Questions for both sides

[Lizzie60]

Several studies found this to be true. The income of about 60% of divorcing father's goes up. I am sure some of that is due to the deadbeat dad's who don't pay anything at. And they showed that the income of of women typically goes down. I am sure this includes the fact that women usually having lower paying jobs, not always providing insurance or day care assistance. I am sure there are many factors that contribute to these trends.

 

Here in Canada.. there is no such thing as a working dad who doesn't pay support.. the alimony is deducted right from the paycheck if they don't pay....

[bentnotbroken]

Here in Canada.. there is no such thing as a working dad who doesn't pay support.. the alimony is deducted right from the paycheck if they don't pay....

 

 

That would be a great thing here in the US. I even personally know of 2 deadbeat moms. Some times the child support is deducted from the paycheck, most of the times it's not. Sad because the ones who suffer the most are the kids.

[Lizzie60]

That would be a great thing here in the US. I even personally know of 2 deadbeat moms. Some times the child support is deducted from the paycheck, most of the times it's not. Sad because the ones who suffer the most are the kids.[/QUOTE]

 

Totally agree.. these guys are scumbags...

[jwi71]

I didn't read the whole thread.. just the first posts.. but this caught my attention:

 

Just to clarify the one point I was trying to make, again in no judgment. OW tend to be the one consider settling, taking "leftover's".

 

I think the one who is settling is the W... because once her H tastes the excitement of the A... it will never stop... he will always crave the sex, the attention, the excitement, the 'newness', the sexual rush... etc...

 

The OW (in my case anyway and I'm sure in many other cases as well) doesn't have to live with the 'doubts', the pain, etc... she sees him once in a while.. have fun.. then she can go back to her life.. until she sees him again.. no crap, no pain, no nothing.. just the fun part..

 

So.. who's settling.. who gets the 'leftover'... methink it's the W..

 

The only problem I have with the logic here Lizzie is that the W doesn't know the H is straying. She has, due to the WS lying and gaslighting, an image that he is wholly hers. In her mind, she isnt settling at all...she's got the whole shebang.

 

I would say the OP is the one accepting less. This person KNOWS the MM/MW goes home to another...one he goes greats lengths to hide his A from. And, in many ways, the WS lies and deceives to PROTECT what he has with BS...a protection not extended to the WS. A courtesy not extended to the WS. The WS, rarely, if ever enjoys protection to prevent him/her from hurt...but how many times does the WS say "I couldnt do that to him or her" (referring to spouse). Usually, the lies are told to protect the BS and the marriage...not the AP...thrown under the bus anyone?

 

And yes...the only person fully "happy" is the WS. Spot on.

[Lizzie60]

I understand what you're saying.. but in a LOT of cases, the W knows that her H is straying.. at least she strongly doubt him.. and most of the time, her gut feeling is right.. so she is settling.. I'm not saying that in a bad way... I'm just saying.. she could be settling for a lot of reasons, kids (mainly)... and those same kids are often the reason why the H doesn't leave his W...

[fooled once]

I haven't (and probably won't) read the whole thread.

 

I got lost after how the Betrayed Spouse/Wife should look in a mirror regarding low self esteem cause they stay with the cheating man. This must be coming from an OW who wants the marriage to end so SHE can grab up the cheating man

 

Many women whose husband's cheated on them DON'T divorce (and many DO divorce) because of the HISTORY they have with these men. History which may include kids. Histry that probably includes money, property, material possessions, etc. History that includes FAMILY. I guess the OP wants the MM to dump all that for the good time roll in the hay girl he started seeing *sigh* Doesn't work that way.

 

And Lizzie, how do you know LOTS of women know their husbands are cheating??

[NoIDidn't]

I understand what you're saying.. but in a LOT of cases, the W knows that her H is straying.. at least she strongly doubt him.. and most of the time, her gut feeling is right.. so she is settling.. I'm not saying that in a bad way... I'm just saying.. she could be settling for a lot of reasons, kids (mainly)... and those same kids are often the reason why the H doesn't leave his W...

