Wants to live together before being engaged

[ADF]

Refusal or not... You can live as partners in a relationship where there is mutual love and trust. What you write can not be anything more than an assumption. Furthermore, a boyfriend or lover is not an insurance company. A woman feeling unloved and insecure just because of that is ridiculous. In that case I have every right in doubting the woman's love in a man. Likewise, a man asking for a pre-nup in marriage lacks the thing called TRUST. I am sorry but, in both cases there is no good in pursuing the relationship. In first case the female lacks self-esteem and does not trust the male whileas in the second case the male does not trust the female. Simple as.

 

Your second paragraph stresses differences between our biologies. Again here I say, it is all upto the couple to remain as partners or get married, have kids or not. It will be funny to ask a male to marry saying "I'm 40 and my times of having a kid is running out so let's marry and have kids. We don't have any time to loose...." Issues like having a child at a certain age are all factors that are secondary when it comes to loving each other and being in a relationship based on trust. Sorry but, I do not buy that one either )

 

Sorry, I am not making an unwarranted assumptions. I work in family law, and I deal with these kinds of issues every day. A man who stays with a woman for years and years yet refuses to marry her is hurting her 99 out of a 100 times. She may not say much about it. After a certain point, especially if they have kids, she just kind of resigns herself to the fact he doesn't love her enough to commit. Then, when the couple splits up, it all comes out. But please, don't take my word for it. Ask any woman.

 

There are more practical considerations as well. Like it or not, being married offers people certain important legal protections. For exmaple, in my state (Illinois), a married couple can take possession of their home under a rule called tenancy in the entirety. Under this rule, should either partner in the marriage fall into debt, creditors are forbidden from forcing a sale of the couples' home in order to pay off the debt. The couple may be broke, but they won't be homeless. That is a HUGE advantage that only married couples can get.

[nowomanocry]

Quite real. Neighbor of my best friend. Made millions moving houses. Great guy. He cared for his wife for three years as she died of cancer. I'm glad he's found someone compatible.

 

Yeah, old generation. I am really stunned. Not many left like him and his partner.

 

We have a lot to learn from them. About forgotten values like trust, honesty, real love, real committment. Not just a signature on a piece of paper. Sad to see all this being history nowadays. All those good values are lost....

[Crazy Magnet]

Yeah, old generation. I am really stunned. Not many left like him and his partner.

 

We have a lot to learn from them. About forgotten values like trust, honesty, real love, real committment. Not just a signature on a piece of paper. Sad to see all this being history nowadays. All those good values are lost....

 

Since when does marriage not signify trust, honesty, real love, and real commitment? Last I checked those were the reasons people got married. (Yes, there are many wack jobs out there getting married for other bizarre reasons, but I'm only talking about the emotionally well-adjusted people.)

 

I personally want the piece of paper to back up my relationship although it took several years of soul searching to reach that conclusion. Wanting to get married is not just a female phenomenon. I had several 2-2.5+ year relationships where I would let the guy know up front that I was not interested in getting married ever. By the two year mark, it was all they talked about, wanted me to change my mind, and were generally very unhappy that they couldn't get to marriage with me.

 

Rather than keep dating them though I realized that they wanted something I was not willing to offer at the time and ended it. So men can be marriage crazy IMO too!

 

In terms of living together, I have co-habitated before (with one of these marriage crazy guys!) and I'm about to do it again, but this time I wasn't willing to mingle my things unless marriage was going to happen sooner rather than later. Carhill has some great points about mingling things once there are substantial assets. At 30 and 35 both my boyfriend and I have things we need to protect. I would definitely consider endless cohabitation if I were in my 70's, but not at my age when I still want babies.

[nowomanocry]

Since when does marriage not signify trust, honesty, real love, and real commitment? Last I checked those were the reasons people got married. (Yes, there are many wack jobs out there getting married for other bizarre reasons, but I'm only talking about the emotionally well-adjusted people.) --> Never said marriage does not entail those values. All I say is that if two people are happy together it does not necessarily have to be officially signed.

 

 

I personally want the piece of paper to back up my relationship although it took several years of soul searching to reach that conclusion. Wanting to get married is not just a female phenomenon. I had several 2-2.5+ year relationships where I would let the guy know up front that I was not interested in getting married ever. By the two year mark, it was all they talked about, wanted me to change my mind, and were generally very unhappy that they couldn't get to marriage with me. --> Right, now we talking eh?... you want that paper to back up your relationship? If you do not trust the efficiency of your soul search and not trust the person you have found how do you rely on a piece of paper?

