job.

 

My husband travels extensively for work and I am not miserable. He loves his work and I don't think it says speaks volumes about anything to do with me.

 

The difference is that we are both OK with it. The OP isn't and it is this mistrust and insecurity that needs to be addressed

[sruben]

The out of town job sounds weird. The wife knows that OP is already highly suspicious and yet she is willing to risk her marriage by deepening the issues with an out of town job. I just dun see a good reason for her to do so, unless the whole family is in great financial difficulties.

 

Exactly. We're not in great financial difficulties (from where I stand -- my salary just barely covers all the necessities), but she likes to spend $$$ on fun stuff for her or for the girls. She slowed down quite a bit after she quit her last job, but when she got the current low-paying one she started spending over twice what she was making. We fought about it, I told her we can't spend more than we make. She's capable of pulling in 6 digits, and in her interview this morning, they told her there was even potential for $200-300K! I can't even imagine that. So, that's her solution. Hopefully what she said at the end of the fight isn't true -- that even if she made $100K she'd still spend more than she made (obviously not for necessities).

 

But it might be a good opportunity to hire a PI to investigate her during this period like what the OP is planning to do.

 

And the bonus is that she'll be financing a good part of it! ;-)

 

How is the OP's relationship with the wife now? Is she emotionally distant, easily irritated, quarrelsome, lack of sex, not spending enough time with family?

 

It varies day by day, but lately...sex is 2-3 times per month if I push for it (once if I don't), she's irritated with the kids all the time, I hardly ever see her acting loving toward them (like just sitting on the couch next to one), easily irritated, seems like she has a hard time following a simple conversation with me (like maybe her mind is elsewhere -- she can't focus on the details and keeps asking me to repeat them), she's always been somewhat emotionally distant.

 

From 3 weeks ago to about a week ago, she HAD been getting a lot friendlier to me, initiating ILY's pretty often for her (more during that two weeks than the last four years), but she seems to have gone back to "normal" (only ILY in response to mine, not really reaching out emotionally.

 

But even if there is no affair during the job, she might just be preparing financially for a divorce. Some woman are calculating and cold-hearted when they have decided to end a marriage. They planned years in advance and drop the bomb when it is most unexpected

 

That has certainly occurred to me. Guess I better use what she brings home to pay down our debt as quickly as possible.

 

BTW, I am expecting that. I don't know that she'll do that, but if she meets someone she'd rather be with and doesn't want to eat cake any more...why wouldn't she just D and move on?

 

The sad part for me is that that thought doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I feel like I've already been rejected and the legal part would just be a formality. :-(

[turnera]

If she takes that job, the first thing I would do if I were you is to change who pays what. Start using HER paycheck to pay the bills and put yours in a savings account that she can't touch. After all, if she divorces you, she'll expect YOU to pay child support.

 

Her comment about she'll continue to spend twice what she makes...YOU have control over that, sruben. You really do. YOU have the ability to change how finances are handled, even if it's just to change where your paycheck goes. Being the nice guy is NOT working for you.

[sruben]

Volumes about what? Everyone who works away doesn't love their partner as much as those that work close to home?

 

No, not what she's saying. What she said was, given our circumstances, it's telling that she seems eager to be away from me.

 

This isn't the lifestyle we talked about having when we got M'd. She knew I wanted us to be together, neither one of us was travelling regularly for work. She also knows it's hard on me when she's gone on weeklong training trips before (about a half dozen times in the last 4 years...not TOO bad, survivable certainly, but not great for me). I have to somehow figure out how to get 3 girls to various things while working full-time myself and taking classes half-time (although that will be over very soon).

 

I would be curious if the OP's wife is using the job as an escape but you can't draw conclusions from the fact that someone travels a lot for a job.

 

Maybe. Sometimes, the way she treats the kids (all hers, BTW, just one is mine although I love the other two just as much as if they were), it seems to me like she really doesn't want to be a mommy any more (last Friday when I got home from work, she was complaining that she'd heard nothing but "mommy, mommy, mommy" all day -- her first day off in a couple of months). I think she feels put upon by me wanting any kind of attention from her, too, which is part of why doing 180 doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. I can certainly find other things to do.

 

My husband travels extensively for work and I am not miserable. He loves his work and I don't think it says speaks volumes about anything to do with me.

