Saying cheating is biological is not an excuse

[Hkizzle]

Read 'em, wasn't convinced. Anything original to add?

 

Not really, we're in a circular arguement and you'll believe that monogamy is the way human beings are no matter how much information is presented to you.

 

Especially when it's pointed out to you MORE human societies practive polygamy than not.

 

I only get that with creationists, and I realize they only want to selectively accept information that supports their existing point of view, and nothing will sway them from it.

[clv0116]

Define uncontrolled........

 

 

One example would be a large group of humans who just have sex within the group without any pattern and then communally raise the young without regard to whose is which.

 

Not likely to happen, not likely to survive in the long term.

 

It's also interesting that there are recent discoveries using various techniques such as functional brain scanning that discovered specific structures within the human brain that are involved in promoting long term reproductive bonding. Pretty low level wetware wiring there.

 

The paper I glanced at found 3 distinct structures, each one involved with differing durations of bonding and all the durations were roughly comparable to milestones in child development.

 

One structure activated and endured about the time it would take to see a pregnant woman though to childbirth. A second kicked in and lasted about long enough for a child to be minimally equipped to survive, 4-6 years. A third lasted an indeterminate length of time, at least 12 years and more like 15, which is functionally adulthood in a non technological society.

[clv0116]

Not really, we're in a circular arguement and you'll believe that monogamy is the way human beings are no matter how much information is presented to you.

 

I believe monogamy and other forms of mating bonds are biological in their origins. Read what I wrote - I said it's ALL biology, even promiscuity.

 

 

 

Especially when it's pointed out to you MORE human societies practive polygamy than not.

 

Polygamy is not promiscuity.

 

 

 

I only get that with creationists ...

 

I guess you can't say that any more.

[Hkizzle]

 

Polygamy is not promiscuity.

 

 

 

No,it's society's artificial way of addressing a biological desire to find multiple partners.

[clv0116]

No,it's society's artificial way of addressing a biological desire to find multiple partners.

 

No, it's biology expressing a search for an optimal reproductive strategy.

[Hkizzle]

No, it's biology expressing a search for an optimal reproductive strategy.

 

Which is to do it with as many partners as possible, whilst keeping tabs on high % success rate reproduction.

 

Hence why people have steady partners and still go out and try and sneak one in.

[clv0116]

Which is to do it with as many partners as possible, whilst keeping tabs on high % success rate reproduction.

 

The concept of durable mating bonds exists because this is a proven way for humans to successfully reproduce. It is the predominate method because it is the MOST successful. Other methods exist because they are successful enough, even though in many cases they depend on the majority case.

 

I'm not arguing that cheating is not biological. I'm arguing that monogamy, concept and practice, as a subset of "durable mating bonds" and exists for biological reasons. You seem stuck in some either-or mindset.

 

Also, the whole concept that monogamy is a purely social construct is probably a branch of the "SSSD" line of thinking, or religion, whichever you prefer, wherein social "scientists" are dead set on proving humans are essentially a tabla rasa at birth and social conditioning makes us what we are.

 

 

SSSD is horsesh*t, not to put too fine a point on it.

[utterer of lies]

So you have proof of this society where there were no families, or is it based on faith?

 

No families...what? Do you even read the posts you are responding to?

[Hkizzle]

So since you and I seem to agree, then saying "it's biology" is just an excuse to get away with cheating since cheating involves not only the urge which is biologically driven but also the conscious decision to betray someone's trust.

 

I never said cheating is biological is meant to be an excuse. In fact I've said time and time again throughtout that it's not and never should be an excuse.

 

However, people that think cheating is wrong seem to be unable to digest the concept that it's biological.

 

Part of the reason is because they think that would then make it an excuse, and partly because they think humans are naturally good.

 

Humans are not naturally good. Humans are just animals, and the only thing that seperates us from other animals is out ability to learn to do good, to learn moral constructs and rules.

