Positive evidence of gaslighting

[Owl]

I'd like to suggest a radical change in your approach, Sruben.

 

Drop the subject of any possible past infidelity.

 

Take it off the table for now.

 

Focus on what you NEED/REQUIRE from your wife to have a successful marriage now, and going forward. What boundaries do you need enforced? What emotional needs does she need to fulfill. What do you see that she needs to change in order to make this marriage work?

 

Make a list.

 

Then sit down, and read back through that list looking at it as though you were your wife. Will she meet these requirements? Will she laugh them off? Pretend to agree to them with no intent to do so? Completely disregard them and discount them?

 

Or do you honestly believe that she'll work to hold her end of the marriage up?

 

That's your indicator. The answer to those questions should be the real thing guiding your next steps at this point. Rather than focus on a smoking gun that may or may not exist, focus on the reality of the woman in front of you.

 

Can she truly be the wife you need? Does she WANT to be the wife you need?

 

If yes...the you need to work with her to develop a gameplan together to get there.

 

If no...then you need to decide just how important this is to you, and what you're willing to do about it.

 

Develop a plan of action...don't remain in a state of inaction.

[Owl]

Just curious if you'd considered my advice here, SRuben.

[sruben]

Just curious if you'd considered my advice here, SRuben.

 

Yes. Actually, I am working on that list right now.

 

I am also reading Boundaries in Marriage -- I think a lot of that will come in handy for the discussion I plan to have with her tomorrow evening. I will probably be lighting the fuse for WWIII, but so be it.

 

You suggestion to table the EA from last summer is a good one. I was reviewing some notes I made from that time along with some email she'd sent at that time and am starting to see that it's possible the guy I think was involved might not have been the one. His DNA is all over the timetable, but there's something missing that someone closer might be a better match for, so until I can see more, you're right that I should table it for now.

 

There are too many other issues to deal with, boundaries in the marriage being one where I KNOW we have an issue. Another thing that I have to deal with in myself is my adversarial attitude toward her. Regardless of what is revealed or what happens, I am not going to be building any bridges with that.

 

I like that the AA meds are helping me to think more clearly, even though I haven't taken any today. They helped me to sleep better, which in itself helps.

 

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll follow up here with the results.

[sruben]

Okay, finally an update.

 

My W took a week off her regular job and had a high-priority task she had to do for another PT job she does on and off, so I was not able to talk with her last weekend. She finished that task on Tue, but things with the kids kept getting in the way.

 

Last weekend the sermon at church took an interesting turn: The pastor basically had everyone renew their vows at the end of the service. It was REALLY HARD to look my W in the eye and recite those vows (which were very similar to the ones we took 8 yrs ago) knowing that I've thought about D her a number of times in the last year, especially recently.

 

Last night we finally only had DD7 at home. We put her to bed and talked for 5 hours! The amazing thing is that she stayed with me those 5 hours. Usually, these kind of deep discussions get quickly emotional and she leaves the room after 5-15 minutes! We covered a LOT of ground, including what happened last summer. She was calm throughout most of it, I didn't get the sense of her hiding anything like I have in previous conversations. The only thing is that when I told her that I thought she was at least EA with someone last summer, she cried and denied, told me that she didn't and hasn't ever, but doesn't know how she can possibly convince me of that. When I told her about all the behavior which strongly indicates that something was going on, she cited all the work stress and peri-menopause as the reasons

 

I brought up the boundary issues and the lunches with the vendor OM that she seems to have covered with just a blanket statement in the one email and never mentioned again. She insists she remembers telling me on a number of occasions that she'd had lunch with the guy, says I just don't remember. She's right about that, I remember no such conversations. She says I have a bad memory.

 

I did tell her about IC and AA meds. That seemed to concern her quite a bit.

 

She says she doesn't feel safe in the relationship knowing that I'm reading books and seeing docs and taking meds without telling her for weeks at a time. I told her I wanted to avoid the drama that ensued last time, but that I always intended to tell her and that's why we were talking then. She asked me not to wait to talk to her when I have issues or questions in the future, which I happily agreed to. She said to take her to the back yard if necessary.

 

I also told her I was glad that she was the one that told me about DD7 saying "Mommy are you getting married again?" regarding Coach studmuffin. I told her that if she hadn't done that and DD7 had told me, I'd have been in Coach's office the next morning asking WTF?

 

There are a lot of issue that did not get covered, such as the known philanderer in her FB friends list (who she's always said she doesn't like, professionally or personally), or about the lingerie. But after 5 hours, we were both pretty exhausted. I think I'll ask about the FB friend this afternoon. Not sure when the best time to address the lingerie would be, but I know I need to do it soon.

 

I did put down the boundary about having any kind of emotional relationship with another man, with the consequence that D would be the likely outcome. She seemed to accept that.

 

Throughout her denials, I did ask her -- I said "Okay, but do you see how that looks to me? What makes me think that?" I'm not sure she ever quite "got there".

 

Now, she was guilty of also not telling me things when she thought of them, too: When the topic of this out of town job opportunity came up, I told her what I thought about that as her friend, brother in Christ, and H: As her friend, I thought it was right up her alley and a natural progression from her last job; as her BIC, that it sounded like a great opportunity, but to make sure the Lord's will was in it and to count the cost, and as her H -- she actually beat me to this -- that I was concerned about our M surviving it. She said it before I got it out of my mouth! And then she added that she was hurt that, because I'd demonstrated a jealousy for our relationship before, that I didn't object to her being gone that much -- that she actually believed that maybe I WANTED her gone that much! I assured her that that wasn't the case! I pointed out that she was as guilty as I was of making assumptions and not communicating. She said she's been praying AGAINST getting the job offer, and I said I had been as well. It sounds like we're agreed that she should not take it. But it's been past the time the headhunter said she should be getting a phone interview, so we're thinking they passed on it anyway.

 

Again, I was amazed at how calm she was throughout most of it, only getting upset that I had ever thought she was having an A. She also seems to be using the talk as a reason not to trust me. But the one thing absent that has been in every other discussion like this was the rage and disrespectful comments she would usually make.

 

Opinions?

[turnera]

My opinion is she is still manipulating you. It's what she does. It's why she's good at her job. She may love you, but she'll never be 100% honest with you.

[2sunny]

Okay, finally an update.