 

I think you are way off on the reasons she might avoid digging deeper to find out if her gut is right.

 

I won't list some of the many reasons because I doubt you could relate to most of them.

 

And its not settling. There is a such thing as choosing the right time for an argument of that magnitude. Plus, the guy is probably lying to her when she asks anyway.

[Lizzie60]

I haven't (and probably won't) read the whole thread.

 

I got lost after how the Betrayed Spouse/Wife should look in a mirror regarding low self esteem cause they stay with the cheating man. This must be coming from an OW who wants the marriage to end so SHE can grab up the cheating man

 

Many women whose husband's cheated on them DON'T divorce (and many DO divorce) because of the HISTORY they have with these men. History which may include kids. Histry that probably includes money, property, material possessions, etc. History that includes FAMILY. I guess the OP wants the MM to dump all that for the good time roll in the hay girl he started seeing *sigh* Doesn't work that way.

 

And Lizzie, how do you know LOTS of women know their husbands are cheating??

 

My-my...just read all the threads about W/gf.. who have the feeling or know their H are cheating.. if they have a doubt.. something is wrong.

[Sanafa]

Well didn't this become a cluster "f...."

 

I have had more people think they know my feelings/opinions and thoughts here than I have ever experienced.

 

And to be really honest, I find it just as nieve and silly for those sitting ASSUMING that all MM and OW are the same.

 

Yes, I know many men in a half assed marriage ( sorry ladies, he isn't going to tell ya that) but it is the truth simply because the cost of divorce, not being with the children, family is more important than being happy.

 

Say whatever you want, I am bitter, yada yada... I am not even speaking regarding my MM or our situation but for everyone that says the OW woman is living a pipe dream there are just as many on the other side.

 

Let's face it, if he was straying, things were strained long before it isn't going to take much to improve relations or look like your trying.

 

I don't care what side of the fence you are on, really I don't..... but it's crazy to listen to all these posts suggesting one, that they can even remotely know who/what I am thinking and two I find it just as naive that BS think they were fooled once, some for years with multiple affairs and all of a sudden they will "know" if it's happening again

 

No offense, but I think everyone ( including myself) has to shake their head and understand that none of us know crap.

 

If a MM/MW wants to cheat they will.... and if their initial commitment/vow to the W/H wasn't enough to stop them, neither will " I am sorry, will never do it again".

 

Good lord, I am done, because what really did start as pages of fair and mature discussion has turned into a bunch of children wanting to be right and that isn't just the OW in the thread... it's everyone.

[silktricks]

Well didn't this become a cluster "f...."

 

I have had more people think they know my feelings/opinions and thoughts here than I have ever experienced.

 

And to be really honest, I find it just as nieve and silly for those sitting ASSUMING that all MM and OW are the same.

 

Yes, I know many men in a half assed marriage ( sorry ladies, he isn't going to tell ya that) but it is the truth simply because the cost of divorce, not being with the children, family is more important than being happy.

 

Say whatever you want, I am bitter, yada yada... I am not even speaking regarding my MM or our situation but for everyone that says the OW woman is living a pipe dream there are just as many on the other side.

 

Let's face it, if he was straying, things were strained long before it isn't going to take much to improve relations or look like your trying.

 

I don't care what side of the fence you are on, really I don't..... but it's crazy to listen to all these posts suggesting one, that they can even remotely know who/what I am thinking and two I find it just as naive that BS think they were fooled once, some for years with multiple affairs and all of a sudden they will "know" if it's happening again

 

No offense, but I think everyone ( including myself) has to shake their head and understand that none of us know crap.

 

If a MM/MW wants to cheat they will.... and if their initial commitment/vow to the W/H wasn't enough to stop them, neither will " I am sorry, will never do it again".