 

What I like here is that you have been honest and not forced anyone into it while there are some of those women who really are desperate to marry a man! I doubt they were willing to marry you as well, that might be the case when you turn the card Ahhh us men lol

 

Rather than keep dating them though I realized that they wanted something I was not willing to offer at the time and ended it. So men can be marriage crazy IMO too! --> yeah, most men talk the talk but when it comes to walk the walk? How can you be so sure they were honest in all those proposals? asking a girl to marry and then running away after they've got what they want is very common amongst us males.

 

In terms of living together, I have co-habitated before (with one of these marriage crazy guys!) and I'm about to do it again, but this time I wasn't willing to mingle my things unless marriage was going to happen sooner rather than later. Carhill has some great points about mingling things once there are substantial assets. At 30 and 35 both my boyfriend and I have things we need to protect. I would definitely consider endless cohabitation if I were in my 70's, but not at my age when I still want babies.[/quote]--> please see the previous paragraph lol

[jthorne]

In my case, a pre-nup is required on both our parts because we both help run family businesses. We each have living trusts.

 

A long time ago, I lived with a guy I was engaged to. I later thought he was the "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" person. I thought we'd never set a date. That was my first clue that I shouldn't be marrying him anyway.

 

I tend to be cautious, so I don't think I would ever marry someone without living with them first. I want to get an idea of what to expect. Who knows? You might live with him and decide it's YOU that doesn't want to marry him.

Edited May 25, 2010 by jthorne

[Crazy Magnet]

Since when does marriage not signify trust, honesty, real love, and real commitment? Last I checked those were the reasons people got married. (Yes, there are many wack jobs out there getting married for other bizarre reasons, but I'm only talking about the emotionally well-adjusted people.) --> Never said marriage does not entail those values. All I say is that if two people are happy together it does not necessarily have to be officially signed.

 

In academia, I see a lot of women professors who espouse this same kind of crap. They want a "life partner" and kids but not marriage b/c marriage is a reflection of a patriarchal society. These are the same women who refuse to dress any potential child in anything but yellow and green gender neutral clothing b/c they don't want to "force a stereotype" on their child. What I find really interesting, is although they have managed to achieve tenure before 40, they are all still going from boyfriend to boyfriend every few years. So in another 10 or 20 years, when they move into the stage of life where time is spent reflecting on accomplishments and life worth, they aren't going to have anyone to reflect with. Research doesn't talk back. Men aren't willing to commit a life to a woman who's first commitment is her research and I don't think they should. For a life long relationship to work I think you've got to commit your lives to each other very prominently, and that is what marriage does.

 

I personally want the piece of paper to back up my relationship although it took several years of soul searching to reach that conclusion. Wanting to get married is not just a female phenomenon. I had several 2-2.5+ year relationships where I would let the guy know up front that I was not interested in getting married ever. By the two year mark, it was all they talked about, wanted me to change my mind, and were generally very unhappy that they couldn't get to marriage with me. --> Right, now we talking eh?... you want that paper to back up your relationship? If you do not trust the efficiency of your soul search and not trust the person you have found how do you rely on a piece of paper?

 

The soul searching was to decide whether or not I would want to get married if the right man came along. (See previous paragraph about being in academia....liberal feminist views often seem to be expected of us *sigh* ) There's no point in saying I'll "never" do something. If marriage happens for me, great, if not great, I can take it or leave it. But if I meet a man I'm willing to spend the rest of my life with I don't want to take the marriage option away simply because I can. I most definitely trust my soul search with regards to what I want in life and I would never marry a man that I didn't trust was in it for the long haul or the right reasons. The piece of paper represents a much larger commitment to making it work than the title "boyfriend."

 

What I like here is that you have been honest and not forced anyone into it while there are some of those women who really are desperate to marry a man! I doubt they were willing to marry you as well, that might be the case when you turn the card Ahhh us men lol

 

Yep, I know those girls. They are crazy and several of my friends think that way. We've hit our early 30's and the biological clock is beating everyone over the head. They think I'm nuts for not getting married when I've had opportunities but I think they are nuts for getting married just to get married. Since when is that a good idea!?!

 

Rather than keep dating them though I realized that they wanted something I was not willing to offer at the time and ended it. So men can be marriage crazy IMO too! --> yeah, most men talk the talk but when it comes to walk the walk? How can you be so sure they were honest in all those proposals? asking a girl to marry and then running away after they've got what they want is very common amongst us males.

