Saying cheating is biological is not an excuse

[MrFun]

I prefer to look at it this way. It's not learned, rather it's an unlearned behavior. Society teaches us that cheating is bad. People that cheat are more likely to do it again because they remove their social suppression and embrace biological drives.

 

But don't societies construct rules and regulations to ensure better survival? Religion could in itself be such a framework, that helps society survive (at least before its perversion). It could be noted that it is not really "suppression" as such but mutually agreed upon rules that help survival.

 

What would happen if in the wild a beta took an alpha's mate? They'd get killed without remorse. That's a feeling a lot of people get when they're cheated on. They might not act upon it anymore, but deep down they want revenge.

 

To stop every party from cheating and killing eachother societies, herds and tribes (symbiotic environments) set up rules or hierarchies to avoid self-destruction.

 

I'd like to argue that cheaters do not remove their social suppression, but have learned "cheat" the rules of the herd.

 

Nowadays there's no punishment for their behaviour, they're not even ostracised, the negatives are removed and their behaviour is rewarded (as stated earlier, positives outweigh the negs).

 

This explains the CAD or DAD strategies in mating that many animals including some men pursue (in terms of their behavior). You either stick with one woman and make sure the chances of offspring survival is very high. Or mate with many women (players or in tribes alpha males) and even if a smaller percentage of offspring survive then you pass on my genes.

 

Also most alpha males can afford to bring in more offspring compared to a lower member of the tribe.

 

Alpha males might be able to do it twice or three times, chances are however beta males will eventually challenge the alpha (territorialism). Also, if the tribe is comprised is comprised of 5 or 6 males and one alpha, the predominant paradigm for mating should be one of monogamy because the beta/gamma/etc males cannot afford to pass on their genes as effectively as the alpha.

 

Cheaters are never alpha, because they know they can't gain one partner without losing another, hence the whole secrecy of it.

 

Now gaining a new partner openly and retaining the old partner, that's another story entirely

[sally4sara]

You need a certain level of development to do many actions or behaviors........

 

Lets say anger is a biologically inherited trait. Surely just because a kid isn't physically grown enough to throw a punch, doesn't mean he can't do it when he's 18 and angry?

 

You learn to speak then lie simply because your brain has to develop.........

 

Genetic predisposition is still there prior to physical development.

 

One can be angry and not punch someone over it by BOTH not knowing how AND not choosing to become physically aggressive, but sorry, you still need to have learned to speak to be able and willing to lie.

Do you have children yet? I do and the first time I told a lie in front of him, he piped right up and busted me out. When he was first learning to talk, it never occurred to him to try to lie and avoid the consequences. He still tells the truth as he knows it. In fact, I read some of this thread to my partner and when I got to the part about lying being a natural instinct, his first response was:

"That guy needs to meet our kid ."

[Trialbyfire]

Cheating is a form of mating.

Cheating is a combination of behaviours. Mating is the act of sexual intercourse. Lying and manipulation, are two forms of deceptive behaviour. While it's true that for some people, all three types of behaviour are part of their mating ritual, many people don't act like that, in order to mate.

[RedDevil66]

Prove this please, because if you don't know how to speak, you can't lie. If you've learned how to form sentences and communicate with these sentences, you've learned an number or other behaviors (like lying) while doing so. Parents may not want their children to lie and may even attempt to discourage the act, but we tell lies everyday without even realizing we are doing it sometimes and in effect teaching the children exposed to us the art of lying while not intending to teach them how to lie.

 

sure one can lie if they have no speach

 

Lying is the work of the ego. Animals don't lie,they have no ego

 

All the insanity and dirty work is the work of the ego, simple!

[RedDevil66]

But don't societies construct rules and regulations to ensure better survival? Religion could in itself be such a framework, that helps society survive (at least before its perversion). It could be noted that it is not really "suppression" as such but mutually agreed upon rules that help survival.