 

Good lord, I am done, because what really did start as pages of fair and mature discussion has turned into a bunch of children wanting to be right and that isn't just the OW in the thread... it's everyone.

IMO most of this thread has been quite civilized.

[fooled once]

Not really sure why you posted this if you seemingly only wanted posters to agree with you and say BS's are no better than a OW and that so many married women have no idea how how easily their husbands could have an affair.

[jwi71]

And to be really honest, I find it just as nieve and silly for those sitting ASSUMING that all MM and OW are the same.

 

Generalities never apply to specifics...hence the absurdity of this thread. Oh, I know...you wont divulge the specifics to your situation and that's your choice...but in choosing that you allow this thread to occur and go south. Again, I would say divulge you situation to really benefit from the decades of experience on this board...not, no PhDs, just poor souls who have endured this and just might be farther along the healing path than yourself.

 

Let's face it, if he was straying, things were strained long before it isn't going to take much to improve relations or look like your trying.

 

That's actually NOT true and is an excuse proffered by dumped OW/OM. Cheaters want affairs not divorces - look at some of the extremes they go to hide said OM/OW. If they wanted divorces...they would be so. And, there are perfectly happy men and women in perfectly fulfilling marriages having affairs. Happens every day. We call them cake eaters.

 

Good lord, I am done, because what really did start as pages of fair and mature discussion has turned into a bunch of children wanting to be right and that isn't just the OW in the thread... it's everyone.

 

Then your expectations and understanding are seriously off the mark. How can you expect to blithely come in and speak as if this issue isnt extraordinarily painful and polarizing on a forum full of people in pain because of what you speak? What did you expect to happen by spouting off generalities and vagueness and expect any different in an outcome?

 

Good lord...

[Impudent Oyster]

Well didn't this become a cluster "f...."

 

I have had more people think they know my feelings/opinions and thoughts here than I have ever experienced.

 

And to be really honest, I find it just as nieve and silly for those sitting ASSUMING that all MM and OW are the same.

 

Yes, I know many men in a half assed marriage ( sorry ladies, he isn't going to tell ya that) but it is the truth simply because the cost of divorce, not being with the children, family is more important than being happy.

 

Say whatever you want, I am bitter, yada yada... I am not even speaking regarding my MM or our situation but for everyone that says the OW woman is living a pipe dream there are just as many on the other side.

 

Let's face it, if he was straying, things were strained long before it isn't going to take much to improve relations or look like your trying.

 

I don't care what side of the fence you are on, really I don't..... but it's crazy to listen to all these posts suggesting one, that they can even remotely know who/what I am thinking and two I find it just as naive that BS think they were fooled once, some for years with multiple affairs and all of a sudden they will "know" if it's happening again

 

No offense, but I think everyone ( including myself) has to shake their head and understand that none of us know crap.

 

If a MM/MW wants to cheat they will.... and if their initial commitment/vow to the W/H wasn't enough to stop them, neither will " I am sorry, will never do it again".

 

Good lord, I am done, because what really did start as pages of fair and mature discussion has turned into a bunch of children wanting to be right and that isn't just the OW in the thread... it's everyone.

 

In other words, "I didn't get the responses I wanted so I'm out of here".

 

.

[Impudent Oyster]

..

 

 

That's actually not true and is an excuse proffered by dumped ow/om. Cheaters want affairs not divorces - look at some of the extremes they go to hide said om/ow. If they wanted divorces...they would be so. And, there are perfectly happy men and women in perfectly fulfilling marriages having affairs. Happens every day. We call them cake eaters.

.

 

......amen.

[Sanafa]

 

 

 

That's actually NOT true and is an excuse proffered by dumped OW/OM. Cheaters want affairs not divorces - look at some of the extremes they go to hide said OM/OW. If they wanted divorces...they would be so. And, there are perfectly happy men and women in perfectly fulfilling marriages having affairs. Happens every day. We call them cake eaters.