 

My W took a week off her regular job and had a high-priority task she had to do for another PT job she does on and off, so I was not able to talk with her last weekend. She finished that task on Tue, but things with the kids kept getting in the way.

 

Last weekend the sermon at church took an interesting turn: The pastor basically had everyone renew their vows at the end of the service. It was REALLY HARD to look my W in the eye and recite those vows (which were very similar to the ones we took 8 yrs ago) knowing that I've thought about D her a number of times in the last year, especially recently.

 

Last night we finally only had DD7 at home. We put her to bed and talked for 5 hours! The amazing thing is that she stayed with me those 5 hours. Usually, these kind of deep discussions get quickly emotional and she leaves the room after 5-15 minutes! We covered a LOT of ground, including what happened last summer. She was calm throughout most of it, I didn't get the sense of her hiding anything like I have in previous conversations. The only thing is that when I told her that I thought she was at least EA with someone last summer, she cried and denied, told me that she didn't and hasn't ever, but doesn't know how she can possibly convince me of that. When I told her about all the behavior which strongly indicates that something was going on, she cited all the work stress and peri-menopause as the reasons

 

I brought up the boundary issues and the lunches with the vendor OM that she seems to have covered with just a blanket statement in the one email and never mentioned again. She insists she remembers telling me on a number of occasions that she'd had lunch with the guy, says I just don't remember. She's right about that, I remember no such conversations. She says I have a bad memory.

 

I did tell her about IC and AA meds. That seemed to concern her quite a bit.

 

She says she doesn't feel safe in the relationship knowing that I'm reading books and seeing docs and taking meds without telling her for weeks at a time. I told her I wanted to avoid the drama that ensued last time, but that I always intended to tell her and that's why we were talking then. She asked me not to wait to talk to her when I have issues or questions in the future, which I happily agreed to. She said to take her to the back yard if necessary.

 

I also told her I was glad that she was the one that told me about DD7 saying "Mommy are you getting married again?" regarding Coach studmuffin. I told her that if she hadn't done that and DD7 had told me, I'd have been in Coach's office the next morning asking WTF?

 

There are a lot of issue that did not get covered, such as the known philanderer in her FB friends list (who she's always said she doesn't like, professionally or personally), or about the lingerie. But after 5 hours, we were both pretty exhausted. I think I'll ask about the FB friend this afternoon. Not sure when the best time to address the lingerie would be, but I know I need to do it soon.

 

I did put down the boundary about having any kind of emotional relationship with another man, with the consequence that D would be the likely outcome. She seemed to accept that.

 

Throughout her denials, I did ask her -- I said "Okay, but do you see how that looks to me? What makes me think that?" I'm not sure she ever quite "got there".

 

Now, she was guilty of also not telling me things when she thought of them, too: When the topic of this out of town job opportunity came up, I told her what I thought about that as her friend, brother in Christ, and H: As her friend, I thought it was right up her alley and a natural progression from her last job; as her BIC, that it sounded like a great opportunity, but to make sure the Lord's will was in it and to count the cost, and as her H -- she actually beat me to this -- that I was concerned about our M surviving it. She said it before I got it out of my mouth! And then she added that she was hurt that, because I'd demonstrated a jealousy for our relationship before, that I didn't object to her being gone that much -- that she actually believed that maybe I WANTED her gone that much! I assured her that that wasn't the case! I pointed out that she was as guilty as I was of making assumptions and not communicating. She said she's been praying AGAINST getting the job offer, and I said I had been as well. It sounds like we're agreed that she should not take it. But it's been past the time the headhunter said she should be getting a phone interview, so we're thinking they passed on it anyway.

 

Again, I was amazed at how calm she was throughout most of it, only getting upset that I had ever thought she was having an A. She also seems to be using the talk as a reason not to trust me. But the one thing absent that has been in every other discussion like this was the rage and disrespectful comments she would usually make.

 

Opinions?

 

i honestly don't see where the progress is since you even started this thread - as not much has changed.

 

if nothing changes = nothing changes. you don't seem to even have a solid solution much less a firm plan at this late hour.

 

blowing with the wind gets mighty old after you get beat up. maybe she hasn't beat you up bad enough yet - or she's just still covering up the beating you're about to get...

 

what's the plan? sit and wait several more months? why not give her a lie detector and find out? this he says/she says seems really old. where does the truth lie? i'd want solid evidence... she's never going to give you that.

[turnera]

Voila! Tell her that to remain married, she will have to take a lie detector test. If she passes, you stay married (for now); if not, you move on.

[sruben]

My opinion is she is still manipulating you. It's what she does. It's why she's good at her job. She may love you, but she'll never be 100% honest with you.

 

Okay, I hear you, but what about what I've written makes you think she's still manipulating me? I'm not disagreeing with you, just looking for insight into what you're seeing.

 

One thing I see is that, although she's still telling me what DIDN'T happen last year, or that's she's not interested, never been interested, in anyone else since marrying me, she hasn't told me why she quite calling me when walking to her car after working late, nor what exactly was the nature of the relationship with the vendor OM -- I will be addressing that in our next talk (maybe tonight?). We also didn't clarify our boundaries w.r.t. having lunch with people of the opposite sex (either she's been too loose about that, or I've been restricting myself too much -- it's not equal, in any case).

[turnera]

Here's my take on manipulation:

 

Last night we finally only had DD7 at home. We put her to bed and talked for 5 hours! The amazing thing is that she stayed with me those 5 hours. Usually, these kind of deep discussions get quickly emotional and she leaves the room after 5-15 minutes!

She always leaves because she protects herself, rather than being your partner - her against you. Selfish acts.

 

We covered a LOT of ground, including what happened last summer. She was calm throughout most of it, I didn't get the sense of her hiding anything like I have in previous conversations.

She usually hides info from you.

 

The only thing is that when I told her that I thought she was at least EA with someone last summer, she cried and denied, told me that she didn't and hasn't ever, but doesn't know how she can possibly convince me of that. When I told her about all the behavior which strongly indicates that something was going on, she cited all the work stress and peri-menopause as the reasons

She takes no blame, instead has 'reasons' for any out of the ordinary thing she does. Again, self-protection.

 

I brought up the boundary issues and the lunches with the vendor OM that she seems to have covered with just a blanket statement in the one email and never mentioned again.