 

I do not doubt that any of the men in my life I mentioned wanted to marry me, especially the one who whipped out the ring. Talk about awkward. Men don't tend to run away from normal stable girls. In fact they keep coming back over and over, years later. Which also gets annoying.

 

In terms of living together, I have co-habitated before (with one of these marriage crazy guys!) and I'm about to do it again, but this time I wasn't willing to mingle my things unless marriage was going to happen sooner rather than later. Carhill has some great points about mingling things once there are substantial assets. At 30 and 35 both my boyfriend and I have things we need to protect. I would definitely consider endless cohabitation if I were in my 70's, but not at my age when I still want babies.[/quote]--> please see the previous paragraph lol

[ADF]

That first line is ridiculous. Just because a girl is marriage crazed and obsessed with it does not always mean she is more committed. She just needs the validation of the marriage certificate more.

 

Oh, c'mon now. That's just not true.

 

It isn't women who are "marriage crazed" or "obsessed." It is the men who are obsessed--with NOT getting married. If a marriage certificate really is just a "piece of paper," if it really means so little, why do so many men resist marriage down to the last drop of their blood?

 

Frankly, I think most men just don't want to commit, period. They want total freedom, to keep their options open forever. Even if they spend 10, 15, or 20 years with a woman, they still want the freedom to walk out any time, not owning anything, and never having to look back. That's all it is.

[FitChick]

I think it's a good idea to live together first before getting married. However, I would only do this "AFTER" we have gotten engaged and set a wedding date. This way, you both know what to expect.

 

During this time, if you decide you're not good living together, then you can cancel the wedding, move out, and move on with your life.

 

I agree to wait until you have a ring and a date. Then he will take it more seriously and so will your friends and family which will put some pressure on him to use the engagement period as a time for testing the relationship to make sure you want to spend the rest of your lives together.

 

It sounds like he isn't very financially secure if he has a roommate at his age which is something to consider if you want to have kids.

[Woggle]

That first line is ridiculous. Just because a girl is marriage crazed and obsessed with it does not always mean she is more committed. She just needs the validation of the marriage certificate more.

 

Very true. Women who are wedding obsessed are actually the first to walk when marriage turns out not to be the impossible fantasy they had built in their head. Legal marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper that just makes it harder to get out if things do go bad. This is not to say that a couple can't make it mean something more if they are truly commited but the piece of paper by itself means nothing.

[nowomanocry]

Oh, c'mon now. That's just not true.

 

It isn't women who are "marriage crazed" or "obsessed." It is the men who are obsessed--with NOT getting married. If a marriage certificate really is just a "piece of paper," if it really means so little, why do so many men resist marriage down to the last drop of their blood?

 

Frankly, I think most men just don't want to commit, period. They want total freedom, to keep their options open forever. Even if they spend 10, 15, or 20 years with a woman, they still want the freedom to walk out any time, not owning anything, and never having to look back. That's all it is.

 

So from your post what do we conclude?

 

Women commit to a marriage because they want to chain a man for years and if he dare walks away that piece of paper will make him stay?

 

So, if you are in favor of a marriage you will be OK with signing a pre-nup as well yeah? Should I get this message from your last post?

 

----

 

As I said, you can not keep a man by marriage or any other piece of paper. I sincerely believe that if two people are made for each other they should not worry about all this. Maybe I'm naive but that how I think and feel. I think I'm living in another world. Sorry about that

[ADF]

So from your post what do we conclude?

 

Women commit to a marriage because they want to chain a man for years and if he dare walks away that piece of paper will make him stay?

 

So, if you are in favor of a marriage you will be OK with signing a pre-nup as well yeah? Should I get this message from your last post?

 

----

 

As I said, you can not keep a man by marriage or any other piece of paper. I sincerely believe that if two people are made for each other they should not worry about all this. Maybe I'm naive but that how I think and feel. I think I'm living in another world. Sorry about that

 

Let me answer the second part of your question first.

 

Pre-nups are a fantastic idea. As I said before, I work in a family law office, and am speaking from experience. When people find themselves facing divorce, most are worried about getting a bad settlement. That fear is real enough. But what they don't realize is that often, the worst part isn't the settlement, but the process. Even if the ultimate settlement is equitable, by the time people reach an agreement, they are bitter and exhausted. Pre-nups drastically shorten the divorce process, which save people untold amounts of time, money and aggravation.

