Saying cheating is biological is not an excuse

[clv0116]

The human species isn't programmed to be monogomous.

 

By and large the solutions stable human societies come up with for reproduction cast doubt on your assertion.

[harmfulsweetz]

I said they weren't made to be, didn't say they couldn't be. Truth is, if it wasn't drummed into us and if we weren't made to feel so bad about having multiple partners chances are, we wouldn't be monogomous, we would follow nature.

[clv0116]

...we wouldn't be monogomous, we would follow nature.

 

If a predilection for monogamy was not natural, where did it come from? I'd contend the overwhelming prevalence of monogamy is a strong indicator it is in fact a strong reproductive strategy and therefore encouraged by human nature.

[harmfulsweetz]

Surely if its a reproductive strategy, in that light, in order to reproduce, we would be sleeping with everybody in order to do so. Reproduction should stop...overpopulation anyone? Anyway, 'nother matter entirely.

[utterer of lies]

If a predilection for monogamy was not natural, where did it come from? I'd contend the overwhelming prevalence of monogamy is a strong indicator it is in fact a strong reproductive strategy and therefore encouraged by human nature.

 

It's a strategy to minimize intra-societal aggression. Cultures where monogamy is not the norm lead to many young men with no chance of ever getting a wife, while powerful men got many. This is a very destabilizing influence. Monogamy ensures that every man gets a woman, and acts as stabilizing force.

 

And there is no 'overwhelming prevalence' of monogamy. Humans have never been 'overwhelmingly' monogamous. Even in western society you get an annual prevalence for infidelity of more than 7% in women, even more in men. Around 5-10% of all children are 'cuckoos'. Again, this is just for western society, and the cheating data is self-confessed, so the real number is likely to be much higher.

 

There are additional factors such as sexual dimorphism and the fact that humans have not traditionally been sedentary...

 

Sill, for many people (sequential) monogamy is the ideal way for relationships, and is not worth anything less just because for most of the time, other forms have been predominant.

[lkjh]

Cheating is not biological, we already had this debate on another thread and you just ignored everything and said it was biological.

 

You say that scientist have proven this, then please provide 3 links to scientific journals with overwhelming evidence.

[westernxer]

Cheating is not biological, we already had this debate on another thread and you just ignored everything and said it was biological.

 

Amen.

 

The urge is biological.

 

The act is psychological.

 

Or something like that.

[Hkizzle]

Cheating is not biological, we already had this debate on another thread and you just ignored everything and said it was biological.

 

You say that scientist have proven this, then please provide 3 links to scientific journals with overwhelming evidence.

 

This thread is even older than the other thread. It's just been bumped that's all.

 

I cited 3 books for you to read. They cite numerous studies. I don't read individual studies as they are very long and show a lot of statistics in order to arrive at a conclusion.

 

Read the books in this order:

 

The Red Queen: Sex and the evolution of human nature

Sperm Wars

The selfish Gene.

 

The last book isn't specifically on cheating, but is written by Stephen Dawkins and is one of the most famous scientific books out there. Explains how a lot of behaviors in nature are driven by our genes and even if it causes harm to the organism and brings unhappiness the organism is compelled to carry it out, because it adds to reproductive success.

[lkjh]

The Red Queen which is not based on 100% fact but instead on the authors personal opinion does not say that we are biologically geared to cheat. The books main purpose is say that sex helps weed out disease and parasite which in turn has given us good genes and makes us intelligent. The book even says that our intelligence out ways our biological needs for survival. Meaning our ability to think gears us so therefor you can not say that cheating is biological, cheating is a term brought about by our intelligence. and controlled by our intellegence. It is up to each person individually to determine what is more important to them sex or fidelity.

 

 

Sperm Wars didn't even come close to providing enough evidence to come to the conclusion that cheating is biological. All it really did is pull together some common sexual habits in OUR society and try to explain them. It is not a scientific journal, it is not being taught in multiple campus around the world and it did not prove that cheating is biological.

 

The Selfish gene was authored by Richard Dawkins not stephen and it follows the path of the others. It does not prove cheating is biological.