Selfish person makes a blanket statement and drops subject, so that YOU will drop subject. NEVER about you or how YOU feel. Self-protection.

 

She insists she remembers telling me on a number of occasions that she'd had lunch with the guy, says I just don't remember. She's right about that, I remember no such conversations. She says I have a bad memory.

Selfish people gaslight YOU so that you doubt yourself and (hopefully) drop the subject. Read up on adultery and you will see that tactic used over and over - make you think you have it all wrong, they DID do what you wanted. To get you to drop it.

 

 

She says she doesn't feel safe in the relationship knowing that I'm reading books and seeing docs and taking meds without telling her for weeks at a time.

Of course not. That gives you POWER over her and her manipulation. She will no longer be able to gaslight you, keep you the gullible, dumb mate she's depended on for so long to be 'nice' and let her keep doing her selfish stuff while you sit at home and wait.

 

Throughout her denials, I did ask her -- I said "Okay, but do you see how that looks to me? What makes me think that?" I'm not sure she ever quite "got there".

Because she assumes you are still the same gullible, 'nice' guy who will let her be selfish. She doesn't need to 'get there' because she intends to continue doing what she wants; she'll just revamp the way she deals with you.

 

If you read up about abusers (not saying she is, just a reference to patterns), you will see that they 'control' their victim by knowing what makes that person tick. If an abuser's wife has body issues, he will put in subtle hints about her being ugly, to the point that he has her believing she's so ugly no other guy would ever even look at her, let alone choose her. If she makes it to therapy where she learns that she isn't ugly and believes it, her abuser will change tactics - he will either ramp up the effort to shut her back down, or he will look for another weakness to use instead. That's how I see your wife; she gets to do what she wants because she knows you; knows what to say, how to say it, to get you to back down. Now, since you're learning, you're starting to buck the trend. Expect her to seek out other ways to manipulate you into letting her do what she wants. Could be guilting you, could be something else. But look for it.

 

And then she added that she was hurt that, because I'd demonstrated a jealousy for our relationship before, that I didn't object to her being gone that much -- that she actually believed that maybe I WANTED her gone that much!

Now, you may see this as proof of her loving you and wanting you. Me, the cynic, sees this as more guilt manipulation. Her: "I can't believe you wouldn't fight for me! Do you know how much that hurts me that you won't keep me here? If I go out and have drinks with Joe, it's because you've hurt me so much! Don't you see that? I'm doing the best I can to stay in love with you, but you just hurt me so much by doubting me!" You: "No, don't think that! I love you! Don't worry about it!"

 

I assured her that that wasn't the case!

And it worked!

 

I pointed out that she was as guilty as I was of making assumptions and not communicating. She said she's been praying AGAINST getting the job offer, and I said I had been as well. It sounds like we're agreed that she should not take it.

Easy for her to say that so you back off; whether she's telling the truth...only she knows. And if it does turn up they want her, the proof will be in the pudding.

 

Again, I was amazed at how calm she was throughout most of it, only getting upset that I had ever thought she was having an A.

Turning the guilt onto YOUR shoulders so you will back off. Classic affairspeak.

 

She also seems to be using the talk as a reason not to trust me.

Classic affairspeak blameshifting so you apologize and vow to never monitor her again. I mean, really, how could you!

 

But the one thing absent that has been in every other discussion like this was the rage and disrespectful comments she would usually make.

Like I said, now that you are showing a backbone, she is finding a NEW way to control you.

 

JMHO

[sruben]

Here's my take on manipulation:

 

She always leaves because she protects herself, rather than being your partner - her against you. Selfish acts.

 

I can see that, but one thing I'd like to point out -- she didn't do that this time, and she did not rage, which she usualy does.

 

She usually hides info from you.

 

I think I would change "usually" to "occasionally", but the point remains, yes. Still manipulative behavior. He who knows the truth in a relationship has most of the power/control, and she's an admitted control freak (at least where the kids are concerned, but I'd be naive to assume it didn't include me).

 

She takes no blame, instead has 'reasons' for any out of the ordinary thing she does. Again, self-protection.

 

Yyyyyeahhhhh. Don't know what to do about that, other than point it out.

 

Selfish person makes a blanket statement and drops subject, so that YOU will drop subject. NEVER about you or how YOU feel. Self-protection.

 

I saw that, too. One of my biggest concerns.

 

Four years ago, when she dropped the "don't want sex, don't even like it" bomb on me after what I thought were four years of happy M/SF, after we discussed it to her satisfaction, I left the bedroom and sat in the dark in the living room contemplating a future without SF with her. She followed me in shortly thereafter, but only to say that she felt like she'd ended another M and to beg me not to tell any of my friends, she'd "rather die", then she turned around and went back to bed, while I sat there figuratively bleeding... :-(

 

Also, when I confronted her last fall about vendor OM's birthday being in her work calendar, at first she denied any significance to the date, then when I showed her the screenshot, said she didn't know how that got in there, then said something like, "Oh, I can't be compassionate and remember peoples' birthdays, now??!?" and then switched to wanting to find out HOW I'd gotten that, rather than how I felt about her having another man's birthday on her calendar. She still says it was because that's her habit, to record peoples' birthdays when she finds out about them to wish them a happy birthday.

 

I felt then that she wasn't being completely honest with me. In fact, the first question I had asked was what significance that date had and why was it significant to HER? When she denied, I was ready to drop it because I didn't believe she was going to be honest with me anyway, but SHE pursued it, wanted to know WHY I was asking. Always wants to know HOW I know something or WHY I'm asking, never about WHY I care or HOW it makes me feel... :-(

 

Selfish people gaslight YOU so that you doubt yourself and (hopefully) drop the subject. Read up on adultery and you will see that tactic used over and over - make you think you have it all wrong, they DID do what you wanted. To get you to drop it.

 

Oh, I have read so many web sites and books on infidelity and adultery over the past year, including several the past couple of months. I know far more about the topic now than I ever wanted to. I can see it when other people's spouses are having affairs, long before they even get a clue.