 

No, but I'm guessing that you were both all right with this when you got married? At least you are in agreement together about it.

 

The difference is that we are both OK with it. The OP isn't and it is this mistrust and insecurity that needs to be addressed

 

Yep, definitely going there. Probably tomorrow evening, if I can get her alone (probably take a drive again like last Fri).

 

BTW, she doesn't trust me, either (not that I've done anything or would -- especially not after all I've learned and seen about infidelity and the damage it leaves behind. I'd rather just D her than put my family through that, if I didn't want to be with her any more. Being a Christian, I believe in being committed, so leaving just because she "doesn't do it for me any more" isn't a valid reason, but if she's broken the M covenant, that's a different story. But even Christians disagree on that. Some (my IC and one BFF) believe you shouldn't D even then -- that God is more concerned about her salvation and my spiritual growth than what she may be doing outside the M. I have a hard time with that point of view, doesn't seem right to me. Plus, what do the kids learn when they see mommy "hooking up" with other guys (if she's in fact doing that) and no consequences? That I'm a doormat?

[turnera]

The more you describe her, the more I see a woman who got married and had kids because she was supposed to but who in reality is a selfish, self-serving person who basically is fine with people as long as they don't get in her way. Kids included.

[sruben]

If she takes that job, the first thing I would do if I were you is to change who pays what.

 

Definitely! I think it's reasonable that she pay half the necessities (she'll be making about twice what I do to start, not including bonuses (which, while not guaranteed, historically have been consistent, economy notwithstanding) and helping to pay down the debt I bailed her out of last year.

 

She also said that she had promised to help pay down my student loan.

 

Start using HER paycheck to pay the bills and put yours in a savings account that she can't touch.

 

We live in a community property state. I don't think there IS a place I can put money that she can't get to it.

 

When she made that comment about spending, I took the money I saved for our D's private school tuition and moved it to an institution she'd have a harder time physically accessing, but I asked them to put an alert on my account if anyone else but me tried to make a transaction. They said they couldn't do that. So I just have to hope she doesn't get wind of it. Then again, if she starts earning that much, she probably won't care what I'm doing with that.

 

After all, if she divorces you, she'll expect YOU to pay child support.

 

Our community property state likes everything to be 50-50. When she D xH#1, the decree said that he had to carry the kids' health insurance and he had to pay a percentage of the difference between his higher income and her lower in child support.

 

If she's making potentially 2-4 times as much as I currently do, I think I'll come out on the better end of that. She certainly couldn't claim alimony (and didn't from her previous xH's).

 

Her comment about she'll continue to spend twice what she makes...YOU have control over that, sruben. You really do. YOU have the ability to change how finances are handled, even if it's just to change where your paycheck goes. Being the nice guy is NOT working for you.

 

You're right it's not, and that's why I stopped being so nice. The last fight we had over finances was after I read NMMNG -- it helped change my attitude and I stood my ground, kept hammering on the point that we can't spend more than we make, you just can't do that. She pushed back in various ways, but I did not give in. That's why she started looking for a higher-paying job in earnest to begin with. On some level, she must have known I was right. I appealed to her experience: She'd always told me that in her previous M's that she had to be the responsible one financially, so I reminded her of that and added, "so you KNOW how this works!"

 

She quit whining about having to find another job at that point, put on her big girl panties and started getting it done.

 

There ARE local jobs she could have that make more than I do (like her last job), but nothing 6-digits like what she's working toward now.

 

Maybe I should just shut up and enjoy the $$$ while it lasts. DSD14 says she doesn't think her mom will like working away from home and will quit without another job in just a few months. We might both get surprised...

[sruben]

The more you describe her, the more I see a woman who got married and had kids because she was supposed to but who in reality is a selfish, self-serving person who basically is fine with people as long as they don't get in her way. Kids included.

 

Hmmmm. You know, you just reminded me of something that I haven't thought about in several years.

 

When we first met and were getting to know each other, she told me more than once that DSD16 was a "reconciliation baby", that she and xH#1 had almost split up at the 8-year mark (where we're at now). However, as these stories go, that didn't really work. Nevertheless, two years later DSD14 was born, but xH#1 had already checked out of the M by then. She told me "He never even HELD that baby!" and DSD14 has issues with men to this day (she likes boys, though...was strutting her stuff on the way to Vball practice this morning while walking by a field of football players at school! We're in trouble with this one, I'm telling ya!). The girls were 6 & 4 when I met their mom (my W).