 

Always the excuse, again not ALL go to the extremes you seem to think and they might not want a divorce but your instance of them being in perfectly fulfilling marriages yet having full blown emotional/physical affairs is just as naive. And the real truth.... no one really knows if they are with a cake eater.... they get pretty good at getting the chocolate.

 

That is the problem, you assume you are right...... no better or different than I or any other woman thinking they are right.

 

 

Then your expectations and understanding are seriously off the mark. How can you expect to blithely come in and speak as if this issue isnt extraordinarily painful and polarizing on a forum full of people in pain because of what you speak? What did you expect to happen by spouting off generalities and vagueness and expect any different in an outcome?

 

I actually seen several posts from SEVERAL in both categories who were fine with the questions...... not everyone has to be right and knock each other to make a point....right you missed that, just read the first 5 or 6 pages:rolleyes:

 

As far as telling you "my" story... why the last 5 or 6 pages you have assumed you know it, so just go with it;)

[Sanafa]

In other words, "I didn't get the responses I wanted so I'm out of here".

 

.

 

Amazing how you turn things around. I was more than happy to hear the adults talk about their opinions, very obvious early on...but those who just want to spew what they "think" they know, I can't be bothered.

 

How about this... you live in your fantasy of the BS loving you so much they would never break their commitment again....and I will live in mine.

[jwi71]

Always the excuse, again not ALL go to the extremes you seem to think and they might not want a divorce but your instance of them being in perfectly fulfilling marriages yet having full blown emotional/physical affairs is just as naive. And the real truth.... no one really knows if they are with a cake eater.... they get pretty good at getting the chocolate.

 

I didn't say ALL go to extremes nor did I "insist" that all were in happy marriages. I simply said there are WS who are HAPPY with their marriage and cheat. If you wish to disagree then do so but try and act like an adult.

 

That is the problem, you assume you are right...... no better or different than I or any other woman thinking they are right.

 

How is this a problem? Would it be a problem if what I assume is right coincides with what YOU assume is right? Seems like the issue arises because you don't like an opposing view to YOURS. Then its "wrong"

 

 

I actually seen several posts from SEVERAL in both categories who were fine with the questions...... not everyone has to be right and knock each other to make a point....right you missed that, just read the first 5 or 6 pages:rolleyes:

 

I think you missed my point. When you strike a tone in a forum full of people in pain you WILL get heated responses. I am somewhat surprised that YOU were surprised by that. Seemed an likely outcome to me...

 

As far as telling you "my" story... why the last 5 or 6 pages you have assumed you know it, so just go with it;)

 

I'm not convinced I am the one making assumptions. I nothing of your story. And since, as you say its already out there...then there is nothing preventing you from congealing it into a cohesive whole so we can try and help you.

 

And actually that's my problem. You're not looking for help. You're out to pick a fight and nitpick semantics. Good luck with that.

[Impudent Oyster]

.

How about this... you live in your fantasy of the BS loving you so much they would never break their commitment again....and I will live in mine.

 

What is your fantasy again?

 

That the MM really and truly loves you but is being coerced into staying married by his wife who is jumping through hoops to keep him?

 

That's quite a fantasy alright.

 

BTW, you have no idea of what my "fantasy" is. For your information, I know full well that my husband could be unfaithful again, I'm not naive. If I divorced my husband and remarried, that man could be unfaithful too. A reconciled BS has to believe that they realize what a stupid mistake they made and what they risked losing, and that they won't be that stupid again. People do learn from their mistakes. That's all you can do if you're going to be in a relationship with anyone.

 

You know very little about why people have affairs, you might want to listen and learn. It has NOTHING to do with how much someone loves someone.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

 

 

 

 

Always the excuse, again not ALL go to the extremes you seem to think and they might not want a divorce but your instance of them being in perfectly fulfilling marriages yet having full blown emotional/physical affairs is just as naive. And the real truth.... no one really knows if they are with a cake eater.... they get pretty good at getting the chocolate.