 

By the way, the discussion I had with her the other night, five hours as it was, was not the last but only the first of several talks I plan to have with her. We only scratched the surface. I do intend to revisit the untold lunches with vendor OM, more on boundaries (can I have lunch with OW whenever I want, too? I've always avoided it). Not sure of the timing, but I even intend to address the issue of all the lingerie and g-strings she has which I never see her in (there's only a few I have seen her in, mostly ones I've bought her, but a couple others as well). That will be an interesting "discussion", probably won't be calm. I intend to ask her to get rid of anything she never plans on wearing for me -- why would she need them? To attract someone else "just in case" things don't work between us? Does she feel like she needs to keep her options open?

 

Of course not. That gives you POWER over her and her manipulation. She will no longer be able to gaslight you, keep you the gullible, dumb mate she's depended on for so long to be 'nice' and let her keep doing her selfish stuff while you sit at home and wait.

 

Well, then I must be doing something right...

 

Because she assumes you are still the same gullible, 'nice' guy who will let her be selfish. She doesn't need to 'get there' because she intends to continue doing what she wants; she'll just revamp the way she deals with you.

 

More questions on this below.

 

If you read up about abusers (not saying she is, just a reference to patterns), you will see that they 'control' their victim by knowing what makes that person tick. If an abuser's wife has body issues, he will put in subtle hints about her being ugly, to the point that he has her believing she's so ugly no other guy would ever even look at her, let alone choose her. If she makes it to therapy where she learns that she isn't ugly and believes it, her abuser will change tactics - he will either ramp up the effort to shut her back down, or he will look for another weakness to use instead. That's how I see your wife; she gets to do what she wants because she knows you; knows what to say, how to say it, to get you to back down. Now, since you're learning, you're starting to buck the trend. Expect her to seek out other ways to manipulate you into letting her do what she wants. Could be guilting you, could be something else. But look for it.

 

Got my eyes open! I doubt she'd use guilt, even though that's been a staple in her family for generations. I refuse to own guilt that's not mine. The kids try that one occasionally...

 

(Re: hurt from no displayed jealousy) Now, you may see this as proof of her loving you and wanting you. Me, the cynic, sees this as more guilt manipulation. Her: "I can't believe you wouldn't fight for me! Do you know how much that hurts me that you won't keep me here? If I go out and have drinks with Joe, it's because you've hurt me so much! Don't you see that? I'm doing the best I can to stay in love with you, but you just hurt me so much by doubting me!" You: "No, don't think that! I love you! Don't worry about it!"

 

Well, I wouldn't stand for that BS, but I see your point.

 

And it worked!

 

Well, I was just being honest -- I really DON'T want her to travel and be away for work! If we're going to be M'd, we need to be together, at least a good percentage of the time.

 

In my defense, I am trying NOT to be one of those controlling, jealous husbands that you read about here and elsewhere -- I DO have a "godly jealousy" (that is, the kind of jealousy that the Bible describes as being proper, in that I will not share her with another, as God will not share us with idols), but since she accused me last summer of being a "control freak" just because I wanted to know where she spent $24K over 4 years (yes, more gaslighting, but this one she's taken back several times, admitting that SHE is the control freak). But still, I don't want to give her occasion to make that accusation justly.

 

Am I wrong? Does she maybe think I'm wrong? I'm thinking of asking her if she WANTS me to be more controlling (she seems to want me to make certain decisions like last fall, wanted my PERMISSION to quit her job, not that I ever insisted on such a thing -- and now wants my DISAPPROVAL or veto regarding the out of town job, rather than making her own decision). I'm-a confused about this part, since she raged against control last summer!

 

(Re: her praying against out of town job) Easy for her to say that so you back off; whether she's telling the truth...only she knows. And if it does turn up they want her, the proof will be in the pudding.

 

Oh, no doubt! If she got offered the job and accepted it, that would be a game-changer at this point, for sure, since we've already agreed together that it would not be good for the M or family...

 

Turning the guilt onto YOUR shoulders so you will back off. Classic affairspeak.

 

Yeah, but WW's are notorious for taking their little secret to the grave.

 

I don't think she'll even discuss a polygraph. Where we grew up, that just wasn't something you did, although I'd welcome it if I thought she might. They're very effective. I had to take one for work recently. Pretty cool process...

 

(Re: her not trusting me now) Classic affairspeak blameshifting so you apologize and vow to never monitor her again. I mean, really, how could you!

 

That won't stop me, although after a month or more of using a GPS on her car, I removed it this weekend (in case she starts "cleaning" her car in her time off from work this week). Haven't keylogged her laptop, either, but I've been looking for a better one. The one I paid for last year is about to expire, so didn't want it on any machines when it does.

 

Like I said, now that you are showing a backbone, she is finding a NEW way to control you.

 

JMHO

 

Now here's my question: Besides using guilt (which you already mentioned), what are some new ways I should be looking out for? In this area of psychology I'm pretty ignorant.

 

Thanks for your thoughts...

[turnera]

Well, the one I see her use the most is the 'you don't trust me, I feel so abused' trick - wherein you either AGREE with her and THEN she can say 'You're a jerk!' or else you backtrack and apologize for not trusting her. Either way, she wins and you back off. Not so much guilt as you not wanting to look like a bad husband.

 

Other things might be to purposely give you false information and then, when you think you know what she's doing, she was doing something else all along and all she has to say is 'you weren't listening, dear, I TOLD you I was doing ABC.' Makes you doubt yourself and also makes you feel stupid (as in, not listening to her) - all in all, makes YOU out to be the bad person, since you obviously didn't care enough about her to really listen to her. Therefore, it's back in your ballcourt to make it up to her by giving her more freedom or whatever.

 

Or to get other people to cover for her. "If sruben calls, tell him I've been at your house for 4 hours, not 2."

 

Or to find a weakness of yours, such as fear of rejection. "If you doubt me so much, I can't live like that; I HAVE to leave, if you're going to keep questioning everything I do" while expecting you to say "NO! Don't leave! I take it back!" Again, she gets what she wants, which is to CONTROL your marriage. So that she does whatever she wants and only has to do a little damage control here and there; i.e., keep you tame.

 

IDK, sruben, you SAY you're doing this and that, and I have to believe you. But there is a core...underpinning to everything you say that just drips obsequiousness. And I don't say that as an insult, but an observation. You seem SO invested in keeping her, no matter what, and you just seem to be seeking out some way to temper her level of outrageous selfishness just enough that you can live with yourself. As in 'just throw me a bone, here, honey, to make me feel like you actually care so that I can pretend you DO care so I don't have to take a stand.'