 

 

You need to give scientific papers not books made for Barnes and Nobles shelves. By the way no one has been able to locate a gene responsible for making people cheat and nobody has ever located one.

[Hkizzle]

The book even says that our intelligence out ways our biological needs for survival.

 

It is up to each person individually to determine what is more important to them sex or fidelity.

 

 

Ok good, you've read it then.

 

Thing is, you're selective picking out information to support an existing opinion of yours. That's not scientific thinking. I see it the most often in creationists. They have an existing opinion, which is that the bible is written literally and evolution is a lie.

 

Then they selectively only look at the data that supports their view, and discard anything that doesn't.

 

The only two statements you made that is true are quoted above. Our intelligence can surpass our biological drives, just as I can feel hunger and yet not eat. So even if I am biologically driven to cheat, my morality can control it.

 

Yet, so many people cheat.................

 

So what you're saying is, it's not biological. We go and encourage people to go cheat.......I find that thought process even more disturbing.

[Hkizzle]

I mean seriously come on. You're selectively picking out what information you process.

 

The book has an entire chapter called "Polygamy and the nature of men", with numerous examples of how adultery increases reproductive success, and you manage to say the author's message is: The book even says that our intelligence out ways our biological needs for survival."

[westernxer]

I mean seriously come on. You're selectively picking out what information you process.

 

The book has an entire chapter called "Polygamy and the nature of men", with numerous examples of how adultery increases reproductive success, and you manage to say the author's message is: The book even says that our intelligence out ways our biological needs for survival."

 

The book is not without its criticisms...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene#Acclaim_and_criticism

[Hkizzle]

I was quoting a chapter from the Red Queen and not the selfish gene.

 

But regarding the selfish gene.

 

1) Group selection thoery: Yes, many scientists believe in group selection as opposed to gene selection. But the evidence is against them. It even says so in that wiki post.

 

2) Genotypes vs phenotype: Whilst phenotype is what we see and not genotype. Small differences in genotype that create advantages is what's past on.

 

3) Morality: This arguement is similar to what IKJH is arguing. That we're smart enough to think beyond and control our biology.

 

That still doesn't exclude though that certain things are biologically driven in the first place........

[clv0116]

.... there is no 'overwhelming prevalence' of monogamy .... in western society you get an annual prevalence for infidelity of more than 7% in women....

 

Mmmm, 100 - 7 = 93?

[utterer of lies]

Mmmm, 100 - 7 = 93?

 

Annual prevalence. No wonder you don't get science with your very selective reading comprehension.

 

Lifetime self-reported infidelity prevalence is ~60-70%, depending on gender.

[lkjh]

Ok good, you've read it then.

 

Thing is, you're selective picking out information to support an existing opinion of yours. That's not scientific thinking. I see it the most often in creationists. They have an existing opinion, which is that the bible is written literally and evolution is a lie.

 

Then they selectively only look at the data that supports their view, and discard anything that doesn't.

 

The only two statements you made that is true are quoted above. Our intelligence can surpass our biological drives, just as I can feel hunger and yet not eat. So even if I am biologically driven to cheat, my morality can control it.

 

Yet, so many people cheat.................

 

So what you're saying is, it's not biological. We go and encourage people to go cheat.......I find that thought process even more disturbing.

 

 

You are doing the same exact thing, and you are missing the most important part.............you are using this book to prove something that it did not prove. We have never located a single gene that causes people to cheat. What these books have done is simply take what we already know about biology and form a social opinion. None of these books are scientific findings, they social theories.

 

Find some scientific journals that show studies that prove this. You won't be able to because its the same argument that alcoholics try to use. They say drinking is genetic and there are tons of books on it when in reality nobody has ever proven this

Yet, so many people cheat.................

 

So what you're saying is, it's not biological. We go and encourage people to go cheat.......I find that thought process even more disturbing.