 

That is the problem, you assume you are right...... no better or different than I or any other woman thinking they are right.

 

.

 

 

Actually, JW IS right about this. There are many people in perfectly happy fulfilling marriages who have affairs. Those are the ones who don't leave, which as statistics bear out, is the majority.

 

Again, you don't understand the reasons why people have affairs. You keep insisting it's because their partners aren't keeping them satisfied and happy...guess what, that's not their job.

 

Happiness and fulfillment comes from within, it's unrealistic to expect someone else to provide that to you.

[Impudent Oyster]

What is your fantasy again?

 

That the MM really and truly loves you but is being coerced into staying married by his wife who is jumping through hoops to keep him?

 

That's quite a fantasy alright.

 

BTW, you have no idea of what my "fantasy" is. For your information, I know full well that my husband could be unfaithful again, I'm not naive. If I divorced my husband and remarried, that man could be unfaithful too. A reconciled BS has to believe that they (the WS) realize what a stupid mistake they made and what they risked losing, and that they won't be that stupid again. People do learn from their mistakes. That's all you can do if you're going to be in a relationship with anyone.

 

You know very little about why people have affairs, you might want to listen and learn. It has NOTHING to do with how much someone loves someone.

 

UGH! It drives me crazy that we can't edit our posts here!

 

I just want to clarify by "they" I meant the WS.

[silktricks]

Exactly. I think that this is the case for all couples who reconcile.

 

I think the OP would like to believe that her ex-MM is being coerced and threatened into staying with his wife, and that once the "fog" has lifted, he will realize that he loves her.

 

But really, what else would an OW/OM believe? They have been told for some period of time (and often quite a lengthy period of time) that they are the important one, and the spouse is old news. In my case, the OW was completely convinced that my husband loved her and was going to be with her - otherwise why on earth would she have continued calling and emailing for more than a year after he terminated the affair? She knew that he was going to change his mind and come back to her. She was wrong, of course . I'm not sure why, as he was quite clear to her when he broke it off, but at least in her case, I assume that she had selective hearing and memory. It's much easier to hear and remember "I love you" and "I don't love my wife anymore", than it is to hear and remember "my wife and I are reconnecting and I am going to work on my marriage".

 

D-Day in my case, though, was different as I didn't discover anything - he sat down and told me about it and begged my forgiveness. Sometimes I wonder how differently our last 5 years would have been had he chosen to remain silent. Sometimes I used to wish he hadn't told me, but really I'm glad he did. We worked through some issues that neither of us would probably have faced. The timing sure sucked, though.

 

Anyway, back to the point, no one wants to feel rejected. No one wants to believe they've been used... in many cases the WS has used them knowingly - but (IMO) in most cases I don't believe that it is knowingly. I believe the WS truly believes what they are saying to the OP. It's just that when D-Day comes they have to make decisions. AND they have to face some facts. Facts that before D-Day were only imaginary. It's much easier to say what you are going to do in a specific situation, than it is to face the situation and actually do it. For example - I said I would NEVER forgive someone who cheated on me.... and look how well I followed that imaginary circumstance when it happened in real life.

[Impudent Oyster]

But really, what else would an OW/OM believe? They have been told for some period of time (and often quite a lengthy period of time) that they are the important one, and the spouse is old news. .

 

Oh I agree that they have reason to believe it before d-day, but after when the MP TELLS THE OP that they are staying with the spouse and that they want NC?

 

That's some serious denial to believe that the MP really loves them and is just being duped into staying married.

[Gamine]

And I would venture to guess that the more 'militant' OW who openly live in the excitement and power it instills in them, no matter how misguided, will... one day be 70. Then what?

 

I say that today is an investment in tomorrow.

 

As an aside... some of the OW are genuinely investing in their relationships with married guys today with an expectation of a tomorrow.