 

What would happen if in the wild a beta took an alpha's mate? They'd get killed without remorse. That's a feeling a lot of people get when they're cheated on. They might not act upon it anymore, but deep down they want revenge.

 

To stop every party from cheating and killing eachother societies, herds and tribes (symbiotic environments) set up rules or hierarchies to avoid self-destruction.

 

I'd like to argue that cheaters do not remove their social suppression, but have learned "cheat" the rules of the herd.

 

Nowadays there's no punishment for their behaviour, they're not even ostracised, the negatives are removed and their behaviour is rewarded (as stated earlier, positives outweigh the negs).

 

 

 

Alpha males might be able to do it twice or three times, chances are however beta males will eventually challenge the alpha (territorialism). Also, if the tribe is comprised is comprised of 5 or 6 males and one alpha, the predominant paradigm for mating should be one of monogamy because the beta/gamma/etc males cannot afford to pass on their genes as effectively as the alpha.

 

Cheaters are never alpha, because they know they can't gain one partner without losing another, hence the whole secrecy of it.

 

Now gaining a new partner openly and retaining the old partner, that's another story entirely

 

 

Love this post, Very well said and explained.

[Green]

If being with multiple sexual partners is a biological impulse it can be over come just like any other. Cheating is a form of lying and a loss of trust will happen afterward. Trust was probably everything even in the cave man days and even if cheating didn't exist you would still have to keep a persons trust and stay on there graces. If you want to sleep with many different people I sugest you don't enter a monogomis relationship

[Hkizzle]

Gimme a break! If cheating is so bilogical why are you going against your biological make-up and ending up in a monogamous relationship? Just find a partner who enjoys an open relationship and you never have to worry about your "bilogical" tendencies again. Simple!

 

Cheating isn't biological it is psychological. If you are true to what you choose for your life, you won't have any more needs for anyone else. If you are constantly telling yourself "rats, I should have had pizza instead of this steak I ordered," then guess what? You will never be happy with what you order.

 

.........because monogamy is deemed the best form of marriage in Judeo Christian culture, which is the struture in most developed countries these days.

 

In the vast majority of human cultures, polygamy has been the established rule. Where a wealhtier male would have many wives and concubines, and weaker males had none.

[Hkizzle]

Alpha males might be able to do it twice or three times, chances are however beta males will eventually challenge the alpha (territorialism). Also, if the tribe is comprised is comprised of 5 or 6 males and one alpha, the predominant paradigm for mating should be one of monogamy because the beta/gamma/etc males cannot afford to pass on their genes as effectively as the alpha.

 

Cheaters are never alpha, because they know they can't gain one partner without losing another, hence the whole secrecy of it.

 

Now gaining a new partner openly and retaining the old partner, that's another story entirely

 

The thing is because the alpha male more offspring, the desire to have more mates is passed on to a large number of offspirng. The optimal reproductive strategy is therefore to change strats depending on status.

 

You don't have to cheat, that's true. Vast majority of human cultures have been polygamous. But because our culture is not, people cheat to get around this restriction.

[butcher's hook]

.........because monogamy is deemed the best form of marriage in Judeo Christian culture, which is the structure in most developed countries these days.

 

In the vast majority of human cultures, polygamy has been the established rule. Where a wealhtier male would have many wives and concubines, and weaker males had none.

 

In the VAST MAJORITY of human cultures!?!? Whaaat? You mean like in 20 places tops? There is still an entire planet that does not adhere to that.

 

What can I say, move to Saudi Arabia then.

 

For the better part of the Christian world monogamy is the way of life, but even within our world there are still a good sector of the population that adheres to swinger culture. You don't need to be monogamous, you need to be with those people. Problem solved.

 

Trying to convince the rest of the population that monogamy is not the way to go seems like trying to tell the female populations of progressive first world nations they should stay home and cook and clean and wear burkas and not work. It's pointless.

[Hkizzle]

In the VAST MAJORITY of human cultures!?!? Whaaat? You mean like in 20 places tops? There is still an entire planet that does not adhere to that.