 

As for the first part of your question: no, a marriage certificate will not make a man stay with a woman if he truly wants to leave her. But that isn't the point. I think it is interesting that you use the word "chain" to describe what a marriage certificate is. A lot of men agree. What they want is total freedom to walk out on their women, abandon their children, and not pay a dime in support or be responsible in any way to any of them. Well, sorry, but I don't think they should be allowed to do that. Being legally married makes it much harder for men to walk away from their responsibilities. Not impossible, but much harder.

[Lauriebell82]

As for the first part of your question: no, a marriage certificate will not make a man stay with a woman if he truly wants to leave her. But that isn't the point. I think it is interesting that you use the word "chain" to describe what a marriage certificate is. A lot of men agree. What they want is total freedom to walk out on their women, abandon their children, and not pay a dime in support or be responsible in any way to any of them. Well, sorry, but I don't think they should be allowed to do that. Being legally married makes it much harder for men to walk away from their responsibilities. Not impossible, but much harder.

 

Marriage isn't MEANT to be something you even should be able to walk away from...and it used to be that way! I personally don't think a marriage certificate is "a piece of paper" but it's viewed as that nowadays. I find that sad. I think it's this cynical attitude about marriage that is contributing to the high divorce rate.

[sweetjasmine]

Women commit to a marriage because they want to chain a man for years and if he dare walks away that piece of paper will make him stay?

 

You're saying marriage is a way for a woman to chain a man for years. But it's also a meaningless piece of paper that wouldn't prevent him from walking out the door tomorrow. So which is it?

[carhill]

OP, question...

 

Do you see a romantic, intimate relationship as a pathway of progression, with particular steps in a particular order along the path?

 

A gross example of a disjointed path might be becoming infatuated with someone and wanting to move in with them.

 

An example of a progressive path might be meeting someone, finding them attractive, going out on a date, feeling physically affectionate, dating some more, feeling sexually affectionate, dating some more, becoming emotionally attached, sharing ILY's, feeling committed, wanting to spend your lives together, becoming officially 'engaged', getting married and living together.

 

Those are some examples. What is your path, does it match up with his and, if not, is changing your path a deal-breaker or not? In my progressive example, some people, like your intended, wants to 'live-together' before 'engaged' or 'married'. Do you see yourself bending here, or do you view it as 'going backwards'? To me, that's critical. I could never bend enough to live with someone I wasn't married to. That's pretty rigid. Is it healthy? Unknown. Maybe, next time, I'll let the cat decide

[ADF]

Marriage isn't MEANT to be something you even should be able to walk away from...and it used to be that way! I personally don't think a marriage certificate is "a piece of paper" but it's viewed as that nowadays. I find that sad. I think it's this cynical attitude about marriage that is contributing to the high divorce rate.

 

To be fair, a high divorce rate is the price we pay for living in a free society. Look at any society where the divorce rate is low and you'll find several things:

 

1) Women have no rights.

2) Marriages are arranged.

3) The marriage relationship is purely functional. No one expects to be "happy" in marriage.

4) Divorced people suffer tremendous social stigma. This is especially true for women and children.

 

The idea that earlier generations valued marriage more is a myth. They "valued" it because divorce was not an option. For example, in the US, it used to be that upon marriage, a woman's money and property because the money and property of her husband. How could a woman divorce? She'd be destitute.

[linwood]

engagements are meant to be broken

 

Indeed and they`re much easier to break than marriages.

 

That`s why I wouldn`t marry someone I`d never lived with.

 

[allina]

I moved in with my fiance before we were engaged. When I made the decision I never even considered if it will make proposal less likely, we just wanted to live together.

 

While I suppose I can see both sides of the issue, I do believe that by living together you learn how to run a household together. We live in a time where both partners are likely to work, pay the household bills, have credit cards and debt. By living together and building that household together you learn important things about how your partner handles these issues and determine if it's something you're comfortable with.

 

My fiance and I made some pretty major decisions before getting engaged/married. I can honestly say that the way we have navigated through these decisions and events together made us a more solid couple.

[Lauriebell82]

 

My fiance and I made some pretty major decisions before getting engaged/married. I can honestly say that the way we have navigated through these decisions and events together made us a more solid couple.

 

Yeah, definately! Same here.

 

I'm all for living together before marriage, it does serve it's purpose and is beneficial for a relationship. The negative is the man dragging his feet about proposing because he's already comfy in the living situation. But seriously, I have said this before..living together will not stop a man from proposing IF she is the one he wants to spend the rest of his life with and commit to. If a man isn't proposing in a cohabitating situation (and I mean like 5+ years) then he either isn't:

 

1. interested in getting married at all

2. interested in getting married to his girlfriend

 

Personally, I would make SURE that the 1st reason happens prior to moving in. The second is a little more tricky, the boyfriend can always get around that if he really wants to.