 

Some of the other more openly promiscuous ones (who shall remain nameless) are the fuel for psychiatrists. Hurt, abandonment, disappointment, anger. Otherwise, they'd be doing what they're doing with any man... not just married men. Because in the selection of it needing to be a married man lies the underlying discord within.

 

Now, there's my two cents.

[silktricks]

Oh I agree that they have reason to believe it before d-day, but after when the MP TELLS THE OP that they are staying with the spouse and that they want NC?

 

That's some serious denial to believe that the MP really loves them and is just being duped into staying married.

 

But.... there are many cases - including those on love shack - where the WS does exactly that, and after the initial furor dies down at home is right back in the OW's bed (if she'll let him). So it isn't really serious denial in all cases. (though the duped into staying married part does rather stretch the imagination..)

 

Let's face it - there is no single set of circumstances that anyone can point to and say "that's right all the time" - because nothing is solidly consistent from one scenario to another.

 

So... back to the original posting... many of the things that were said could very well be true for some people some of the time. Are they true in her particular case? Who knows - enough time has not gone by yet for the circumstances to reveal themselves. By the time she knows, she may no longer care.

 

The thing is that all of us live on a certain amount of faith all the time. Could my husband cheat again? Well, of course he could. Could I cheat? Of course I could. But I do not believe he will. And he does not believe I will. We actively work on our marriage so that problems are dealt with at the outset. That's really the best we can do. So I'm happy, and he's happy and all is well between us... if anyone wants to think I'm delusional, that's their own business and has nothing to do with my life.

[Sanafa]

Impundent Oyster

 

It's great that you are confident with your reconciliation, you should be otherwise it wouldn't work.

 

What I have a problem with on both sides and will continue is this adage that " it's the norm". You said take a look here, I suggest you do the same.

 

For every marriage that had a somewhat "normal" affair and DDay... there are ten that did not. They are ten that after 2 years or even 5 are still beating each other up, still living in fear and pain of "what if", still questioning if they should stay in the marriage. You call that reconciliation?

 

You think the MM is having a great time banging his head year after year and is doing it for the W? Seriously, if you can't admit that many marriage use the umbrella ( family, money, careers) to remain in tact, I do believe you are just as delusional.

 

And you are one of the low % where the MM tells the wife. Normally, that comes from outside and yes it can be years into the affair. Again, it is impossible to give advice to anyone on a public board when no two situations are ever the same. And sorry, but just as many IC/MC and writers will tell you if there is an affair.....something is broken, regardless of what you want to think.

 

Look at all the WS here, especially after they start to reconcile, I am not saying they aren't responsible for the actions from a result of being unhappy in the house, but they were unhappy in the house and needed an affair to fill the voids, more often than not those are intimacy voids ( not monkey sex like most think).

 

Everyone keeps assuming that I want my MM back..... quiet the opposite. We both knew if things came out in a DDay neither of us would be able to move forward, we talked about it and I bet there are many MM who spoke to the other person ( in our case over 2 weeks) BEFORE committing to the marriage. It is easier and the right thing to do, but does that mean they will work? Who knows - depending on what stat you want anywhere from 30-60% with a whole bunch of variables to boot.

 

Affairs mean a problem and I am not buying anything else, for those that repair, congrats not easy but to think that the guy who lied to day in and day out isn't capable of doing it again and by the way far more likely than someone you may have a relationship with than I am sorry.... by all means, go for it.

 

And again, you are privy to the boards, what is it..... 1 out of 10, maybe 15 that actually go back to the OW as long as a year after the fact.

 

If you want to be accurate, there are several boards and for ever forum that is about surviving there are ten that are about leaving, challenges and plain old divorce.

 

I am thankful for one thing, our DDay was big, but I am really grateful that all three were adults and the drama that I see here is not what I have to live with. An amicable split, as much as any Affair could be, I wish them well and if they don't make it it won't be because of me and it won't be because he has the option to return.