 

What can I say, move to Saudi Arabia then.

 

For the better part of the Christian world monogamy is the way of life, but even within our world there are still a good sector of the population that adheres to swinger culture. You don't need to be monogamous, you need to be with those people. Problem solved.

 

Trying to convince the rest of the population that monogamy is not the way to go seems like trying to tell the female populations of progressive first world nations they should stay home and cook and clean and wear burkas and not work. It's pointless.

 

Cultures throughout human history........

 

When did I say monogamy isn't the way to go? I think many people don't understand the difference between me saying it's ok and a scientific truth. I even said in the title of the thread there's no excuse for cheating. I just said many people obviously can't stick to the rules of mongamy because there's a battle between their biology and the rules set in a monogamous society.

 

They fail to stay faithful not because they're been taught to cheat, but rather their biology overcomes their morality.

[sxyNYCcpl]

They fail to stay faithful not because they're been taught to cheat, but rather their biology overcomes their morality.

 

Could it be that our teachings (that monogamy is the only acceptable way) and our biology (that monogamy is unnatural) are incompatible with each other? And if that's the case, then what?

[Hkizzle]

Could it be that our teachings (that monogamy is the only acceptable way) and our biology (that monogamy is unnatural) are incompatible with each other? And if that's the case, then what?

 

Well what inspired this thread was two other threads where two people came here for help, admitted they cheated, said they felt guilty and wanted to change.

 

Then a bunch of people replied and didn't really give advice, just judged them, said they were selfish people and didn't deserve the person they cheated on in their lives.

 

Whilst it's true what they did is wrong. I think some people here have a very judgemental view, probably because some of them have been cheated on, and partly because some of them don't understand the subject fully so have swung from naive to cynical. But I think it's wrong that they flame someone that came here for help.

 

The raw primal nature of a human being is very selfish. Just look at how selfish kids are and how parents have to teach them constantly from a young age what's wrong.

 

Understanding what human nature is really like isn't a justification of the bad things in human nature. It simply allows you to develop a more balanced view so you don't make extreme judgements without understanding the subject fully.

 

Certainly whilst responsibility should reside on the shoulders of someone that cheats. Doesn't it seem strange that someone cheats and at the same time feels bad about it? Shows two different driving mechanism, a biological one that makes them lose control, and then a social one that makes them feel guilty afterwards.

 

You can teach people such as the ones in the two threads how to deal with their problem, how to develope better strategies on how to control their cheating instincts. But to judge them and call them bad people helps no one. They already knew what they did was wrong which is why they can here for help and advice.

[whichwayisup]

I haven't read much of this thread but ..

 

IT IS STILL A CHOICE. A thought process has to happen in order for "it" to happen. An affair is an ongoing choice.

 

People are judged for cheating

 

People are judged for everything and anything. All over the World.

[Trialbyfire]

Yep, everyone is judgemental including the OP judging the people judging the cheaters.

 

The OP is flaming the people who came to LS for help, from the trauma of being cheated on. While he may not understand what that feels like, he does need a more balanced approach, than to try to justify cheating as a biological drive.

[Hkizzle]

Yep, everyone is judgemental including the OP judging the people judging the cheaters.

 

The OP is flaming the people who came to LS for help, from the trauma of being cheated on. While he may not understand what that feels like, he does need a more balanced approach, than to try to justify cheating as a biological drive.

 

Right, so lets say someone's discriminating against a gay person and I said that person's being a dick, I'm being judgemental too?

 

There's a difference between judging someone that shows no remorse and someone that already said they are feeling bad and coming for help.

 

Get off your high horse. I'm well aware what it's like being cheated on, because a good friend did it to me of all people. That doesn't mean it's ok to become the very thing you despise.

 

Since you're obviously Christian, it's funny how you are so quick to judge. You're the type that loves to cast the first stone, just like the self righteous Pharisees in the bible, and worst of all too blind to see it in yourself.