[nowomanocry]

You're saying marriage is a way for a woman to chain a man for years. But it's also a meaningless piece of paper that wouldn't prevent him from walking out the door tomorrow. So which is it?

 

Chain I should've used in " " sorry

 

For me it is not a chain - it is meaningless anyway all those papers...

[nowomanocry]

Let me make myself clear

 

All I say is....

 

Two people really in love and willing to share life together "till the end of time" should not need a certificate. Carhill's example is a very good one on this. Some will say well that is an old couple, well, I'm sorry but that is just an excuse. Old or young, we have a couple who trust each other and I think that is lovely. Hereby, I do not blame the ones who have difficulties in trusting each other. We made the world this way. It is all our fault.

 

In the mean time, of course I believe that males running away from their responsibilities after marriage and having kids is awful and very wrong. Likewise after 3 years of committed relationship what my "ex" did was also wrong. I have never ever done such a thing in my life. 44 y.o I have lived many relationships and never promised anything that I can not commit or give.

 

Finally, those women who are so eager to "chain" a man with marriage should not be against signing a pre-nup.

 

This is what I think...

[sweetjasmine]

Two people really in love and willing to share life together "till the end of time" should not need a certificate.

 

There's no way on earth I would buy a home and share a bank account, credit, and a mortgage with someone without a pre-nup and a marriage certificate. No, thanks. I don't want to be reckless with my finances and his, regardless of how in love we are.

 

And that's not even addressing all of the legal benefits of marriage.

[nowomanocry]

There's no way on earth I would buy a home and share a bank account, credit, and a mortgage with someone without a pre-nup and a marriage certificate. No, thanks. I don't want to be reckless with my finances and his, regardless of how in love we are.

 

And that's not even addressing all of the legal benefits of marriage.

 

I wouldn't expect that anyway lol

[VikingPrincess]

I did not cave and move in with him. He kept asking me though up until the day he picked out a roommate. Again I want to let you know he makes plenty of money but doesn't want to waste it on paying for a big house himself in rent. This makes sense to me as I am very careful with my money and I know he is too. I am 32 years old and I am ready to be with the right one for me. I feel he presents a good balance in my life. I am in love with him but at this age I don't want to make any more foolish decisions. Moving in at this juncture felt desperate and as one poster said...a compromise that I am not willing to make.

I am a bit angry though as I told him that I would be putting in my notice and moving out in 2 months and that when I get an apartment it will at least be a 6 month lease so the soonest anything could happen as far as living together(assuming he proposed in this time span) would be 8 months. At first he looked upset and teary. Then said nothing. I asked are you okay with this? He said no but to do what I had to do. DO WHAT I HAD TO DO?

I feel that we are no further to a time line or a goal than we were 2 weeks ago.

[Lauriebell82]

I did not cave and move in with him. He kept asking me though up until the day he picked out a roommate. Again I want to let you know he makes plenty of money but doesn't want to waste it on paying for a big house himself in rent. This makes sense to me as I am very careful with my money and I know he is too. I am 32 years old and I am ready to be with the right one for me. I feel he presents a good balance in my life. I am in love with him but at this age I don't want to make any more foolish decisions. Moving in at this juncture felt desperate and as one poster said...a compromise that I am not willing to make.

I am a bit angry though as I told him that I would be putting in my notice and moving out in 2 months and that when I get an apartment it will at least be a 6 month lease so the soonest anything could happen as far as living together(assuming he proposed in this time span) would be 8 months. At first he looked upset and teary. Then said nothing. I asked are you okay with this? He said no but to do what I had to do. DO WHAT I HAD TO DO?

I feel that we are no further to a time line or a goal than we were 2 weeks ago.

 

Good job!!! You didn't cave in with all his pressure. IMO he is being rather immature about this. He kept bugging you about it after you had already told him no. Thats not cool. I think he needs to accept your feelings about it and support your decision.

 

Maybe he'll step up to the plate now that he realizes he is going to have to commit in order for you to move in. Would you consider moving in with him after you get engaged or not into you are actually married?

Edited May 31, 2010 by Lauriebell82

[allina]

VP, maybe he doesn't want to orchestrate the proposal around your lease schedule. You seem irritated with him because your lease is up in 2 months and your want a convenient proposal sometime between now and then. This just seems like such a power struggle, and so unnatural for adults who are in love and want to spend their lives together.