 

The girls were 4 & 2 when my W's D with xH#1 was finalized.

 

Sometimes my W can be very loving toward the children (and toward me, for that matter), but I'd say these days it's the exception rather than the rule. She's more interested in what she wants to do most of the time. She will "help" them with school projects when those come up, but sometimes that's not the best thing. She's kind of a control freak and won't let them do things their way, is afraid to let them fail or to earn a grade on their own merits. My W has got some of the highest grades in my DSD's classes! ;-O

 

So your point certainly has the ring of truth to it...

[Windsurf66]

 

BTW, I am expecting that. I don't know that she'll do that, but if she meets someone she'd rather be with and doesn't want to eat cake any more...why wouldn't she just D and move on?

 

The sad part for me is that that thought doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I feel like I've already been rejected and the legal part would just be a formality. :-(

 

Maybe she has not met someone else yet, but has or in the process of checking out of the marriage. Hence the emotional distance and the lack of intimacy.

[sruben]

Maybe she has not met someone else yet, but has or in the process of checking out of the marriage. Hence the emotional distance and the lack of intimacy.

 

Honestly, I think she did that four years ago. Our sex life (I thought, any way) seemed to be mutually satisfactory. All of a sudden, after having taken two years off to care for DD7 after her birth and sometime after she'd gone back to work, I reached out for sex and got the "I don't want sex, I really don't even like it, in fact most of the time it hurts" speech. A couple of times in subsequent talks (not fights) she recanted the "most of the time it hurts" and just tries to get me focused on the fact that she wants it less frequently than I do. Well, duh, I've heard that's the situation with most men & women, but her comments right after that speech (after I'd left the room to think) were troubling. One was she said "I feel like I've just ended another M", and the last one she said before leaving me alone with my grief was "Well, just don't go tell any of your friends. I'd rather die!"

 

I was very bummed at that moment that she seemed more concerned about who knew about our problem than how I felt about it! I guess I should have read the writing on the wall back then. I was naive, what can I say? I didn't even suspect an affair until the 6th year, and we had a reconciliation so I dropped it, wasn't even suspecting it during the 7th summer until it was apparently over...

[turnera]

Hmmm. If she cares that much about what people think about her, I would definitely start bringing people into this.

[sruben]

Hmmm. If she cares that much about what people think about her, I would definitely start bringing people into this.

 

Oh, I have. She doesn't know about it because they're my friends and not hers. But the thing is, I don't know WHY she cares what my friends think.

 

I'm not sure she really does care -- between asking me 4 years ago not to tell my friends about our sexual problems (which I didn't know about before that night) and her manipulating me into cancelling my IC appt the first time, here's what I think: She's trying to isolate me.

 

Isn't working. I didn't go blab it to ALL of my friends, but I certainly brought two of my groomsmen (BFF's), pastor, IC and a couple of family members in on it. They have all provided advice, encouragement and prayer, which is probably why I'm NOT totally nuts, yet. Oftentimes, one or more of them will talk me down from an anxiety high back to more rational thinking. Just had lunch with one of them just now. He's a good listener. I'm afraid I gave him a firehose full, though (he'd been out of town since prior to the Coach studmuffin incident...the hearing or which actually spun his head! So I guess my reaction is not out of touch with reality, but that whole thing is just weird...).

 

What else should I do? I haven't considered bringing her familiy in on it, yet, since I don't have anything concrete. She'd just say, "I don't know, one day he just got this crazy idea that I've been cheating on him, I don't know what to do!" Maybe she's hoping I'll file for D so she doesn't have to (since she did all 3 times before and felt guilty about it).

[turnera]

I'd make a list of the things she has done. Get it all down in a list so the preponderance of evidence looks pretty damning - if not for a full-out affair then at least a VERY unloving, unsupportive wife. Take that list and go visit her parents and/or her siblings. Tell them you want to stay married to her, but she's driving you away with these activities. List them. See what they say. I DO think it will matter if you go to someone SHE cares about.

[sruben]

I'd make a list of the things she has done. Get it all down in a list so the preponderance of evidence looks pretty damning - if not for a full-out affair then at least a VERY unloving, unsupportive wife. Take that list and go visit her parents and/or her siblings. Tell them you want to stay married to her, but she's driving you away with these activities. List them. See what they say. I DO think it will matter if you go to someone SHE cares about.