 

Of course we don't know your real story, and only what you post, not your wife. But it drives me crazy to see the tiny little morsels she throws while you want to be her everything, and you accept it. Your perogative, of course. I just don't think I could do it. You are NOT getting your needs met. You are NOT getting her to stop Love Busting you. She seems to be doing just enough to keep you from getting honestly mad at her; and that seems to be ALL she's willing to do - just enough.

 

Why do you want to spend the rest of your life getting just enough?

[sruben]

Well, the one I see her use the most is the 'you don't trust me, I feel so abused' trick - wherein you either AGREE with her and THEN she can say 'You're a jerk!' or else you backtrack and apologize for not trusting her. Either way, she wins and you back off. Not so much guilt as you not wanting to look like a bad husband.

 

Well, you're right that I don't want to look like (or be) a bad husband, and you're right that she's using that one pretty heavily about now.

 

How do you think I should handle that?

 

Other things might be to purposely give you false information and then, when you think you know what she's doing, she was doing something else all along and all she has to say is 'you weren't listening, dear, I TOLD you I was doing ABC.' Makes you doubt yourself and also makes you feel stupid (as in, not listening to her) - all in all, makes YOU out to be the bad person, since you obviously didn't care enough about her to really listen to her. Therefore, it's back in your ballcourt to make it up to her by giving her more freedom or whatever.

 

Well, she hasn't asked for more freedom (she's not terribly restricted, not by me anyway -- more logistics with the kids).

 

But what you say above -- that's why I've started documenting things, so that _I_ know for certain what was said before and how it differs from what is being said now. Even though she knows that I do this, she still insists that my _perspective_ is skewed or that I misunderstood then or I misinterpreted it or, or... You get the picture. Yes, so do I. Frustrating! She's either nuts or wants me to think I am. She'll eventually hit a wall with the latter.

 

Or to get other people to cover for her. "If sruben calls, tell him I've been at your house for 4 hours, not 2."

 

Yeah, one time she did have a 3.5 hr haircut/highlight, and was nervous explaining it away (they're usually about 2 hrs). The next appt she had is when I hired a PI to see where she actually went. Bad news, that time she only went where she was supposed to. But I wouldn't be surprised if I learned the 3.5 hr one included some kind of rendezvous (her mileage was right for the destination, so she didn't drive somewhere else).

 

Or to find a weakness of yours, such as fear of rejection. "If you doubt me so much, I can't live like that; I HAVE to leave, if you're going to keep questioning everything I do" while expecting you to say "NO! Don't leave! I take it back!" Again, she gets what she wants, which is to CONTROL your marriage. So that she does whatever she wants and only has to do a little damage control here and there; i.e., keep you tame.

 

Last year, that's pretty much where I was at. If she tries that now, she's got a surprise coming (IC says it's better for me if it's her idea to leave).

 

I know her xH#1, after 8 yrs of M, cried and begged her on his knees on the kitchen floor not to leave him. A year later, reconciliation baby was born. After 13 yrs total, she D him anyway.

 

Not going there. That much I can say with certainty. I have no problem telling DD7 that Mommy didn't want to live with us any more, if she leaves.

 

IDK, sruben, you SAY you're doing this and that, and I have to believe you. But there is a core...underpinning to everything you say that just drips obsequiousness. And I don't say that as an insult, but an observation. You seem SO invested in keeping her, no matter what, and you just seem to be seeking out some way to temper her level of outrageous selfishness just enough that you can live with yourself. As in 'just throw me a bone, here, honey, to make me feel like you actually care so that I can pretend you DO care so I don't have to take a stand.'

 

If I were only considering myself and my wants/needs, I'd have been out of there 4 years ago! As a Christian, I kept myself chaste while I was single with the future hope of enjoying a satisfying sex life with a godly wife, and her "don't want sex, don't even like it" speech 4 yrs into the M was a pretty stern blow to that vision!

 

The overarching concern is for DD7 -- I want her in my life every day while she's growing up. I realize there's a conflict there, but right now I have that. Getting a D will almost certainly take that away (unless W decides she doesn't want to be a full-time mommy any more -- which is what I thought she might be wanting by going for that travelling job). Also, as a Christian, my Bible teaches that we're not to be pursuing only our own best interests, but we should also be looking to the interests of others (my W, DD7, DSD's, etc).

 

As for obsequious, "overly determined to please, ingratiating" -- that's definitely overstating the case. I am not willing to be a doormat. You say this just because I'm not in a hurry to D my W?

 

I agree she is immature and selfish (she would even agree with the latter), but those are not grounds for D in a Biblical sense (and probably not in any civil sense, not that that matters in a no-fault state).

 

Of course we don't know your real story, and only what you post, not your wife. But it drives me crazy to see the tiny little morsels she throws while you want to be her everything, and you accept it. Your perogative, of course. I just don't think I could do it. You are NOT getting your needs met. You are NOT getting her to stop Love Busting you. She seems to be doing just enough to keep you from getting honestly mad at her; and that seems to be ALL she's willing to do - just enough.

 

Why do you want to spend the rest of your life getting just enough?

 

Good question. If it were just my life it would affect, I would have moved on four years ago. Can I keep this up another four years (or even one)? I don't know. I am not willing to silently do so any longer, and last Friday was the beginning of that. If she leaves me because of it, fine, but unless either she admits having A's or I bust her in one, I don't feel as though I have Biblical grounds to initiate D myself. I also have IC and a BFF strongly encouraging me not to D, even if there is A. IC put up with a WW for 8 yrs himself, she finally left. What he did was establish a household where "this is a Christian household, and we don't do... we do..." and he said the kids got it even before she did, but eventually he said something to her like "W, as a Christian family, we don't lie and cheat. It seems like you don't want to be part of this family..." and she finally left of her own accord. They didn't even use lawyers, he said (I don't know how that's possible), and they came up with an equitable splitting of marital assets that they both could live with and it was over. But he says I should not be the one to initiate. I know my W doesn't ever want to do that again, but she did 3 times already!

[sruben]

turnera,

 

A quick question if you wouldn't mind answering -- I've seen you talk positively about marriagebuilders. What was your screen name over there?