[lkjh]

and yes we are encouraging people to cheat, just take a look at every love story, it always involves someone cheating. Every women's novel that involves a middle aged housewife has her cheating and then living happily ever after

[utterer of lies]

You are doing the same exact thing, and you are missing the most important part.............you are using this book to prove something that it did not prove. We have never located a single gene that causes people to cheat. What these books have done is simply take what we already know about biology and form a social opinion. None of these books are scientific findings, they social theories.

 

Find some scientific journals that show studies that prove this.

 

Again, you are missing the point.

 

Cheating is a social construct, because it involves breaking a sexual exclusivity contract. This contract is an obvious cultural artifact, and therefore 'cheating is biological' does not make sense.

 

However, sexual non-exclusivity in humans has been the standard behavior for most of human existence.

[clv0116]

No wonder you don't get science with your very selective reading comprehension.

 

Actually I get paid to create intellectual property and have over one dozen patents on file. I also score among the top of the top 5% in IQ. How are you doing in terms of measurable intellectual accomplishments? Outside your own imagination I mean?

 

Moving on, you miss the point entirely. If monogamy were so unnatural, why would we see it crop up spontaneously over and over again as an ideal? Perhaps you nave to examine what you mean by natural and choose a different word.

[utterer of lies]

Actually I get paid to create intellectual property and have over one dozen patents on file. I also score among the top of the top 5% in IQ. How are you doing in terms of measurable intellectual accomplishments? Outside your own imagination I mean?

 

Top 5% doesn't even get you into mensa. And top of the top 5%...great, so what is it now? Why so imprecise? Takes all the fun out of comparing e-penises...

 

While I must admit that your a non-verifiable list of accomplishments completely convinced me of what an incredibly cool person you are, I do feel slightly shocked by your insinuation that my own accomplishments might be only imaginary.

 

Moving on, you miss the point entirely. If monogamy were so unnatural, why would we see it crop up spontaneously over and over again as an ideal? Perhaps you nave to examine what you mean by natural and choose a different word.

 

Please quote the part where I used the word 'natural' in my original post before making any more wild accusations.

 

And while you are at it, if you were to re-read that original post of mine you were answering to, you might come across this statement:

 

for many people (sequential) monogamy is the ideal way for relationships, and is not worth anything less just because for most of the time, other forms have been predominant.

 

Clearly, I never said anything against monogamy being a nice ideal. Realistically however, most humans do not lead a monogamous life, and this shows. I already mentioned it before, but most studies show a lifetime prevalence of (self-reported!) infidelity in western industrial societies of more than 60% in women and more than 70% in men.

 

But of course with your IQ so far above that of the average man, I'm sure you understand this already. All evidence points to the fact that it's indeed the fault of your old vice, the preference for selective reading.

[clv0116]

Please quote the part where I used the word 'natural' in my original post before making any more wild accusations.

 

I entered this thread by responding to this. Try to keep up.

[utterer of lies]

I entered this thread by responding to this. Try to keep up.

 

When you quoted my posts and wrote some text underneath the quoted text, I just assumed you were referring to them: here and here.

 

 

But if you merely quoted the wrong posts when answering, I apologize for assuming you did not make those mistakes.

 

I know I tend to overestimate people, it's a bad habit and I'm trying to get rid of it

[Hkizzle]

Again, you are missing the point.

 

Cheating is a social construct, because it involves breaking a sexual exclusivity contract. This contract is an obvious cultural artifact, and therefore 'cheating is biological' does not make sense.

 

However, sexual non-exclusivity in humans has been the standard behavior for most of human existence.

 

 

Utterer of lies put it better than me.

 

"Cheating is a social construct, because it involves breaking a sexual exclusivity contract. ."

 

"However, sexual non-exclusivity in humans has been the standard behavior for most of human existence"

 

Humans are not biologically geared towards being sexually exclusive and that's why so many people cheat even in societies with social stigma attached to it.

[clv0116]

I know I tend to overestimate people, it's a bad habit and I'm trying to get rid of it

 

I seldom do so, let me help your memory, our first interaction in this thread was when you responded to me here.

[clv0116]

Humans are not biologically geared towards being sexually exclusive and that's why so many people cheat even in societies with social stigma attached to it.

 

Please define "biologically geared".