 

We therefore learn not to do evil. Most of our natural instincts are actually selfish.

[Hkizzle]

I'm not arguing that cheating is not biological. I'm arguing that monogamy, concept and practice, as a subset of "durable mating bonds" and exists for biological reasons. You seem stuck in some either-or mindset.

 

I'm not stuck in either or mindset. I'm just in a, you're wrong and don't provide a decent arguement mindset.

[clv0116]

I'm not stuck in either or mindset. I'm just in a, you're wrong and don't provide a decent arguement mindset.

 

Mating behaviors like a trend toward parental bonding and a tendency for a minority to opportunistically cheat all come from biology, to deny it is just silly. If not, explain the distinct structures in human brains that PROMOTE BONDING I discussed above. That's clearly biology programming parents to bond.

[Hkizzle]

Mating behaviors like a trend toward parental bonding and a tendency for a minority to opportunistically cheat all come from biology, to deny it is just silly. If not, explain the distinct structures in human brains that PROMOTE BONDING I discussed above. That's clearly biology programming parents to bond.

 

You mean the bonding THAT LASTS TWO YEARS for most people?

 

Yeah I'm well aware of it. That if all things proves utterer of lies points. That we're not designed for lifetime monogamy, and designed for serial short term ones. Once a kid is old enough the tribe will take care of it.

[Hkizzle]

Again you neglect to look at the information in a way that disproves your theory.

 

See, the chemicals that assist human pair bonding disappear after about 2 years, and that's why many marriages and relationships fail after a few more despite people attempting to make them work.

 

Marriages used to last longer because of social pressures to make them last. Primarily men were expected to take care of the woman and family, and women were financially dependent on the male.

 

Once women weren't dependent on the male anymore many women now longer had to put up with their awful husbands who they no longer felt in love with, especially because the pair bonding was no longer there.

[clv0116]

See, the chemicals that assist human pair bonding disappear after about 2 years, and that's why many marriages and relationships fail after a few more despite people attempting to make them work.

 

That's not what the latest, functional brain scan research, shows. See my other post for details, the FIRST in the series dies off after about long enough to ensure pregnancy and birth.

[Hkizzle]

That's not what the latest, functional brain scan research, shows. See my other post for details, the FIRST in the series dies off after about long enough to ensure pregnancy and birth.

 

I've read articles on the latest brain scan research which shows about 10% of couples can have chemically assisted life long pair bonding. You're really good at SELECTIVELY picking out information.

[2sure]

Sex , our sex drive, even the need for conquests or validation are all biological.

 

But cheating more frequently than not, has little to do with sex.

[Hkizzle]

I disagree that it's a biological issue when someone is self centered. We all have that little voice inside of us (it's called a conscience) which tells us when we are about to do wrong. Some of us listen to it, not because of our genetic makeup, but because of how we view the world and those around us. Some view the world as their oyster with their pleasures to be taken at their whim, regardless who gets hurt. Then there are those who think outside of their own head and take other people's feelings into consideration when making a decision.

 

It's called integrity, and integrity is NOT biologically driven. It's a lifestyle choice.

 

The things that trigger our conscience, and our sense of integrity, what we see as right or wrong is determined by social conditioning.

 

A very simply example can be seen with say the Taliban and Al Qaeda. If you tell someone that they are fighting for God, and will go to heaven, they won't even feel guilt about blowing up innocent people.

 

We however will.

[lkjh]

Hizzle, by your standard everything would be biological including our ability to think and rationalize. You can not just pick and choose what you want to be biological.

 

On a side note you still haven't given any explanation or real scientific proof that it is biological.

[Hkizzle]

Sometimes. I worked with a man who was a probation officer, and the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. One son was a state trooper. The other was a meth head whose last offense was breaking into the cabin of a long time family friend to loot for items to sell for drug money.

 

'Splain that one.

 

Lol, the reason is clearly the meth.