[turnera]

I do so understand about the kids. I wanted to leave 10 years ago, before we were $100,000 in debt, but I didn't for our daughter. Now I can't afford to, now that she's out to college. So you get no response from me on that. It's just that you seem to be married to an EXTREMELY strong-willed and selfish woman, and I fear that what happened to me will happen to you - you wait so long, for the kids, but in the meantime you literally lose yourself. I was suicidal a couple of times because I felt I had to stay but, like you, was too weak to stand up for my rights. And now I've waited so long that I've lost my love for my husband, if I ever even really had it.

 

Had I gotten more help and learned to stand up to him 10 years ago, he would have bent over backwards to please me, because he does want me. But I'm ambivalent and I'm now just treading water. And I never did do the work I need to on myself. In fact, just today I've been trying to get the impetus to make a call.

 

I don't think you are a weak man. I think you have a weakness, like Kriptonyte, and that is your family. So you put up with things you should never have put up with. And I think she knows it, too. And uses it. Not to say that she does so in a mean or bad way. Like I said, it's just who she is. Some people are users, some are givers. And the uses rarely are able to understand the perspective of the giver, who actually enjoy giving. Users think that's weakness. They would never do that.

 

Did I ever tell you about my best friend's mom? She was on husband #7 when I met them. Most selfish woman I ever met; probably what got me so against users, watching my friend suffer so much. It was obvious the kids were just casualties of war, obvious to my friend, too. She had such bad buck teeth I felt bad for her. Hideous, really. But guess who had braces? Yep; her mom. That's why I get so defensive of people like you who do nothing worse than be loving and give chances.

 

What to do about her accusing you? Write down on a piece of paper what you want in a marriage. Also write down what you deserve. Keep it in your wallet. Any time she harangues you, pull it out and remind yourself of what you deserve. Read it out loud to her; she'll love that.

 

I was catperson. I got banned earlier this year because I got in a fight with one of the mods/posters there who is a Class A biotch, and the mods (of whom she was one!) said I could come back if I apologized and promised to 'be good' (their words); I told them to shove it.

[sruben]

I do so understand about the kids. I wanted to leave 10 years ago, before we were $100,000 in debt, but I didn't for our daughter. Now I can't afford to, now that she's out to college. So you get no response from me on that. It's just that you seem to be married to an EXTREMELY strong-willed and selfish woman, and I fear that what happened to me will happen to you - you wait so long, for the kids, but in the meantime you literally lose yourself. I was suicidal a couple of times because I felt I had to stay but, like you, was too weak to stand up for my rights. And now I've waited so long that I've lost my love for my husband, if I ever even really had it.

 

Well, I won't get to the suicidal stage. Been there, done that (in my early 20's I'd gotten to the point in my life for whatever reason that I thought it was no longer a question of IF but WHEN I was going to commit suicide. This was before I gave my life to Jesus -- who alone has the prerogative to decide when I leave this world). Besides, why would I kill myself over my W leaving me (emotionally or literally)? I'd hurt, but I'd move on.

 

Not making light of your struggle at the time because, as I said, I was at that point once in my life, too.

 

Had I gotten more help and learned to stand up to him 10 years ago, he would have bent over backwards to please me, because he does want me. But I'm ambivalent and I'm now just treading water. And I never did do the work I need to on myself. In fact, just today I've been trying to get the impetus to make a call.

 

It's not too late! It's never too late while you're still breathing. If you need to make a call, then make it today. Why wait?

 

I am working on myself now, by the way. That takes many forms, some of it is baring my soul here, other forms are like having lunch with a good friend of mine today who has been struggling in the spirit with me in this. He told me some things today that were hard to hear about what I need to be doing and what I need to quit doing that are making things worse.

 

Another thing I should point out is that my presentation of my W here has probably been weighted more toward the negative because of the nature of the interaction. There are good things in my M, sometimes my W can be loving and giving, sometimes she can be a good mother. I don't feel like she's ever really opened herself up to me emotionally and bared her soul. I feel like she's always been in self-preservation mode because of her previous D's. I also realize that may never change, something my friend today agreed with, but he encouraged me to be the loving one and to reflect Christ in my behavior toward my W. Easy to say, he said, hard to do. I'm working on it...

 

I don't think you are a weak man. I think you have a weakness, like Kriptonyte, and that is your family. So you put up with things you should never have put up with. And I think she knows it, too. And uses it. Not to say that she does so in a mean or bad way. Like I said, it's just who she is. Some people are users, some are givers. And the uses rarely are able to understand the perspective of the giver, who actually enjoy giving. Users think that's weakness. They would never do that.

 

She did recently tell me that she was "being giving" when she did something for me that I asked her to do, but that she didn't want to do that any more. Kind of a weird way to put it. I didn't have the quickness of wit to ask at the time, "you mean you felt like being giving while we were on vacation, but not when we get home?" She would likely not have agreed, but that's what she's doing.

 

I am pushing back and being more outspoken, trying NOT to go overboard. Like I said, I wasn't always conflict-avoidant. You can ask any man who was my roommate from my 20's-30's! Then again, we're not as invested in our roommates, don't really care if they're mad at us or really if they move out -- we didn't M them, anyway!

 

So, I'm trying to reclaim that part of myself without being cruel (sometimes I was to them, but men can take that from each other...or duke it out if necessary) and without being selfish (or at least without being overly so -- we all have some selfishness to deal with).

 

Did I ever tell you about my best friend's mom? She was on husband #7 when I met them. Most selfish woman I ever met; probably what got me so against users, watching my friend suffer so much. It was obvious the kids were just casualties of war, obvious to my friend, too. She had such bad buck teeth I felt bad for her. Hideous, really. But guess who had braces? Yep; her mom. That's why I get so defensive of people like you who do nothing worse than be loving and give chances.

 

Yes, you did tell me about her. Very sad story. Inconceivable that a mother would be that way with her kids.

 

What to do about her accusing you? Write down on a piece of paper what you want in a marriage. Also write down what you deserve. Keep it in your wallet. Any time she harangues you, pull it out and remind yourself of what you deserve. Read it out loud to her; she'll love that.

 

Funny, my friend at lunch today told me that I need to figuratively "burn" my lists...until I showed him that I actually did have a list, then he read it and said I needed to literally burn it, that presenting it to her would not result in anything good. I have to agree. He says I'm more interested in being right than in being loving. He's also right about that.