 

Hmmm, that's a tough one. She has only one sister w/ brain dmg and her dad...who lives out of town. She has aunts and uncles, too, but the last few years she's kind of withdrawn from all of them.

 

She does have one cousin with whom we've been meeting for supper on Sat's since just after the big fights last summer (and her cousin's family -- DD7 has a cousin 6 yrs younger in that family, they're pretty close).

 

My W and her cousin grew up together.

 

I ALMOST old the cousin' H about the Coach studmuffin thing last Sat, but couldn't get him away from the family. They know who he is, I think (they both used to work at the same school). I do know that she cares about what this cousin thinks of her and values the closeness of that relationship. But I will bet she's spun her already with the "H just went crazy and thinks I've been cheating on him". I can't see why she wouldn't have shared this, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

I would hate to negatively affect the only real close friendship she has, but you're probably right. If I do this, she'd be the one to tell.

 

Do I have enough to go to her with, without appearing crazy or paranoid?

[sruben]

(and her cousin's family -- DD7 has a cousin 6 yrs younger in that family, they're pretty close)

 

That should read "6 mos" not "6 yrs". Parallels are often drawn between DD7 and her little cousin, and my W and her cousin "having been princesses together" growing up.

[turnera]

Hmmm, that's a tough one. She has only one sister w/ brain dmg and her dad...who lives out of town. She has aunts and uncles, too, but the last few years she's kind of withdrawn from all of them.

 

She does have one cousin with whom we've been meeting for supper on Sat's since just after the big fights last summer (and her cousin's family -- DD7 has a cousin 6 yrs younger in that family, they're pretty close).

 

My W and her cousin grew up together.

 

I ALMOST old the cousin' H about the Coach studmuffin thing last Sat, but couldn't get him away from the family. They know who he is, I think (they both used to work at the same school). I do know that she cares about what this cousin thinks of her and values the closeness of that relationship. But I will bet she's spun her already with the "H just went crazy and thinks I've been cheating on him". I can't see why she wouldn't have shared this, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

I would hate to negatively affect the only real close friendship she has, but you're probably right. If I do this, she'd be the one to tell.

 

Do I have enough to go to her with, without appearing crazy or paranoid?

If she's that close to this cousin, there's nothing wrong with you going to her and saying "I need help! Here's what's going on and I don't know what to do!" Tell her, and ask her what she thinks is up with her cousin. Ask her why she thinks your wife has no interest in the marriage and little interest in the family. Maybe she knows something you don't know, and you can change to get your wife to turn around. And if she doesn't, even her making comments to your wife may be enough to change your dynamics. If she gets mad at you, just shrug and say "You're ruining our marriage and my life; what do you EXPECT me to do? I need help with this, and she's the closest person to you I know."

 

NEVER apologize. You're too weak in her eyes already.

[Windsurf66]

Honestly, I think she did that four years ago. Our sex life (I thought, any way) seemed to be mutually satisfactory. All of a sudden, after having taken two years off to care for DD7 after her birth and sometime after she'd gone back to work, I reached out for sex and got the "I don't want sex, I really don't even like it, in fact most of the time it hurts" speech. A couple of times in subsequent talks (not fights) she recanted the "most of the time it hurts" and just tries to get me focused on the fact that she wants it less frequently than I do. Well, duh, I've heard that's the situation with most men & women, but her comments right after that speech (after I'd left the room to think) were troubling. One was she said "I feel like I've just ended another M", and the last one she said before leaving me alone with my grief was "Well, just don't go tell any of your friends. I'd rather die!"

 

I was very bummed at that moment that she seemed more concerned about who knew about our problem than how I felt about it! I guess I should have read the writing on the wall back then. I was naive, what can I say? I didn't even suspect an affair until the 6th year, and we had a reconciliation so I dropped it, wasn't even suspecting it during the 7th summer until it was apparently over...

 

Me think its normal for the frequency to diminish, after child birth and stress from the work. As for her comments, for the first one (ended marriage), perhaps she felt that sex was impt to you and she felt that her desire to reduce the frequency would affect the marriage? Or did her previous marriage ended because of the same reason? As for the second comment, I guess she is just afraid of losing face and how others will view her.