 

Sometimes one bad decision starts an addition. I've even seen pics of twins where one twin took up drugs and one didn't and they looked very different.

[Hkizzle]

Hizzle, by your standard everything would be biological including our ability to think and rationalize. .

 

WTF!? The whole time I've said our ability to think and rationalize is free of biology, and we can use it to supress our biology. I've said it probably 10 times throughout this thread.

 

WTF you smoking?

 

Your problem is you pick and choose. You quoted a study. I've seen that study on an article. It says only 10% of people can pair bond for a lifetime. 90% of people lose pair bonding ability after a few years, so clearly you shot yourself down. You problem might be you smoke some sort of drug, especially if you missed me saying something 10 times on this thread.

[lkjh]

WTF!? The whole time I've said our ability to think and rationalize is free of biology, and we can use it to supress our biology. I've said it probably 10 times throughout this thread.

 

WTF you smoking?

 

Your problem is you pick and choose. You quoted a study. I've seen that study on an article. It says only 10% of people can pair bond for a lifetime. 90% of people lose pair bonding ability after a few years, so clearly you shot yourself down. You problem might be you smoke some sort of drug, especially if you missed me saying something 10 times on this thread.

 

I did not quote a study, everything I have written is from my own studies and education. Also, the thing you don't seem to realize is that our ability to think does not suppress our biology, our ability to think is our biology.

 

Our ability to think has a direct relationship with our genetics and unlike your theory that has actually been proven.

[Hkizzle]

I did not quote a study, everything I have written is from my own studies and education. Also, the thing you don't seem to realize is that our ability to think does not suppress our biology, our ability to think is our biology.

 

Our ability to think has a direct relationship with our genetics and unlike your theory that has actually been proven.

 

Sorry, mixed you up with CLV0116. Clearly I'm the one smoking something.

 

Our ability to think is part of our biology, but humans are unique amongst animals in that we can reason past our primal urges. Dieting is such an example.

 

Higher reasoning, and primal biological urges are two different things. Just like hunger is a primal biological urge and I can control the desire to eat never the less.

[Hkizzle]

Oh, there was more in his past, but I don't have his criminal history at my fingertips any more. The kid was just bent on doing wrong, even before the drugs.

 

Also, I have many sisters, all of them different, but all kind in their dealings with others. Except for one. She says things with the clear intent to hurt people and bring them down. When she was bemoaning the fact that she hadn't many friends, I tried to explain to her how, when you try to get a point across, it is often how you say it that matters. Her response? "I'm not gonna kiss anyone's a55!"

 

Behaviors are not programmed by 1 gene but by multiple genes. Within one family there could be a big difference in siblings, when looking at behavior of a species though individual differences will even out.

[Hkizzle]

LKJH, I read a great quote on Bloomberg today whilst trading. It's from a Harvard Biology professor and pretty much directed to you in terms of our debate. It was debating human aggression and violence but would easily be applied to human lust, and indeed biologists would:

 

Lundborg (interviewer): If we're hardwired for aggression isn't it the function of culture to short circuit that?

 

Wrangham (professor): Absolutely. Dangerous behaviors lie in the human heart and we need all sorts of institutions and education systems in place to avoid them.

The great fear of a lot of people have is that whenever you produce an arguement in biology, you're implying some sort of biological determinism, that you cannot escape from these behaviors. My feeling is the opposite. you ignore brutality at your peril.

 

 

I'm in the same camp at Wrangham. See, when people are against cheating it's generally because they cannot comprehend that we're just savages, or they think we would use it as an excuse. The contrary is true, it's only when you realize the brutality of man, that self control is even more important.

[Hkizzle]

I'm in the same camp at Wrangham. See, when people are against cheating it's generally because they cannot comprehend that we're just savages, or they think we would use it as an excuse. The contrary is true, it's only when you realize the brutality of man, that self control is even more important.

 

Sorry, I meant "people against the idea that cheating is biological"