 

I was catperson. I got banned earlier this year because I got in a fight with one of the mods/posters there who is a Class A biotch, and the mods (of whom she was one!) said I could come back if I apologized and promised to 'be good' (their words); I told them to shove it.

 

Which mod was it? I've seen several that fit that category.

 

BTW, Marshmallow (Marsh? Whatever her handle ended up being) said she never thought my W ever had an A, that I was just an obvious control freak. People seemed to worship her over there because once she decided that, everyone else joined that bandwagon and changed their mind about all the red flags and other behavior.

 

Most of my thread was lost in whatever hard disk crash they suffered last year...

[sruben]

Kind of interesting. Our pastor continues his series on M and W is all of a sudden in the mod to talk. Besides the 5 hr discussion we had a week ago Fri (where a lot was covered, but really the only thing resolved is that she would not be taking the travelling job if offered, not that they have, and some local places are starting to show interest -- one just today!), the discussion about Love Languages has also started some interesting conversations. She now wants to go through that book with me, which is great!

 

She also acknowledged in another talk we had on Sat after church that she "doesn't make it easy for me" with respect to knowing the line between appropriate leadership in the family vs. "being controlling", which I've always tried NOT to be (but which she has accused me of, particularly when I confronted her last year about unaccountable cash spending she was doing around the time I suspected her of having an EA).

 

Also, we recently celebrated our 8th anniversary. I took her out to one of her favorite places, she really enjoyed it. We enjoyed SF together that night. The next morning, she told me she wanted to take back something she said after our minivacation earlier this year. It was kind of a hurtful comment about our SF life and what she was willing and no longer willing to do or be a part of.

 

It wasn't a topic I brought up. The fact that she brought this up on her own and took back the comment (which is reversing her position on the topic) is HUGE! I haven't seen her do something like that in the 8 years we've been M'd! It shows me that she's actually changed where she's at w.r.t. intimacy with me, which is the first thing she's done to give me hope that this M is workable over the long term. Our M has been defined for so long by what she's not willing to do and what she wants with no real regard to what I want, that this really surprised me!

 

I realize that this could just be "throwing me another scrap", but it's really not a scrap -- more like a steak that I thought I'd never get to enjoy.

 

I actually now have some hope for the future (and doing like Owl suggested -- focusing on what we need NOW instead of dealing with last summer, to make this M work). This seems to be a step in the right direction.

 

When we pulled up to the restaurant the other night, she seemed to be blown away by my choice, said how unselfish it was (because it's one of her favs and not really one I like so much -- you'd think I never took her there before, but I have...it's just been awhile, and never on a special day like our anniversary). Maybe she's trying to be unselfish in response? I like it!

[turnera]

I'm so glad. You respecting yourself has gotten her to respect you, and maybe even admire you. Keep it up!

[sruben]

Did she tell you what made her change her mind about this? Sounds like her wheels may be turning a little bit. Could be she figures it's easy enough to read a book and that will put you at ease and off-guard...will get you off her case.

 

Except that 1) she hates reading books, and 2) it was her idea (or at least not mine -- the pastor's suggestion to the congregation could have been influential).

 

Has she actually told you what she was spending the cash on? Has she "accounted for" either the cash or her behavior during that time?

 

No, at the time she gave a really weak excuse for the kinds of things she supposedly spent the money on (no receipts) and as for her behavior -- she blames a combination of perimenopause and job stress at the time.

 

Yeah, I know. I don't really buy it, either. I was there...

 

Maybe she has figured out that simply "yessing" you to death will be enough to satisfy your curiosity, without actually answering the real questions.

 

I'm not sure how you think she was "yessing" me to death. And it doesn't satisfy my concerns or my curiosity.

 

One of "her" favorite places? Not one of "our" favorite places? Well congratulations on the 8th anniversary, anyway. By the way granted she enjoyed it. Did you? Why is her enjoyment more important to you than your own? You see it seems like you are overly focused on trying to please her and appease her rather than doing what is right for the relationship, and for yourself.

 

You're overreaching here. I never said I didn't like it, and I usually DO take her to one of "our" favs. This time I felt like taking her to one of her favs. It's not my fav, but there is a dish there I can't get very many places any more. That's what I had, and yes, I did enjoy it.

 

(SF comment -- btw, "SF" = Sexual Fulfillment, stated that way as a need on the MB forum, where I learned it) Great.

 

It was! :-)

 

She "took it back." Did she sincerely apologize to you for saying it? Did she "take it back" because it wasn't true in the first place, and she said it just to hurt you? If so, did she explain why she wanted to hurt you? If it was true in the first place, then what does "taking it back" actually mean?

 

Hmmm, no, didn't really apologize for it, but it wasn't something like an insult or hurtful comment. It was more of a statement, taking a position on something we've done in our intimate lives which I got more gratification out of than she did. At the time, she said she didn't want that to be part of our intimacy any more. When asked why she'd ever done it, particularly on said minivacation, she said she was "being giving".

 

What she took back was her stance on that, said she can see where there might be times it was appropriate.

 

The proof will be if she does it or not...

 

It seems that all your wife has done is gotten a little bit more adept at knowing how to verbally manipulate you. She knows she has to at least give some lip service to respecting your feelings.

 

Maybe she has been reading relationship books and has figured out things she needs to say to make you think she cares. All she really did was offer you some words at a time (celebrating your 8th anniversary) when you must have been quite obviously very vulnerable to wanting to believe anything she told you. She was in a good mood because you took her to a favorite restaurant, you were catering to her, she was in complete control of the situation, so she threw you a couple of bones. It didn't cost her anything. Nothing has changed.

 

She hasn't "done" anything at all. She's told you something or things which may or may not be true and may or may not be sincere. She realizes you suspect her of cheating and that you've finally started to stand up for yourself. What has really "changed"?

 

Um, I'm "finally start(ing) to stand up for (myself)"...

 

Other than verbalizations--telling you things that you wanted to hear--what if anything did your wife actually do that is any different?

 

She changed my expectation from something being complately closed to being open.

 

I'm afraid it's just a quid pro quo from what you described. You took her out to a nice dinner at a favorite restaurant, in return, she said some nice things to you that she knew would make you feel better that evening.

 

Try buying her an expensive piece of jewelry and she'll probably tell you that she really loves you and perhaps might even have sex with you and tell you how great you are in bed.