[Windsurf66]

Oh, I have. She doesn't know about it because they're my friends and not hers. But the thing is, I don't know WHY she cares what my friends think.

 

I'm not sure she really does care -- between asking me 4 years ago not to tell my friends about our sexual problems (which I didn't know about before that night) and her manipulating me into cancelling my IC appt the first time, here's what I think: She's trying to isolate me.

 

Isn't working. I didn't go blab it to ALL of my friends, but I certainly brought two of my groomsmen (BFF's), pastor, IC and a couple of family members in on it. They have all provided advice, encouragement and prayer, which is probably why I'm NOT totally nuts, yet. Oftentimes, one or more of them will talk me down from an anxiety high back to more rational thinking. Just had lunch with one of them just now. He's a good listener. I'm afraid I gave him a firehose full, though (he'd been out of town since prior to the Coach studmuffin incident...the hearing or which actually spun his head! So I guess my reaction is not out of touch with reality, but that whole thing is just weird...).

 

What else should I do? I haven't considered bringing her familiy in on it, yet, since I don't have anything concrete. She'd just say, "I don't know, one day he just got this crazy idea that I've been cheating on him, I don't know what to do!" Maybe she's hoping I'll file for D so she doesn't have to (since she did all 3 times before and felt guilty about it).

 

What? She was married for THREE times before, and coincidentally, she initiated divorce for all three? First divorce is explicable due to bad choices/incompatibility. Second could still be tolerable, but raises red flags. Third divorce, highly probable that something is wrong with the person. Fourth divorce, forget it, the person is not suitable for marriage and better off with a F*** buddy.

 

Do you know the reasons (real reasons that were verified by her exH) for her divorce? Her marital record, is just bad. Personally, if i am getting married to a person who initiated 3 divorces, I would hire not one, but 3 PIs to investigate her past, and verify and compare the findings from all 3 PIs. And I would use all sorts of test to verifiy her sincerity b4 marriage. But I guess in the first place, I wouldn't be serious with such a person

[turnera]

Windsurf, that's been the issue all along. sruben (no offense) is a ... well, not a strong-type person. Not the kind to just say to hell with you I deserve better. I imagine that's the kind of guy she picks, because she WANTS to be able to run the marriage and do whatever she wants because she knows the guy won't do a thing about it. That's just his personality type. So for all us telling him to grow a pair...it's just not in his arsenal.

[sruben]

Windsurf, that's been the issue all along. sruben (no offense) is a ... well, not a strong-type person. Not the kind to just say to hell with you I deserve better. I imagine that's the kind of guy she picks, because she WANTS to be able to run the marriage and do whatever she wants because she knows the guy won't do a thing about it. That's just his personality type. So for all us telling him to grow a pair...it's just not in his arsenal.

 

Well, turnera, that's mighty generous of you. You don't know anything about my past, particularly before I was M'd since that hasn't come up.

 

A LOT of people are surprised at what I've put up with because I didn't use to put up with much. I was 38 and still single when I met my W for a reason: My average relationship time was five weeks. Sometimes they'd end it, sometimes I would, but if I saw something I didn't like and knew I couldn't live with, I just said so and didn't call them any more. Why waste time with someone you know you can't hang with.

 

At one point, there was this one gal about 7 years younger than me, a single mom with whose D I had become very close. Although we were never officially "dating", I spent many an evening (not the night) over at her place...more for the D than for her -- she had been M'd to a drug addict, M'd him to "fix" him, I eventually had to quit hanging out with her because she ended up getting into the drug scene herself. I spent WAY too much time with her because of her D (who once, at 4 years of age, told me that she wished that I were her daddy -- because I treated her a lot better than he did and I was around!).

 

It's possible I'm doing the same thing now because of my own DD7. I have accepted a lot of crap from my W for my D's sake that I wouldn't have otherwise. If I could be assured of having full custody of DD7, I'd file D in a heartbeat, knowing what I do now.

 

Your idea that I should "grow a pair" and kick my W to the curb is short-sighted and completely neglects the consideration of my D and my relationship with her. So forgive me if I don't just carelessly destroy my home life that way that you would. I wonder, do you have children?

 

Back to why I picked my W -- she presented herself as being a very godly and virtuous person who'd made a couple of bad decisions regarding M. Should I have been more wary of signs that, in hindsight, I now know are glaring red flags? If I'd known then what I know now, I am certain I would not have M'd her. But I did M her, and I have religious convictions that those vows mean something, at least to me. I'm not going to "cut bait and run" at the first sign of trouble. If I were, then I should have done so prior to making the commitment. Do you know the meaning of the word?