[butcher's hook]

Well what inspired this thread was two other threads where two people came here for help, admitted they cheated, said they felt guilty and wanted to change.

 

Then a bunch of people replied and didn't really give advice, just judged them, said they were selfish people and didn't deserve the person they cheated on in their lives.

 

Whilst it's true what they did is wrong. I think some people here have a very judgemental view, probably because some of them have been cheated on, and partly because some of them don't understand the subject fully so have swung from naive to cynical. But I think it's wrong that they flame someone that came here for help.

 

The raw primal nature of a human being is very selfish. Just look at how selfish kids are and how parents have to teach them constantly from a young age what's wrong.

 

Understanding what human nature is really like isn't a justification of the bad things in human nature. It simply allows you to develop a more balanced view so you don't make extreme judgments without understanding the subject fully

 

If the raw primal instinct in us tells us that we should cheat, then explain why so many couples after they cheat stay in their marriages? You would think that after cheating people would realize that they are better off being single since monogamy is clearly what they don't want. Yet even when faced with a chance to walk away and live their lives completely "commitment free" they stay in their marriages.

 

I'm sorry but cheating is psychological it is not biological. Nothing instinctually in us tells us we need to cheat, our own putrid heads tell us we should, out of boredom and out of selfishness and out of wanting to have our cakes and eating it too and out of self destruction.

[Trialbyfire]

Right, so lets say someone's discriminating against a gay person and I said that person's being a dick, I'm being judgemental too?

People can't help being gay but people can choose not to cheat.

 

There's a difference between judging someone that shows no remorse and someone that already said they are feeling bad and coming for help.

 

Get off your high horse. I'm well aware what it's like being cheated on, because a good friend did it to me of all people. That doesn't mean it's ok to become the very thing you despise.

Do you mean like you're doing? Don't you see your own hypocrisy?

 

Since you're obviously Christian, it's funny how you are so quick to judge. You're the type that loves to cast the first stone, just like the self righteous Pharisees in the bible, and worst of all too blind to see it in yourself.

You've got poor judgement. I'm not religious.

[Hkizzle]

 

The argument still stands from a creationists perspective. God gave us a brain. He also gave us a set of rules for social behaviour. Lust is a sin and so is greed.

 

You say so many hypocritical and conflicting things you don't even know where you stand. That's the true sign of a messed up person, when they say all sorts of things in a thread that contradict each other and flip flop to support their opinions.

 

You're just like the Pharisees in the bible. I rest my case.

[Hkizzle]

If the raw primal instinct in us tells us that we should cheat, then explain why so many couples after they cheat stay in their marriages? You would think that after cheating people would realize that they are better off being single since monogamy is clearly what they don't want. Yet even when faced with a chance to walk away and live their lives completely "commitment free" they stay in their marriages.

 

I'm sorry but cheating is psychological it is not biological. Nothing instinctually in us tells us we need to cheat, our own putrid heads tell us we should, out of boredom and out of selfishness and out of wanting to have our cakes and eating it too and out of self destruction.

 

You need to read The Red Queen: Sex and the evolution of human nature.

 

It outlines all the different strategies humans have in mating and why they exist.

 

The asnwer to your question is simple......security. Yes it's selfish, they want the security of a steady partner and at the same time when the novelty of new sexual experiences.

 

Again I never said it was right, I was just getting at the reasoning why it even exists in the first place.

 

Would you say hunger is biological or psychological? Sexuality is one of the most primitive things in human nature, that's why so many people have relationship problems. It's not just conscious or clear cut or so many people wouldn't be faced with issues.

[Trialbyfire]

You say so many hypocritical and conflicting things you don't even know where you stand. That's the true sign of a messed up person, when they say all sorts of things in a thread that contradict each other and flip flop to support their opinions.

Why didn't you include the rest of that post, where I gave you answers from two perspectives, one religious, the other not. It's called being able to see more than one side of the picture.