 

You make it sound like we never have sex. That's pretty funny...

 

Well she's apparently successfully distracted you from pressuring her for more information about what happened last summer and what she spent that money on.

 

No, I actually have to blame that on a good friend who is also a friend of the M. He told me that if I kept on the course I was taking, that even if she never did anything wrong (as she maintains), I'm pretty much guaranteeing a D anyway (he's been there).

 

A real step in the right direction would be telling you what she spent the money on and providing verification for it, as well as answering any other questions you have about her unexplained behavior. Until you know what she did, you can't begin to really repair your marriage. Until she's willing to be truthful with you, you can't really begin to repair your marriage.

 

Time will tell. But yes, the trust issue is still eroded and I will always feel the need to be vigilant. If she DOES start acting strangely again (or perhaps is better at covering it up), I will be more aware and less naive than I was last summer...

 

What you've described is not "mutually unselfish" behavior, it's a quid pro quo, which is as I suspected.

 

Frankly, no matter how much I liked a particular restaurant, I couldn't really be happy eating there, esp. on an occasion like an anniversary, if I knew my wife didn't really care for the place. My being happy would depend on knowing that my spouse was happy.

 

I was fine with it. It was actually nice for a change. Sometimes we get in a rut. This was outside the rut.

 

In the situation you described it seems like the only thing you cared about was your wife's happiness and she apparently shares that viewpoint: the only thing she cares about is your wife's happiness.

 

If you didn't like the restaurant, what do you think you are gaining by taking her there? Do you really think it's helpful that you're acting like a martyr and she's perceiving that you're doing so?

 

Your relationship is so dysfunctional that you think you're not even allowed to have your anniversary dinner at a restaurant that you also enjoy. And, your wife apparently thinks it's completely OK for that to happen too.

 

What is so rosy about the scenario that you have portrayed?

 

While I appreciate some of your observations, the last section didn't touch reality at any two consecutive points, so I can't really comment on it...

[sruben]

These "good friends" ordinarily turn out to be the guy who's banging your w.

 

Hope it's not true in your case.

 

He's a good friend of mine, not hers. She never sees him, I doubt she'd even recognize him if he walked up to her (our social lives are not terribly integrated, unfortunately). Thanks for the well wishes.

[sruben]

Okay, so we celebrated our 8th anniv. last week, had great SF that evening, things were peaceful the rest of the week, but waning. By Sat, she got pissed off at DSD16 over some driving errors (mostly non-serious, but one almost resulted in a collision!). W has serious control issues. We dropped off DSD14 at one place, then DSD16 drove to her destination and I drove from there. W was VERY quiet. I asked if she was okay, she screamed at me "NO, I AM NOT OKAY!!!" Don't know why she's screaming at me, I didn't do anything to piss her off (that I know of, anyway) -- I am becoming convinced that my W is BPD. Interesting, since I bought a book about that a few weeks ago, had forgotten about it while reading the other books.

 

So, now I know what I'll be reading the next week or two...

 

Oh, we laid down yesterday to "take a nap" (which on Sun is often, though not always, preceded by SF). The weather was very hot, wee were both tired and sweaty. I could have gone for it, but it was obvious that she really wasn't interested. But when we went to bed last night, she offered, so I went for it. I enjoyed it, felt good to be wrapped up in each other again.

 

This morning, though, I am still haunted by the fact that she hasn't disclosed anything about last summer. One of my friends counseled me to just drop it if I wanted to save the M. But my brain is having trouble keeping open two versions of the "truth". Lots of cognitive dissonance and the stress that results. :-(

[sruben]

I see my replies to his posts, but don't see his posts in my thread any more.

 

I didn't know someone could remove all their posts, I thought this stuff lived forever?

[spriggig]

... W was VERY quiet. I asked if she was okay, she screamed at me "NO, I AM NOT OKAY!!!" Don't know why she's screaming at me, I didn't do anything to piss her off (that I know of, anyway)...(

 

You noticed something was wrong and asked, and she responded in no uncertain terms. That's some good communication right there!

 

I'm only half-joking here--my marriage was more like "don't ask, don't tell".

[silverfish]

I see my replies to his posts, but don't see his posts in my thread any more.

 

I didn't know someone could remove all their posts, I thought this stuff lived forever?

 

He got banned and all his posts removed from various threads. He's a troll, I expect he'll be back with a new username pretty soon frothing at the mouth about cheaters usually.

[2sunny]

if you want her to disclose her truth - just tell her it's imminent and necessary for healing in the M.

 

if she's unwilling to be honest, then ask her to move until she becomes a willing participant who ceases the lying.

 

yes, omitting the truth is still a lie. it favors the one with holding the truth and harms the one the truth is held from. healing cannot begin if one wants this and another won't give what is needed to heal.

 

ask her. listen with an open mind.

[sruben]

if you want her to disclose her truth - just tell her it's imminent and necessary for healing in the M.

 

She'll say that I'm the one destroying the M with my "constant suspicion and bringing up the past". I'm pretty convinced she's BPD, she's certainly a master at setting up the no-win situation.

 

Although since this tends to come up on occasion, I believe there will probably be an occasion to deal with it again.

 

Right now, she seems to be doing a lot to placate me (or maybe genuinely working on the M, hope rings eternal). She is going through Five Languages with me in an effort to determine what her primary love language is -- and it wasn't my idea (it was hers -- well, at the suggest of the Pastor via his sermon. That is, he didn't tell us specifically, said every M couple should go through that book, together preferably).

 

if she's unwilling to be honest, then ask her to move until she becomes a willing participant who ceases the lying.

 

But I can't prove the lying, and without any solid evidence, I think she could cast me as the "bad guy" in all this if I did that.

 

IC made a similar suggestion, but one that is more passive -- makes the decision to leave entirely hers.

 

yes, omitting the truth is still a lie. it favors the one with holding the truth and harms the one the truth is held from. healing cannot begin if one wants this and another won't give what is needed to heal.

 

ask her. listen with an open mind.

 

I agree completely with that. Withholding truth gives the one who has it more power over the other -- and I recognize that, she even admits that, she's a control freak. I am working on equalizing that power imbalance by implementing some of the 180 -- it was working really good a few weeks ago, she was ALL initiating ILY's and affection like she hasn't in over 4 years!