 

If I knew for certain that she did have an A (and 99% is not conclusive, there is still room for reasonable doubt), I would totally confront her and, from her reaction, determine if there were a future for our M and act accordingly.

 

I'm going to try to get her out on a drive tonight and discuss the boundary issues, which will almost certainly lead to discussing last summer. Might be the last time, we'll see...

[sruben]

What? She was married for THREE times before,

 

Yes, let me remind you, if you don't remember or haven't read my first thread, that she M'd xH#2 twice -- she told me that it was because after she D'd him for abandonment (he's a VV drug addict/alcoholic with PTSD), he came back and guilted her into reM'g him in a quickie LV ceremony (I've seen evidence that backs up the part about LV).

 

If it had been 3 xH's or children from more than one H, I doubt there would have been a second date...who needs that kind of drama?

 

and coincidentally, she initiated divorce for all three? First divorce is explicable due to bad choices/incompatibility.

 

She said MC told them they'd never really bonded as a M couple, but that they could still have a good M, but it would take time. She said xH#1 said he "didn't have time" and left MC and never returned. Shortly afterward, he started a new relationship, and this before their D was final. She found out that he had at some point committed adultery, but that was discovered after the D was in process.

 

On our first date, she told me she D'd him for adultery. More historical revisionism.

 

Second could still be tolerable, but raises red flags.

 

She said he presented himself as a very spiritual and godly man, was clean and sober at that time (I don't know if she knew about the addiction at that time, she might have told me, if so I've forgotten). He left on a drinking/drug binge two months into the M.

 

She said she M'd him because he was older (xH#1 was same age as her) and assumed he'd be more stable and mature. She was very wrong. I do sincerely believe she was duped by xH#2. Everyone who met him has told me that he was bad news...

 

Third divorce, highly probable that something is wrong with the person.

 

Well, since same H, yes on both counts. I should have seen that one coming.

 

Fourth divorce, forget it, the person is not suitable for marriage and better off with a F*** buddy.

 

Should I warn potential suitors if it comes to that? Not that I care, but I do care who might be step-daddy to DD7...

 

Do you know the reasons (real reasons that were verified by her exH) for her divorce?

 

No, but I've seen a letter written by xH#2 sometime after the 2nd D from him which shed a little more light.

 

Having a heart-to-heart with xH#1 is high on my priority list right now. DSD16 doesn't think he'll talk, but I'm hoping the goodwill I've generated from the start will weigh in my favor there. He was M'd to her 13 years, I've only 8 -- I'd like to know WTF is really wrong with her! I'm sure he has some insight into that, if I can ever manage to get alone with him. He's a very busy guy, when he's not working he's with his GF (who can blame him?). I might start with some monetary issues having to do with the DSD's.

 

Her marital record, is just bad. Personally, if i am getting married to a person who initiated 3 divorces, I would hire not one, but 3 PIs to investigate her past,

 

How, exactly, would a PI do that? When I spoke with PI's last summer, it seemed like there was very little they could actually legally do. It's not like on the soap operas where they can sneak cameras into hotel rooms and stuff. They could get ahold of M & D records, but that's public record -- I could go to the County Clerk's office and probably get the same thing.

 

But I would be very interested in knowing what you believe they could find out, in case I need that for any future relationship (should I find myself single again and be so inclined...not sure right now I would be).

 

and verify and compare the findings from all 3 PIs. And I would use all sorts of test to verifiy her sincerity b4 marriage.

 

That's a nice thought, but how would you do that without destroying your relationship? My W already felt "interrogated" by our first date, and I can see why -- I did hit her pretty rapid-fire with the questions. She even started crying at one point, but did answer all my questions (which is why I thought she was worth a shot -- didn't seem to be defensive or hiding anything at that time, although I later learned things which should have been included). I told her I asked her those things because, here I was, dating a woman who'd been D'd 3 times and I really wanted to know whether she was just going to D me after a getting bored with me a few years later or something. She said she understood.

 

But I guess in the first place, I wouldn't be serious with such a person

 

Hindsight is always 20-20. If you've managed to make better choices, I commend you. Are you M'd now?