 

If that makes me a flip flopper, what does that make you, the person who deems himself capable of being non-judgemental due to the "ability" to higher reasoning, throws up a thread he can't back up with any sound reasoning or proof, then spouts judgementalism about other members at the tail end, as to the "moral" of his weak thread?

[Hkizzle]

Why didn't you include the rest of that post, where I gave you answers from two perspectives, one religious, the other not. It's called being able to see more than one side of the picture.

 

If that makes me a flip flopper, what does that make you, the person who deems himself capable of being non-judgemental due to the "ability" to higher reasoning, throws up a thread he can't back up with any sound reasoning or proof, then spouts judgementalism about other members at the tail end, as to the "moral" of his weak thread?

 

You don't understand evolution. You've proven that you have no knowledge of it from your responses about how you don't understand why salmon can't inherit maps in their brains. I can provide links with all the proof and sound reasoning like in the other thread about players and you still won't accpet it.

 

Why? You're stubborn and think your opinions are right even when proven wrong.

 

The key point is. You think you're a good person, and the cheaters are bad bad people. On the other hand I think a person that flames others who come here for are remorseful and come here for help, like you is as bad if not worse than the very people you judge.

 

You can pull me down with you. But that still makes you a bad person.

[Trialbyfire]

You don't understand evolution. You've proven that you have no knowledge of it from your responses about how you don't understand why salmon can't inherit maps in their brains.

Let's try the salmon thing again. If the maps aren't inherited, who or what teaches salmon how to migrate?

 

The key point is. You think you're a good person, and the cheaters are bad bad people. On the other hand I think a person that flames others like you is as bad as the very people you judge.

 

You can pull me down with you. But that still makes you a bad person.

You've openly stated that this thread is to flame others. Sheer hypocrisy.

[Hkizzle]

Let's try the salmon thing again. If the maps aren't inherited, who or what teaches salmon how to migrate?

 

You've openly stated that this thread is to flame others. Sheer hypocrisy.

 

You're like a 5 year old that doesn't understand a simple concept. No one teaches them, think of a hard drive on a computer that can automaticlly register what you imprint on it. Instinct is different from LEARNED behavior.

 

Just like Cheating is bad is a learned information. Lust itself is instinctive.

 

I already said, drag me down all you like. I'm flaming you only. I don't like what you stand for and what you represent. Self righteous hypocrisy when you're clearly not a nice person.

[Trialbyfire]

You're like a 5 year old that doesn't understand a simple concept. No one teaches them, think of a hard drive on a computer that can automaticlly register what you imprint on it. Instinct is different from LEARNED behavior.

Well DUH!!! It's inherited, thus imprinted! It's imprinted from learned behaviour, just like it's possible that humans can learn to be monogamous and have it evolve to the level of instinctual. That was the entire basis of the argument. I can't help it if you cannot grasp simple logic.

 

Just like Cheating is bad is a learned information. Lust itself is instinctive.

Lust is instinctive. Cheating is a choice.

 

I already said, drag me down all you like. I'm flaming you only. I don't like what you stand for and what you represent. Self righteous hypocrisy when you're clearly not a nice person.

How old are you Hkizzle?

[Hkizzle]

Well DUH!!! It's inherited, thus imprinted! It's imprinted from learned behaviour, just like it's possible that humans can learn to be monogamous and have it evolve to the level of instinctual. That was the entire basis of the argument. I can't help it if you cannot grasp simple logic.

 

Lust is instinctive. Cheating is a choice.

 

How old are you Hkizzle?

 

 

Err no, if humans were naturally monogamous. WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE CHEAT? Espeically when people like you will flame and judge them, and make them feel bad for it?

 

You don't have any understanding of biology or evolution. All you have is a set of incorrect opinions you've formed with inaccurate information.

 

I'm old enough to have seen enough people like you. Self righteous, stubborn, ignorant, and think whatever you think is the holygrail, even when information is provided from experts that show you're wrong.